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Date Posted: 10:01:18 04/24/02 Wed
Author: stored
Subject: R1

Religion I


The Philosopher's Corner, (and its varied forums) is for those wishing to debate ideas in an
environment relatively free of personal attacks. This does NOT mean that ideas are not to be
challenged and/or heavily debated. Bringing arguments from another forum to this forum or any
other PC forum totally distorts the original message made, gives a biased slant and is
inappropriate. Standing firm and making one's case on its own merits is the intelligent choice.
Attacking and/or challenging an opinion is fair game.. Attacking someone personally is not.
--Susan

Alternative R1 forum
Benefits: length of posts are basically unlimited, and if webforums break down we'll have a
backup forum. :)








MESSAGES IN THIS FORUM ARE PRESENTED AS NEWEST TO OLDEST.

`Ctaj
Tuesday April 23, 2002 at 10:07

I just had another "billiant idea", (don't I always) since Catj and Ten Meg seem to have all
the answers, why don't we send them "over there" to make "peace" in the Middle East.

From today's Investors Business Daily: "On this day in 1936, the Tel Aviv-Jaffa district of
Palestine was wracked by violence again as clashes between Arabs and Jews resulted in 11
killed and 50 wounded."

Given a free hand, the Palestinians would kill all of the Jews. Given a free hand, the Jews
would kill all the Palestinians.

The US Govt owns about 87% of the State of Nevada. Give it to the Jews who want to come
live in peace and prosperity. Those who don't leave can live with the consequences.

Murray
In Response To GerryB
Tuesday April 23, 2002 at 10:06

If tradition were so obviously noticed, it would never creep in. No, tradition is much more
subtle than to merely exist in an outward manifestation such as robes and vestments. The best
example of tradition is in the forming of a traditional interpretation of Bible verses. We
legitimately get a little insight into a verse and think ourselves to totally know what that verse
says. So, every time we read it or quote it to others, we hold to that same interpretation. Or
we can be come too doctrinal in our approach to Christianity and then we make the Bible say
what the doctrine says rather than let it speak for itself. A good example is 'forgiven sinner.' It's
not anywhere in the Bible. Somebody made it up and other people bought it. That is a
tradition.

dori
In Response To Gerry
Tuesday April 23, 2002 at 9:50

Yes, I'm aware that there have been many changes over the years in church customs. Some
for the better and some for the worse. There are scriptural references showing that Jesus
favored celibacy in his followers, BTW, but I'm leaving for work and don't have time to find
them for you. I will look them up tonight, okay? Have a nice day, Gerry. God bless.

GerryB.
In Response To Murray
Tuesday April 23, 2002 at 9:39

I respect Ron's right to his opinion and to express it. I also have a right to my opinion and to
express that. There are two traditional things in the church which I attend. One is "believers
baptism." The other is the celebration of the Lord's supper. Both are Biblical.

GerryB.
In Response To dori
Tuesday April 23, 2002 at 9:34

I am not grumpy this morning.

RE: "The Bible is not the only source of God's word."
Nope. You are right t5he Bible is not the only source. The teaching of the Holy Spirit in the life
of the believer is also source of understanding. No where does Christ teach that the traditions
of men are important. That vow of celibacy that you think should be done away with is not
taught in the Holy Scriptures. It is a tradition of men. Are you aware that in the early centuries
of the RC Church that Priests were married?

Murray
In Response To RonB
Tuesday April 23, 2002 at 9:32

One more in the series already began:

And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: In whom also ye
are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of
the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen
with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And
you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together
with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; (Col 2:10-13)

Again, we see ourselves literally immersed in the person of Christ. In Him, we are dead. Here
Paul uses the imagery of baptism as having been our burial.

Murray
In Response To GerryB
Tuesday April 23, 2002 at 9:28

I perceive that Ron and I have a different relationship than the one that you and he have.
Although we are sometimes sharp with each other because, well, we're both like that, there is
mutual respect between us. If I didn't believe Ron and I have something to say to each other, I
wouldn't bother. I believe the Catholic church does a lot of things right and that serious minded
Catholics and serious minded believers in Jesus Christ who are not Catholic do have things in
common and things to learn from each other. I also believe that we have traditions of men in
many of our churches and sometimes the ones that yell the loudest about the Catholics do not
see how they also live bound up by tradition. In any case, thanks for posting. Always a
pleasure.

dori
In Response To Gerry
Tuesday April 23, 2002 at 8:59

Did we get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? Hee hee... what a grouch!

dori
In Response To Gerry
Tuesday April 23, 2002 at 8:57

Ron well understands the truths of the Bible, Gerry, as well as following the tradition Jesus
passed on to his followers. Why is that so hard for you to understand? The Bible is not the
only source of God's word. Why do you feel the need to impugn his words here? He is
bringing the message of God to this room every bit as convincingly as Murray. There is much
to be learned from both. PTL.

GerryB.
In Response To Murray
Tuesday April 23, 2002 at 8:52

Keep on telling the truth. It won't, however, do any good. He can't understand the truths of the
Bible. It has to be the traditions of the men of the "True Church." The true Church was the one
which was founded by Jesus Christ. I don't see any one being appointed to be "pope" or
"Arch-Bishop." I don't see anything about men wearing gold trimmed robes. I guess that all of
those things are inventions of men rather than God.

GerryB.
In Response To Murray and Sim
Tuesday April 23, 2002 at 8:45

Good morning, gentlemen.

Supposedly we got some snow last night. I can look out my window and see none on the
ground. If it don't hit the ground it don't do us any good.

GerryB.
Tuesday April 23, 2002 at 8:38

"Geezy peezy, loweezy!" and "nanny nanny boo boo." This place is sounding more and more
like a kindergarden all the time. Other than Murray and Sim there were not many here last
night expressing intelligent thoughts. Good thing that I decided not to post. I would sure hate to
have raised the intellectual level of the place.

Murray
In Response To RonB
Tuesday April 23, 2002 at 5:55

Another verse that continues with similar themes is:

I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life
which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself
for me. (Gal 2:20)

Again we see, not only the death of Jesus as having already occurred and being in our place
and on our behalf, but that we were crucified with Him. And, that being the case, we no longer
live our own life because we no longer have it to live because we were crucified with Him. (if
one died, all died) Yet we still live, but not our old life, but He lives in us even as we died in
Him.

Murray
In Response To RonB
Tuesday April 23, 2002 at 5:35

In this passage, several truths are established. A partial list:

1.) Jesus' death has already occurred.

2.) This already occurred death was in our place and on our behalf. (if one died all died, and
He died for all)

3.) Because of the death of Jesus to the flesh on behalf of all, in recognition of that, we should
regard no one, including ourselves, according to the flesh.

4.) Being in Christ transforms us into someone totally new 5.) We are not who we once were;
that person is passed away. 6.) Everything about us is now of God because He has reconciled
us to Himself by his death.

Murray
In Response To RonB
Tuesday April 23, 2002 at 5:16

Does the Bible teach, and do so repeatedly, in plain language that eternal life is given to those
who are in Christ on the earth?

Let's let Scripture answer for itself.

For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died;
and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who
died for them and rose again. Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the
flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus
no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away;
behold, all things have become new. Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to
Himself..." 2 Cor 5:14-18

Murray
In Response To RonB 2:32
Tuesday April 23, 2002 at 4:44

I agree, by the verse you quoted, Paul forsaw a future reward, a crown of righteousness, for
keeping the faith. The verse conveys this plain meaning and needs no further explanation or to
have a layer of nuance put over it.

However, did he or did he not convey a sense in which zoe life or eternal life or the life of God
(all synonyms) and righteousness existed in Christ and, therefore, literally belongs to those who
are in Christ on the earth? Don't jump ahead and answer a different question just yet. You
probably have caveats which I am very happy to look at. But let's first look at the subject at
hand, which is:

Does the Bible teach, and do so repeatedly, in plain language that eternal life is given to those
who are in Christ on the earth?

dori
In Response To Ron
Tuesday April 23, 2002 at 2:45

And also with you. 8-))

RonB
In Response To dori
Tuesday April 23, 2002 at 2:43

Goodnight, dori, may God be with you and all of good will.

RonB
In Response To Murray
Tuesday April 23, 2002 at 2:41

Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of
life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him. (James 1)

Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into
prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto
death, and I will give thee a crown of life. (Rev 2)

Both these verses make it clear that we must "endure" and "remain" "faithful unto death" to
attain the crown of life. Not until our death is the issue settled for once and for all. The
sacraments of the living strengthen us in our struggle to attain the crown.

dori
In Response To Hi Ron
Tuesday April 23, 2002 at 2:37

I just peeked in and am on the way to bed, but I just wanted to say good night and keep up
the good fight. God bless!

RonB
In Response To Murray
Tuesday April 23, 2002 at 2:32

So, what does it mean to wish for this? Is not this already ours if we belong to Him? Does
not Paul teach this repeatedly?

St. Paul teaches us that the Crown of life is something we have to fight for.

For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. I have fought a
good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: Henceforth there is laid up for
me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that
day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

He obtained his crown by fighting the good fight and keeping the faith. It wasn't automatic.

*Coinkydink
In Response To Geezy Wheezy
Monday April 22, 2002 at 20:48

Geezy peezy, loweezy! I thought it was pretty obvious that jail would be part of drumming him
out of the church, and I already addressed that to Ron, if you'd bothered to look back all the
way before putting in your two-cents-worth. I would then change parishes because I would
figure if that was going on, others would have been covering for the creep. Understood? "
Sorry, the way you phrased it, it looked like you wanted HIM to change Parishes. Murray
thought you said that too.

Murray
In Response To RonB
Monday April 22, 2002 at 20:46

You write, "...Christianity has taught for over 2,000 years. In the Eucharist, Jesus' Body, the
Body he commanded that we eat if we wished for eternal life, is present.

What does it mean to wish for eternal life? In my understanding, eternal life is the English
translation of the greek word "zoe," which translates to "the type of life God has." So, what
does it mean to wish for this? Is not this already ours if we belong to Him? Does not Paul teach
this repeatedly?

RonB
In Response To Murray
Monday April 22, 2002 at 19:44

It is wrong to think that the sacraments (tail) have an inherent power or reality within
themselves to invoke his presence (dog) or bring him closer in any way. You can think it to
be true, but you can't make it true by thinking so. The biblical references about hearing
the church and keeping his commandments have nothing to do with sacraments or
sacramentalism.

As I've mentioned, below, this is not true. Christ told his Apostles, when he blessed the bread
and broke it, that "this is My Body... do this in remembrance of Me." Catholics obey this
command, and by Faith, see Christ in the Eucharist.

RonB
In Response To Murray
Monday April 22, 2002 at 19:41

Jesus Christ is what is real and is present in your life if you are his. Like Brother
Lawrence, you can live in his presence and commune with Him any time and any place.

Of course.

The sacraments do not invoke his presence because He is already present. The sacraments
do not and could not possibly make Him more present.

Not according to what Christianity has taught for over 2,000 years. In the Eucharist, Jesus'
Body, the Body he commanded that we eat if we wished for eternal life, is present. Physical
presence. His physical Body nourishes our spiritual lives. Maybe not "more present," but
present in a different way.

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