Create a New Forum Admin Login Member Login Contribute to Voyager Search VoyForums Help Desk VoyForums Exchange VoyForums Directory/Categories VoyForums Homepage VoyForums News FAQ - Frequently Asked Questions

[ Show ]

Support VoyForums

[ Shrink ]

VoyForums Announcement: Programming and providing support for this service has been a labor of love since 1997. We are one of the few services online who values our users' privacy, and have never sold your information. We have even fought hard to defend your privacy in legal cases; however, we've done it with almost no financial support -- paying out of pocket to continue providing the service. Due to the issues imposed on us by advertisers, we also stopped hosting most ads on the forums many years ago. We hope you appreciate our efforts.

Show your support by donating any amount. (Note: We are still technically a for-profit company, so your contribution is not tax-deductible.) PayPal Acct: Feedback:

Donate to VoyForums (PayPal):

Thu, May 14 2026, 10:35:05

[ Login ] [ Main index ] [ Post a new message ] [ Search | Check update time | Archives: 1, 2, 3, [4] ]

Subject: CLC Management etc Author: Phil [ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ] Date Posted: 01:41:26 11/24/04 Wed I'm not a Paradise owner or Monterey but know the resorts well and the timeshare industry as a whole. I hope my message will give some useful info and/or ideas. First of all to someone who mentioned that he thought CLC had only bought the management rights of the resorts: according to my knowledge of timeshare this is wrong. I believe that both Paradise and Monterey are operated under the British club system - which is a right to use system. What this actually means is that none of you physically own your apartment but have bought a "right to use" it (this is different to the deeded system whereby you physically own your week and this is registered at the land registry). This means that CLC DO own the resort and all its buildings, furnishings etc. whilst a trustee holds them in order to protect owners' usage rights. This is as well as having the management contract. This is how it is so easy for CLC to repossess for none payment of management fees - you do not own the apartment and according to your Club membership contract, if you do not pay then they can cancel your membership. Under the deeded system, whilst the management company cannot repossess your week for none payment, they can block your week. Owners who are really unhappy with the way CLC are running things, should take a look at Loch Rannoch in Scotland - a MacDonald resort. The owners there voted overwhelmingly to remove the management contract from MacDonald and formed a management company to take over the running of the resort. This has not been without problems (MacDonalds got RCI to cancel the resort’s affiliation and I believe tried to recoup from the new management company previously unpaid management fees from when MacD managed the resort) but on the whole for Loch Rannoch owners this has been a success. Management fees are much lower (in the first year, the management company made a small profit) and keep coming down. Loch Rannoch owners now tend to use the smaller exchange companies who either have lower exchange fees or no membership fees and generally I believe they are happy. My suggestion is check your constitution - see if there is a provision to kick out or change the management company. Try to get sufficient support from among the owners and do it - get rid of CLC as management company. Take them to court for surcharge fees which are not covered in the constitution. Not paying your maintenance fees or just giving your week back to CLC is exactly what they want. CLC get more inventory at no cost, thereby increasing availability to the people who – in my opinion – have foolishly bought into their points system. Owning pure points leaves you with very few rights, if CLC sell the resort on, then you can’t go back. (through RCI maybe). CLC can increase the points required for a specific week (that way you have to buy more points). You own nothing, not even a right to use a week. Just points which give you no guarantee that you will get a holiday. Even though the Club system has its flaws, at least you know that you can go back to your own resort/week regardless. The best points system, in my opinion, is one like the RCI system whereby you still “own” your week. You can always leave the system and go back to using your week. With pure points you’re stuck with them (and can’t sell them on the open market unlike your fixed week – correct me if I’m wrong). Obviously, RCI give preference to points owners – they want to convert everyone to points, but of all the systems it may be the best. Bye for now. [ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]

Replies:

[> Subject: Re: CLC Management etc Author: Dave [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 05:08:39 11/24/04 Wed Thanks you the info. However you have left one concern in my mind. As I was the person who raised the issue of CLC only owning the mangement rights, if as you say I am wrong and CLC actually own the bricks and mortar etc., how can the members vote to stop CLC being the management company. Surely this is where they make most of their money and any such action will possibly lead to CLC then selling the resort that you suggest they own. To my knowledge Paradise Management never owned the resort and the resort is still owned by the developers. Paradise Management only sold to CLC the right to manage. Does anyone else have a view and how can we find out exactly what CLC do own. I thought we did "own" weeks of timeshare as per our deed. I'm still looking for a full copy of the constitution. Has anyone got one ? Dave

[> [> Subject: Re: CLC Management etc Author: Phil [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 08:07:08 11/24/04 Wed Firstly, I would suggest you check through all the paperwork you may have about your purchase. This may clarify your situation – now as I don’t have any paperwork for PC I am basing my post on the knowledge I have of timeshare and the resort in general. I could be wrong. As Paradise Group, the original developer (also known legally as the founder member), is a British company it is more than likely that PC is run under the club system. Here is a quote from the documents of a Club I do know to be run under this system. “The Founder Members of X have formed a club known as X (“the Club”) through which the Club’s members acquire certain exclusive rights of occupation of apartments at different resort complexes. The Club Members’ rights are subject to and dependent upon the Club Member continuing to comply with the terms of the Constitution, Deed of Trust and Management Agreement and in particular the payment of annual management charges and any other charges properly levied on the Club Members as and when they fall due.” The most important thing here is “rights of occupation”. When you purchase timeshare under the Club system you are usually buying rights of occupation and membership of a Club. Very rarely is the system deeded as well – obviously if you have a deed then the case is different. However, if, as several people have said on here, all you need to do to relinquish your membership/ownership is to return your certificate signed on the reverse, it would appear to me that all you have is a right of occupation. You would be right in that Paradise Management never owned the resorts, however they would have had the management contract to run the resorts (but Paradise Group Limited or one of its companies as developer did own the resort). CLC will have bought lock stock and barrell, including amongst other things the management company or management contract (from their website “Club La Costa owns 20 resorts outright in Spain, on the Costa del Sol and Tenerife, Scotland and Austria.”). If this was not the case, I don't think CLC could change things willy nilly around the resorts as it has done/is doing. Paradise Group have no interests whatsoever in Paradise Club. The management contract is awarded either by the Club or founder member (developer). Now as the Club is essentially its members and if the constitution allows it, then the Club can remove the contract from the current management company. This is what Loch Rannoch did. MacDonalds haven't sold on the resort.

[> Subject: Re: CLC Management etc Author: Ian [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 18:21:48 11/24/04 Wed >Phil is absolurely correct - I have checked my documentation and it quite clearly says that I have purchased the right of occupation of the unittogether with the use of all onsite facilities subject to the terms and conditions set out in the constitution. Anyone who thinks they have purchased the deed to the property is I am afraid mistaken or misled. I also agree wholeheartedly with Phils view on CLC points - what persuades rational people to part with more cash and move from something tangible - a deed guaranteeing the right to occupy a specific unit at a specific time to points which carry no guarantees whatsoever. Under the constitution each unit can only be sold for 52 weeks per year - there appears to be no cap on how many points they issue- and when they feel the need to drag in a bit more money they can merely increase the points requirement for each unit so points holders will have to buy more or go to a lower class resort. Presumably we shall reach the stage when the original stock of points will buy so little that the management cost of keeping them will be uneconomic and people will begin surrendering their points rather than continue to pay the management fee !! deja vu Why people fall for the tedious and predictable patter of the reps when at home I'm sure they would not give them the time of day amazes me - it must be the sun and the sangria. What can be done ? Difficult given the apathy of the membership. Only about 80 attended the agm and most of those to air relatively minor grievances.Our committee is clearly weak and still not communicating broadly with the membership. I would expect our representatives to review a site such as this and the CLC members site regularly and to use it as a means of mass communication - why are they not doing so ?

[> Subject: Re: CLC Management etc Author: Dave [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 00:25:30 11/25/04 Thu Thanks for the update Phil. Of course by deed I mean certificate of right of occupancy, which to a degree means I "own" my apartment for that particular week every year and as such acts as a deed should I wish to or be able to sell the right of occupancy. Thanks to the help of 2 members I will shortly have copies of both the CLC constitution and the old Paradise Club constitution. I will study the two and see just how difficult we can make life for CLC over a number of issues. I will keep this website informed. Dave

[> Subject: Re: CLC Management etc Author: JJ [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 13:12:38 11/28/04 Sun Thanks Phil for your advice, I totaly agree with you that we should get rid of a management company that cannot run the Paradise Club at a reasonable cost, £367 for a 1 Bed apartment is disgusting charges. I followed the Loch Rannoch situation, and more power to them for what they have done. The problem is, how do we contact all the owners.

[> [> Subject: Re: CLC Management etc Author: R.B. [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 13:32:48 12/21/04 Tue >Thanks Phil for your advice, I totaly agree with you >that we should get rid of a management company that >cannot run the Paradise Club at a reasonable cost, >£367 for a 1 Bed apartment is disgusting charges. >I followed the Loch Rannoch situation, and more power >to them for what they have done. > >The problem is, how do we contact all the owners. The Paradise management at Bournemouth would have a copy, do we have a mole?