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Date Posted: 01:35:40 09/02/03 Tue
Author: Jeannine
Subject: Fate, Free Will, or Just Dumb Luck?

Do you believe we have a lifes plan, made before we come to earth to be born? How extensive is this plan and how much of it is directed by Free will and how much is predetermined?

Can this plan be changed here on earth or once we make it, is it written in stone?

Are we just born at random, a collection of cells that multiply? Or do we chose our parents and our gender?

Is luck involved or is there such a thing?

Are there other factors involved that we have no control of, some other ingredient that we are not aware of? For instance, why do some people win the lottery repeatedly, when they dont even need the $ in the first place, and others play and never win, when they have plans that the money would make possible. Is that just dumb luck? fate? or Karmic resolution? Are some people never *meant* to win in this life?

Do you believe in Creative Visualization? I read a bit recently, Oriah Mountain Dreamer, where she says that these bids for all our dreams to come true if we just picture it, is harmful and gives false hope. She doesnt believe in that but has her own perception. I dont know that I have explained her point exactly, I am not quoting it, but anyway....

Discuss!!

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Replies:

[> There too, is the idea that no matter what free will we exert on our own lives, that one way or another what is meant to be will be. It may just happen as the result of another choice we made. So that is fate. I cant wait to hear what you all have to say! -- Jeannine, 01:55:14 09/02/03 Tue


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[> I got long, inside please >>> -- Martina, 04:46:24 09/02/03 Tue

There is a LOT to say to that.*lol* People have filled books with that subject, but I will try and give a short description on how I see things. Then you guys can rip me apart, hahaha.

- We have a meeting on the “other side”, making an outline for the next life.

- People decide whether to join in or not.

- The outline may include: place and century, male or female body, certain experiences on the emotional level, facing some situations we want to live through… and so on.

- I believe we can always change or mind during the life.

- We canīt change being born black, red or white and such, but lives circumstances, or at least our personal view of it. We can learn acceptance, if we choose to do that in this life.

- I think we are pretty much free on creating everything we need or want, no matter what circumstances this life brings. Maybe that is "the lesson" over everything else?

- I think there is no luck the way we understand it. Because lucky circumstances are too only a result of cause and effect. Lucky for us if we like them, bad luck if we donīt. The judge of that are WE. What we consider bad someone else might find wonderful, because it fits into his current situation just fine.

- I believe we are only "meant" to learn acceptance, non-judgement, non-resistance, and let life flow as it does. That attitude is what the "Masters" teach, and it is considered to bring wealth, health and happiness. Remember the Tao? "The master does nothing". Meaning he is free of desire and fear. Therefore he is tuned to creation, and creation provides him with everything automatically. Fear and desire create blockades, which the master is free of.

- I donīt think someone is not "meant" to anything. The universe is an open source of everything you can think of. There is no "you canīt have that". We just havenīt learned yet how to get everything we want and need. Because we havenīt learned to let things go. All we need to do in order to achieve that is, to set up a goal, then let it go. The general attitude shall be “fine if I get that, fine if I donīt”. That way we neither deal with desire nor with the fear of not getting it.

- If psychics tell us what will happen in our future they can look into our self made cause and effect line. If we choose to change a single thing, the future will suddenly look different, because there are millions of possible results/ways. That is why not everything psychics told me when I was younger did come true. I have changed my path. One example: There was one psychic that told me a lot that came true. But she just couldnīt see a divorce for me. No, she said, you will not get divorced! Looking back I can explain that, because back then I had no intention to ever get divorced. I was certain my marriage will work out. Later on that changed, and another psychic told me, yes, you will get divorced. Was that first psychic wrong? No, she just couldnīt look that far ahead, because most of them only see the next 5 years or so, if that! After that I could always change my path, and then it gets kinda blurry for them. Makes sense to me now.

- About visualization can be harmful: Well, the way of the master is not even doing that. The master does nothing! He doesnīt “influence” anything by picturing certain things for him. He lives in the trust that creation will provide him with the best anyway. Maybe that is what the woman means? Another example of my own life: I once wanted a house very bad, even though I had NO money. I did a meditation over 21 days, picturing that house. Nothing else, no circumstances, nothing about how the heck it could work out, just the house itself. Well, within one year I had my house! But… due to money problems, my husband losing his job and such, I lost it! So what was that good for? It caused a lot of stress and tears. The mediations had worked, yes, but with what result? The whole family was involved, and in the end everybody was unhappy. Thatīs what I got from wanting something that bad! I am approaching my goals different now. I try to make sure I could also be happy without them. That way I can let it “go”, and donīt care much if it comes true or not. The attitude is “if it is good for me and all involved” it may come true. I give Reiki to the situation, but without picturing the outcome. I just put it on the goal, and let creation and the Reiki energy make something of it, ready to accept what ever will happen, to the best of all involved. Leaning back observing what happens makes life thrilling!*lol*

Well, thatīs my 2 cents! Happy discussing!*g*


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[> [> Thanks, M. Ya know, here is another question, do you all have pictures/expectations of what you want/wanted your life to be like? I never did really. I have wishes and I think about what I would do if...but I have never really had any expectations. There were some things I KNEW and they all came true. But when I looked at the future, I saw a murky cloud. Others seem to be able to at least say what they want etc. Do you think that effects any outcomes? -- Jeannine, 05:32:09 09/02/03 Tue


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[> [> [> Yes, I think so, because people with a plan go at it with such a force, that they often make it! I personally never had a plan, just like you, haha. -- Martina, 05:40:41 09/02/03 Tue


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[> I forgot something >>> -- Martina, 05:35:25 09/02/03 Tue

It seems like we are “meant” to meet certain people, but that may be because we decided on the other side to do that. So what does “I am meant to” really mean? If I am meant to meet someone, because we have an “appointment” made on the other side, I still can decide not to like that person, ignore the “mirror” he/she is for me, and turn my back to him. I also can make the best of it and all works out well. I then say we were meant to meet.

Was I meant to meet John Scott here? Or was it a result of cause and effect? A chain of circumstances? We will never know, until we go back to the other side.

I donīt think someone is meant to be poor, if he doesnīt like it. Some poor people who are happy despite the lack of money, might have chosen a poor life. But that doesnīt mean they are stuck with it now.

If someone says I am not meant to something, it always sounds to me like a decision over my head and I canīt do anything about it. As if there was a written fate, and I am only a puppet on a string, powerless, lead by someone else. Iīd rather donīt believe that, haha.


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[> I will be brief: No to a plan. That answer rules out the next few questions. No, we are not a random collection of cells. We do not choose our parents; they chose each other. What most call luck is simply the fact that there are countless possibilities for many actions. Sometimes, the outcome we wish happens. That is a happy moment. However, we can influence the outcome of many events by our own actions. Often our actions can force an issue. So, to a point, I believe in self-determination. Since there are other factors, we can't always get what we want. Sometimes we want the impossible. This is too much for here. Let's chat later this month in person. -- Ron, 08:01:59 09/02/03 Tue


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[> [> Hey Ron, I canīt chat with you next month, and I appreciate your opinion! ;) Thanks for replying, and please donīt be brief, we like to read what you have to say! Oh I know, men are getting tired of typing quickly, hm? haha. So why donīt you think we choose our parents? Itīs been mentioned along the re-incarnation theories, and I think it makes sense. -- Martina, 08:00:26 09/03/03 Wed


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[> [> [> Hi, Martina. I was thinking of Jeannine when I said we could chat later this month, at the New Hampshire Games. I'm always brief >>>> -- Ron, 20:48:47 09/03/03 Wed

However, if you wish me to say more, I will do so. I don't believe in predestination or reincarnation, although a small voice inside me says that it seems to be a shame that an individual has been brought through all life's experiences never to be here again. Since I don't believe in reincarnation, however, I cannot accept the idea that we can choose our parents before we are born. This is why I say that our parents choose each other. They have self-determination. Having the unborn child do the choosing rules out their freedom of action.

BTW, I don't tire of typing - I write for model railroad magazines and even write my own impossible fictional stories to entertain myself. In the summer, I'm usually too tired or don't have the time to do much. The other day was like that, so I amswered concisely.

Verstehen-sie? I had fun last week conducting some German born visitors around the Museum. I was discovered as an impostor in about one minute! My German speaking ability is rather limited!


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[> [> [> [> I just saw your reply! A little late, I know, but I am very busy right now. Makes sense Ron, if one doesnīt believe in reincarnation a lot of the new age thinking just doesnīt fit, because it is based on that. Hey, I am glad you like typing!*g* Maybe it is just that men donīt ramble as much as women do?*VBG* -- Martina, 15:33:56 09/17/03 Wed


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[> I prolly get too long to, So I go inside straight away *g*>>>>>>>>>>> -- Andrea, 16:11:36 09/02/03 Tue

I am very ambilvalent on this subject... On one side I DO believe that everything is meant to be. No matter what sort of choice we make its always meant to be that way. Now this sounds like we all have to sit and just do nothing (which wouldnt be too bad sometimes ;-), but its not what I think either... I did say I'm ambivalent, no *g*?

OTOH, I agree with Martina too. AND I just know from past experience that you can make things happen just because you believed in them and "worked" accordingly.

And now I come back to the beginning: Everything is meant to be. Whatever effort we put in certain things it is always meant to be.

I have noooo idea if I could express myself so that other people can follow my weird idea... But thats what I think :-)


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[> [> Oh, and I NEVER had any drawn out plans either. Just, maybe, vague plans. And never for more than a couple of months ahead. Except my Scotland plan, which is sort of in the back, because I like it too much in Germany at the mo :-) -- Andrea, 16:13:53 09/02/03 Tue


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[> Well I think there are maybe "guidelines" (not just the right word here but I can't think of another one right now), not necessarily a precise plan as to what we are going to do in this life. I think there are certain lessons we are given in each life to learn and how we go about learning them is partially up to the decisions we make throughout our lives. We have direction & what the outcome is, depends on our choices. I never really had a specific plan either. Just a path to follow and make choices which would lead me down different roads & along the way I will hopefully learn what lessons I am supposed to. -- Lori, 19:12:27 09/02/03 Tue


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[> More - it blows my mind to think that if everyone has a "specific plan", how does it all work out. I mean, if I make one decision that sets someone else on a certain path, were they destined to be on that path, or if I would have made a different decision on the same matter, would I send someone else down a totally different path? If there are "plans" for everyone, how can this huge "web" of decisions interact. Boy that was weird. Did I even make any sense hahahahahahaha -- Lori, 19:17:56 09/02/03 Tue


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[> [> Very much sense! I agree, that web would be too huge to control. Millions of possibilities for each life form! And they all interact. Nope, that doesnīt look like a plan. Causes and effects are at work here, thatīs all, I guess. I read the theory the other day somewhere, that we arenīt here to "learn" anything. There is no karma either. This again would be a too huge web. Who decides what we have to learn? And why would we choose coming here to learn the hard way again, if we already have the knowledge? It said we are here to simply live life, and use the power of creating things. Well, just another theory.*g* -- Martina, 07:51:40 09/03/03 Wed


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[> [> yah, but don't we all have our own little webs? I have my web here in NH and Martina has a web in Germany, Lori has a web in the great midwest, and sometimes, when we choose, all our wee webs touch for a bit when we are here, on the World Wide WEB. It's like all the different plays on Broadway-- not everyone can be at all the shows at the same time. Of course we can all have our own different plans and webs. The fun parts are when all the little ones actually DO come together in big expansive ways. Aren't people still talking about coming together at a place like Woodstock? Aren't we all thrilled when we can escape our everyday web to come here on the WWWeb? I think alot more is possible than our limited thinking can even imagine. And the reason we forget the big picture is so that we can function in our small places rather than be awed at the perfection of it all. -- Lissa, 14:02:56 09/03/03 Wed


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[> I think we do all have a basic outline of what we want to accomplish while here on earth. I also think that it's NOT true that the only reason we come back is because we screwed up somewhere and had to work on it. Don't you know people who are simply thrilled to be here? And don't you think it would be far more fun coming back if there were no difficulties to get thru? As for winning the lottery, perhaps the reason the ones who need it most don't win is because winning the lottery would rob them of the chance to experience the satisfaction of "doing it" themselves. People who win but don't "need" it probably win because they have no fear or desire attached to the game of picking numbers. I have decided that I am going to stop trying to figure out the winning numbers, getting random picks instead, letting the angels tell ME the winning numbers. *G* -- Lissa, 14:45:00 09/03/03 Wed


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[> [> No fear or desire... there it is again, haha. Hey, can I borrow your angels after you won?*lol* -- Martina, 15:23:58 09/03/03 Wed


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[> Oh what a topic! Me I think life is much like the Canadian Comedian club SCTV. They went on air with a rough script, but as soon as they were live, the script was in the wind. They did what worked. Life is also like that. We had a plan coming, since we forgot to bring it with us we "wing it". An idea just popped into my mind. What if our lives are like ships, destination known before we start, but once we are on the water, everything is relevant to us, not our origin or destination? Who controls the wind? Who controls the waves? Who controls the tides? It does not matter, what matters is how we control our ships, how we trim our sails, and set our rudders. -- John Scott, 16:05:51 09/03/03 Wed


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[> [> I like that analogy! And following along with that idea, getting blown off course can lead to wonderful discoveries. Another one I heard is that life is like a video game, Xbox or whatever. You plug in a game that has all kinds of options already in it. How it ends up is how you play it, the choices you make along the way. They weren't wrong decisions, just different ones leading to different outcomes. At the end of the game, it was still a good game. -- Lissa, 16:57:51 09/03/03 Wed


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[> OMG - SCTV - I loved that show hahahahahahahaha. Pretty good synopsis there. I agree with what you, JS and Lissa said. That there might not be any wrong decisions, just different ones leading to different outcomes. -- Lori, 18:24:51 09/03/03 Wed


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[> Yep, the game analogy is a good way of looking at it. We came here without a script, which is why we are just like those game characters. We write the script as we go along the path of life. Who of you have read Jane Roberts Oversoul Seven, or Seth? Itīs all in there, and was the most "making sense" spiritual books for me! -- Martina, 03:50:14 09/04/03 Thu


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