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Date Posted: 12:13:57 04/25/02 Thu
Author: stored
Subject: R1

Religion I

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The Philosopher's Corner, (and its varied forums) is for those wishing to debate ideas in an environment relatively free of personal attacks. This does NOT mean that ideas are not to be challenged and/or heavily debated. Bringing arguments from another forum to this forum or any other PC forum totally distorts the original message made, gives a biased slant and is inappropriate. Standing firm and making one's case on its own merits is the intelligent choice. Attacking and/or challenging an opinion is fair game.. Attacking someone personally is not. --Susan
Alternative R1 forum
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MESSAGES IN THIS FORUM ARE PRESENTED AS NEWEST TO OLDEST.
`Ctaj
In Response To Murray
Thursday April 25, 2002 at 11:27

By "if there is a God," I meant an external entity, something other than a product of our individual consciousness; something beyond our own creation and control.
Murray
In Response To Ctaj
Thursday April 25, 2002 at 11:23

"And if there's a God..."

Sure there's one. You even said so yourself. You said God is love and connected dots from there to arrive at the conclusion that love is what it's all about, with which I wholeheartedly agree. It's a perfectly acceptable conclusion, a healthy one even.

dori
In Response To LOL!
Thursday April 25, 2002 at 11:14

Coinky, you're a hoot. You posted this awhile ago: "Baby and I are painting the studio room today... that ought to be fun."
I guess you have no idea how harmful it is for a baby to be exposed to paint fumes. Yet you tell me you don't want the likes of me being responsible for the babies of the world? LMGBBBO!

`Ctaj
In Response To Murray
Thursday April 25, 2002 at 11:12

Ctaj often speaks quite eloquently about certain aspects of the teachings of Jesus that guide his life. Who is to say that, by being committed to live his life in this way, he has not been given the spiritual grace to carry it out? In a very real sense, I see a solemn commitment in his life for which I have a high level of respect and I believe that the Lord also honors it.
Kind words, and I thank you for them. But understand that as much as I subscribe to many (but not all) of Jesus' teachings, I also reject much of the NT that's attruted to him by his followers. I do not believe in a virgin birth, a resurrection, nor a Second Coming, nor in the divinity of Jesus. And if there's a God, I'm sure He's OK with that.

Murray
In Response To Ctaj
Thursday April 25, 2002 at 11:10

Love IS what it is all about. May we all grow in our understanding of it and deepen in our commitment to walk in it. BBL
`Ctaj
In Response To Murray
Thursday April 25, 2002 at 10:56

He said, "He who has seem me has seen the Father." (John 14:9) He also said, "I and my Father are one." (John 10:30)
Somewhere in the OT, I think Genisis, it also says, "God is love." So, connecting the dots...

"He who has seen me has seen love."
"I and my Father are love."

Love is what it's all about. The rest is distortion.

*Coinkydink
In Response To Ya'll
Thursday April 25, 2002 at 10:52

Baby Tiffany is here.. gotta run...TTFN
Murray
In Response To Coinkydink
Thursday April 25, 2002 at 10:49

He said, "He who has seem me has seen the Father." (John 14:9) He also said, "I and my Father are one." (John 10:30) I happen to have reverence for them both. I hope that is OK with you.
Murray
In Response To Coinkydink
Thursday April 25, 2002 at 10:44

"Which means that the message of Christ, properly understood, is universal." I believe this is true ... so when you said that God only hears those who are Christians, you must have misspoke yourself, huh? ;)"

When did I say that? I said that He blesses those who make themselves accessible and available to Him. I did not say what you said I said, I don't believe.

*Coinkydink
In Response To Murray
Thursday April 25, 2002 at 10:35

"And, yes, of course, being converted by the Spirit is what it means to have a rebirth. It is not a conversion to a set of beliefs, but to a person." And Jesus called that person, Father, and told us to do the same.
*Coinkydink
In Response To Murray
Thursday April 25, 2002 at 10:34

"Which means that the message of Christ, properly understood, is universal." I believe this is true ... so when you said that God only hears those who are Christians, you must have misspoke yourself, huh? ;)
Murray
In Response To Coinkydink
Thursday April 25, 2002 at 10:32

And, yes, of course, being converted by the Spirit is what it means to have a rebirth. It is not a conversion to a set of beliefs, but to a person.
*Coinkydink
In Response To Jun San
Thursday April 25, 2002 at 10:31

My friend, Jun San, is a Japanese Buddhist Nun, who lives in New York state. She and I have had long discussions when we were marching for better prison conditions. She shows a remarkable spiritual depth and love for God and all mankind. Her ability to convey that love is unexcelled by any Christian I've ever met. She does good works and works for justice because it is the right thing to do, not because she thinks it will help her get to Heaven or because she fears God. Fear has nothing to do with her relationship to God...and it is as real as anything I've ever seen. I have a Hindu doctor who also shows this kind of love and compassion. It has to come from God. IMHO
Murray
In Response To Coinkydink 10:20
Thursday April 25, 2002 at 10:28

Which means that the message of Christ, properly understood, is universal. And which also means that He makes Himself known to people who sincerely seek Him. He does not need us to call Him by his name. He calls us to himself and He knows our name. That is the important thing. He said his sheep will hear his voice, not that they would hear his name. Knowing his name, as you have said, is a bonus.
*Coinkydink
In Response To Murray, Ctaj, etal
Thursday April 25, 2002 at 10:20

People talk about a rebirth experience. Usually they mean some change in a belief system or acceptance of Jesus after they hear about him. But my Mennonite missionary friend said that many times when he'd go into a primative area there were people there who were already "converted" by the Spirit in their lives...they'd say to the missionary, where have you been? God has been here already.. we just didn't know he had a name.
Murray
In Response To Coikydink & Ctaj
Thursday April 25, 2002 at 10:19

I agree. I did not answer Ctaj's posts of yesterday to his satisfaction. I'll just say this one thing for now. Ctaj often speaks quite eloquently about certain aspects of the teachings of Jesus that guide his life. Who is to say that, by being committed to live his life in this way, he has not been given the spiritual grace to carry it out? In a very real sense, I see a solemn commitment in his life for which I have a high level of respect and I believe that the Lord also honors it.
`Ctaj
In Response To Murray
Thursday April 25, 2002 at 10:15

But, to expect God to step in and provide some kind of mystical external rescue is not realistic.
Now you're makin' some sense.

*Coinkydink
In Response To Murray
Thursday April 25, 2002 at 10:12

When you read what Jesus taught,you can see that it was the state of a mans soul that concerned him, not so much the state of his body...even though he did do a couple of healings, that wasn't his main message. It was the relationship to God. Seems to me, that God isn't as concerned with what happens to us, as he is with how we handle it, our turning to him for strength, how our souls grow in strength through his spirit, where our love is shown, .
Murray
In Response To Coinkydink
Thursday April 25, 2002 at 10:07

"No, my beef is with those people who claim to have exclusive access to God...

I don't like that kind of attitude either. What I mean when I say that God blesses people who trust Him, serve Him and obey Him is that this is a life that is indicative of the fact that He has access to them. People that do not make themselves accessible and available to Him are going to have problems. It's just the way it works. Now, if you want to talk about a child reaching out to Him or anyone for that matter, that is fine and you are correct to say that is innate. But, to expect God to step in and provide some kind of mystical external rescue is not realistic.

*Coinkydink
In Response To 2 minute warning
Thursday April 25, 2002 at 10:00

It's almost 8 am...they will be bringing the baby anytime now...so I might just leave without saying TTFN. Baby and I are painting the studio room today... that ought to be fun. I'm painting it to match me...peach and a kind of rusty accent color, because I'm a redhead...(this year)...haha!
*Coinkydink
In Response To Murray
Thursday April 25, 2002 at 9:55

Ctaj's other post: "You evaded the point in both responses. You claimed, "Part of being connected to Him here is to receive the spiritual qualities that drive the moral and ethical side of living." Who is more "connected" than a priest? Yet, you concede that I, a lowly atheist, am more driven to the moral and ethical side of living. (BTW, that comes from rationality, not a delusion about the divinity of Jesus.) So, your assertion that "spritual qualities" lead to moral and ethical living is a false one. Secondly, on the issue of proof of "continuing after the body drops," you changed the subject.
*Coinkydink
In Response To Murray
Thursday April 25, 2002 at 9:53

In case, you forgot Ctaj's posts: "To wit, you said, "Another part of the connection is that, properly made, it continues after the body drops." you say "it continues," definitively. What is your basis in saying this?" (Continued)
`Ctaj
In Response To GerryB
Thursday April 25, 2002 at 9:53

I've never seen any two people agree on everything when it comes to Christianity. A real God would have written a less ambiguous book.
`Ctaj
In Response To RonB
Thursday April 25, 2002 at 9:51

That 83% Christian number is based on a false dichotomy, of course. The way the bet is couched, "believing" is a one-way bet; there's no penalty for being wrong, as there supposedly is for disbelieving.
If it were couched another way, the numbers would change dramatically. For example: "Do you believe in the virgin birth, the resurrection of Jesus Christ, and His Second Coming?" If you answer yes and you're wrong, your soul will burn in hell for eternity. If you answer no and you're right, your soul will enjoy eternal tranquility. Phrased that way, I bet you wouldn't get 50%, much less 83%.

*Coinkydink
In Response To TB2
Thursday April 25, 2002 at 9:49

"Pretending that there is some character by the name of God with the same attributes as Man is a popular and equitable fantasy of Man …The real good or moral value of these fantasies is always balanced be the damage caused by the same. Religions are not measured by the goodness or truth they provide … they are measured by the survivability they provide their respective cultures." I have to AMEN that, my brother!

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