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Date Posted: 09:57:56 04/24/02 Wed
Author: stored
Subject: R1

Religion I


The Philosopher's Corner, (and its varied forums) is for those wishing to debate ideas in an
environment relatively free of personal attacks. This does NOT mean that ideas are not to be
challenged and/or heavily debated. Bringing arguments from another forum to this forum or any
other PC forum totally distorts the original message made, gives a biased slant and is
inappropriate. Standing firm and making one's case on its own merits is the intelligent choice.
Attacking and/or challenging an opinion is fair game.. Attacking someone personally is not.
--Susan

Alternative R1 forum
Benefits: length of posts are basically unlimited, and if webforums break down we'll have a
backup forum. :)








MESSAGES IN THIS FORUM ARE PRESENTED AS NEWEST TO OLDEST.

RonB
In Response To Murray
Monday April 22, 2002 at 19:41

Jesus Christ is what is real and is present in your life if you are his. Like Brother
Lawrence, you can live in his presence and commune with Him any time and any place.

Of course.

The sacraments do not invoke his presence because He is already present. The sacraments
do not and could not possibly make Him more present.

Not according to what Christianity has taught for over 2,000 years. In the Eucharist, Jesus'
Body, the Body he commanded that we eat if we wished for eternal life, is present. Physical
presence. His physical Body nourishes our spiritual lives. Maybe not "more present," but
present in a different way.

Murray
In Response To RonB
Monday April 22, 2002 at 19:27

Jesus Christ is what is real and is present in your life if you are his. Like Brother Lawrence,
you can live in his presence and commune with Him any time and any place. The sacraments
do not invoke his presence because He is already present. The sacraments do not and could
not possibly make Him more present. That is part of what I mean about the tail wagging the
dog. It is wrong to think that the sacraments (tail) have an inherent power or reality within
themselves to invoke his presence (dog) or bring him closer in any way. You can think it to be
true, but you can't make it true by thinking so. The biblical references about hearing the church
and keeping his commandments have nothing to do with sacraments or sacramentalism.

dori
In Response To Ron
Monday April 22, 2002 at 19:17

Gee, it's a shame I have to leave for my music practice when you're around. I will read back
later. Have a nice evening. God bless.

RonB
In Response To Ten Megs
Monday April 22, 2002 at 19:07

1) Priests are trained in human foibles, so they should be able to identify them better in
themselves.

Recognizing human foibles and overcoming them are two different things. You don't put the
sinner in this position in charge of regulating himself. If those in seminaries were doing their
jobs, these pervert priests would have never made it to the priesthood. (And, if the bishops
and cardinals were doing their jobs, once these pervert priests were discovered, they would be
removed.)

Ten Megaton Solution
Monday April 22, 2002 at 19:01

Changing parishes would solve what? What checks would you perform to verify that the new
parish is neither the recipient of a Fondling Father or the source of a Transient Tinkerer?

What checks could you perform?

The only real solution is to recognize that a church that covers up clerical misbehavior is to
leave that Church. And it's all one BIG church.

dori
In Response To CoinkyDink
Monday April 22, 2002 at 18:58

Geezy peezy, loweezy! I thought it was pretty obvious that jail would be part of drumming him
out of the church, and I already addressed that to Ron, if you'd bothered to look back all the
way before putting in your two-cents-worth. I would then change parishes because I would
figure if that was going on, others would have been covering for the creep. Understood?

RonB
In Response To Murray
Monday April 22, 2002 at 18:48

I notice you not refuting my previous.

I'm not even sure what your "previous" was. If speaking of your "dog show" analogy -- it's
your same old screed that I've been responding to over and over... and over. You don't
understand my points about how the sacraments are real -- and, whether we fully understand
them or not, Christ commanded that we "hear the Church" and "keep His commandments."
So, as I've mentioned before, even if the sacraments offered no consolation or feeling of
closeness to God, I would still -- accepting the authority of God's Church -- obey the Church
and take part in them. The fact is that, for me, they do bring me closer to God, and console my
spirit, whether you think so or not.

*Coinkydink
Monday April 22, 2002 at 18:38

"The best solution is to nuke the place and drill through the glass to get the oil." If I weren't a
Quaker and in general a non-violent person, I'd agree with this... it'd probbably be the only
thing that'd work...baby is crying...gotta go. TTFN

*Coinkydink
In Response To Murray
Monday April 22, 2002 at 18:30

"Unfortunately, it takes self dimension to be able to see my point." oooh, don't let the Mods
see this kind of remark...pretty soon you'll have to get your own forum in order to say anything
you want to. You're in trouble now! ;)

Ten Megaton Solution
In Response To Coinkydink
Monday April 22, 2002 at 18:29

I'm not going to enter that argument. I don't have a horse in that race, and I'd be riding a goat
if I started now. I was just offering some advice.

*Coinkydink
In Response To Dori
Monday April 22, 2002 at 18:26

" then I'd work to have him drummed out of the church and go to a different parish." Why
wouldn't you want him arrested and put in jail where he can't hurt anyone else?

*Coinkydink
In Response To Ten Megs
Monday April 22, 2002 at 18:21

My "Oxford Companion to the Bible" says it was published about 95 years after the death of
Jesus. Assuming that John was under 30 then, it still puts him at more than 100 years old. The
style of writing does not fit the style used in the Gospel of John and seems to have almost a
complete disregard for the grammatical structures of his writing in the Greek style. Some think
it was altered to be more Hebrew-like and more Bible-like at a later time... According to the
scholars I've read. Who knows?

Murray
In Response To Sim
Monday April 22, 2002 at 18:20

Sounds good, Sim. Job would be an awesome story to do on stage.

*Coinkydink
In Response To Ya'll
Monday April 22, 2002 at 18:12

"nanny nanny boo boo"? You'd have to shoot me before I'd say something as dumb as that!

Ten Megaton Solution
In Response To Coinkydink
Monday April 22, 2002 at 18:07

One should not make a comment like "John was Senile" without being able to state his age. It's
embarrassing.

But that's only my opinion, of course. (G)

Ten Megaton Solution
In Response To Coinkydink
Monday April 22, 2002 at 18:05

1) Priests are trained in human foibles, so they should be able to identify them better in
themselves.

2) Blaming society for their crimes is a cop out, and they themselves do not accept that excuse
when hearing confession.

*Coinkydink
In Response To Ten Megs
Monday April 22, 2002 at 18:04

Opinions are like noses, everyone has one. They don't necessarily have to be proven as true.
But if one is relying on faith, it would be honest to admit it. Having faith doesn't prove anything
to the one without faith, but it is enough for the believer.

*Coinkydink
In Response To Ten Megs
Monday April 22, 2002 at 18:01

"He cited influence of the culture of the day and the "sex-saturated" society, and said
Americans are bombarded by images of "liberated sex all day long, all evening long." One
point I'd like to make, is that we all have choices about the way we allow society and culture
to effect us. We don't have to read the literature, watch the TV or movies or subscribe to
publications that undermine a simple honest righteous lifestyle. We choose also how to respond
to these influences. I do know from experience that the clergy is under more pressure and
scrutiny than other people. There is tremendous stress when one is responsible for the spiritual
well being of others...Not an excuse for sin, but perhaps a reason for them to be careful and
get help earlier.

Sim, On Gdaug: puter
In Response To Murray
Monday April 22, 2002 at 17:57

Oh, a play??

We had the play "JOB" here at Pineville, Ky for years, then it went to Europe. I've heard it
may be coming back.

It drew people from all over the world to see it at Pineville.

dori
In Response To Ctaj
Monday April 22, 2002 at 17:49

Luckily, the church doesn't ask that of EVERYONE, only those who choose to serve. During
their ordination the candidates are given the chance to "opt out", once they have waived that
right, they are sworn to uphold that vow. If they choose to opt out in the future, they also opt
out of the priesthood.

Ten Megaton Solution
In Response To Coinkydink
Monday April 22, 2002 at 17:45

It is best to be able to support opinions with relevant fact, since contravening fact can prove an
opinion wrong.

*Coinkydink
In Response To Gerry
Monday April 22, 2002 at 17:42

"I asked you to present some evidence for your claim of the senility of John. Do you have it in
front of you yet? I'm waiting to see it." I apologised for saying my opinion about it, since it
upset you. I don't think anyone has to "prove" an opinion and when you Christians become
humble enough to admit that what you're saying is just your opinions, then you won't be asked
to prove it either. ;)

Murray
In Response To Sim
Monday April 22, 2002 at 17:32

Nope, not a movie. Live on stage. You would have like it.

Sim 2
In Response To Murray
Monday April 22, 2002 at 17:27

A production of Daniel

Is that a "Movie"???

I don't "go to the show" any more, so I don't keep up to date on what's being shown.

Sim 2
In Response To Ya'll
Monday April 22, 2002 at 17:24

Ac 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you,
not sparing the flock.

2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false
teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that
bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

2Ti 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

1Co 11:19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be
made manifest among you.

that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

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