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Date Posted: 06:35:02 04/25/02 Thu
Author: stored
Subject: R1

Religion I

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The Philosopher's Corner, (and its varied forums) is for those wishing to debate ideas in an environment relatively free of personal attacks. This does NOT mean that ideas are not to be challenged and/or heavily debated. Bringing arguments from another forum to this forum or any other PC forum totally distorts the original message made, gives a biased slant and is inappropriate. Standing firm and making one's case on its own merits is the intelligent choice. Attacking and/or challenging an opinion is fair game.. Attacking someone personally is not. --Susan
Alternative R1 forum
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MESSAGES IN THIS FORUM ARE PRESENTED AS NEWEST TO OLDEST.
`Ctaj
In Response To Murray
Wednesday April 24, 2002 at 18:18

To wit, you said, "Another part of the connection is that, properly made, it continues after the body drops." By making such a declarative statement, you assert this as a fact. You didn't preface this with "I believe" or, perhaps more appropriately, "I hope" -- no, you say "it continues," definitively. What is your basis in saying this? Got a report back from someone?
`Ctaj
In Response To Murray
Wednesday April 24, 2002 at 18:02

You evaded the point in both responses.
You claimed, "Part of being connected to Him here is to receive the spiritual qualities that drive the moral and ethical side of living." Who is more "connected" that a priest? Yet, you concede that I, a lowly atheist, am more driven to the moral and ethical side of living. (BTW, that comes from rationality, not a delusion about the divinity of Jesus.) So, your assertion that "spritual qualities" lead to moral and ethical living is a false one.

Secondly, on the issue of proof of "continuing after the body drops," you changed the subject.

Murray
In Response To Ctaj
Wednesday April 24, 2002 at 15:44

"Current events seem to belie this assertion."

Au contrare. Current events support it. The guys who are caught up in this thing have obviously not been transformed and made whole. As I said, before, you are more personally devoted to Jesus than they.


You keep asking for proof. You're going to have to seek it out. I can not give you my love for God any more than I can my love of anyone or anything else. From each of our perspectives, it comes down to being between Him and us.

`Ctaj
In Response To Murray
Wednesday April 24, 2002 at 15:12

Another part of the connection is that, properly made, it continues after the body drops.
Got any evidence to support that?

`Ctaj
In Response To Murray
Wednesday April 24, 2002 at 15:10

Part of being connected to Him here is to receive the spiritual qualities that drive the moral and ethical side of living.
Current events seem to belie this assertion.

Murray
In Response To Ctaj
Wednesday April 24, 2002 at 15:01

"So, what we have here is a system of morals and ethics that teaches no matter how great the evil you commit, there's always an escape clause that can get you to eternal life in heaven.

No, we have a way of being personally transformed and made whole by being reconnected to God in our lives on this earth. Part of being connected to Him here is to receive the spiritual qualities that drive the moral and ethical side of living. Another part of the connection is that, properly made, it continues after the body drops.

Murray
In Response To RonB faith 3
Wednesday April 24, 2002 at 14:48

Therefore, biblical faith is a reliance or a trust in God and/or what He says. That is why it is critical to actually get to know Him and what He said. And yet, He does not leave this up to us alone, but makes overtures to us in various ways. The primary way is through the Jesus and his current day ministry through the church. Just as Jesus came and said, "The Spirit of the LORD is upon Me, Because He has anointed Me To preach the gospel to the poor; He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives And recovery of sight to the blind, To set at liberty those who are oppressed; (Luke 4:18), He also anoints us and sends us out with the same message.
`Ctaj
Wednesday April 24, 2002 at 14:33

"You have sacrificed reason to faith. You have sacrificed wealth to need. You have sacrificed self-esteem to self-denial. You have sacrificed happiness to duty.
You have destroyed all that which you held to be evil and achieved all that which you held to be good. Why, then do you shrink in horror from the sight of the world around you? That world is not the product of your sins, it is the product and the image of your virtues. It is your moral ideal brought into reality in its full and final perfection. You have fought for it, you have dreamed of it, and you have wished it, and I -- I am the man who has granted you your wish."

`Ctaj
In Response To Murray
Wednesday April 24, 2002 at 14:33

Have you ever read John Galt's Speech from Atlas Shrugged, by Ayn Rand?
"You have heard it said that this is an age of moral crisis. You have said it yourself, half in fear, half in hope that the words had no meaning. You have cried that man's sins are destroying the world and you have cursed human nature for its unwillingness to practice the virtues you demanded. Since virtue, to you, consists of sacrifice, you have demanded more sacrifices at every successive disaster. In the name of a return to morality, you have sacrificed all those evils which you held as the cause of your plight. You have sacrificed justice to mercy. You have sacrificed independence to unity. [more]

Murray
In Response To RonB faith 2
Wednesday April 24, 2002 at 14:32

For example, "By faith Sarah herself also received strength to conceive seed, and she bore a child when she was past the age, because she judged Him faithful who had promised." (Hebrews 11:11) Here we also see that faith has an object. Faith always has to have an object. Even in the natural world, if you have faith a chair will support your weight, you will sit in it, if you don't, you won't. Likewise, the object of biblical faith is in God or in the promises of God. In fact, faith is only as good as the object thereof. The reason Sarah was strengthened was not because she had great faith, but a great promiser. She judged Him faithful who had promised.
Murray
In Response To RonB faith 1
Wednesday April 24, 2002 at 14:25

Well, for the first thing, faith is obviously something we have to fight for, otherwise Scripture would not say that we should "fight the good fight of faith." Also, we are given a counterpoint to faith where it says, "For we walk by faith, not by sight." (2 Cor 5:7) To amplify further, we also learn, "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." (Hebrews 11:1) Here again, we see faith as contrasted to the realm of sight, yet we see it as having substance to it. It is a real and definable thing. We can also see its effects. It motivated and strengthened people to do things they couldn't otherwise do.
`Ctaj
In Response To Murray
Wednesday April 24, 2002 at 14:20

Through Jesus, He forgives sin and restores you to fellowship with Himself if you want it. If you don't, find some other way to get forgiven if you can.
So, what we have here is a system of morals and ethics that teaches no matter how great the evil you commit, there's always an escape clause that can get you to eternal life in heaven. Any you people wonder why society is going to hell in a handbasket...

RonB
In Response To Murray
Wednesday April 24, 2002 at 14:15

Is it not of faith?
I missed the of in that sentence. Sorry. I shouldn't try to do this when I'm cramped for time.

RonB
In Response To Error
Wednesday April 24, 2002 at 14:12

Faith, which is an objective thing and does depend on us,...
Should have been:

Faith, which is an objective thing and does not depend on us,...

RonB
In Response To Murray
Wednesday April 24, 2002 at 14:10

I've got to go. I'll leave a question and then try to get back this evening.
What does faith mean to you? It seems that we may using the same word, but defining it in different ways.

RonB
In Response To Murray
Wednesday April 24, 2002 at 14:07

I believe the Bible speaks to all of that voluminously and quite eloquently. Do you? For example, what is the good fight? Is it not of faith?
No. We endure in the Faith, Faith is not endurance. We fight the "good fight of faith," Faith is not fighting. We remain in the Faith -- Faith is not merely "remaining." At any time we could quit "enduring," "fighting," or "remaining." The Christian Faith would still endure, remain and be fought for, but we would be giving up and the Faith, which is an objective thing and does depend on us, would no longer save us. Christ will never turn away from us, but we can turn away from Him.

Murray
In Response To RonB
Wednesday April 24, 2002 at 13:56

Who is arguing for eternal security? Not me. It is an argument made without consideration of the whole counsel of the Bible and, so, it is not one I can in good conscience make. Do you superimpose it onto me? If so, why?
Murray
In Response To RonB 13:15
Wednesday April 24, 2002 at 13:50

OK, looks like you're done for now. Your caveat is, "Not all remain in Christ. Not all fight the good fight, or "endure unto death."

I believe the Bible speaks to all of that voluminously and quite eloquently. Do you? For example, what is the good fight? Is it not of faith? After all, to be a Christian is to believe or have faith in whom? In ourselves to fight or in Him to empower us to fight? Is his power automatically released in our lives? I say no. Do you agree? If so, how is it released? What do we have to stay in the flow of it? Does the Bible help us to see when we are in faith and when we are not? I say yes. What do you say? It's not simplistic when you start to break it down and scrutinize, is it?

RonB
In Response To Murray
Wednesday April 24, 2002 at 13:47

By "putting caveats" do you mean I'm quoting Scripture, that opposes the "eternal security" argument?

As you will note, I've been responding to messages from a day or two ago -- trying to catch up. Wasn't even aware that you had already begun responding to my new messages.

Another note. Personal opinion, but I think that, whoever separated the Bible into verses has (unintentionally) done more damage to Christianity then he would have ever guessed.

RonB
In Response To Murray
Wednesday April 24, 2002 at 13:40

And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; (Col 2:10-13)
Again, no argument, except this is written to those who remain in the Faith. Also from St. Paul's letter to the Colossians (just a few verses earlier):

And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel,

Murray
In Response To SJ
Wednesday April 24, 2002 at 13:32

"...your the one spouting off that God has no physical hands or feet..."

Which happens to be true. You embarrass yourself by making such an issue of this point instead of simply accepting it as true.

Murray
In Response To RonB
Wednesday April 24, 2002 at 13:26

My last was a response to your 13:10. By your 13:15, you are putting caveats. I will wait to see if you are done before answering further.
Stephen James
In Response To Murray
Wednesday April 24, 2002 at 13:26

Why should I be embarrassed? Your the one who is so fancifully dodging my questions/queries with tales of how hard you are laughing...your the one spouting off that God has no physical hands or feet for which to answer the prayers of children with. Your the one making silly excuses for God and refusing to explain yourself...now that is an embarrassment. IMO
Murray
In Response To RonB
Wednesday April 24, 2002 at 13:22

Absolutely, it does say these things. We need to take these things seriously and to not just, as the Scripture says, " But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was." (James 1:22-24)

To me, this is one of the most incisive pieces of Scripture there is. It cuts both the ones that hear only and do not do, but it also cuts the ones that do only, but do not hear. In any case, it lays down a track for Christian living that is very exacting and demanding.

RonB
In Response To GerryB
Wednesday April 24, 2002 at 13:19

Keep on telling the truth. It won't, however, do any good. He can't understand the truths of the Bible. It has to be the traditions of the men of the "True Church."
Well, Gerry, in my arguments with Murray, on this subject, I am quoting from the Bible (even the Protestant KJV, you will notice) -- but I quote verses that are often ignored by those who believe in "eternal security."


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