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Date Posted: 17:03:02 10/21/02 Mon
Author: KatLurkin
Author Host/IP: pcp02303222pcs.manass01.va.comcast.net / 68.52.163.61
Subject: General Review & Discussion: What She Deserves by Herself-B/S
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My thoughts... -- Leatrix, 04:49:18 10/22/02 Tue (netcache2-acld.auckland.clix.net.nz/203.97.2.243)
Well first out of the gate...
I'm not a big fan of slash - in fact I usually avoid it, and although I was part of the group, I actually found this quite hard to read initially.
After putting aside my EEWW feelings, I was actually very surprised with the story. I loved that things weren't "happy happy joy joy" and the fact that it examined the impact on both the main characters. Other people (ie ships) weren't bashed and Buffy and Spike had very human feelings and reactions. I like that Spike did a lot of soul searching, but so did Buffy.
Overall, its a very good fic which I rate at 90.
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Re: General Review & Discussion: What She Deserves by Herself-B/S -- KatLurkin, 13:59:03 10/22/02 Tue (NoHost/162.70.244.40)
I really did not like this story at all. But that has to do with personal taste. I could recognize objectively that it was well written, and has a good pace. But I found much of the subject matter . . . oooky. There was a bit too much of bondage, torture, slave imagry and facts for me. Plus I really didn't like Buffy having a series of one-night-stands or Spike working as a male prostitute, ick.
Plus. . . spike was such a wuss.
And I must say, last session I was signed up for Spuffy team and my favorite author writes spuffy, so I love the ship, just not this story.
I will give this story a 70, purely for the ability of the writer to craft a story well.
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Re: General Review & Discussion: What She Deserves by Herself-B/S -- SaraKat, 17:31:46 10/22/02 Tue (lsanca1-ar4-254-042.biz.dsl.gtei.net/4.33.254.42)
As a B/X fan, I was prepared to not like this story. That said, I actually found myself enjoying what I was reading. The author has a gift for being able to detail each scene, to the point of where I could close my eyes and actually see it happening. While I still am not a Spuffy fan, and did not greatly enjoy the scenes of Spike being tortured(there's just no other word for it, whether he asked for it or not, he was simply being tortured by that other man) I could understand how such events could come to be. The author made it very clear why Spike and Buffy were behaving the way they were and it was not out of character, in my opinion at least. I may not have liked the pairing but I did like the story, so I give it a 90.
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Re: General Review & Discussion: What She Deserves by Herself-B/S -- Jade, 18:39:58 10/22/02 Tue (inktomi3-nth.server.ntl.com/62.253.32.6)
I went to read this story, with as much an open mind as I could muster. I have read B/S fics in the past, and quite enjoyed them. I didn't really like this one.
It was very well written and everything, but I just couldn't really see it happening in my mind, which I think is important for a story.
I don't think Spike would let himself be 'raped' or 'tortured' by other men as the story went. He was a total wimp in this fic. I like Spike strong and fiesty, so this was a bad point for me.
And the way it kept saying he hated Buffy and suddenly was back in love with her.
I give it a 65, for being well written, but not plausible in my opinion.
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Re: General Review & Discussion: What She Deserves by Herself-B/S -- Bri, 02:51:55 10/23/02 Wed (cpe-66-1-253-227.co.sprintbbd.net/66.1.253.227)
Well, I started out not really liking this story at all. I intensely dislike m/m slash, although I can read it, and I completely can't stand BDSM, so the scenes with Spike and Jack just irked me. (Maybe it's because the whole time, I kept envisiong Jack as Jack McPhee, from Dawson's Creek. LOL) Plus, I was disgusted with Spike's pitiful, woe is me, I'm all tortured and melancholy and I want to play pseudo-Angel act.
However, once they got out of New York, I really started appreciating it more. The explanation for their actions was detailed, the story progressed reasonably well as far as speed and clarity, overall it was very well written. I believed the motives and the logic for both Buffy and Spike, and I could see exactly where they were coming from. Probably what I loved most about it was that even though it started off dark, it segued into something hopeful, but not completely sappy and with a contrived happy ending.
I'd like to rate it around an 80 because of my dislike of the m/m BDSM, but that would be detracting from the merits of the story based on personal bias. So, overall, I'd have to give it a 90.
Bri
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My thoughts.. -- ancientpeas, 09:47:03 10/23/02 Wed (CPE014370023562.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com/24.102.13.132)
I ended up not liking it very much actually. I read it three times to give it a shot. The first time I liked it better than the second and third. I felt badly for not liking it more.
It was well written. I will give her that. And I liked that she didn't gloss over the darker side of his sexuality. I didn't mind Buffy's one night stands. I really liked that they didn't have her declaring her love for him (I always find it a copout when she loves him right away).
And I agree that once they got out of NYC I liked the story more.
I think what got to me about the whole story was the gloomy undertone. Which was probably the intension. However, I tend to like stuff that's a little more happy. Not fluffy but happy and funny.
but I'll give it a 73 because I think it was well written, my personal bias aside.
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General Review & Discussion: What She Deserves by Herself-B/S -- morgain, 10:02:58 10/23/02 Wed (modemcable225.121-203-24.mtl.mc.videotron.ca/24.203.121.225)
I must say that I really enjoyed this story... well, perhaps “enjoyed” is not the right word, because I found the content disturbing. But I found that it was the most powerful way to explore the themes of self-loathing and self-contempt, penance and atonement, a first step towards forgiveness [of self and others], redemption, and reconciliation. This story tackled difficult subjects and issues, but does it in an admirable way.
Let’s face it... For many fans the attempted rape of Buffy was an action that Spike as a character could never come back from. Herself attempts to create a story that taps into what many Spike fans, Spuffy enthusiasts, and redemptionistas see within the character: the extreme horror that dawned on Spike that night in the bathroom and the shattering of his illusions that he would never hurt Buffy, the attempt to make a change so that he would never hurt her again, and that ultimately Spike does try to get it right, only to have things turn out so wrong.
The story draws on many innuendo that have been sprinkled in the back story of Spike, Dru, Angel, and Darla. Therefore it is no surprise to me that Spike could be essentially bisexual. It gives some interesting clues to his life with Dru through the ghosts that haunt him, and the depth of his evil. The fact that Spike uses sex and pain and terror [how he lived his unlife and the crime he committed against Buffy] against himself as his preferred method of punishment, I thought was inspired, as well as the fact that he has sworn off women as a way of doing penance. It was totally believable to me that Spike would allow himself to be raped; it made sense to me as a way of atoning within Spike’s unique code of “honour”, his way of dealing with the world. It may not be “right” morally, but Spike would often do things like that. I also liked the fact that the ramifications of the soul were overwhelming to him, and not a quick fix. I also liked Buffy’s notion that Spike’s liking of Dawn was somehow manipulated by the monks. I had not read that before.
I found their lovemaking scene at the end, a way of sexual healing, was touching, sensitive, and still not the panacea for everything. The aftermath of the scene, and the decision to go home separately, for me, was more realistic that the usual “great f*ck” as a solution to all of their problems. For me, generally the plot flowed logically; however, the device of getting Buffy to New York [a vacation and shopping spree] seemed farfetched to me.
But plot is not this story most powerful element. For me it was the characterizations. From their first meeting in the coffee shop when Spike assumes his usual bravado, shoving his sexual relationship in Buffy’s face in order to forestall any connection to Buffy until the end when they part ways temporarily, Spike was totally believable to me. Jack, also, was a believable character to me: a young man broken at too early an age because of life’s hardships. He relationship with Spike had an intriguing mixture of love, pain, and desperation to be loved and cared for. I felt sad reading about him, knowing there are many young men living on the streets of my city who are just like Jack.
Though other fans may not agree, I found the mind space that Buffy was interesting: though she broke off their sexual relationship in AYW, she still had a sense of “possessing” Spike as her tool, which in some ways is playing out this season. Her ambivalence about her liaison with Spike was clear: not too horny, not too disgusted. After their sexual games and the attempted rape, Buffy does begin to see her role in creating a confusing situation [I am NOT saying she is at fault for the attempted rape, but there were many mutual and confusing patterns of communication in their sexual relationship]. Buffy also addresses the broken promise of the St. Crispin’s Day speech in S5, an event many redemptionistas see as very important. Her attempt to help him also was believable for me [which is why I am finding some of her behaviour confusing this season]. Buffy has always been kind and considerate, and regardless of what you think her feelings are for Spike, there is a reason why she did not let Xander stake him after the attempted rape, and why she asked Clem when he would return to Sunnydale. Her want to help Spike heal emerged from these feelings.
However, I would agree with an reviewer above, that I would not see Buffy as engaging in a series of one-night stands. To make this believable, Herself should have provided a more concrete rationale for this happening.
Written in-between season 6 and 7, I found this to be a unique treatment of B/S after the attempted rape and Spike’s souling. Herself deals with the soul / chip issue the way many viewers had interpreted his behaviour: another example of Spike’s plans turning out wrong. Though this was never my view, Herself creates a plausible explanation. I also particularly like the dialogue. I could actually here the voices of the characters. And the description of the settings were well drawn. Even the disturbing sexual games / punishments, though distasteful in concept, were described in a powerful way. There was also some much need comic elements in such a dark and angsty story: the Mt Horeb Mustard Museum t-shirt, Buffy’s driving and the dent on the DeSoto [boy, I was glad to see that again!] and an appropriately quippy Buffy.
It was well written with few errors. And the narration is clear.
I would definitely recommend this fanfic, with the caveat that it contains m/m and disturbing BDSM themes.
I give the fic a rating of 93.
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PS. I welcome discussion/debate on any of these points.... -- morgain, 10:34:58 10/23/02 Wed (modemcable225.121-203-24.mtl.mc.videotron.ca/24.203.121.225)
'cause that is what this is all about, eh?
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A big part of a show or a story for me is liking the . .. -- KatLurkin, 16:41:51 10/23/02 Wed (pcp02303222pcs.manass01.va.comcast.net/68.52.163.61)
character. Although I don't like everything Buffy and Spike do in the show, over all I like both of the character in the show. I can actually say that even after last season, though it was close last season LOL.
I do not like the characters in this story. I do agree, the story had a powerful message. But if in the attempt to relay the consequence of a soul and the AR guilt and despair, the author turns the characters into people I don't care about, they loss me.
I can recognize the writing quality of 'herself' and so forth, but I don't like her characters at all. I don't have a problem with Spike's possible bi-sexuality, but between acting all wussy and prostitution torture . . .ick
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I can appreciate that, Kat... -- morgain, 22:34:33 10/23/02 Wed (modemcable225.121-203-24.mtl.mc.videotron.ca/24.203.121.225)
I guess, for me, it was interesting to see the darkness of season 6 extended a bit, more logical playing out of the themes to me. And I think there are many parallels between how ME is portraying Spike in S7, and how Herself does [keeing it relatively PG]
I rather liked the dark themes of season 6, and I found interesting depths to the characters [you know mw and the loving of the Jungian shadows], but I know that a lot of fans disagree with me on that. So perhaps I would add another caveat that if you like S6 you might like this.
Thanks for the comment.
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Re: General Review & Discussion: What She Deserves by Herself-B/S -- Muttley, 19:16:45 10/23/02 Wed (inktomi1-swa.server.ntl.com/213.105.224.4)
Can't say I really enjoyed this story, not because of the pairing,more due to the S&M theme running through it - just not my thing. I also found it a trifle overlong , it took me two attempts to read it but then I do have a short little attention span.
On the plus side I did think it was a very well written story. The characterisation was believable and there were a few nice linguistic touches in there.
I'm going to have to go for 80 in appreciation of the way the story was told, rather than for the enjoyment of the story itself.
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Muttley, I usually dislike BDSM and -- morgain, 09:42:48 10/24/02 Thu (modemcable225.121-203-24.mtl.mc.videotron.ca/24.203.121.225)
and generally don't read it.
But for me the context and purpose of its use made it "understandable".
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Re: General Review & Discussion: What She Deserves by Herself-B/S -- ScarletNicky, 01:37:28 10/24/02 Thu (cache-rk06.proxy.aol.com/152.163.189.70)
I started reading this story back in the Summer, but quickly put it down because I was turned off by the m/m slash. After joining the B/S group, I wound up reading it again because it was one of our contenders for nomination.
To my surprise, I ended up really liking it. I don't so much consider Spike to be bisexual in the story, although in some interpretations of vampire lore, most notably Anne Rice, all vamps are a little bit bi. Instead, I saw his relationship with Jack as a means of punishing himself for the attempted rape. In fact, arranging for his own rape and torture as penance strikes me as a really Spike thing to do, as is his attempted suicide. He's always been proactive and a bit rash, as the soul quest demonstrates.
Although this is a somewhat bleak story, which I think is unavoidable due to the way Season 6 ended for B/S, I loved the characters throughout "Deserves." That Spike verbalizes that he doesn't want to be forgiven or believe he deserves it makes him all the more forgivable. But the character I liked best was Buffy. I haven't liked ME's Buffy since before OaFA, but I think if the show presented a Buffy with as much heart and compassion as Herself's portrayal, I doubt there would be any of what is being labeled as "Buffy bashing" on the boards.
So, despite my aversion to m/m slash (an unfortunate choice, as it limits her audience), I'm giving this story a 90.
Nicky
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Re: General Review & Discussion: What She Deserves by Herself-B/S -- treacle antlers, 16:44:26 10/24/02 Thu (host213-1-163-129.in-addr.btopenworld.com/213.1.163.129)
I can't add a great deal to what morgain said, as she pretty much echoed all my feelings about 'What She Deserves'. As I said before it was one of the first fics I've ever read that actually reduced me to tears, the powerful imagery, skilfully crafted dialogue and wonderful IMO characterisations are hallmarks of Herself's writing and I have the utmost respect and admiration for her.
I'll admit that her Buffy and Spike were no means exact carbon copies of the people we see on our screens, but I like to think of really excellent fic as stretching the limits of the characters as well as the imagination of the reader. The fact was I *believed* in her Buffy and Spike and found their motivation, and consequential actions, both compelling and truthful.
As to the slash element, no one can accuse me of being a fan of the genre, but I felt Jack's character was strong enough and Spike's relationship with him believable enough to make it work. I had no qualms with accepting that Spike, in his intensely guilty state, would allow himself to be tortured or that his emotions regarding Buffy would still be confused.
The scene between them at the motel and the bittersweet ending that followed left me feeling both emotionally drained and panting for more. And what more can you ask of a fic? A sequel maybe...which by the way...she's already written.
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I give it a 90 by the way! -- treacle antlers, 06:49:15 10/28/02 Mon (host213-122-84-161.in-addr.btopenworld.com/213.122.84.161)
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Re: General Review & Discussion: What She Deserves by Herself-B/S -- Ozmandayus, 10:24:41 10/25/02 Fri (cache-dm07.proxy.aol.com/205.188.209.75)
It's obvious that this author has an amazing range of ability to write, describe, and grab your attention. Unfortunately for me those abilities could not save this story. I'm not a fan of guy/guy slash but ohne of my friends Mad Poetess is a huge fan and a fantastic writer. I have read soem of her slash work and enojyed it. The slash here felt wrong for some reason. I just couldn't see Spike doing the things he did. Buffy seemed out of character and far to needy for my tastes. The fic dragged toward the middle and just couldn't hold my attention for very long. While I am no fan of Spuffy whatsoever I can push aside all feeling about a ship and judge a story on it's merits. But this fic just didn't feel like the characters I have known. And Buffy herself just didn't feel like the Buffy I know. I can't say I enjoyed this fic very much. I give it a 75.
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Oz.... -- morgain, 23:43:31 10/25/02 Fri (modemcable225.121-203-24.mtl.mc.videotron.ca/24.203.121.225)
How you are well...
Could you provide a link or email me a site where Mad Poetess posts her stuff. I would appreciate it.
Thanks
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Re: General Review & Discussion: What She Deserves by Herself-B/S -- Kaylorin, 13:20:38 10/25/02 Fri (pcp632159pcs.newhvn01.in.comcast.net/68.53.200.184)
TY Kat for reminding me we were doing things different this time around. I read this story when it was suggested,and got it confused with another when Kat brought it up a few days ago. Then I couldn't access the site to refresh my memory until today. Sorry I'm soo late on the review. To which... here I go;
First of... I am not into slash. I can deal with the girl on girl stuff.... cuz my huband likes porn and, even if you;re not into it, you get used to it, but the m/m was a bit weird for me. Still, I thought the story touched on a range of emotions, which is an impressive thing in itself.
As far as mispells and whatnot, None popped out and made me stop reading, so no complaints.
I thought some of the charactizations were slightly off... but in ways relevant to the story.
It made Buffy care for Spike, without it being slammed down your throat (which since I'm a Spuffer I don't mind, but it very annoying sometimes without explination)
I started reading, and had to finish it once I started, so very high marks in that respect.
I too don't agree with Buffy and her one night stands, but Herself is not the first to put our hero in that position in a fic. Unfortunately, you can never tell what soem women may do after an attempted rape. Each person handles, or doesn't handle it, in different ways.
I try to take into account what the author was thinking when he put Spike with another male. Although I I have yet to see any clear tendancies in that direction on the show, I see why the author went that route in the story. In fact his lack of enjoyment was th epoint, so kinda Kuddos to Herself. She played it off well.
Over all, I didn't like the story's theme, but I'll have to admit it was very well done.
91
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Re: General Review & Discussion: What She Deserves by Herself-B/S -- TC, 20:00:17 10/25/02 Fri (A010-0313.AMRL.splitrock.net/64.196.205.59)
First off let me just say that the writer of this fic obviously knows how to write a well structured piece. The descriptions are very well done and they definitely have no problem with writing scenes that are shed with emotion. That being said I still didn't like this fic and it the main reason wasn't because it was B/S but because IMO both Buffy and Spike were written completely out of character. There were a couple scenes here and there where I saw glimpses of the characters I know but they were few and far between. The scene that really threw me was the conversation on the phone with Willow and Buffy. Willow guessing that Cordelia was the person Buffy saw and then guessing Spike was not what Willow would've said at all IMHO. But that's not huge. What really was hard was the amount of M/M slash and darkness of this fic. IMO, the character of Spike would never go for another man.... but since this is fanfic I'll let that slide. Still, what was written in that aspect didn't appeal to me at all. Neither did the way that Buffy was written. I don't know if I could see Buffy just going on a trip and banging mechanics along the way in her car for the hell out it and that's only a small part of what I disagree with in regards to how she was written. But still, overall like I said the fic was structured very well and the descriptions were very good.
I give this fic a 74
TC
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Wolfy's Comments -- Wolfy, 23:40:33 10/25/02 Fri (h002078d98b76.ne.client2.attbi.com/24.218.37.196)
Ok, i tried to keep an open mind. but i found it hard to do at times. im sorry. i just cant see Buffy in that way. dont get me wrong, you do have talent, its just that it needs work.
and im not found of slash. nothing agaisnt you, its just that its hard for me to see M/M coming together. maybe its because, im a guy, but i just cant see it.
it was a solid effort though, and i encourage the author to keep writing. one of my problems with the fic is characterization. you really have to work on that. other than that, good writing.
my grade: 78
White Werewolf
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Re: General Review & Discussion: What She Deserves by Herself-B/S -- Chani, 12:40:31 10/26/02 Sat (curie.noos.net/212.198.0.93)
I didn't want to read it, i thought i wouldn't like it at all, but as i was on holyday i read it today! I am not a big fan of slash and angst and i would have prefered to recommand the joyful "Double Spike", but i found this story very well written. Besides the way the author explores Spike's trauma is very interesting. However Buffy doesn't ring well for me.
my grade: 85
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Re: General Review & Discussion: What She Deserves by Herself-B/S -- Doe, 21:01:15 10/26/02 Sat (proxy.ia3.marketscore.com/66.119.33.135)
This was a well-written story but Buffy and Spike just seemed too out of character for me.I just feel the author didn't give me a reason to believe that the characters would act in the manner they did.
My score 79
Doe
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Re: General Review & Discussion: What She Deserves by Herself-B/S -- JSlayerUK, 17:37:08 10/30/02 Wed (cache-loh-af06.proxy.aol.com/195.93.50.12)
This fic was interesting. See, I found it disturbing. It was a little ooky, but not in a good way. Out of character definately. But with the characters created, it was a good story. I think that on the whole the actual story telling was good. The problem was that it was meant to be fanfic, and one is meant to take the characters already portrayed as they are. This changed Buffy and Spike too much to make it based on the show. As a story in itself, ignoring the characterisations, it was very good. Interesting plot. Thorough and well thought out. I just think it fell back in a sense of "I could never see that happening".
I give it a 70.
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coming in late... -- Girl Guide jones, 18:20:36 11/06/02 Wed (dhcp024-210-034-173.columbus.rr.com/24.210.34.173)
Well, first off, since I'm in the slash group I guess it's no surprise that I didn't have some of the issues with the story that some of you may have...smile
I first read this story before it was selected here, but read it a second time, just to be certain that I didn't miss anything. My review would almost mirror morgain's, for the most part.
Although I was uncomfortable with the thought of Buffy cruising across the country from one one-night-stand to the next, the author supported it well, so I could accept it. I found Spike seeking self-punishment through severe SM and rape to be very in keeping with his character.
I think the point which most impressed me is the strength the author had to introduce a new character and make me interested in him. Jack seemed to be as three-dimensional as both Buffy and Spike, and I didn't find myself skimming past the parts about him as I usually do in most fanfic. It seems that many fanfic writers are not skilled enough to introduce a new person as anything but a transparent plot device. Jack seemed very real to me, and I was as interested in what happened to him as I was in what happened to B&S.
I also liked that everything didn't get better as soon as they fell into bed -such a common, easy way out in many fics- nor was the reader left feeling hopeless and depressed, either.
I give this story a 95.
~GGj
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Re: General Review & Discussion: What She Deserves by Herself-B/S -- Dawny, 02:16:12 11/09/02 Sat (216-229-82-50-dialup-mo.fidnet.com/216.229.82.50)
This felt very unfamiliar for me. None of the characters were *themselves*
The writing itself was phenomenal.
80
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