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Date Posted: 21:31:57 03/17/03 Mon
Author: Gwynevere1
Author Host/IP: dhcp0228.hrn.resnet.group.upenn.edu / 165.123.185.122
Subject: Can we start General Review and Discussion of B/X "Through Different Eyes"?
Since it is March 17th, I thought I would start this thread. I hope that is all right. I just want to jump at the opportunity to post when the board is actually working!
My Review:
*shrug* That was my basic reaction to this story. Not good. Not bad. Just there.
The Good:
Logical progression of events, obviously well-planned.
Good flow.
Clear writing style.
Correct grammar, spelling, and punctuation used throughout.
The Bad:
The author did not capture the characters' voices well. There was no true distinction amongst the gang. This error was particularly glaring since the story was supposed to be from a first person Buffy voice. Although the author tried to sprinkle the writing with Buffyisms taken straight from the show, the overall effort seemed forced.
One aspect of the text which made no sense to me was why exactly Buffy was attracted to Xander. Not that I have any objection to B/X or anything, but these existing feelings are not at all supported by the canon of the series. If Buffy is loving Xander, an author needs to explain why these feelings are occurring now. What did Xander do that changed Buffy's opinion of him? What did someone else do? Why, if these feelings always existed, did Buffy never act on them?
A few other problems: Xander seemed to smooth and self-assured. It was like reading the Suave!Xander half from "The Replacement." Also, Buffy herself was too wishy-washy for my taste. Sure, she can angst, but the author need not forget that she is the hero.
Conclusion: I know that I probably won't have kept reading it if it were not required for this club (esp. since I didn't finish the last one in time). Overall, not a bad effort, but nothing great either.
Overall score: 75
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Re: Can we start General Review and Discussion of B/X "Through Different Eyes"? -- Bri, 00:50:34 03/18/03 Tue (cpe-66-1-253-227.co.sprintbbd.net/66.1.253.227)
Okay, I have a few issues with this piece too. Even though I wrote it, and genuinely am fairly pleased with how it turned out, there were a few things I wish I would have done better.
First off, the Buffy jealousy bit. It was overused. There are several points in the show where she gives in to irrational jealousy, but she's normally not so vocal about it. Also, even though there were sound reasons for her jealousy, I could have come up with different ways of showing her displeasure.
I'll give you guys this one, as an insight from the author's mind that you don't always get: I'm a core W/X 'shipper, and that was coming through too clearly in this fic. I wrote the B/X as a challenge, as it's not a 'ship I normally care very much for. I felt like I was forcing the jealousy as a catalyst for Xander's reassurance that he loves Buffy, not Willow. I wish I could have come up with something more appropriate to fuel the emotional insecurities.
Okay, the other part I had a major issue with is, as many people have commented on, the uncharacteristically serious side to Xander. Again, as with Buffy's jealousy, there were many hints that Xander had that serious, quiet and mature side to him, even though it wasn't displayed very often. Most notably, his negative responses to Buffy in the early seasons were based on her irrational/irresponsible behavior, or anything she did that endangered Willow. In this fic, I used both of those devices to bring out his mature side. Unfortunately, I *did* overdo that and it made him seem more season five or six-ish.
There were quite a few things I liked about this fic, too. I thought that I did a very good job of capturing Buffy's voice-in early season one, she was very girlish and funny and reacted before she thought. I really like the first scene with her mother, when she got defensive about the way she'd dealt with Xander. I thought that was something she really would have done at that point.
Secondly, I liked Willow. Most of the B/Xers who read this fic as I posted it got mad, saying that Willow was "manipulating" Buffy and Xander, whereas I felt she was entirely in character. She was wounded but tried to be supportive, just as Willow would have been in the first couple seasons. She was thoughtful and considerate of both her best friends.
This is another side note-there were complaints that Willow "got over" Xander too quickly. I wrote that part at the same time I was going through a nearly identical situation. And maybe a lot of people have never felt this, but it *is* possible to just wake up one day and be "over it." Not so much so that there's no longer any feelings there, 'cause Lord knows you'll always keep them inside you in some way, but you can realize overnight that it doesn't hurt anymore, not if you don't let it. And that's the realization I had Willow come to. It fit the way I thought she would deal with the situation.
Lastly, I liked Xander and Willow's plot to give Buffy a day of normalcy. One of her chief complaints has always been that she wanted to be a normal girl, do normal things and go out with normal guys, but it was more prevalent in the first few seasons. I liked that Xander caught that. He could be incredibly intuitive, when he wanted to be. Unfortunately, the writers don't let that show except every now and then.
Overall, I thought it was good. Not my best effort, not by far, but I didn't think it sucked. I give it an 82/100. (Of course, I've graded all the fics generously, including the ones from last session. LOL)
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Re: Can we start General Review and Discussion of B/X "Through Different Eyes"? -- Kelso, 02:31:43 03/18/03 Tue (c66.190.39.48.fdl.wi.charter.com/66.190.39.48)
What I liked:
-The story had a very sweet tone. Fluff, to me, is generally a good thing, and I much prefer this sort of story to those that are heavy on the angst. It was a nice light read, though not *too* light. The material dealing with Willow helped ground it and of course Willow's feelings for Xander were a significant issue.
-It was straightforward and easy to follow.
-I liked the fact that it was set in the first season. I don't much care for B/X, but I find it much more palatable in fanfic that I think I ever could on the show. And for me, if this pairing was ever going to happen, the windows of opportunity were greatest by far in S1, early S3, and S4.
-No spelling mistakes that I caught.
-Generally, I liked the Willow and Xander characterizations. The issue of Willow's crush on Xander was handled well, not just brushed aside or ignored. Maybe she got over things a bit too quickly; maybe not. The speed didn't bother me much, though.
-I also enjoyed the introduction of Oz, which of course happened before he ever appeared on the show.
-Good use of humor.
-The story held my interest throughout. I never reached a point where I really wanted to quit. Since this pairing is far from one of my favorites, that means more than if I said it about a B/S or a B/A story, for instance.
What I didn't care for:
-Not a big thing, but I'll mention it anyway. I wish author's notes had appeared right above the text, instead of on a different page that wasn't even linked to the story. When I started reading, I had no clue about the time setting, who the speaker was, etc. I figured it out as I read but it would have been better if I'd had the basic info going in.
-Setting was after "The Pack," where Xander was possessed by the hyena spirit. But it was also after "Angel," because in the story Xander knew Angel was a vampire. What then of Buffy's feelings for Angel, which really came out strongly in the "Angel" episode? They seemingly did not exist here. For some reason, Buffy suddenly loved Xander and Angel was basically no one. I saw no real resolution of the Angel situation, no moment when Buffy decided she was "over" her feelings for him and could move on. She hardly seemed to give a darn about him at all.
-What made Buffy decide she loved Xander? Because she saw a dark side of him in "The Pack," as was stated in the story? That dark side wasn't really Xander, though. It was the hyena spirit that had possessed him, and Buffy had to beat him off of her with, well, not a stick, but a desk. And even if S1 Buffy actually was attracted to darkness, at that point she wouldn't have admitted it to anyone, even herself. She was more likely to admire Xander's good qualities instead. That element was mentioned a bit in the fic but not enough to really work for me. I just felt like Buffy's love for Xander came from basically nowhere. I needed more basis for it.
-Factual error. Both Buffy and Xander stated they were 15. When the show began, though, Buffy was already 16. Xander had to be, too, because he's older than Buffy.
-Some technical errors, average of about one per page, including shifts into present tense and a number of missing commas (as in "Hey[MISSING COMMA] Wills").
-Most of the time, Buffy's voice was good, but at times it felt too cloying and squealy even for S1 Buffy.
-Why was Buffy so angry when she went home and found Angel talking to her mom? I would think she'd have been more curious and worried, wondering what could possibly have happened to make him show up, but she was downright mad, to the point of throwing the door open, snapping at Angel, and glaring at him.
Rating: 71.
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Re: Can we start General Review and Discussion of B/X "Through Different Eyes"? -- Leatrix, 03:38:41 03/18/03 Tue (httpproxy.clear.net.nz/203.97.2.243)
First person stories are always difficult to read when the voice isn't quite right. Something about Buffy and Xander's characters isn't quite there with this fic, which detracted from the story. In saying that I think the author has made a valiant attempt to try and capture the feel of S1 Buffy.
In light of how the series has progressed, attempting to write such a piece that reflects S1 and the way relationships *might* have developed is pretty gutsy. The story would probably benefit from some tighter editing, but apart from that its perfectly plausible.
My score 75.
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Re: Can we start General Review and Discussion of B/X "Through Different Eyes"? -- Chani, 08:41:29 03/18/03 Tue (modemcable065.54-130-66.mtl.mc.videotron.ca/66.130.54.65)
Sorry if I gave my review before the appropriate time but I won't be able to do it next week (overbooked week in prospect!)
I read all the chapters, and I am not even a B/X! I am far from being a B/X actually!
Frankly, it's hard for me to believe in this ship, but there are good ideas in this fiction:
1) Put it early in the Buffyverse, just after "Pang", before Buffy knew the truth about Angel! I always thought that her crush for Angel has increased when she discovered the whole ensouled vampire stuff because it was so poetic as Giles said it. It is what Stendhal called "cristallisation"...So B/X could have happened before "Angel" indeed. IMO if there is a good "time" for this ship, it is right then, or during season 3....
2) Buffy being attracted by Xander because of the hyena thing... Why not? Sounds like it was a catalyst, and it is plausible. I am rather surprised that the BX shippers went this way though. But at the time, it is plausible because Buffy hasn't experienced the Bad Boy attraction yet, she was very young so she could have find him suddenly appealing and sexy. This way wouldn't work for a late in developping B/X ship, but I can believe it there.
3) Buffy's thoughts in the first chapter are quite funny:
"Scratch bad friend. I知 a horrible, evil friend. I知 not even a friend. I知 an enemy. I知 Cordelia. Eww. God no. I知 not *that* bad!"
So Buffy's behaviour is rather credible in this story....I don't think she is really out of character. However
I have to agree about the dialogues being hard to buy! They don't ring well for teenagers. And there is a lot of dialogues in this fic!
I also have a few problems:
- Xander says he is fifteen...Wasn't he sixteen????? Besides I don't recognize his "voice", the voice he had in season 1.
- There is another issue concerning Angel....the way he is dropped in the Summers House bothers me. Who is this man supposed to be for Joyce at the time? Joyce should have wondered about him...It doesn't make sense.
- I don't believe in Willow running to Angel either! Besides she accepts the new couple too easily in the end IMO (I can't help remmebering her crying in the bathroom after she discovered the Xander/Faith thing!).
I have the feeling that the author was too quick, wrote too quick. Yet the story had a potential. The B/X couple is rather cute...and, in a way, I understand that the B/X shippers chose this story to represent this "normal" ship....but it was like if season 6 Xander was dating season 1 Buffy! Yet this Xander's voice isn't really season 6 Xander's voice either.... Besides the choice of a POV fic, and the amount of dialogues or inner monologues leave me wanting more. A POV fic allows explanations and descriptions too...The backstory is barely touched. We don't see The Slayer a lot here....
So I'll give it 65/100.
By the way I don't understand why the marks 60-69 are called " low average" here. If 100 is the hightest mark, 50 should be right the average! I'm pointing that out because I don't think I'll say this story is low average....
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Re: Can we start General Review and Discussion of B/X "Through Different Eyes"? -- SaraKat, 14:59:20 03/19/03 Wed (lsanca1-ar4-254-042.biz.dsl.gtei.net/4.33.254.42)
Okay, here's my review of "Through Different Eyes"
Overall, I enjoyed this fic very much. I enjoyed it when Bri first posted it and I enjoyed it again reading it for the club. I enjoyed seeing what could/should(that's the BXer in me talking! ;) ) have happened post-The Pack. I could see how the Hyena-Xander was attractive to Buffy and opened her eyes to the possibility of there being more to Xander than just him just being her "Xander-shaped-friend". Buffy had already proved that dark mysterious men were attractive to her ie. Angel. I also greatly enjoyed seeing bright, happy, funny Season 1 Buffy. Too many of the fics I read these days feature a dark Buffy that I don't recognize. Overall, this is one of my favorite BX fics because of this. It's light, it's fluffy, and it's leaves me with a smile on my face.
I do have some complaints though, that upon further inspection of the fic, made me change what my inital, gut-reaction rating would have been. The Xander in this story does seem a bit too mature or too much like the Xander of Season 6. And although I did, for the most part, like the interaction between Willow and Xander, Willow bugged me. She's always come off, IMHO, as being manipulative in the first two seasons and that comes through very clearly in this fic.
Other than that, I enjoyed this fic. Like I said before, it's light, it's fluffy, and it leaves me with a smile on my face....a sure sign of enjoyment. And isn't that what fanfics about?
My rating: 88/100
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Re: Can we start General Review and Discussion of B/X "Through Different Eyes"? -- SaraKat, 15:04:38 03/19/03 Wed (lsanca1-ar4-254-042.biz.dsl.gtei.net/4.33.254.42)
Okay, here's my review of "Through Different Eyes"
Overall, I enjoyed this fic very much. I enjoyed it when Bri first posted it and I enjoyed it again reading it for the club. I enjoyed seeing what could/should(that's the BXer in me talking! ;) ) have happened post-The Pack. I could see how the Hyena-Xander was attractive to Buffy and opened her eyes to the possibility of there being more to Xander than just him just being her "Xander-shaped-friend". Buffy had already proved that dark mysterious men were attractive to her ie. Angel. I also greatly enjoyed seeing bright, happy, funny Season 1 Buffy. Too many of the fics I read these days feature a dark Buffy that I don't recognize. Overall, this is one of my favorite BX fics because of this. It's light, it's fluffy, and it's leaves me with a smile on my face.
I do have some complaints though, that upon further inspection of the fic, made me change what my inital, gut-reaction rating would have been. The Xander in this story does seem a bit too mature or too much like the Xander of Season 6. And although I did, for the most part, like the interaction between Willow and Xander, Willow bugged me. She's always come off, IMHO, as being manipulative in the first two seasons and that comes through very clearly in this fic.
Other than that, I enjoyed this fic. Like I said before, it's light, it's fluffy, and it leaves me with a smile on my face....a sure sign of enjoyment. And isn't that what fanfics about?
My rating: 88/100
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Re: Can we start General Review and Discussion of B/X "Through Different Eyes"? -- Molloch, 07:55:19 03/20/03 Thu (NoHost/203.55.173.3)
Well I have to say I liked this fic. It made me remember the Scooby gang back in the old days and I always hoped way back then that Buffy and Xander would get together.
The story did not seem to have any bad spelling mistakes nor grammatical errors. It was an enjoyable read and like SaraKat it left me with a smile on my face.
I did have an issue with there not being a part at the start of the piece to explain where abouts it sat in terms of the story we know. I spent the first few paragraphs a bit confused as to when this was all supposed to have happened. Buffy and Xander also seemed slightly off. I do agree with others that Xander seemed to be a bit too old for the piece as it was written. I also would have liked the way Willow met Oz to have been fairly similar to the show as I liked the fact that they shared a high intelligence. There didn't seem to be a lot of background to them meeting.
But I did like this fic and thought it was well written.
I'm giving it a 81/100
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Re: Can we start General Review and Discussion of B/X "Through Different Eyes"? -- PJzallday, 20:11:57 03/20/03 Thu (px1so.cg.shawcable.net/24.71.223.140)
First off, I've standardized my grading for all the fics. I've taken the recommended "Critical Questions when Reviewing Fan Fiction" and alotted each a possible mark when added together results in the final "grade" --- call that the school teacher in me trying to get out, but... well, it's a thing.
Secondly, I don't consider the labels attached to the grading scale quite appropriate. In my mind, 70s are good, 60s: fair, 50s average...., so I hope the author will consider that when she sees the final number I've assigned.
With that said...
My MAIN difficulty with "Though Different Eyes" was the voice of the story and unfortunately that influences marks given in several of the categories. Although the narration and dialogue were quite "clean" with the occasional "Buffyisms" added in, I didn't get the sense that these were teenagers talking --- particularly not Xander. The dialogue and perhaps to an extent the very nature of some conversations were too mature for the characters from early season one. (Buffy's Sunnydale Tour seemed a bit "deep" for season 1 Buffy; and Xander's being so sexually overt about her wardrobe choices for example.)
The narration (particularly in the early parts) and general plot I thought were well presented, and there were several cute/funny lines used by various characters which were in keeping with the tone of the show.
I had some trouble also with the idea that Buffy would be attracted to Xander following his attacking her in "The Pack" (1x06). Early in season 1, I think Buffy was still very idealistic and the whole "bad boy" thing hadn't yet hit her. Still, this was a unique place to start the story, and given the way the author presented Buffy as being more sexuall-charged/minded (than I think she was on the show), it IS plausible that such an attraction could have developped following the event.
The jealousy (both Buffy and Willow's) was believable particularly given that Buffy and Willow hadn't known each other all that long (thus no deep-seeded friendship to really curb one's negative feelings). While it's reasonable for Buffy not to want to hurt Willow, it's also entirely likely that she'd want to have what she wanted: Xander. So that was fine, as presented.
Willow running off when she discovered the relationship (and feeling all bitter, etc) was also VERY believable. Her running to Angel was not. She knew even less about Angel that early in season 1 than Buffy. It simply made no sense to me that she would seek out a stranger --- and come to think of it, how did she find him? (Perhaps a rewrite wherein she runs into him accidentally --- or she's attacked just wandering around and he just happens to be there to save her???) Further to that subplot, I'm not clear on what landed Oz in Willow's hospital room.
Summing up: the story, however well-written and plotted, didn't ring true with me because of the voice(s). The author has a good style, but in this case, I don't think it meshes well with the time-frame.
60/100
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I'm glad to see that you share my feelings about the grading scale! -- Chani :- ), 08:39:55 03/21/03 Fri (curie.noos.net/212.198.0.93)
Must be a teacher thing!
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I have to wonder if you guys just aren't familiar with the American grading scale... -- Bri, 10:19:18 03/21/03 Fri (cpe-66-1-253-227.co.sprintbbd.net/66.1.253.227)
Not that it's any real big deal, because I understand where you're coming from with the grades you gave. But the way our school system works, this is what each grade means:
A (excellent) is 90-100
B (above average) is 80-89
C (average) is 70-79
D (below average) 60-69
F (failing) is 59 and below
So even though a 50 is halfway to 100 and should be average, in American schools, that would mean you were failing and would demonstrate a considerable lack of knowledge concerning the material. Likewise, a 60 or 65 would mean you are at least passing the class, but doing so just barely.
And if you guys already knew this, let me say I feel like a major idiot. LOL But I thought, just in case you're not American (or have never taught/been taught in the American school system), that would at least be an explanation of why the scores are set up the way they are, and why a score of 65 is actually pretty bad.
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Thanks for these details Bri! -- Chani *answers and...a question*, 15:51:28 03/21/03 Fri (curie.noos.net/212.198.0.93)
Well guessed, I am not American! Actually this scale is pretty weird for me...I feel something is missing with your system between excellent and above average, some levels like good, and very good. Besides there is a big room from 0 to 59!
I hope you have understood that 65/100 wasn't bad for me! In France the grading scale is from 0 to 20, and when I give a 10/20 it is average...8-9/20 is below average (or 45-40/100) and a bad mark would be from 0 to 7 (0-35/100). I have graded some papers lately (3 days ago) and the lowest mark I gave was a 4/20 or if you prefer a 20/100!
I gave higher than a 90 here just once, it was a 95, I did love this story (it wasn't even a B/S fic by the way but a non ship one involving Dawn and Ethan!). It was the only time I've given more than 89. For me 100 would be the perfection so 80-90 is already very good!
If I had to mark a fanfic I've found really below average I would give it a mark below 50. I couldn't go higher really. It happened once about a X/W fic (I gave it a 40) ...I was rather surprised because other posters gave it marks above 50 while their reviews were sometimes "worse" than mine!
Now my question: Did the students get sometimes marks below 50, or did they just get a F in US?
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That's news to me. -- PJzallday, 21:38:19 03/21/03 Fri (px1so.cg.shawcable.net/24.71.223.140)
I wasn't aware of your grading system --- I'm Canadian and have never attended nor taught at an American school. (So thanks for the information.)
Here we'd still consider anything about 80% excellent (and that would be translated to an "A" grade where appropriate). Things would go down from there in 10% blocks. Admittedly school systems would consider grades in the 60s (which would be Cs) to be average and the 50s (which would be "D"s) below average so I did wrongly label those ones.
Of course, hit university and the sliding scale and percentages and what their equivalent number grades (whether out of 4 or 9 depending on the institution) might turn out to be are anybody's guess!
My point (in explaining both how I came up with the "grade" and my alterations to the labels given by the group rating scale)is simply that I don't think your story was "below average" and that a solid 60% is not something of which to be ashamed.
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Re: Can we start General Review and Discussion of B/X "Through Different Eyes"? -- Doe, 20:55:55 03/23/03 Sun (proxy.ia3.marketscore.com/66.119.33.135)
My review:
I liked Buffy's thoughts in the first part. I thought the author did a nice job of showing the W/X closeness. I had trouble buying that Willow would go to Angel. I didn't find the Buffy/Xander relationship that believable. Buffy went from seeing him as a friend into boyfriend material a little to fast.
My score 70/100
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Re: Can we start General Review and Discussion of B/X "Through Different Eyes"? -- Spike's cutie, 05:07:46 03/24/03 Mon (netcache-2002.public.lawson.webtv.net/209.240.198.61)
Hi~
Bri, I liked the fact that it was light & fluffy. That being from a person who said the last ship I would ever vote for would be B/X.
Anyway, I did have some trouble with Willow running to Angel, & the characters were not that realistic to me. Plus, weren't you kinda saying that Buffy does like a monster in her man? To me, thats not why B/Xers like that ship. Isn't it cause its the normal boy getting the hero? I think we needed a little more leverage on why she suddenly was head over heels for her "Xander-shaped friend"?
I give it a 70/100
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