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Date Posted: 03:28:23 06/27/03 Fri
Author: "Vince From Villanova" (Settin' it straight.)
Subject: I've done some research on this topic, and once interviewed one of these "You don't have to pay income tax" guys on my old radio show on WMEL. Click here if you're interested.
In reply to: billstoddard 's message, "Book Banned In USA!" on 00:31:39 06/24/03 Tue

I can't remember who it was that I interviewed on WMEL, but he was going to be hosting a seminar on "the myth of mandatory income taxes" in a few days, and his publicist called the station looking for someone to interview him on the air. I'd always figured these guys for kooks, but I was just curious enough to see what they were all fired up over, so I grabbed him for my Saturday night show.

I played the friendly skeptic: I peppered him with questions from every angle I could think of and tried to zero in whenever I thought he was trying to skate by on a thin technicality somewhere, but I tried not to come across as openly hostile. I didn't buy into everything he said, but he was very careful with his words, very precise, and had an answer for everything I threw at him. I came away with the following conclusions on my own.

First of all, let's smash this one right now: Bill Stoddard's "Very Wrong!" post, along with many people in the "You don't have to pay income tax" crowd, frequently make the claim that the income tax is unconstitutional.

Nice try.

It USED to be unconstitutional, and the Supreme Court even ruled on that issue once in the 1800s and declared income taxes to be unconstitutional. But see, we have these things called "constitutional amendments." They're handy little buggers that allow us to change things in the Constitution that seemed like a good idea at the time.

I now quote the 16th Amendment, ratified in 1913: "The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several states, and without regard to any census or enumeration."

Ba-da-bing, ba-da-boom. Income taxes are constitutional.

The guy I interviewed tried to skate around that. He gave me some nonsense about how the 16th Amendment was actually invalid because it was partially ratified by southern states which had seceded in the 1860s and had never really met the constitutional requirements to become states again. I tend to see it the way President Lincoln saw it during the Civil War: the southern states never actually left, and the Confederacy was never a legally-recognized political entity. And if the southern states never left, they didn't need to be "let back in."

Okay, so income taxes are constitutional. However, that doesn't automatically make them mandatory; it just means that Congress, if it wants to, can implement them.

So, this is actually a seperate issue: is there any law on the federal books that actually compels you to pay income taxes?

Most people answer that one with, "Duh... of COURSE there are! People go to jail for not paying their taxes all the time!"

Not neccessarily. Look closely. The actual criminal acts that tax evaders get thrown in jail for are reporting incorrect information to the IRS: not reporting all of their income, or applying for tax deductions or credits that they don't deserve, things like that. It's not the actual underpayment or non-payment of taxes that actually gets them in trouble, but rather the fact that they lied to the IRS about something.

Has anyone ever been thrown in jail for simple, open, and honest defiance of the IRS? ("Here's how much money I earned this year, down to the penny. But screw you, because I ain't paying a penny in taxes.") I haven't found such a case yet. Maybe there's one out there. Please point me to one. There's nothing I enjoy more than smooshing crackpot theories into tiny bits and shouting it from the mountaintops, but thus far I have been unable to do so on THIS crackpot theory.

In the meantime, I do find it odd that in all these years of this many "wackos" claiming that there isn't a single federal law out there compelling you to pay income taxes, nobody has yet come forward with an example to expose these "wackos." I've seen point-by-point rebuttals of the claims that the moon landing is a hoax. Where are the point-by-point rebuttals of the claims that mandatory income taxes are a hoax? Again, please point me to one. Crackpot-smooshing, mountaintop-shouting, and all that jazz.

Anywho, the basic gist of what my guest was saying is that it is possible to remove yourself from the federal income tax rolls and to never again have to pay a dime in income taxes. However, in order to get to that position, you have to maneuver yourself through a legal minefield of carefully-worded legal declarations and point-counterpoint fun with the IRS and other government agencies. While going through this process, it is very, VERY easy to miss dotting an i or crossing a t somewhere, and going through this process tends to label you as an irritant to the IRS, making them all the more gleeful to find those incomplete i's and t's and throw you in jail over them. This is probably where a lot of these "wackos" get themselves in trouble.

But that's not all. In addition, you'd have to give up your Social Security number and waive any and all claims on any number of government services and benefits, such as Medicare, Medicaid, welfare, Social Security, and others, pretty much making you ineligible for federal government handouts. Seems fair to me, actually: if you're not gonna pay taxes, you shouldn't be able to reap the benefits of taxpayer-funded programs.

Is it valid? I have no clue, because I haven't tried it. The guy I interviewed said that he had done it successfully. As I said on-the-air at the time, it sounded like it might be legit, but that it really wouldn't be worth it to me: lots and lots of effort with lots and lots of room for error and a high cost for such an error, all to achieve at best a marginal net benefit. Sorry, I've got better things to do with my time. But to his credit, my guest didn't try to sway me from that decision. He stressed on the air that it was a huge decision to make, that his path was not for everybody, and that he simply wanted to give people enough information to make an educated decision. (Of course he was charging people for that information through his seminars, but hey, a guy's gotta make a living, right?)

This is all from memory, unfortunately, so I wouldn't be a bit surprised if I mis-remembered something. If anyone's interested, I could always dig up the tape of that interview and MP3 it on my website. Minus the top-of-the-hour news and commercials, it would come out to about 45 minutes of audio, and you'd get to finally hear what I sounded like on the air. If enough people say they want to hear it, I'll do it. But if not, no skin off my nose, and again, I have better things to do with my time anyway. ;)

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Replies:

[> [> Tax book banned -- Mike Widner, 11:59:08 06/27/03 Fri

I read the judges order that bans the sale of The Federal Mafia, and I listened to audio transcripts of the hearings. Nowhere in any of it did the govt attorney or the judge mention the section and paragraph of the IRC that Mr. Schiff violated. Mr. Schiff was not given the opportunity to testify under oath, nor was he allowed to cross-examine any government witness. Mr. Schiff's attorney was told she would be sanctioned if she attempted to argue any points of the law.

When I first listened to the audio transcript, I thought the judge was the govt attorney arguing his case to the bench. It took me awhile to figure out that it was actually the judge arguing the govt's case for them, FROM the bench. Again, no mention of the law being broke.

I read and hear a lot of discussion and debate about income tax law, and those who believe the tax is legally imposed and collected will point out sections of the IRC to back up their points of view. But in this case, the govt would only cite sections of law that allowed them to punish and sanction, but did not cite the law that was broken by Mr. Schiff. When Mr. Schiff asked the judge what law he had broken, the judge told him he could not direct legal questions to the bench.

I have called and written to the IRS asking for the exact passage of the law that makes me liable for the tax. Once I was told they were not able to cite it. Once I was told they didn't have to cite it. Once I was told to seek competent legal advice, and once I was referred to my congressman. My elected representatives have all referred me to the IRS, claiming that IRS knowledge of the law is greater than that of congress, even if the law was written in congress.

I have asked tax preparers what the precise text of the law is, and was told that, "We can't help you." I have asked IRS revenue officers and agents to give proof of their authority by showing me their badges or pocket commissions, and they have all refused. Even though the Internal Revenue Manual states that the purpose of such a credential is to show to the public that they are acting within their legal authority. The real reason they refuse to show their badges or commissions, is because the commission for collectors of Subtitle A taxes (Income) is non-enforcement. Only collectors of Subtitle E taxes (ATF) have enforcement authority.

This is the first time in U.S. history that the govt has banned the sale of a book, allegedly because it gives instruction on how to commit "unlawful activities", with no mention of the law that is actually being broken. There are books that give instruction on how to build bombs to destroy property and kill people, how to manufacture illegal drugs, and how to molest children, none of which are banned for sale by the govt.

As for IRC section 61, it lists sources of income. If the income tax is a tax on income, then it is not a tax on sources of income. Also, corporations pay income taxes ONLY on their profits. Whatever your belief about the definition of income, it is certainly not defined one way for corporations and another way for individuals.


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[> [> Hell, I'd like to hear it. I find the whole arguement both fascinating and pointless at the same time. The "No Income Tax" guys were big here in Philly in the early 80s. I even decided to go to one of the seminars just for laughs, lots of words, nothing usable. In the end he expected the poor folk to take on the IRS alone just to back him up. -- Surf, 14:19:17 06/28/03 Sat


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[> [> [> Which guys -- Mike Powers, 19:37:40 06/28/03 Sat

Which guys, do you remember the name? Of course your right about the poor folk the gummit takes their money and if they file the proper forms they might get help from the gummit too. If they could just keep thier money then they could help themselves. What a novel idea!

"Give me liberty or give me death", "I have not yet begun to fight" isn't a part of your thinking is it. More like here is the leash now lead me. Pant pant bark.

Mike Powers


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