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ECAC and Scholarships One More Time -- zipp, 11:33:07 07/13/04 Tue
To save myself some typing, I'm going to just re-post (again) an old comment I made a couple of weeks ago:
I'll take a shot at trying to explain that. First, there's one school of thought amongst hockey people that the main goal of the ECAC (new commissioner and all) in adding a school is to improve their overall league strength and thus strength of schedule. Obviously, adding a non-scholarship school is less likely to achieve this goal than schorarship program. Argue this point if you want but IMO few would debate that we've had unusual success with out scholarships and that it's clearly easier to be successful with scholarships than with out.
We can argue if this is the ECAC's primary goal (certainly HC seems to hope that academic fit is their primary criteria), but the ECAC really IS a scholarship league. Colgate now gives scholarships which makes all the non-Ivy schools scholarship except Union and Union is clearly the blacksheep program of the league. In fact, there was a fair amount of speculation that the league might attempt to give the boot to Union and then add an even number of teams (particularly after the Union President angered the other schools by voting against the D-III scholarship exemption at the NCAA vote this spring, but that's another issue).
Now I know what you're going to say, "but the Ivy's don't give scholarships." LOL. First, they're the Ivy's, period, nuff said. And we've seen the results of the "let's compete against the Ivy's with out scholarships" experiment. Secondly, as Paul Pearl once said, "What is a scholarship?" (or something to that effect). Ask around and you'll find plenty of people (and its been debated here) that will tell you that the Ivy's can be interestingly creative with financial aid; particularly with hockey players.
So, I've gone on a while but the point is this league arguably is a scholarship league (Ivy + Scholarship). A school of thought says that the primary goal for ECAC inclusion is a school that maximizes (now or eventually) in-conference SOS. And the theory goes, a scholarship school(s) is most likely to achieve this goal.
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Re: And If We Don't Get In? -- sader1970, 13:51:00 07/13/04 Tue
Not sure where HChockeyalum got the quote from Fr. McFarland and recognizing that the statement is quoted in a vaccuum, I don't read the comment as anything other than full support for trying to get HC into the ECAC. He's drawing a POSITIVE distinction between trying get HC hockey into the ECAC where we will be competing with other high quality academic institutions and can do so without sacrificing out academic reputation vs. going Big East in basketball/other sports and might very well have to tinker with our admission standards. Now, you can argue whether or not we'll all go to hell if we could ever get into the Big East, but the good father seems to be saying we can "have" our athletic cake and "eat" our academics too with the ECAC hockey.
And, by the way, I don't think our "academic principles" are the same as any other non-Catholic college whether or not they are Ivy League schools. If by that you mean that it is harder to get into an Ivy League school than HC, I agree with you.
I'll repeat what I've said often, Fr. McFarland is a strong supporter of HC hockey and I believe he'd do anything and everything legally and ethically to get HC into the ECAC. But he would not do anything that would be in conflict with the mission of Holy Cross.
Because HC has not put out for media consumption what they are willing and unwilling to do to gain admission to the ECAC, there seems to be a presumption that HC administrators don't truly care and that we therefore have no chance of making the cut despite the fact that we are now among the final two candidates. To me, that's a very good sign. Heck, the ECAC might end up taking both of the final two.
Regardless, IMO too many of you seem to be throwing in the towel a bit prematurely.
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Re: And If We Don't Get In? -- sader1970, 15:57:59 07/13/04 Tue
In your quote, it doesn't say "academic principles," just "principles." I don't have in front of me the mission of the college, but suspect that Fr. McFarland was referring to more than just academics when he referred to "principles."
I don't know how long it's been since you were on the hockey team. Was it under Fr. McFarland's tenure as president? If it was under Fr. Reedy or Fr. Brooks or Frank Vellacio's reign, I'm not aware that any of them are/were particularly interested in hockey as a sport (though I know that Frank went out to Colorado for the NCAA game and seems currently very interested in HC making the ECAC).
I've had a couple of conversations with Fr. McFarland about HC hockey. The first was at a hockey game a couple of years ago. At that time, he told me that by a wide margin, hockey was his personal favorite team sport. I have seen Fr. McFarland make the obligatory cameo appearance at basketball games only to leave and watch the hockey team play across the way. He also told me that he had tremendous respect for what Paul Pearl was accomplishing and was a great coach. Last year when it looked like Paul was leaving, I opined on this board that I thought that HC would try to keep him. And, it happened. Not because of any "inside" knowledge I had but simply because I was so impressed by Fr. McFarland's extremely favorable comments about Paul previously that I just felt he wouldn't let HC lose him.
I had a second conversation with Fr. McFarland after the NCAA loss vs. UND and I asked him about the ECAC as a possibility. Fr. McFarland was at the game personally as well. He was aglow with enthusiasm at how well and courageously the team played and mentioned specifically the courage of our goalie who was literally sick throughout the game. I left with the distinct impression that he thought that joining the ECAC would be a good fit for HC (and the ECAC) and that joining would do nothing to negatively impact the subject of paramount importance, the academic integrity and quality of HC while staying true to our Catholic roots.
It is my impression, and that's all it is - my impression, that the HC administration does NOT believe it needs to give athletic scholarships in hockey to be successful nor to win a spot in the ECAC. Paul Pearl, himself, has been quoted as saying he doesn't think athletic scholarships are critical to success as there are other ways to get the financial needs of incoming hockey players met. Specifically, I tweaked Frank Vellacio about the rumor that HC has some academic scholarships for "foreign" students and that there was a disproportionate use of those scholarships given to Canadian hockey players. Frank simply and diplomatically said he didn't have a lot of details about that but there was pointedly no denial.
I never played hockey for HC or elsewhere. You probably have more inside information than I or most of us on this board. But, based on my little information, I believe HC really wants to be in the ECAC and has and will use whatever arguments they can make to gain admittance but won't be looking to promise a 5,000 seat expansion of the Hart, or adding 15 scholarships. I believe they'll play to the academic reputation of HC, the long-standing rivalries in other sports especially with the Ivies and Colgate and the geographic locale that should favor us. And, the availability of the Centrum when we need it for those really big crowds.
HChockey, you may well be right and I'm all wet but let's see. We should hear in 2-3 days.
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Re: goHChockey = Loser fraud -- HC 91, 00:39:53 07/14/04 Wed
Pitt 65. Get off your high horse and don't lecture me. If you feel the need to counsel younger people on tone in their arguments, go spend some spare time at the young lawyers club. Your generation does not get mine and we don't get yours, let's leave it that. By the way, I'm curious to see if you enjoyed his comment about LaBran? Give me a break. Where were your policing efforts there. let me guess, you worship at the altar of bobby kennedy and are confused by the young people today. classic.
Do you have any idea how many frauds show up regularly on this posting board? One showed up the other day and dropped some garbage about the ECAC. how do we know it's not the same person under a different moniker.
as to your other points.
the school does not have 30,000 living alumni.
there has not been any athletes' tables since 1985 -that's 20 years.
the pit has been called the pit since the 80s, the same period where the poster in question claims to have spent his time there. things change from 1965 to 1985 radically, not so from 1985 to 1991.
i've never heard of reidy and don't know anyone who has. if he was thinking about reidy, why'd he spell it incorrectly. brooks consulted mostly with miller and markey on matters during the 80s & 90s.
was that enough logic for you? give me a break. it's bingo night at the young lawyers club - they're anxiously awaiting your words of wisdom.
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HC alumni -- pitt65, 02:01:10 07/14/04 Wed
As of 12/31/03, school lists alumni of record as 32,993. Info found easily on HC website. [Even if it were not listed it wouldn't be hard to estimate - start with @600 per year since 1970 (or last 35 years)to get 21,000; halve that number for prior 30 years to account for reduced class size & actuarial rates]
Your estimate of 10,000 is absurd.
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Rev. Maurice Reidy, SJ -- pitt65, 02:40:06 07/14/04 Wed
Father Maurice Reidy, SJ - Info about Father Reidy in relation to athletics at Holy Cross in the Swords-Brooks era can undoubtedly be found by HC 1991 [and any of his friends who have never heard of the man]on his plaque in the Holy Cross Athletic Hall of Fame. It was for his longtime connection to HC athletics that the late Father Reidy was given one of the handful of honorary memberships in the hall. He was inducted in the early 1980s.
Using HC 1991's standards, does this mean his lack of knowledge about an HC Hall member means old '91 is an imposter?
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Re: goHChockey = Loser fraud -- TB88, 09:13:54 07/14/04 Wed
HC 91: Your factual comments are helpul. However,your sarcastic comments directed towards Pitt65 are useless and add little to the discouse on this board. Moreover, such comments and lack of respect reflect poorly on our generation. Father LaBran, who now resides at the Jesuits' infirmary in Weston, is a class act and a truly holy man. His retreats are legendary and he's positively influenced numerous students, student-athletes and faculty. He lived the HC motto!
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Re: goHChockey = Loser fraud -- TB88, 09:24:15 07/14/04 Wed
HC 91: Your factual comments are helpful. However, your sarcastic comments directed towards Pitt65 add little discouse to this board. Moreover, such comments and lack of respect reflect poorly on our generation and society in general. Fr. LaBran, who now resides in the Jesuits' infirmary at Weston, is a class act and truly a holy man. His retreats are legendary and he's influenced numerous students, student-athletes and staff/faculty. He lived the HC motto-Yahweh!
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Re: goHChockey = Loser fraud -- goHChockey, 01:10:14 07/14/04 Wed
To HC 1991:
Excuse me if I didn't recall the President for all four years of my tenure. I could have looked it up online if I really was a fraud. BTW, I answered 3 of 5 of your silly questions, the exceptions being some theater I never attended and some professor I never had. I was a History major, but never once took a course from Lap Dog (know who that was?), like all the football players.
You were thankfully still in HS during my years on the hill, so you likely wouldn't know how well attended hockey games were in the mid-'80s. We most certainly did regularly outdraw the women BB and the men BB for a couple of games as well.
Again, because you weren't there, you wouldn't know that football and BB got training table and hockey did not.
You're response might be that they somehow deserved it and we did not. Well let me hazard a guess and tell you that I've likely played with (HC hockey) and against more hockey players who went on to play professionally than the HC football and BB teams produced during my years. That is some indication perhaps that this was quality hockey, even if the administration didn't recognize it.
Again, I relayed information that was provided to me from a friend at HC with personal knowledge of the HC bid for the ECAC. Neither I nor my source have concrete knowledge what the ECAC's decision will ultimately be. It was merely the impression of the source that our bid MAY have failed. And again, I fully support our admission to the ECAC. And again, not one of the other applicants can compete with HC in any meaningful way. Why would a Quinnipiac supporter say such things? Moreover, I don't see any other posters revealing who their sources are in this regard. I'm just sharing info that was given to me, which info I believe other alums and fans might want to hear, even if it is bad news. In any event, our posts don't influence a thing, so try decaf next time. Try growing up too.
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Re: goHChockey = Loser fraud -- HC 1991, 01:16:28 07/14/04 Wed
Lap Dog = Fr. Lapomarda, S.J.
and from what i was told, he was not as easy as the name would indicate, despite the abundance of fball players in his classes.
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Re: goHChockey = Loser fraud -- goHChockey, 01:20:43 07/14/04 Wed
More convinced now? Why don't I ask you some trivia, hockey trivia! What was the Teapot Tournament, where was it held, who was in it, and when was it last played?
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Re: goHChockey = Loser fraud -- HC 1991, 02:27:35 07/14/04 Wed
started in 1980. probably killed before or around 1986, b/c I don't remember it in my 4 years.
teams were mostly D II teams situated in Mass, which HC was at the time. an alternative to the beanpot, but still played at the boston garden.
teams included umass lowell and merrimack - prior to the hockey east and d1 upgrades. HC and maybe salem state too. bowdoin or colby may have been in the mix at one time too.
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To: 1991 -- Rick, 13:29:26 07/14/04 Wed
You appear to have gotten yourself all wound up here....
" HC does not have an alumni base of 20,000. halve that amount. check your facts. "
( per pitt65 ) " As of 12/31/03, school lists alumni of record as 32,993. Info found easily on HC website. "
Looks like we were BOTH wrong on that, you agree ?
" confidential info. please. more likely fabricated info. we're not delaing with material, non-public information ala wall street here. it's bogus junk from a bogus poster. "
Perhaps he was/is. But, even though as of this writing we're working off a newspaper article only, his comments of the other day track pretty well with this article, you agree ?
" if you attended in the mid-80's and don't know that, coupled with the fact that you mention Reedy during the same time period suggests you are either a fraud or take copious amounts of drugs. either way, you got no game. go back to brdigeport and find a job at the stanley plant. ohh, that was closed down. "
Text wise it appears you directed this at me. Presume in your haste you meant to direct it goHCockey ?
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Re: Fr Reidy Story -- KY Crusader '75, 07:59:47 07/14/04 Wed
Fr Maurice Reidy lived in my dorm, Wheeler. The story was told that he had been a lacrosse star in college and also that he had led the nation in punting. I don't know whether either was true. I know he worked out with or helped coach the lacrosse team. At one HC home football game in the early 1970's, one of the game officials failed to show up or got injured. Fr Reidy was pressed into service to officiate, which he did with the zebra shirt on over his cassock. It made for an impressive sight.
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HC is... -- HC1843, 08:51:12 07/14/04 Wed
161 years old, not 167, but that is splitting hairs. Things change, memories differ but are true to the individual who attended at his or her time. I am sure that we can all recount stories that hold true today, and many that have changed since.
As to Fr. Lapomarda. When I went to the Cross, he was known as "Lapdog". I took him for one class and in my opinion certain people, cough...football players...cough...were favored over others.
Man, I wish I could have been at Kimball when the food was actually good. Upper Kimball was universally despised in my day, with Lower Kimball barely passing muster. This being said, Upper Kimball was a blast for Thanksgiving and Christmas meals, which were special occassions for all...otherwise it was bad. I used to work in the bowels of Kimball and can tell you all some nightmare stories about the food, as well as confirm the security system protected liquor cooler.
There is even a reason, an unfortunate one at that, why the stairwell in Hogan was sealed off during the renovation.
Cheers.
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Re: HC is... -- sader1970, 11:00:19 07/14/04 Wed
Well, 1843, I got caught again. Not being a math major and being too lazy, I used a calculator to figure out the exact age of HC. But, my failing eyesight and darkened room (so as not to wake up the spouse) caused me to misread the last digit.
As to the quality of food, it's all a matter of expectations. 1843, you might be Italian with a mother who cooks like the finest restaurants on Federal Hill in Providence. I, on the other hand, had an Irish mother who food was simply fuel for the body. Kimball was probably a step up for me and down for you!
Lower Kimball, when I started, was still used for the post office and Dean of Men's office (like if you wanted a pass to leave the campus at night).
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Re: It's great that you are in - congratulations. -- Go...'gate, 11:12:50 07/14/04 Wed
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