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Date Posted: 06:32:05 04/25/02 Thu
Author: stored
Subject: R1

Religion I

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The Philosopher's Corner, (and its varied forums) is for those wishing to debate ideas in an environment relatively free of personal attacks. This does NOT mean that ideas are not to be challenged and/or heavily debated. Bringing arguments from another forum to this forum or any other PC forum totally distorts the original message made, gives a biased slant and is inappropriate. Standing firm and making one's case on its own merits is the intelligent choice. Attacking and/or challenging an opinion is fair game.. Attacking someone personally is not. --Susan
Alternative R1 forum
Benefits: length of posts are basically unlimited, and if webforums break down we'll have a backup forum. :)



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MESSAGES IN THIS FORUM ARE PRESENTED AS NEWEST TO OLDEST.
RonB
In Response To Murray
Wednesday April 24, 2002 at 13:15

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself..." 2 Cor 5:14-18
Yes. No argument. But note, the if in this verse. "If anyone is in Christ..." Not all remain in Christ. Not all fight the good fight, or "endure unto death."

RonB
In Response To Murray
Wednesday April 24, 2002 at 13:10

Does the Bible teach, and do so repeatedly, in plain language that eternal life is given to those who are in Christ on the earth?
Yes. And the Bible also teaches, in plain language, that you must "endure" and "remain" and "fight the good fight," as you know by the verses that I quoted.

Murray
In Response To Ctaj, all
Wednesday April 24, 2002 at 13:05

Have you ever received a gift? If it was truly a gift, it was unearned. It you performed some act or behaved in a certain fashion to qualify for it, it wasn't a gift, but a payment, a recompense. I don't know what the big objection is to forgiveness being a gift. God has the power to forgive, so He gives it as a gift through Jesus. Big deal, it's his call. Through Jesus, He forgives sin and restores you to fellowship with Himself if you want it. If you don't, find some other way to get forgiven if you can. Or perform a religious ritual if you don't think the blood sacrifice of the Son of God is enough to forgive. Or just believe it's not necessary. Or whatever. But, if God really is a good God and Father and has the power to forgive, why wouldn't he?
Murray
In Response To SJ 12:49
Wednesday April 24, 2002 at 13:00

The only way you're not completely embarrassing yourself is if you're trying to be funny. And, even then...
Stephen James
In Response To Murray
Wednesday April 24, 2002 at 12:49

I am glad you are amused...it amuses me to see a person who believes in an Omnipotent God setting up boundaries which limit the Omnipotency of that God. The hypocrisy makes me laugh as well, Christians try so hard to make Man out to be just like God, depicting God in fantastic physical detail with that flowing white robe, beard, etc...etc..heck, you people even made God a man, but the moment it helps your argument, you suddenly shift to this version of a spirit with no hands, no feet...make up your mind already.
`Ctaj
In Response To Coinkydink
Wednesday April 24, 2002 at 12:40

Most "Moral absolutes" are man made
And it doesn't require a belief in supernatural powers to believe that it is in mankind's self-interest to have moral and ethical prohibitions against murder, theft, intentionally spreading diseases, etc. It's rational to agree with your fellow man: if you don't do it to me or mine, I won't do it to you or yours.

Stephen James
In Response To Coinky
Wednesday April 24, 2002 at 12:40

"Do you think keeping the price of oil cheap is worth the lives of those children in Iraq? Yes or no?"
"Children can also serve God, but also God gave their parents responsibilities toward them. If children neither serve God nor have parents that do, God is not obligated to them as we humanly think He should be."

God is not obligated to the children of heathens, those heathen Iraqi kids can best serve God by dying quietly in order that good Christian kids will know for sure that Mommy has enough gas in the SUV to get them to the beach on Saturday...

Murray
In Response To SJ 12:17
Wednesday April 24, 2002 at 12:38

Thanks for your post. I haven't laughed this hard in several days. Me writing the laws Omnipotent Deities live by. That's a comment for the archives for anytime I need a good laugh. The funniest thing of all is that you'll think I'm being sarcastic in writing this, but I truly burst out in uproarious laughter when I read that one. I've been trying to figure out your game for a long time and now I realize that you are just having some fun with them thar Christians, almost hoping they break the code and laugh along with you. Well, I am. Ciao.
`Ctaj
In Response To Coinkydink
Wednesday April 24, 2002 at 12:35

Do you think keeping the price of oil cheap is worth the lives of those children in Iraq? Yes or no?
Iraq is allowed to sell sufficient oil to provide adequate food and medicine to its people. Sanctions don't prevent that. What Sadaam Hussein chooses to do with those oil revenues is another matter.

Suppose we bit the bullet and allowed oil prices to rise by refusing to buy any Iraqi oil; Japan and Europe went along with it. We could easily fill the void by increasing our own production in ANWAR and along our coasts. Would you be happier then? How would the Iraqi children fare if no one bought Iraqi oil?

Stephen James
In Response To Forum
Wednesday April 24, 2002 at 12:33

Was there no HS involvement at all? Were all those Priests (and every pastor previously convicted in years past) agents of Satan sent to infiltrate the church?
Can agents of Satan do good works in the Name of Jesus? Certainly those Priests partook in things which would have driven demons out had they been present...maybe it is like Murray hinted at, God sent those priests the children of Atheists for them to bugger as a reward for their service.

Stephen James
In Response To Forum
Wednesday April 24, 2002 at 12:32

Before these Priests were exposed, no pun intended, they were all seen just the same as every Priest or Pastor still preaching today. They were seen as Men of God, held in high esteem by the whole congregation. How did all those men wind up on the pulpit in the first place? Did they answer a calling from God? Before their crimes emerged, they were seen as men being directed by the Holy Spirit, just as many of you claim to be...if the HS guided these men to the Priesthood, what happened to that guidance when these men of God began molesting children?..cont..
*Coinkydink
In Response To Ctaj
Wednesday April 24, 2002 at 12:22

Most "Moral absolutes" are man made...there are some that almost every culture follows, like the one against killing each other...even that one gets short shrift in some cases.
*Coinkydink
In Response To Dori
Wednesday April 24, 2002 at 12:17

"Oh yes, my mean-spirited uncaring attitude comes to the fore yet once again, eh?" You're the one characterising it so, not me...I just let your words speak for themselves.
Do you think keeping the price of oil cheap is worth the lives of those children in Iraq? Yes or no?

Stephen James
In Response To Murray
Wednesday April 24, 2002 at 12:17

You could have saved some space and just told me "God works in Mysterious ways".
All this nonsense about "God" not having hands or feet...was Jesus God or was he not? And I suppose you are the guy who writes the "Laws that Omnipotent Deities Abide By" and if Murray says an Omnipotent God cannot have hands and feet...well then, it must be so!!!

Sorry, I am not of the mind to "think like a child" so I am afraid your answer fails miserably. Have you ever actually given the question any thought, or do you just automatically go for the typical Christian answer to save yourself from dwelling on it?

`Ctaj
In Response To Murray
Wednesday April 24, 2002 at 12:13

Re moral absolutes, I recently heard a story about a couple, happily married with 3 or 4 healthy, well-adjusted kids, who discovered that they were brother and sister, separated at birth. Over "moral absolutes," they were sent to prison and their kids farmed out to foster homes.
Murray
In Response To Ctaj
Wednesday April 24, 2002 at 12:08

Supposedly, there used to be something called a "Christian Consensus" in this country which is traced back to a letter written by John Adams to Jefferson on June 28, 1813, by which they refer to a time since lost when people generally understood and agreed upon moral absolutes, Christian absolutes.

I, for one, do not pine for those days, however, because I like it more when people are out in the open with what they really believe. In the old days, people used to prefer outward conformity, but at the cost of great hypocrisy. Things are not so much that way anymore, which is fine with me. Real life bubbles up from deep within, not from conforming to societal or religious norms. It's all about living the real.

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