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Clatsop County Matters
Click on any of the pictures below to link you to a blog written by one of your neighbors, friends, colleagues, or info on a local agency or someone you are thinking of voting for

Welcome to Clatsop County Matters

While this was a forum to respectfully discuss those matters which concern the citizens who live, work and play in this small corner of the Pacific Northwest, the time has come to use a new board for our forum. We are moving our main discussion forum over to Clatsop County Matters'Dried Salmon Forum at Proboards. Please join us there. Sharing news and views of Clatsop County's agencies, governing bodies, businesses, schools, plans, projects and future.
Note posting agreement at bottom of page
Please, use this Voy forum for posting events

and this oneClassifieds for posting your items for sale.

The archives are still here (look up at the top of this page, over on the righthand corner, click on one of the numbered pages) to read and you can cut and paste them over to the other forum board. You can no longer reply to the threads. We hope to see you on the other forum board. Also, remember to visit the bloggers and other sites linked to on this page.
Clatsop County Matters blog


Subject: Clatsop County Matters ... to whom? FAQs


Author:
Sydney Carton
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/14/06 1:10am

We are creating a FAQs list for Clatsop County Matters forum. Here is a list of questions we get in our email regarding CCM. They do not yet contain the answers. Please let us know if there are some more questions that you think should be included. It will be an ongoing list, of course. Please try to keep this thread on topic.

Who created CCM?

Why was CCM created?

How is CCM moderated?

Who decides what sites are linked to the forum?

What criteria is used to link a web site or blog?

Do you censor people's posts?

What kind, if any, of posts are censored?

Can the original poster of a thread delete it?

What if I post something that I thought was true but later found out wasn't?
[> Subject: How many hits you get a day.


Author:
THartill
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 9/06 11:08pm

[> [> Subject: From this board? None.


Author:
Wende
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/13/06 11:25am

But considering the gif. that is posted representing my site, I'm not surprised. Heh. :) I also don't post here--so that could be my issue.

As for readership, mine is really low. I probably only have a grand total of 200 readers (distinct IPs) and my stat counter would implode if they all visited on the same day. Most of those are lurkers--with only about 20 or so really contributing anything via comments, and of course, never commenting on the same post!

However, as I write pointless drivel, this is to be expected. :)
[> [> [> Subject: None at all???


Author:
THartill
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/13/06 4:22pm

However, as I write pointless drivel, this is to be expected. :)

Don't we all!

I get about 10 a day from here, but I don't track ISP's so I'm not sure if it's one person over and over again or what....

Google is in love with me right now so I'm getting hits up the ace. Around the elction I was getting 300 a day via Google and 500+ total. Even now on normal days I still get 100 Google hits and 300 total.
[> [> [> [> Subject: Ok, one


Author:
Wende
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/13/06 11:32pm

I get ONE with a "voy" link, but not often. It's the same ISP over and over.

Wow--your numbers are impressive. :) My stats package strips out all the bots, which means my numbers are really pathetic. Lately, I've been getting lots of image hunters, which is just odd. More people "looking", and not really reading. Guess it's a good thing I'm OK with being unread.

But, as it's been established: "I couldn't be more self-absorbed if I was made of half paper towels and half water." And I'm not likely to start writing anything that isn't self-absorbed, so--I'm guessing my readership is going to stay just as it is. HARD to believe I've been at this since 2001.
[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Feel free to send a any gif for the link


Author:
Sydney
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/14/06 1:10am

Wende, I apologize if a link to your blog was created w/o your approval. Please, if you would like a dif gif email it. These voys do not host pics, only link to them, so the pic already has to be on the web. I think you probably already knew that. But maybe others don't.

We encourage people to read the blogs, and a lot of the Carton "family" does read all of them, as well. Obviously, these are the blogs we choose to represent our community amd we think each of the writers have a distinct and unusual viewpoint on this world, here. Realizing life happens, some links may be disappearing soon as they have been dormant for such a loooooong time. Tooo bad, they had some good potential.

Sid
Subject: Ask the DA


Author:
Josh
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/13/06 1:15pm

Since there is so much rumor and gossip that passes for news in the blogosphere and elsewhere I have decided to add a button to my blogsite (joshmarquis.blogspot.com) called "Ask the DA." Anyone - names, psuedonyms, or just plain anonymous - can post a question or comment about me, my office, or the justice system. I'd prefer they actually have a comment or question but as part of my WYSIWYG belief system I'll answer almost any query.
So just go to the joshmarquis.blogspot.com and click the button in the upper left hand corner,
[> Subject: Can/will you track ISPs?


Author:
Carrie
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 08/ 7/06 3:27pm

Gossip and rumor pass for gospel in all arenas of life, I have not seen the law enforcement offices being immune to its ill effects.

I commend you for staying here and for continuing to work in our legal system. It is my opinion that you serve us, that the legal system must serve us or its existence is a moot point (haha). My opinion of you, specifically, has changed, dramatically, since reading your wife's blog. Was it full of rumor and gossip? I took it for truth, as she saw it and for that I respected it.

Please, remember, for the most part, we are intelligent and balanced readers. Most of us are what, I would guess, are termed "lurkers". We read what many people are saying and follow the links. Maybe not posting often because: a)there are so many strident voices b) if you can't see eyes or hear a voice it is easy to misunderstand c) it is so much easier to lash out at a screen at the end of a rather crappy day than at a real person and one tends to forget that it is a person reading these words d) most of us were raised with mothers who told us "Don't wrote anything with your name signed to it that you wouldn't want your mother to read".

I, personally, have had one encounter with you in the court room. I won, I would guess because you did not do your homework or you would never have taken on the case. My sister went on to rape a four year old child in Portland, became a prostitute in Salem, we heard she dealt meth in Kalamath Falls, and then we lost track of her about five years ago with only her accounts of what she is up to from half crazed letters she writes to assorted family members on backs of envelopes and napkins. The children you asked Judge Nelson to return to her we raised. Both had their bachelor degrees from the University of Oregon just before their 21st birthday and one had their Masters in Education shortly after their 22nd birthday, after being homeschooled because 1) we don't like the public school system and 2) they were terrified their mother would find them and kidnap them or you would force them to return to her. They are now 24 years old. One lives out of the country and the other is thinking of leaving to raise children away from anywhere that there mother could find them. That is how horrible this woman was to her children and how much they are still sure she will hurt them. She told them, "You belong to me, if I can't have you, no one can." Her favorite book was the biography of Diane Downs. The abuse they told of in the judge's chambers and -you said was made up but the judge believed- not only wasn't made up it was even worse. What that woman made her son do to prep the daughters so she could sell them on the streets for her fix, and they were only eleven at the time? I hope to hell you have learned since then what truly can happen when substance abuse is involved, Mr. Marquis.

So, my question to you would be, why did you take on that child custody case? Why would the District Attorney take on a simple case between whether or not the mother was capable of caring for her children (she hadn't completed a sobriety program after being in 4 facilities for substance abuse in a four year period, leaving each one AMA, plus being under state supervision for the six months previous to the hearing and still hadn't been sober for even three months) or whether the state should continue to monitor the situation and the children remain in the care of the state? It had only been six months. The parent's rights weren't being terminated. Why were you involving yourself in this case? My sister's attorney was former DA Steven Gertulla, the state of Oregon case worker was recommending that the children be returned to her.

All we had was the Truth, our testimony and half of the county testifying that my sister was a sick, depraved person that couldn't possibly raise her children, had seen her prostituting herself with her children in tow, had been to parties with at her home that turned into orgies w/her kids in their bedroom hiding under a mound of clothes in their closet hoping no one would find them. These kids have blacked out parts of their childhood because it is too horrible to remember it.

So, why did you feel the need to be the one representing the case worker (i.e. The State of Oregon) in the action?

In Clatsop County we have a very high incidence of child abuse directly correlating to our high amount of substance abuse. Since my sister's case, which happened over 10 years ago, how has your perception of child abuse in Clatsop County changed? Have you taken any training in recognizing the signs of an abused child?
[> [> Subject: I don't think blogs can


Author:
Sandy
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 08/ 7/06 8:20pm

I haven't had any dealings w/the DA's office however I would like to know if ours has asked people to take pleas offers and confess to crimes they didn't actually commit just to clear the books?

Also, is confessing to doing that a violation of national security and could I be in trouble for even asking about it?
[> [> Subject: Go to Ask the DA


Author:
Josh Marquis
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 08/ 9/06 11:02am

1) I have no interest in "tracking" ISPs. Like most bloggers I'm interested in how often and how much people look at what parts of my blog.

2) The DAs office is so busy that we have no interset in taking guilty pleas from people who did NOT do it. Keep in mind that almost everyone who gets arrested claims they didn't do THIS crime. But the volume we deal with is so great and our ethical and moral charge to prosecute the guilty and protect the innocent so great that I challenge anyone to name cases whre innocent people were "forced" to plea bargain. Almost every child molester who is staring at 6 years and gets a deal for 3 claims they were coerced. If they didn't do it they should trust in the jury system. I do.

3) One poster talked about a case a decade ago wher I can only assume it was a juvenile dependency case wjhere the DA is one of several parties and the judge is asked to make a decision about where to place the kids. If a mother was abusing drugs she shouldn't get her kids back. Since 1996 we have established the Lighthouse Child Abuse Assessment Center and I have lawyers who specialize in child cases handling most of those appearances. Frankly they are probably better at making those decision than I, although I will say I've become les and less convinced that a bio-parent should automatically get custody if they are seriously messing up. Many times the DA's office recommends AGAINST DHS (the state agency) when they seek return because of our fears for the children's safety.
[> [> [> Subject: Thank-you


Author:
Carrie
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 08/ 9/06 3:31pm

The case was before Lighthouse Child Abuse Assessment Center was established. As hard as the case was on our family our dearest wish, as an outcome, was that lessons would be learned, all around. Both as a family, learning to look for early signs of substance abuse as well as child abuse (or any kind of abuse), and as citizens becoming aware of the pervassive and insidious usage of substance abuse and its effects on the lives of those around the abusers. Our county is teetering on the edge of a precipice which, if we stumble over, will see us in a desperate, and costly, scramble to climb out of.
[> Subject: question for the DA


Author:
wondering
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 08/10/06 6:59am

What do You Believe in ?
[> [> Subject: Go to joshmarquis.blogspot.com


Author:
Josh
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 08/10/06 8:12am

[> [> [> Subject: strange mens rooms


Author:
wonderin
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 08/12/06 8:24am

I never go into strange mens rooms...thanks for the invite though....would still like to know what you believe.

If you were on trial, would you want the district attorney, or any officer of the court, for that matter, using the media to try your case to the public?...

Would you yourself want a jury who could make a decision on your innocence or guilt on the evidence presented at trial ?

You said, you trust the jury system...hmmm...

do you care about any of the people you put away ?
[> [> [> Subject: Truth, you can't handle the truth


Author:
pedantic public defender
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 10/13/06 6:06pm

No Ordinary Asshole (sorry Immy)
by David Feige
As it turns out, Joshua Marquis—the guy who wrote that idiotic letter about the Fisher profile—is a highly regarded spokesman for the prosecutorial lobby—the National District Attorney’s Association.

So I thought it might be interesting to see just what it is that these guys believe. And so with a little help from our friends at Google, I bring you:

THE GREATEST HITS OF JOSHUA MARQUIS (De SADE):

In an article about mental retardation and the (now forbidden) execution of the mentally retarded:

"Those (guidelines) are extraordinarily subjective. IQ tests themselves are subjective," said Joshua Marquis, district attorney in Astoria, Ore., a state that now must craft a ban. "IQ tests . . . can vary by 20, 25 points. It's going to be a very difficult road."

Huh? Does this guy just completely make shit up? Is he a complete idiot, or, given his national status as a bigwig prosecutor can we conclude that these guys don’t care about the truth?

Just to be clear—IQ tests are incredibly delicate psychometric instruments, and 20 points on an IQ test standardized at 100 is a full standard deviation. A 25 point variance is more than a SD. Does this guy think anyone would use such an instrument? This is foolishness on the order of Holocaust denial.

Here’s another:

In an article on the sorry state of indigent defense, a major newspaper began it’s story like this:

MARKS, Miss., April 11 — Diana Brown met her court-appointed lawyer for the first time on the day she pleaded guilty to several serious crimes five years ago. They spent five minutes together and have not spoken since.

"You are guilty, lady," the lawyer, Thomas Pearson, told Ms. Brown, according to her sworn statement, as he met with her and nine other defendants as a group, rattling off the charges against them.

He told her she was facing 60 years in prison for assault, drunken driving and leaving the scene of an accident, and should accept a deal for 10 years, court papers say. He gave her five minutes to decide. Offered no other defense, she took the deal.

What does Marquis say in this same article in response?


"We are looking at a completely different world than Clarence Gideon saw," Joshua Marquis, district attorney in Astoria, Ore., said. "In noncapital cases, indigent defendants get anywhere from an A to a C defense. I think they're entitled to a C-plus level defense."

Huh? Does this guy READ? Again, is this ignorance or do DA’s not really give a shit about indigent defense—sorry was Thomas Pearson a C+ defense? The point is, again, these guys don’t care about process, they just want to prosecute, win and incarcerate.


Ready for more:

On sequential lineups—something I know a fair bit about having been the (or maybe one of the) first in the country to file a motion seeking a double-blind sequential lineup, Marquis says this:

"it will be much more difficult for the [witness] to offer any identification," says Joshua Marquis, district attorney of Oregon's Clatsop County, best known as the home to the town of Astoria. "What we're trying to do is find the truth. We ought to make it easier, not make it more difficult."

While he agrees that lineups shouldn't be suggestive, Mr. Marquis says the research supporting reform is "thin"; indeed, some psychology experts question whether existing studies provide enough support for sequential lineups.

Sorry Charlie—that’s more bullshit. Go read the science. And as for the experts—the DA”s have found only TWO EXPERTS IN THE ENTIRE WESTERN HEMISPHERE (and only one in the US) who agree with them. One of them—Ebbe Ebbeson is a notorious prosecutorial hack who testifies for them constantly. And even Ebbesen doesn’t dispute the core findings of Wells et al—he just thinks we should do some more research.

Again, what’s going on here is the reason I hate prosecutors—they do that republican thing—they spout lies as if they are truth—they deny science and employ lies in the service of a profoundly corrupt agenda.

I know you’re getting bored but it goes on and on.

Marquis doesn’t believe that most people exonerated by DNA are innocent: Really.

When a newspaper reports that:

A comprehensive study of 328 criminal cases over the last 15 years in which the convicted person was exonerated suggests that there are thousands of innocent people in prison today.

Almost all the exonerations were in murder and rape cases, and that implies, according to the study, that many innocent people have been convicted of less serious crimes. But the study says they benefited neither from the intense scrutiny that murder cases tend to receive nor from the DNA evidence that can categorically establish innocence

Marquis says in the same article:

“that many of the people exonerated under the study's definition may nonetheless have committed the crimes in question, though the evidence may have become too weak to prove that beyond a reasonably doubt.”

Oy.

Did I mention he want’s to kill Kids?

"Juries recognize, in some cases, that those under 18 are not the children we might want to believe they are," said Joshua Marquis, a longtime prosecutor in Astoria, Oregon, and a member of the board of directors of the National District Attorneys Association. "They don't benefit from the juvenile justice system, and can be held fully responsible for their actions."


Or that he want’s to bar possibly innocent inmates from being able to demand the DNA tests that might exonerate them?

"If we had unlimited resources, you might say, 'So, there are a couple hundred more people who want DNA testing. What's the harm?' " said Joshua Marquis, the district attorney in Astoria, Ore.

"But there are 500,000 rape kits [containing evidence] sitting on the shelves of police stations across the country right now, untested because we don't have the resources."


So basically, Astoria Oregon has a District Attorney who believes that IQ tests can’t reliably establish mental retardation, that poor people don’t deserve good lawyers, that the police shouldn’t use a kind of lineup that results in fewer innocent being wrongly convicted--that we should allow the execution of juveniles but prevent wrongly convicted people from proving their innocence through DNA.

And this guy speaks for the National Association of District Attorneys. Do you STILL wonder why I hate them?
[> [> [> [> Subject: The Plea's The Secret


Author:
Whales-Are-US
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 10/15/06 9:52am

Some say a DA can't lose and critical defense data doesn't have to be presented when SOP is "Pre-Trial Agreements" on the part of the defendent and choreographed by that same DA.

"Pleas" should be abolished from the judicial system completely.

I'd like to read the DA's viewpoint on this.
[> [> [> [> [> Subject: his own blog only has tired ole tiac posting but you might try


Author:
political blues
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 10/25/06 1:10am

asking at tryan hartill's northcoast.com site. the da seems to not want to respond to people he doesn't recognize as a part of his reality and i don't think anons can post there, but maybe they can as long as they provide a fake email address, too.

youd think someone would recognize that a community too frightened to post their real names, and too savy to go to his blog cause they know it can be traced even if he says he wont, are ripe to elect a new da.

when the opportunity comes are we going to jump out of the frying pan into the fire?

gertuula to leonhardt.

leonhardt to marquis.

is it really being too naieve to expect someone to run for a politically nonparticant position purely for the sake of the community w/o personal agendas of power?

out of the frying pan into the fire, haste makes waste.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Ask the DA


Author:
Josh
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 10/26/06 6:55am

Give me a break!

Name a SINGLE elected official, certainly in Clatsop County, or in the state for that matter who puts himself out there like I do. I invite ANYONE, anon or otherwise, to ask me questions. I post my opinons on a wide variety of subjects - many controversial and sure to anger some - on my blogsite (joshmarquis.blogspot.com)
I challenge you to find a more transparent elected official.
I answer every question asked except for the pure nutcases.
Unile other blogs I don't require people to "register" or identify themselves to post or ask questions.
More people voted for me - unopposed - than ANY other candidate running county-wide in the May 2006 eletion. I had the lowest "undervote" of any candidate. There were FOUR candidates for Circuit Judge in May and ONE for DA. I love the job or I wouldn't be doing it.
My budget is public record and every year I have to justify, no usually fight, for the funds to do my job. The Oregon constitution made the DA an independent state officer for a reason.
I personally try cases, both major (murder) and smaller (DUII). I am in court every day and courts are open to the public. If you are interested, come watch.
I am honored to be asked, on my own time, by newspapers like the Wall Street Journal to write book reviews. Feel free to criticize them. The Governor appointed me to the 7-member Oregon Criminal Justice Commission and my fellow prosecutors in Oregon elected me for 8 years to represent them on the Board of Directors of the National DA's Association. ALL my out-of-state travel is paid for by the people who want me to come speak, NOT Clatsop County taxpaters.
Unless someone is WAY more clever than me the only thing one can tell from a posting is the ISP from which it originates (i.e. Charter, AOL) etc. I have neither the ability or interest in checking out who's writing.
I maintain the blog, privately, to - answer one question posed on this thread - to tell people what I beleive in.
I have a listed phone number and someone doesn't want to hear my opinion just click on another site.
I have been hearing that I am "just in this job to run for higher office" for the almost 13 YEARS I've had it. There hasn't beeen a DA who stuck with the job in this county that long in almost 100 years.
See me running for anything else? Actually as you can tell being DA is a lousy jumping off point because if you do the job aggressively you piss off too many people. Eventually lots of people have a freind or family member who gets tagged for DUII or worse and I challenge ANYONE to cite a case where someone got special treatment because of who they were or who they knew.

That's my response to several of these postings so feel free to fire back.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: question for DA


Author:
anon
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 10/26/06 9:31pm

Though somewhat converse to the challenge that was put forth by Mr. Marquis about someone having been given special treatment because of 'who the were', some may have observed that our DA appears to go after some citzens who have committed crimes with a vengeance and with unusual zeal BECAUSE OF WHO THEY ARE. It appears that it may not always be because of the nature or gravity of the crime, of which they are accused but in some part may be because the case may be newsworthy and a camera may be lurking close by.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Who is prosecuted


Author:
Josh
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 10/27/06 6:38am

"Who they are?"

Yes, they committed a crime. That's why they are prosecuted.

Again, name someone who was "prosecuted becauuse of who they are" not because of what they did!
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: who are they?


Author:
Ossie
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 10/30/06 7:35pm

Josh, since "anon" hasn't responded, I will throw in my comment. What about that game (fishing?) case against kris Kaino awhile ago? I could be wrong, but it appeared (again this is just from my memory of the daily A reports) that you may have been a tad harder on him than others who are charged with the same type of offence. And didn't you charge richard Lee some years back on that puppy farm thing? whatever happened to that case anyway? did he plead or what?

And since you mentioned it in your earlier message and I notice that you seem to be defending some travel you do that's not associated with clatsop county, just how many days in a year are you out of the county on this 'other business' that taxpayers dont pay a dime for? If you are transparent. Don't we as taxpayers pay your salary for being here whether you are in the county or not, that's what I am trying to ask.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Ossified


Author:
Josh
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 10/30/06 9:44pm

Kaino got such a sweet deal the judge who gave him a diversion had to answer a judicial fitness complaint.
Richard Lee was charged by the county many YEARS ago with failing to get dog licenses for his puppy mill. At the COUNTY's request I prosecuted the county ordinance violation. Lee's lawyer convinced the out-of-town judge that the dog license ordinance was improperly adopted and although Lee skated, he never forgave me for daring to hold him accountable for even such a small thing as a county ordinance violation.
The taxpayers get an average of 50 hours a week out of me. As an elected official I get ZERO hours vacation so I am judged by the voters on whether I am doing my job.
I'm easy to find and I don't hide behind phoney names or lurk in the dark recesses of the internet.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Guess Who


Author:
spyman
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 10/31/06 3:06pm

Ossie is short for Ossifer Dan
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: wrong information


Author:
Anonymous
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 1/06 6:32am

I could have sworn that the Clatsop County DA DID charge Lee with some sort of animal abuse crime over the puppy farming thing. I could be wrong.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Richard Lee's puppy mill


Author:
Josh
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 1/06 12:02pm

Richard Lee was never charged with any kind of animal abuse/neglect crime. He was ONLY cited for violation of the county's dog licensing law and that charge was initiated by the county, NOT the DA's office.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Could This Be The Same Richard Lee?


Author:
Patrick McGee
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 1/06 4:43pm


Just got this in my email.

Is this person the one and same Richard Lee?

You think?

Tsk! Tsk! Tsk!

(Josephine, a sixty-eight pound black and tan "hound" was sold by Richard Lee (Lee Farms) to Oregon Health Sciences University on January 15, 1998, because she wasn't a good breeder. She was two-and-a half years old when she was killed at OHSU on May 26, 1998.)

Richard Lee violated Yamhill County Animal Control laws by adopting Josephine from their shelter and then later reselling her for research.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: could this be sourced to the "unbiased" reporting of


Author:
melissa
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 1/06 6:32pm

animal writes the *official* online animal rights advocates? real credible there.

i met margaret lee years ago when i was little. she suffered horribly from ovarian cancer. to watch richard watch her suffer was heart wrenching.

whether or not you agree with using animals for research to judge someone elses decision to help in the only way they know how, through direct action which is the kind of person he, is callous in the worst sort of way especially in a community of our size.

mr marquis, dont be disingenuous or catty about people wishing to remain hidden in the world of the internet to ask you questions. reprisals are a daily occurance in all arenas from a layoff to someone "forgetting" to put your check through at the bank. you cant blame people for doubting that there could be reprisals and not necessarily from you or your office but from others who have an interest in some cases staying closed or forgotten.

how much trust do you have in our local policing agencies? in the thread regarding captain mike cenci of the washington dept of fish and wildlife what is his credibility with your office? have there been incidents where he or his agents have misled any of your adas? if you found out that a lie either he or one of his agents told changed the way you or one of your adas would have handled a case what would you do?

in seaside you showed that you could play hardball in regards to handling cases from one certain officer. what would you do if the same actions had taken place with multiple officers and the head of a division?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: wheres a peemate when you need one?


Author:
melissa
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 4/06 1:14am

do you have to be able to whip it out to get a comment on this thread?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Getting A Little Out Of Control Here Melissa?


Author:
Patrick McGee
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 4/06 7:59am

Just calm down!

Just what the heck is this "P-Mate" thing?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: i provided a picture w/a link how much more info do you require


Author:
melissa
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 4/06 9:58pm

and i too am asking direct questions about the das office, its relationship with other departments and holding them accountable for their interactions as it relates to people being investigated for prosecution with our tax dollars.

what i seem to be lacking is thoroughly described in the picture and link provided.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Well, Hell Melissa, Men Fight Wars Over Your "Marriage Tackle"


Author:
Patrick McGee
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 5/06 8:52am

Off-Color?

Maybe but, factual and you're complaining?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: bs off topic and when did you become his blocker?


Author:
melissa
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 5/06 12:42pm

yeah yeah yeah and rape is a sign of love not a symptom of corrupted or frustrated power.

you play football? i played flag with the neighborhood kids. boys hated it when the girls played because it got rather intense. its all supposed to be in fun theyd whine when they lost.

are you a part of his karma? is this how you view our community? are my questions worth less because our fishermen are the least of our citizens? does an answer to any of my questions carry too many consequences for the da?

left to my own researching i do not see anyone touting our da except our da, patrick mcgee and articles in which he is being used as an expert this or that. for the most part it appears that he pisses people off because he skews information and statistics to make nonsensical talking points.

point in fact his numbers on the polls that "like him" in clatsop county. how was a question asked? who asked it? what clues were they giving to the answer they wanted to hear? any college student who has taken statistics or an advertising course knows poll answers mean next to nothing. maybe one reason why education on the jury is an important factor.

smart people, especially in clatsop county, appear before nelson or brownhill and do not use a jury. good advice: use the judge. do not plea bargain, you will always be forced to plead to something you did not do. insist that the prosecution proves its case. statistics show that 92% of the time if they cant get a plea bargain prosecuters dont have enough evidence to convict.

hahaha.

grand jury. hahahaha. stop it, your making my side hurt. statistics and grand juries and justice.

he who knows how to play the game best wins (gerttula, 1978). law is a game. clatsop county is a gameboard and we are the game pieces. be that as it may you always want the da who loves the gameboard and the pieces as much as the game to be your da.

fyi- mr marquis - even the least among us should have your top concern. the least are our brothers, sisters, mothers, fathers, daughters, sons and cousins. pay consequences, yes. be ridiculed and a stepping stone for a career, no.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Melissa on Meth?


Author:
Jim
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 5/06 1:15pm

Huh, lady...what's your problem?
Some member of your family in prison?
Between this forum and his own website Marquis answers any questions posed him. What job is he using DA as a "stepping stone" for?
We're not sure what your genitalia references mean.

And BTW Gertukka was elected in 1980 until defeated by Julie Leonhardt in 1993. But you probably think she was a victim of a vast conspiracy.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: lol - o my god - are you on meth when you question


Author:
melissa
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 6/06 1:10pm

or challenge the integrity or position of port commissioners and others when they support lng? good god i read tons of crap you and your wife screeched at those people and some of them answered each of your attacks, do either of you have drug problems?

go ahead and attack my reasoning or the sites i refered to but why attack me? you dont pay me i do pay the da. i do not have any blood relative prison or jail nor did he ever try to send one of them there. i say blood because one never knows in this county with shirttails and soon to be inlaws etc.

it seemed to me that my questions/concerns were/are being ignored and men were/are being answered. humor attempted when frustrated.

now this has gone off on a crusade of attack melissa the wacko instead of answer the question. shame on you both. you both know this tactic from what was done to you and your concerns with lng. when you cant attack the questions or the position attack the person. pathetic and a sign of weak people.

good for you that you are satisfied with the performance of the da. good for you that his answers to anonymous on his forum met your satisfaction. state your personal feelings and knowledge and leave off the personal attack on someone you dont know dont pay and dont have the capacity or capability of analyzing.

marquis puts himself out here. he asked for questions and now i am supposed to be satisfied with others questions when i have my own unaswered? no. i dont think so.

so many questions once one has read his own articles as well as rebuttals by other lawyers and pundits. the spin and double talk put on so many things and marquis does it very, very, very well. so one has to ask what is he doing here? it has to be asked. why here? he fell in love and decided to stay? hes making the best of things after being told he cant go any further? i think you are being rather naieve if you dont ask those kind of questions. hell you were asking them of people who were born and raised here but were for lng so you viewed them as pirates.

double standards everywhere.

btw -i know when gerttula was elected and he was an attorney before then and talked to people before then and so what? i dont think leonhardts charges were part of a vast conspiracy anymore than you think there is a vast lng conspiracy.

do you patrick and josh share a common belief regarding lng?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Never Thought You Were Quite "Wacko" Melissa


Author:
Patrick McGee
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 6/06 3:48pm

A little too much, the appearance of, disdain for the opposite sex, assuming you are would be my only criticism..

What criteria would you use to rate "The DAs" performance and what model would you use to campare him to?

Notice I am asking for your input.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: go mellisa


Author:
voter
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 6/06 4:52pm

About time someone put Patrick Mcgee in his place, very well done!
Wonder why he feels he has to come to Marquis defense?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: The truth


Author:
Susan
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 6/06 6:34pm

Marquis is evil.

The truth is at www.motherinterrupted.us

Don't beleive the lies on his website or in the newspaper. The truth is out there and it's scary!
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: I'm In My Place


Author:
Patrick McGee
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 6/06 7:41pm

And I thrive on being in it.

I don't think Melissa's quite sure about her place as she's obviously convinced nobody is hearing what she has to say and now she's starting to scream irrational thoughts, at least in my observation.

You?

Where's........Your Place?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: wrong


Author:
Nancy
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 6/06 7:51pm

Your observation is wrong, she is one of few making any sense. Your just upset because she laid in on the line. Are you also a good friend of Lars Larson?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Just What "IT" Did Melissa Lay On The Line?


Author:
Patrick McGee
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 7/06 8:12am

The rambling is a bit confusing so, kind of break "IT" down for me please so that I can comprehend.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: ???????


Author:
nancy
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 7/06 1:58pm

Sounds to me like she wants people to take a good look at the DA and would like her questions answered without you butting in with your attitude. OK, OK so you like the DA!
Why? Doesn't lng keep you busy enough?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Butting In?...My Attitude?


Author:
Patrick McGee
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 7/06 3:09pm

Isn't this an Open Forum?

I don't seem to remember having to apply to join this thing.

Is there some step I bypassed to be able to freely post my views on an issue here?

I don't think so.

I forget what her questions were and if you, since you seem to be Melissas' Mouthpiece here, will ask them again I will be happy to answer whatever question she might have from my perspective.

Last thing I seem to remember her saying of any significance was that she was resentful that she was not able to "Pee" in the same designated toilet as the men.

It gets kind of fuzzy from there.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Sorry, Clicked Too Soon Nancy


Author:
Patrick McGee
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 7/06 3:18pm

Like The DA?

What the hell sophomoric BS is this?


What does it matter whether I like Josh Marquis or not as if this were some petty third grade jealousy?

The important thing to me is, "Is Josh Marquis doing the job the citizens of Clatsop County elected him to do.

In your view is he or is he not and why do you feel the way you do?

Do you have an issue with LNG on the Lower Columbia?

What is it and why?

You're sounding a little bit like the guy on one of these Blog/Message Boards who preaches our only salvation here will be from those that call themselves "Native" with "Old Money" or have lived here for twenty years or more.

You one of "THEM" Nancy?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Some say NO


Author:
nancy
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 7/06 4:22pm

I am not a mouth piece for anyone! I support what she has laid out regarding the DA. Some citizens have questions, not a beef!
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Could You Give a Brief Overview Of What Melissa Laid Out?


Author:
Patrick McGee
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 7/06 5:19pm

Regarding the DA?

No tricks here.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Hell I just figured out the P-Mate Photo was a link to...


Author:
Patrick McGee
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 7/06 5:28pm

explain how "P-Mate" works.

It's a device for women who want to stand up and pee like men.

I would assume it's for those women who might regret not having a penis?

Sorry for taking so long on that one Melissa/Nancy.

Obviously way to deep for my intellect and that's why I keep asking someone to break her thinking down into "Layman Speak"
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: It was spelled out


Author:
nancy
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 8/06 6:54pm

brief enough?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Who's Answer Is This...Melissa Or Nancy?


Author:
Patrick McGee
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 8/06 7:06pm

I think we got an alter ego/multiple personality thing going here but, I'll play along anyway just to not tilt your psyche and just in case this is "REALLY" Nancy.

It's too brief plus you have plenty of help.

I see no reason why....uh....you two can't just explain things in a little more detail without skipping all over the post with rambling musings that are way over my head obviously.

Obviously you're way over my head intellectually.

Witty retort though, good job.

Ask Melissa if she will come forward and cooperate.

What triggers Melissa to speak-up?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Free Country for starters


Author:
nancy
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 9/06 9:59am

You have got to be kidding with your alter-ego thing. I agree with Melissa, why do you have a problem with that? No-one is picking on the DA, just stating truth,concerns and looking for questioned asked.
The bigger question is...Why do you protect him, to the point of ridicule of others asking important questions?
You don't have the power to bully citizens to remain quiet, no matter how much you push.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: oops forgot


Author:
nancy
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 9/06 10:39am

to ask, are you the DA or Patrick? How many question do you ask FOR him? Is it YOU or the DA asking the questions? You just have to be his alter ego which does come to light with your aggresive support of him.
I am happy he full fills your needs as a DA. Guess what? He doesn't seem to be filing anyone elses!
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Hate to burst you ranting bubble, but...


Author:
Jim
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 7/06 6:02am

...you have the wrong Jim, that you're trying to castigate. I am the anti-LNG Jim and it's not me talking on the above post. Although I'm sure there must be more anti-LNG Jim's than just I(at least I would like to think so).

Jim
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: What's Your Issue With LNG Melissa?


Author:
Patrick McGee
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 7/06 5:39pm

Hmmmmm?

What is it?

This I want to hear.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Marquis's A Big Boy, He Doesn't Need My Help


Author:
Patrick McGee
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 5/06 1:22pm

Somehow I knew you would meld the "Sexist Male" element into the conversation.

Football, Baseball, Golf in school, motorsports after and until now.

I'm with you on "Plea Bargaining" as it should, like "Lobbying", be banned from any venue of lawmaking and/or administration of.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: knappa


Author:
logger
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 9/06 1:45pm

If Marquis is a big boy, how come you are always there? Why, do you think he needs defending? Do you get paid for your constant campaign for him?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: I don't agree


Author:
The Guy Who Writes This
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 1/06 7:00pm

Not true, the 4 candidates for judge in total received 9,396 votes and 12 write in (for someone else) votes and only 1,040 undervotes.

The DA had 7,040 votes 446 write in (for someone else) and 2955 undervotes. That says that one third of the population has a problem and it borders on no confidence.

So it is true that more people didn't vote for him than voted for others running for other offices.

Further more, you call youself a Democrat, yet you are considered a friend of Lars Larson, you appear on his show weekly, you are pro death. Democrats dot't do this sort of stuff. You are working both sides of the fence. Pick one?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Give it a break


Author:
Josh
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 1/06 7:17pm

Sorry to disappoint you but if you check state-wde election results you'll find a 30% undervote in a single-person race is very low. In fact of all the people running for DA in the state in 2006 it was the lowest percentage of undervote.
In 2002 your tax dollars paid for a defense lawyer's attempt to move the Anthony Garner trial out of county (it didn't and he was convicted and sentenced to life without parole) An expensive out of town polling firm asked 500 randomly selected citizens if 1) They had an opinion about the DA, Josh Marquis? and if they answered yes, 2) Was their opinion that he did an a) excellent, b) good, c) fair, or d) poor job. About 75% had an opinion and of that group 76% rated my performance as DA as "excellent" or "good." 9% rated my performance as "poor."
If I was doing such a horrible job it should have been easy to find someone to run against me (the DA's job pays about $6000 less than Circuit Judge).
I am the kind of Democrat who beleives in taking individual positions on individual issues. I'm pro-choice and pro-capital punishment, for example.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Josh


Author:
I know the guy who writes this
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 1/06 10:25pm

Who paid for that poll, you? And why was it initiated? Whatever became of Simpkins, Garner's cohort who you lost to?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Poll


Author:
Josh
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 2/06 7:23am

The defense lawyer - meaning you taxpayers - paid for the poll. I thought it was strange to waste money on the poll.
The defense theory was that they should get a change of venue out of Clatsop County because the case was too well known and to many possible jurors were prejudiced in my favor. The motion to move the trial was denied.

Mr. Simpkins first jury hung 11 to 1 for guilty. On the retrial he was found not guilty and has been in and out of jail since. he hasn't killed anyone ...yet
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Garner


Author:
F. Lee
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 3/06 1:06am

What about the numerous reports circulating through the legal community during the Garner trial that you used real time voice stress analysis computer programs on Garner during direct examination in trial? If true, and there isn't any reason to doubt that it is true considering how many people in the courthouse were talking about it, isn't that considered unethical, maybe illegal and certainly unfair to the defense? Couldn't you have won a conviction on your own ability rather than have to resort to gimickery, expensive technology and unethical practice? Did you have such little confidence in the State's case that you deemed in necessary to compromise the concept of a "fair" trial?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Silence is golden?


Author:
Cuckoo The Bird Girl
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/12/06 2:23am

Silence is deafening?

Silence is telling?

Ask me no questions and I'll tell you no lies?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Silence


Author:
abe
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/13/06 1:15pm

Tis better to be silent and be thought a fool, than to to speak and remove all doubt.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: The votes


Author:
The Guy Who Writes This
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 3/06 5:24am

OK, so you were the worst voted person in our county, but you take pride in being the best of the worst state wide. This should tell the State DAs that when they get together maybe they should discuss why the public trust of their positions is so low instead of having their death penalty circle jerks. There is a big problem when public opinion is this low.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Well, What Do You Suggest As A Solution?


Author:
Patrick McGee
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 3/06 7:54am

Just curious "Guy Who Write This"

You seem to be trying to lead-up to some point so, why don't you cut to the chase and get to it so we will all know?

What's your real "Beef" with "The DA"?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: The votes


Author:
The Guy Who Writes This
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 3/06 10:16pm

Several things, Patrick. And thank you for allowing the opportunity to speak ones mind here.

At first, I had no problem other than the constant appearances on Lars Larson show. Associating with Lars makes our voters look stupid for entrusting that sort of legal power to someone who will perform weekly for a counter productive big mouth conservative bigot and bully. Next, if the counties would agree what an important position DA is they should pay accordingly to attract more and better candidates. My cynicism makes me wonder why someone would spend all that time acquiring a law degree and not want the financial rewards. It must be the power of the position that is valued more than money.

Last summer I over heard some red hat ladies complaining at the County Fair, and I did an article about it on my blog. Suddenly I am getting comments and emails from people telling me about a history of abuse and trumped up charges, telling me I had to read the book Smoking Gun and visit all sorts of web sites. Three months later I’m still getting comments on my forum and personal emails. So there seems to be a lot of discontent with the citizenry who feel powerless and fear reprisal.

My final complaint with the local legal system is why are the DA and other attorneys endorsing a candidate for judge? Isn’t that unethical? So let’s say Don gets elected, do you think he will possibly rule on the side of one of his supporters over someone who didn’t support his candidacy? As fair minded as I believe I am, I think that even I would bend toward someone who stuffed cash into my campaign and support me publicly so I could have a seat on the bench. I believe that judges should be hired by the state rather than elected or appointed. Our judicial system it totally political. The DAs are elected, as are the judges. Some judges are political appointees. I may be over-reacting here but this makes it very possible to have political prisoners in this country. Judges and DAs should not have to interrupt their workload just to raise money and campaign to retain their jobs. DAs and lawyers should not be allowed to demonstrate any support for any candidates that possibly reflect or kick back to what they do. I wonder if there is some resentment from the ADA Murk, who didn’t get the DAs support in the primary. What do you bet?

I am a citizen, a voter and a taxpayer here. I think I can and should articulate the concerns of the people who entrust their comments with me on my blog and forum. I just want to air this and get it over with so I can move on and get away from the topic. There are so many other things to write about, but someone has to talk about the 800 lb gorilla in the room. I’m just saying…
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Murk's Not An ADA.....


Author:
Patrick McGee
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 4/06 9:06am

That I know of.

She does act as an "Court Appointed Attorney" for the Defense.

Haller? If you notice the endorsements, you would assume he is indeed the "GOBs/Status Quo" endorsement, which simply means more of the same business as usual.

Me personally?

Matyas, absolutely.

The DA?

As far as I know, nobody is or has been denied the opportunity to stand-up and take Marquis on and right off the top, do you even have a suggestion as to who you or anybody else might recruit to do so?

You think Marquis has so much power the entire local legal community is afraid of him?

What is it he's been here for 13 years and his income is public record and I don't think that income is in the higher eschelon(sp) of salaries in the state and I don't hink Clatsop County DA would be the springboard to launch a major legal career.

You think the reason he's still here is because he might true love his job at this level and truly tries tp mete out justice.

He's even said that in a community this size we likely all, at some, time will cross paths with him either directly or indirectly and I guess it's whichever side of the infraction you are on that will form the opinion you have of Marquis.

Quite frankly and pardon my blountness but this guy has the "Shit Job" of many "Shit Jobs" in my view and the odds are 50/50 you will either end up hating him or loving him.

How has Marquis impacted or touched your life?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Yep


Author:
The guy who writes this
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 4/06 10:36am

I have never met the man, don't care to either, but the things I have heard from others about trumped up charges and wild goose investigations, ruined lives from false charges... If and when I am called for jury duty I will have to state that I have questions in my mind about the DA and I don't think I could possibly be a fair in my judgement of any case he brings before the bench. So let's say this starts getting around and more people do it as well. Can we afford to have someone with a case load of possibly dangerous criminals, have a diminished trust among the jury. It is breaking down. Having one third of his potential votes going to no one (undervotes) or write-in last spring tells me that 30% of the county voters may already be poisoned if seated on a jury.

I've made my points and I really want to put this behind me and move on. Feel free to continue this on my forum if anyone wishes to. No, I'm not looking for added hits on my blog counter, I just don't like to have to check several sites every day. Scroll up and click on Astoria Rust, there is a link to the forum on the right side of the blog.

My thanks to the folks at Clatsop Matters for keeping the free exchange of ideas and opions going here.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: The evil DA


Author:
Jeff
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 4/06 3:02pm

Boy, Marquis must really have people fooled to have gotten away with so much misconduct for so long and never been caught until now. It's amazing he wins ANY cases with so many people hating him.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Where did Josh go?


Author:
Vold
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 7/06 2:21pm

So how come Josh isn't replying now? Is Patrick his mouthpiece? Biatch!
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: How many DAs You Know That Would Do This?


Author:
Patrick McGee
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 4/06 5:04pm

To face his public and take account for himself?

And is he secretive and hard to find?

Can you dial a phone, send an email?

Let's get your new colleague Richard Lee on here and have him stand for a question or two.

I'm certain there are more than a few that would like to engage that fella but, predictably, that will likely never happen, at least between now and next Tuesday.

I'd say Marquis is trying to hide from nobody.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: GOB candidate? I think not


Author:
Jim Doten
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 5/06 6:39am

"Haller? If you notice the endorsements, you would assume he is indeed the "GOBs/Status Quo" endorsement, which simply means more of the same business as usual."

Patrick, et al, Haller although he has a few "GOB's" behind him, does not mean that he is not right for this job. As far as people voting in judges, I have often wondered that myself. If you think that Haller would "sway" to one side or the other, would you rather he sway toward the accused or the DA's side? I think that the opposite is true of Matyas(if in fact, there is any "swaying" at all) since the DA's attorneys are most of the ones who voted for her in the lawyers polls. So, which way do you want to go? I actually don't think that either one would tend to go toward either side. When Judge Nelson got elected was there any question about him? I don't know. I'd say he is a very good and fair judge. I know that Haller is alot like him in manner and thoughtfulness on a subject. Is Matyas? I don't know, I don't know her from anyone walking down the street, but she probably is OK.

Patrick, I'd support you if you were running for something, but would you skew anything toward me if I came before you with a problem in whatever capacity? I doubt it. Nor would I expect you to. Heck, You're a republican, and I still "talk" to you (don't know why)...just a joke.

Jim
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: You hit the nail on the head Jim.


Author:
Patrick McGee
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 5/06 8:50am

Flip a coin and either way you will get a good judge in the overview.

I'm still sticking with Matyas.

These days I think I'm leaning more towards being a "Localist".

The issues confronting us all in our immediate lives make anything out of DC and related to the two mainstream parties, pale in comparison.

We've got government here on the verge of a wave of sweeping, dramatic and earthshaking change that will dramatically impact all our lives for years to come.
[> Subject: Poor investigative work costing the taxpayers money each day


Author:
Sandy
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 10/13/06 2:44pm

How much money, notwithstanding the police budget for the initial investigation but adding on costs of any further investigation ordered by the DA's office/indicated per grand jury indictment, was spent to prosecute Tom Cain?

How often does a grand jury refuse to indict when the DA's office asks?

How much money will the DA's office be wasting to prosecute the two boys, represented by Roman, tagged with alleged fishing violations when they were 15 years old that is now 2 years ago? Corks not red enough and other such nonsense. A lie told to your ADA that these two had outstanding warrants in Washington kept them from getting this case thrown out last year, leading to the judge saying if they kept their noses clean for one year this case would be thrown out. Now, over a year has gone by and another lie that cases "pending" against these two young fishermen in Washington state's Pacific County is keeping them from having this all dismissed.

What is the matter with you that you allow your ADAs to be led by the nose by the lies of dirty DAs in another county, especially those counties that are the haven of the Oregon Fishermen hater, Mike Censi?

These two juveniles do not have any outstanding warrants, nor a case pending. Neither of them have so much as a parking ticket or an overdue library ticket on either side of the river.

This is flat out sloppy investigative work by your office. All it would take is a phone call and a fax to resolve this case, in particular, and the matter would be resolved. However, it will drag on and on, creating havoc for that fishing family, and you become a partner in the harassment of one of the backbone industries of our area. And for what? To add two violations to two young boys' records and collect $1000 each from them and another year probation? HARASSMENT and who pays for them being on probation? Who watches them? Who do they check in to/with? And how many people are checking in with that same person on the same type of petty charges?

THIS IS JUSTICE in clatsop county?
[> [> Subject: and.....


Author:
Curious George
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 10/13/06 11:05pm

...why do you lie about the amount of money being spent on remodeling the DA's offices in the big boondoggle overhauling of the courthouse?
[> [> [> Subject: doesn't someone have to hand over "the books"


Author:
asking
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 10/14/06 12:45pm

when asked?

Not doubting either one of these cases, cooked books are the norm, but doesn't a gov agency have to turn over the books when asked? What is the average cost of a court case, from beginning to end? If our area DAs offices are in the habit of prosecuting cases that are ridiculous, and at the most akin to parking tickets, isn't that abuse of their power and misappropriation of the funds given to them by the taxpayer?
[> [> [> [> Subject: You Can Petition For A Financial Audit Through Secretary Of State's Office


Author:
Patrick McGee
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 10/14/06 1:03pm

and as well, they have a "Fraud and Waste Hotline", one can call totally anonymously to report any suspected mis-use of Taxpayer Money.
[> Subject: the "it" laid on the line


Author:
melissa
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 7/06 10:52pm

Post: 11/ 1/06 6:32pm
how much trust do you have in our local policing agencies? in the thread regarding captain mike cenci of the washington dept of fish and wildlife what is his credibility with your office? have there been incidents where he or his agents have misled any of your adas? if you found out that a lie either he or one of his agents told changed the way you or one of your adas would have handled a case what would you do?


Date Posted: 11/ 5/06 12:42pm [in response to previous poster] are you a part of his karma [a way marquis has of looking at those he calls 'the least' of our citizens per the link provided on that post]? is this how you view our community? are my questions worth less because our fishermen are the least of our citizens? does an answer to any of my questions carry too many consequences for the da?


those were my initial direct questions, first to marquis and then to the poster. the other posts, which to you was me "screaming irrational" thoughts, was me thinking through what i saw as evidence for justifiably having a growing concern over how marquis, as our da, thinks.
[> [> Subject: cyberspace screams


Author:
melissa
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 7/06 11:17pm

i am not quite understanding what patricks beef w/me is or what jims is. my questions, concerns and comments were basically, for marquis. i thought it was pretty pointed that marquis was answering questions for the mens club (aside from one at the very beginning for carrie?).

no tricks here. i am not nancy or anyone else on the thread. i dont understand how some people can howl about "gobs" and then turn around and act exactly like 'them.' clustering and "sounding" as if you were covering one anothers backs just because you all wore the "hate lng" ring. fyi -this is an allegory, patrick, i dont think you actually wear rings -i didnt even see any of you three but jim at any meetings. patrick blogs his hatred and marquis' is expressed through cindys. yes jim i thought you were antilng jim. that was my point.

my concerns with lng seem to be the same ones, for the most part, that have been refered to on river vision and dotens blog as well as mcgees.

i provided links and a full detail of why i am having concerns with our da. if you have something to counter my research share it. if you are somehow mystically atuned with me and able to discern screaming but unable to discern satire in my opinion you need to go in for a tune up, your out of whack. i do not scream.

i thought the peemate rather funny, i still do. that is the funniest pic for an ad i have seen in a long time.

again, no one of you is paying me to be a citizen. i am paying marquis to be the da. he has invited questions and comments. as a sign of courtesy i thought i deserved a reply to mine.

i believe with all of my heart that a society should be judged on how they value one another, label one another and treat the least person able to defend themselves. grand that the das office speaks for the victim. speaking for the victim does not give that office the right to punish those they deem the least of society. that is not its role.

my role is to critique what i feel is wrong with something i have a deep interest in, that is what being a citizen means to me.
[> [> [> Subject: Excellent Point but......


Author:
Patrick McGee
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 8/06 8:43am

my role is to critique what i feel is wrong with something i have a deep interest in, that is what being a citizen means to me.

don't you think we all have that same right?

The one thing that distrubs me is your railing about LNG and those critical of it and on the other hand you bemoan the plight of our Commercial Fishermen?

You think LNG will not impact dramatically the Eco-Balance of the Coulmbia and send the industry that much deeper into the doldrums?

There's a piece on "Astoria Citizens Journal" about "What you aren't being told about LNG"..."Myth versus fact" that you might want to peruse.

You won't betray anybody by going there and reading it.

All this coming from, of all things, a (In a whisper) "Republican" for Gods sake!
[> [> [> [> Subject: go back to kindergarden


Author:
melissa
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 9/06 1:22am

learn how to share and not steal what wasnt yours.

i think jon was right about you. you have manias and then depressions, right? your, like, two or three different people between your postings and maybe thats why you didnt make any lng protests. you always said you were working but seeing how often you post your about as prolific as marquis and you both spin about as hard, it appears you have plenty of time to post all over the place.

i am trying to find the compassion for you but you make it real hard when you shit all over some good posts that asked valid questions needing solid answers.

you are one paranoid dude showing absolutely no capacity for empathy. a true sociopath i think. when you say irrelevant crap on threads that arent yours not even talking on topic or answering a question pisses people off.

cant you even read at least? i said i had read your sites. no one but you thinks people hopping along the links posted here or anywhere on the web is "betraying" anyone or anything. i can read marquis link, river vision's link and then even calpines link and not be "betraying" anyone. its called research and independent investigation.

who cares if you call yourself republican? i have only ever seen you and lee going back and forth caring about political parties. it doesnt appear anyone else here does.

read this next sentence outloud a few times -melissa wasnt railing against lng melissa was showing how it would feel if someone asserted that jim was on meth just because he had the audacity to question elected officials who sided with lng corps.


so either your psychotically sick or a complete dolt. either way theres no way to carry on a discourse with you which saddens me. youve had some good ideas which i had enjoyed reading but now that youve destroyed my questions with your constant totally off point shit spinning your off my list of local authors to read. if this is the way you spin one thing this is probably the way you spin everything and you just lost your credibility with me.

i am not asking someone to elect me and taxpayers dont pay my way. its no ones business what i volunteer my time doing. if your so keen on the subject you share your life. i will repeat i never saw you at a single meeting to protest lng. i didnt make every single one but your absence while screeching at everyone else to participate was noted.

someone tell me if he uses any of my questions on his sites or any of his stories at tryans. i caution everyone to take what patrick mcgee writes with a bushel of salt. something isnt clicking right upstairs there.
[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Well, As Someone Has Said......


Author:
Patrick McGee
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 9/06 7:16am

"Tis futile to prevail in a debate with a Zealot, an Intellectual or a Fool."
[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Reply


Author:
Vold
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 9/06 7:44am

Patrick's arguements seem to comply with two of the criterion, intellectual not being one of them.
[> [> Subject: Excellent Point no BUTS about it!


Author:
nancy
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 8/06 10:58am

Thank you, Melissa for explaining your valid points!
Patrick this isn't about lng! Stick to the subject matter!!
[> [> [> Subject: It's About LNG And Paranoia And A Number Of Subjects?


Author:
Patrick McGee
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 8/06 11:49am

I would stick to the subject on this thread but, there are so many

or challenge the integrity or position of port commissioners and others when they support lng? good god i read tons of crap you and your wife screeched at those people and some of them answered each of your attacks, do either of you have drug problems?

go ahead and attack my reasoning or the sites i refered to but why attack me? you dont pay me i do pay the da. i do not have any blood relative prison or jail nor did he ever try to send one of them there. i say blood because one never knows in this county with shirttails and soon to be inlaws etc.

it seemed to me that my questions/concerns were/are being ignored and men were/are being answered. humor attempted when frustrated.

now this has gone off on a crusade of attack melissa the wacko instead of answer the question. shame on you both. you both know this tactic from what was done to you and your concerns with lng. when you cant attack the questions or the position attack the person. pathetic and a sign of weak people.

good for you that you are satisfied with the performance of the da. good for you that his answers to anonymous on his forum met your satisfaction. state your personal feelings and knowledge and leave off the personal attack on someone you dont know dont pay and dont have the capacity or capability of analyzing.

marquis puts himself out here. he asked for questions and now i am supposed to be satisfied with others questions when i have my own unaswered? no. i dont think so.

so many questions once one has read his own articles as well as rebuttals by other lawyers and pundits. the spin and double talk put on so many things and marquis does it very, very, very well. so one has to ask what is he doing here? it has to be asked. why here? he fell in love and decided to stay? hes making the best of things after being told he cant go any further? i think you are being rather naieve if you dont ask those kind of questions. hell you were asking them of people who were born and raised here but were for lng so you viewed them as pirates.

double standards everywhere.
[> [> [> [> Subject: alright araneus diadematus give it a rest


Author:
melissa
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 8/06 11:47pm

i was answering questions put to me backing the answers up with reasoning.
[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Oh! So That's What You Call Reasoning?


Author:
Patrick McGee
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 9/06 7:18am

I learn something new everyday.

Thank you.

This is Melissa now right?

Where's Nancy?
[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: right here!


Author:
nancy
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 9/06 10:21am

If you do indeed learn something new everyday, how about allowing citizens the same right? Minus... of course your disdain for the truth.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: How will you learn If yuou can't see the entire Issue?


Author:
Patrick McGee
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 9/06 1:53pm

You learn from me, I learn from you, we learn from others.

Truth?

Whose, mine or yours?

Facts?

Maybe that's what you are mistaking as truth.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: I am asking the questions here! LOL


Author:
nancy
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 9/06 2:49pm

You did ask! You got responses! People are looking for a better speaker for Marquis. Simple
[> Subject: Marquis' caped crusader defend this


Author:
JD Bishop
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 9/06 5:47pm

So, Next Time You're Tried for a Crime, Just Say, "Hey, Everybody Makes Mistakes!"

The NY Times has an interesting article (Prosecutors Not Penalized) on how being cited for prosecutorial misconduct (even for a severe offense, such as knowingly allowing the sole witness to a crime committ perjury while on the stand) is not a bar to a successful career, one study of the Bronx DA's office showed. From that piece, here's a defense of prosecutors to keep you up at night:

Others in the legal profession said that misconduct was sometimes a necessary part of the learning curve. "Everybody makes mistakes — if we have a zero-tolerance policy in the legal profession, everyone is going to get disbarred," said Joshua K. Marquis, district attorney of Astoria, Ore., and a member of the board of directors of the National District Attorneys Association.

http://blogs.salon.com/0002874/2003/12/17.html
[> [> Subject: zero-tolerance policy


Author:
for justice
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/10/06 3:37pm

I would have to diagree with Mr. Marquis. When a life is in the hands of a prosecuter there should be zero-tolerance!
[> Subject: Yep this guy's all about looking for the truth and admitting when your wrong


Author:
JD Bishop
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 9/06 6:58pm

AGACL conference & innocence
Next week is the annual meeting of capital prosecutors, AGACL (Association of Government Attorneys in Capital Litigation). This year presents an odd series of CLE events.

Wednesday offers a class called “THE MYTH OF INNOCENCE” given by a long time critic of innocence claims that argues the State never gets its wrong (and quoted by Justice Scalia in Kansas v. Marsh for just this point), Joshua K. Marquis, District Attorney, Clatsop County District Attorney's Office, Astoria, Oregon. He also argues that if there are innocents convicted that their number is so minuscule as to not require meaningful discussion. This argument seems to echo with another class “DNA -- ADMISSIBILITY AND MANIPULATION” presumably about how someone else’s DNA at the crime scene doesn’t mean a person shouldn’t be executed.
http://www.capitaldefenseweekly.com/2006_07_01_archive.html
[> Subject: Marquis views the Law upholders as Infallible


Author:
JD Bishop
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 9/06 8:27pm

16 July, 2006

Uprooting the Creeping Belief That the Criminal Justice System is Infallible
by TChris

Yesterday, Last Night in Little Rock took issue with Justice Scalia's assertion in Hudson v. Michigan that the exclusionary rule isn't needed to deter police misconduct because "modern police forces are staffed with professionals." Complementing LNiLR's comment on the unprofessional and inexperienced members of the Las Vegas Police Department is David Feige's Boston Globe reminder that the New York Police Department spent nearly 12 years trying to locate evidence that led to the exoneration of Alan Newton. A professional police department might have considering looking in the evidence locker assigned to that case, where it was finally found. If this is "professional" conduct, what does an incompetent police department look like?

Like LNiLR, Feige is baffled by Scalia's vision of unerring law enforcement. Feige calls the Newton exoneration "a poignant rebuke" to Scalia's opinion in a different case, Kansas v. Marsh.

In that death penalty decision, Scalia went far out of his way to attack what he termed the death penalty "abolition lobby." In his analysis, Scalia joined a growing chorus of death penalty proponents who claim that our criminal justice system is nearly perfect in adjudicating guilt and innocence. Indeed, Scalia devoted entire pages of his opinion to excoriating several of his fellow justices for succumbing to what he believes are unfounded fears of fallibility created by the extensive attention garnered by the exonerated.

Justice Scalia seems a fan of Joshua Marquis, "the district attorney of Clatsop County, Ore., and an oft-quoted spokesperson for the prosecutorial lobby," who "asserts that the conviction of the innocent is essentially unheard of in our system of criminal justice." Marquis apparently didn't consult the Innocence Cases archive on TalkLeft, where he would have learned that the criminal justice system screws up -- producing unreliable guilty verdicts and convictions of the innocent -- on a regular basis.

Feige's article provides deadly ammunition against opponents of criminal justice reform who base their arguments on Marquis. It also stands as a warning that Marquis' reasoning is creeping into the conventional wisdom of policy-makers.

As Alan Newton's wasted years clearly demonstrate, imprisoning citizens for crimes they didn't commit is a tragic injustice whether it is freakishly improbable or terrifyingly commonplace. But as long as the opponents of change refuse to acknowledge the scope of the problem, much needed reforms will remain-like the exonerating evidence in Mr. Newton's case-unexamined. The tragedy here isn't merely questionable scholarship, it's the degree to which the prosecutorial lobby has latched on to what appears to be advocacy masquerading as statistical argument. That Justice Scalia has adopted this reasoning wholesale, seemingly without critical analysis, is merely further proof that when it comes to criminal justice reform, it is hardly the zealousness of the abolitionist movement we have to fear.
[> [> Subject: Infallible?


Author:
JD Bishop
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 9/06 8:29pm

LVPD Shocked by Murder of Officer and Its Own Inexperience
By Last Night in Little Rock, Section Crime Policy
Posted on Sat Jul 15, 2006 at 09:50:06 AM EST
by Last Night in Little Rock

A month ago today, Justice Scalia justified cutting back on the exclusionary rule in Hudson v. Michigan using this rationale, obviously culled from the state's amici briefs (playing into Scalia's hand) with no basis in fact:

Moreover, modern police forces are staffed with professionals; it is not credible to assert that internal discipline, which can limit successful careers, will not have a deterrent effect. There is also evidence that the increasing use of various forms of citizen review can enhance police accountability.
Not necessarily so in our fastest growing metropolitan area: Las Vegas.

Today, the LA Times reports in Many Possible Triggers in Rash of Police Shootings in Las Vegas that the unusually young LVPD is coping with its first cop killing in 17 years. Not likely coincidentally,

This year, they have fired at suspects in 19 incidents, killing nine people. If that rate continues, the total police-involved shootings for the year would far surpass those in each of the previous five years, according to police data.
...

The rash of shootings has triggered an FBI investigation into one case, prompted a local review of the inquest system that has repeatedly cleared officers of wrongdoing, and caused outcry from civil rights organizations.

This is a revealing article about a police department policing its own when they are admittedly so young and inexperienced.


The average age of a LVPD officer is only 28, and the average time on the job is only 4 years. It is a product of the rapid growth and nature of the community. The article notes that the officer shooting on February 1st likely has made the younger officers a little more willing to pull the trigger on a civilian.

Sheriff Bill Young has voiced concerns about two of the shootings and said he welcomed the FBI probe.
He also cited the relative inexperience of his force. Faced with explosive population growth and the crime that accompanies it, the department -- which covers most of Clark County -- has doubled in size in 15 years. The average officer is 28, Young said.

"We're hiring from the human race," Young said. "They're young people in their 20s, and they're assigned to the graveyard shift. They're confronting more and more people with guns. So you have to ask the question: Is it the training? Is it their age? Or is it the luck of the draw?"

The killing of Sgt. Prendes hangs over the department, and some in the community are convinced that incident gave the younger officers itchy fingers.
What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas. Not when a tourist captures the aftermath of a shooting on tape, Rodney King style:

Police also shot and killed Tarance Hall, 31, whose car was blocking traffic and blaring music at a crowded intersection on the Las Vegas Strip on July 4. The incident was witnessed by dozens of tourists, some of whom said afterward that they thought it was a taping of the TV show "CSI."
...

Afterward, police dragged Hall's limp body from the car, threw him to the street and handcuffed him, a scene videotaped by a tourist and broadcast nationally shows. Hall was pronounced dead at a hospital shortly after.
http://www.talkleft.com/story/2006/07/15/509/64688
[> Subject: Answering Marquis' spinning numbers


Author:
JD Bishop
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 9/06 8:38pm


Innocence by the numbers
Is Justice Scalia's faith in the criminal justice system, expressed in a recent opinion, based on the fuzzy math of the death penalty lobby?
By David Feige | July 16, 2006

ALAN NEWTON LEFT PRISON last week after serving 22 years for a rape he didn't commit. Though eligible for parole for nearly a decade, he was repeatedly denied his freedom because he insisted on his innocence. Through repeated motions and letters from his prison cell, Newton relentlessly sought the DNA testing that eventually cleared him. But it took the New York City Police Department nearly a dozen years to locate that evidence-even though it was stored in the original evidence barrel the whole time-years Alan Newton spent in prisons like Attica and Sing Sing.

The Newton exoneration stands as a poignant rebuke to Justice Antonin Scalia's concurring opinion in the recent Supreme Court case of Kansas v. Marsh. In that death penalty decision, Scalia went far out of his way to attack what he termed the death penalty ``abolition lobby." In his analysis, Scalia joined a growing chorus of death penalty proponents who claim that our criminal justice system is nearly perfect in adjudicating guilt and innocence. Indeed, Scalia devoted entire pages of his opinion to excoriating several of his fellow justices for succumbing to what he believes are unfounded fears of fallibility created by the extensive attention garnered by the exonerated.

A principal flaw in Scalia's argument is that it is grounded in misleading statistics from a pro-death penalty piece published on the op-ed page of The New York Times in January. In the piece, which Scalia both cites and quotes at length, Joshua Marquis, the district attorney of Clatsop County, Ore., and an oft-quoted spokesperson for the prosecutorial lobby, asserts that the conviction of the innocent is essentially unheard of in our system of criminal justice.

Citing a 15-year study of exonerations by Samuel Gross, a law professor at the University of Michigan, Marquis argues as follows: ``Let's assume...that there were 4,000 people in prison who weren't involved in the crime in any way. During that same 15 years, there were more than 15 million felony convictions across the country. That would make the error rate 0.027 percent-or, to put it another way, a success rate of 99.973 percent."

Surely, Marquis suggests, when only a few out of every 10 thousand criminal defendants are innocent, and they have appeals and executive clemency to rely on, the criminal justice system is working as well as we could possibly hope. That argument, presaged in a law review article Marquis wrote in 2005, has driven the thinking and rhetoric of those who oppose criminal justice reform. With Justice Scalia's imprimatur, this flawed analysis is sure to take an even more prominent place in the criminal justice debate.

Unfortunately, Marquis has propounded a flawed analysis grounded in faulty, irresponsible arithmetic. Here's the problem: Comparing exonerations to felony convictions is like arguing that the Ford Pinto was safe because compared to the total number of automobiles sold in the United States, not many of them blew up. The proper way to determine the failure rate of the Pinto is not to use the total number of cars sold as the denominator, but rather the number of Pintos sold. Likewise, the denominator in Marquis's fraction shouldn't be the 15 million felony convictions over the past 15 years, but rather the number of similar cases in which innocence is actually disputed.

Marquis's most glaring error is his failure to acknowledge the fact that most felony arrests aren't contested. In fact, 95 percent of them are resolved by plea rather than trial. Thus in 19 out of every 20 felony cases, there is no contested issue of guilt and no real claim of error.

Only trials in which someone is convicted while maintaining his innocence should be considered in computing an error rate. Of Marquis's 15 million felony cases, 14.25 million were pleas. When the denominator in his fraction is changed from 15 million to 750,000, the error rate jumps from the arguably ignorable 3 in 10,000 to more like 50 in 10,000.

And Marquis's numbers become even more disturbing with further analysis. Because of the overwhelming demands involved in reinvestigating a crime with an eye toward exoneration, it is almost exclusively defendants sentenced for rapes and murders whose cases get scrutiny from groups like the Innocence Project, the nonprofit organization that helped free Alan Newton. The chances that a drug defendant is going to interest them are virtually nil. Thus the only people who have any meaningful access to the possibility of exoneration are a tiny subset of criminal defendants. Murders constitute only 0.8 percent of all felony cases, and rapes less than 2 percent. In other words, less than 450,000 of Marquis's 15 million felony convictions came in cases where the defendant has had a real shot at exoneration.

It is true that murder cases go to trial far more often than run-of-the-mill drug sales or check forgeries. In fact, some 44 percent of murder cases actually go to trial, with an average conviction rate of about 85 percent. But even taking this into account, of the 150,000 murder cases in Marquis's 15 million, only 66,000 homicide defendants maintained their innocence through a trial, of which just over 56,000 were convicted. Using similar trial and conviction rates for rapes yields somewhere south of 200,000 contested convictions in serious cases. In the final analysis, Marquis's error rate is off by orders of magnitude-his vision of a virtually error-proof system is simply unsupported by the numbers.

As Alan Newton's wasted years clearly demonstrate, imprisoning citizens for crimes they didn't commit is a tragic injustice whether it is freakishly improbable or terrifyingly commonplace. But as long as the opponents of change refuse to acknowledge the scope of the problem, much needed reforms will remain-like the exonerating evidence in Mr. Newton's case-unexamined. The tragedy here isn't merely questionable scholarship, it's the degree to which the prosecutorial lobby has latched on to what appears to be advocacy masquerading as statistical argument. That Justice Scalia has adopted this reasoning wholesale, seemingly without critical analysis, is merely further proof that when it comes to criminal justice reform, it is hardly the zealousness of the abolitionist movement we have to fear.

David Feige was a public defender in the Bronx and is the author of ``Indefensible: One Lawyer's Journey into the Inferno of American Justice," published last month by Little, Brown & Co.
© Copyright 2006 The New York Times Company

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/ideas/articles/2006/07/16/i
nnocence_by_the_numbers/
[> [> Subject: extra..read all about it.


Author:
nancy
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/10/06 11:30am

you must be the investigative reporter Astoria needs. Welcome! I as a citizen have questions regarding the money spent for petty crimes, yet little spent on sellers of meth/cocaine.

Thanks, Patrick for taking a vacation.
Subject: Voice Stress vs Polygraph - ask which one DA uses


Author:
JD Bishop
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/11/06 5:25pm

Voice Stress vs Polygraph

Polygraph Research
The American Polygraph Association has a compendium of 80 research projects, involving 6,380 examinations. Researchers conducted 12 studies of the validity of field examinations, following 2,174 field examinations, providing an average accuracy of 98%. Researchers conducted 11 studies involving the reliability of independent analyses of 1,609 sets of charts from field examinations confirmed by independent evidence, providing an average accuracy of 92%.
Bersh, P. J. (1969). Journal of Applied Psychology, 53(5), 399-403. The lie detection judgments of polygraph examiners in criminal investigations conducted by the military services were validated against unanimous guilt-innocence
decisions by a panel of four Judge Advocate General (JAG) attorneys. Level of agreement was 92.4%.
Honts, C. R. (1996). The Journal of General Psychology, 123(4), 309-324. Data from the files of 41 criminal cases were examined for confirming information and were rated by two evaluators on the strength of the confirming information. The decision of the original examiners were correct 96% of the time, and the independent evaluations were 93% correct.
Patrick, C. J., & Iacono, W. G. (1991). Journal of Applied Psychology, 76(2), 229-238. Records from independent police files for 402 control question test (CQTs) conducted during a 5-year period by federal police examiners in a major Canadian city, the hit rate for identifying guilty subjects was 98%.
Raskin, D. C., Kircher, J. C., Honts, C. R., & Horowitz, S. W. (1988). Report to the National Institute of Justice. Polygraph charts from examinations conducted by the U.S. Secret Service were sampled and blindly interpreted by polygraph examiners and by computer interpretation using algorithms. Decisions by the original examiners on individual relevant questions ranged from 91-96% correct on confirmed truthful answers and 85-95% correct on confirmed deceptive answers.

Voice Stress Research
Cestaro, V. L., & Dollins, A. B. (1994). An analysis of voice responses for the detection of deception. Pitch patterns showed no particular indication of deception. Using data from pitch patterns, the accuracy rate in the detection of deception was 37%, and it was not different from the chance level accuracy.
Cestaro, V. L. (1995). A Comparison Between Decision Accuracy Rates Obtained Using the Polygraph Instrument and the Computer Voice Stress Analyzer (CVSA). The CVSA produced the overall accuracy of 38.7%, and it was not different from chance.
Cestaro, V. L. (1996). A comparison of accuracy rates between detection of deception examinations using the polygraph and the computer voice stress analyzer in a mock crime scenario. For the CVSA, accuracy was 52.2%, not significantly different from the chance level accuracy of 50.0%.
Janniro, M. J., & Cestaro, V. L. (1996). Effectiveness of detection of deception examinations using the computer voice stress analyzer. The overall accuracy was 49.8%, and this was not different from the chance level. Moreover, no
examiner did better than the chance level. Although the consistency of judgment among examiners was found, the CVSA failed to provide sufficient information in the detection of deception.
DoDPI Research Division Staff, Meyerhoff, J. L., Saviolakis, G. A., Koening, M. L., & Yurick, D. L. (2001). Physiological and biochemical measures of stress compared to voice stress analysis using the computer voice stress analyzer (CVSA). There was no change in stress scores based on the interpretation of CVSA outputs. Furthermore, there was little agreement in stress scores among three judges.

Have You Been Told That Polygraph is Antiquated?
If so, don’t throw it away just yet. There are proponents of other lie detection techniques that claim to have “no equal” and that the polygraph is “old”. There is some truth to this claim — they are not equal and polygraph is the oldest and most reliable lie detection technique in use. It is the only lie detection technique that has proven, independent scientific reliability and validity studies and peer acceptance; it is the only lie detection technique directly used by federal government agencies for investigatory purposes; and, it is used by more state and local law enforcement agencies than any other technique available.

There are some myths about the polygraph.
MYTH: Polygraph has a 30% inconclusive rate.
TRUTH: Typically, in the hands of a competent examiner, the inconclusive rate is approximately 5%.
MYTH: It is legal to use a detection of deception device covertly.
TRUTH: Certain manufacturers of voice stress technologies boast of the ability to use the methodology covertly. Using a detection of deception device covertly is, in many jurisdictions patently illegal. Polygraph is NEVER used covertly.
MYTH: Not enough polygraph exams can be done in one day.
TRUTH: Two to three polygraph exams can be conducted each day. Properly conducted examinations require preparation and cannot be rushed.

Detection of deception involves results that effect people for the rest of their lives. Make certain you weigh all the facts and verify all the claims before you chose which would produce the best results for you, your agency and the community you serve. You will discover what many already know — the only validated, reliable tool for detecting deception is the polygraph instrument!

The Government’s Position
The Department of Defense (DoD) has stated, based on extensive research by the Department of Defense Polygraph Institute (DoDPI), that the preponderance of scientific evidence clearly demonstrates the polygraph is far more accurate at detecting deception than is voice stress analysis. No Department of Defense agency uses any form of voice stress analysis for investigative purposes. The entire text of the published position statement of the Department of Defense Polygraph Institute concerning voice stress analysis may be found at www.polygraph.org.
MYTH: Many federal government agencies are satisfied customers of voice stress for detection of deception.
TRUTH: No federal government agency that has an established and accredited detection of deception program uses any form of voice stress

Voice Stress - Legal Liability?
MYTH: I can legally and without concern of liability use a
voice stress device to screen applicants.
TRUTH: The Equal Employment Opportunity Commission has stringent rules requiring any test used in hiring decisions be scientifically validated. This is what attorney Gordon Vaughan warns about using voice stress:
“The use of a scientifically invalidated technique such as voice stress for screening applicants or screening or disciplining employees, absent any validated study assessing whether there is a disparate impact of such testing on the bases of race or gender (see generally 29 C.F.R. sec 1607.1 et seq) may subject the user department to serious liability under EEOC rules.”
Gordon Vaughan, attorney, Vaughan & Demuro

Cost Comparison
MYTH: Polygraph is more expensive than voice stress.
TRUTH: Polygraph can actually be less expensive than voice stress.
POLYGRAPH
Total Cost $10,950
VOICE STRESS
Total Cost $11,290

Training
MYTH: Polygraph training takes too long.
TRUTH: Training is more than six days long. However, this training is necessary to produce a competent examiner. There are no short cuts to training — it must be all-inclusive. Not only does the training help produce court defensible techniques, it leads to better results and more confessions.

POLYGRAPH
Scientific History of Polygraph
Instrumentation
Test Question Construction
Polygraph Techniques
Test Data Analysis
Interviewing/Post-Test Procedures
Ethics
Development of Student Skills
Legal Issues
Psychology
Physiology
Student Performance Evaluation
Countermeasures and Examiner Precautions
Computer Polygraph Testing
Communications and Cultural Diversity
(There may be up to 8 specialized instructors per school.)
Total Classroom Time - 320 Hours (minimum)

VOICE STRESS
Device Training
Interviewing/Interrogation
Kinesics
Total Classroom Time - 6 Days

For more information on detection of deception devices, please visit the following websites:
www.voicestress.org
www.polygraph.org
www.wordnet.net/aapp/

http://www.polygraph.org/cvsa.pdf
[> Subject: Virginia does not allow Voice Stress although most law enforcement agencies use it


Author:
JD Bishop
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/11/06 2:12am

Other States, Government agencies and voice stress analyzers
Currently, the Commonwealth of Virginia only recognizes and approves the use of the polygraph instrument to detect deception. On this foundation, Mr. Daniele in his comments at the Roanoke public hearing session made a valid point. He states: (Reference Transcript)
“We trust the fact that state says that it (reference to the polygraph) is a valid, truth-seeking instrument to be used. If you approve this (reference to voice stress analyzers) then automatically just by the appearance of it, that everyone is going to believe that the state, Commonwealth of Virginia, is agreeing that this is a valid instrument”.

Written comment letters (Newby, David) and public hearing sessions (Hughes, David and Brick, Michael – Richmond session) made note that the Department of Defense and other federal agencies are using voice stress technology on a regular basis for homeland security and terrorism investigations. However, the statement received from the American Polygraph Association, after investigating this claim, states: “No Department of Defense agency uses any form of voice stress analysis for investigative purposes.” (Written comment – Baum, Sandi).
The only information that this study was able to verify relates to the recent aviation security measures signed by President Bush, S.1447 Sec. 109 (7). This authorizes the Secretary of Transportation to take certain measures, including but not limited to using the computer voice stress analyzer (see Appendix C). It could not be verified if the Secretary of Transportation is presently utilizing the computer voice stress analyzer with success under this provision.

Recent legislation shows that in January 2003, the State of Illinois recently rejected a bill that would:
Amend the Detection of Deception Examines Act. Allows an examiner who is a qualified operator of a Computer Voice Stress Analyzer that records voice stress factors pertinent to the detection of deception to use a Computer Voice Stress
Analyzer in place of the instrument that records the subject’s cardiovascular, respiratory, and galvanic skin response patterns. Sets the minimum training standards for a qualified operator.

Other states that have recently rejected similar bills are Texas (1999) and Oklahoma. It appears that out of the 50 states, there are currently only nine states that do not recognize or approve the use of computer voice analyzers.
The complete list:
- Illinois
- Oklahoma
- Michigan
- Texas
- Vermont
- Virginia
- South Carolina
- Kentucky
- North Dakota
* USA TODAY article (2002)

Conclusions & Recommendations
A review of the current literature and summarization of the four public hearing sessions and written comments uncover a continuing polarized debate between the polygraph and voice stress communities. The conflict arises from the lengthy history and regulation of the polygraph compared to the mostly unregulated new technology of voice analyzer equipment. There have been several scientific studies conducted on the polygraph over the years, and while no study has indicated the polygraph to be 100% accurate, it has still been deemed a reliable instrument to detect deception when used correctly. On the other hand, there has been no independent scientific evidence to indicate that the computer voice analyzer is a valid instrument to detect
deception. The only evidence that has been presented and reviewed, to date, consists of testimonials and other anecdotal evidence.
It is not discounted or overlooked that the computer stress analyzers currently in use, are very well received by the law enforcement at large in the United States. In spite of this, the Polygraph Examiners Advisory Board must rely upon scientific data and research available.

Because there have been no independent scientific studies conducted on the reliability of the computer voice analyzer to detect deception, the Board recommends to the Director of the Department of Professional and Occupational regulation that computer voice analyzer equipment should not be approved in Virginia at this time.

http://www.polygraph.org/images/virginiavoicestressstudy.pdf
[> Subject: Polygraph a procedure w/o scientific basis


Author:
JD Bishop
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/11/06 2:48am

Forensic "Lie Detection":
Procedures Without Scientific Basis
William G. Iacono, PhD
http://www.haworthpress.com/store/ArticleAbstract.asp?sid=LCVPXPCSGC2A8MUTC9XWCTXNM5MJED15&ID=13713

ABSTRACT. This paper provides a critical overview of the scientific status of the control question test (CQT), the type of polygraph test most likely to be used in forensic settings. The CQT is based on an implausible set of assumptions that makes it biased against innocent individuals and easy for guilty persons to defeat using countermeasures. Due to serious methodological problems that characterize research on CQT validity, it is not possible to use the existing literature to provide a satisfactory error rate estimate. Scientists, including members of the Society for Psychophysiological Research and APA Fellows, hold negative views about the CQT. They do not believe that it is based on sound theory, that it has adequate psychometric properties, or that it should be used as evidence in court. [Article copies available for a fee from The Haworth Document Delivery Service: 1-800-342-9678.

Because there is no characteristic physiological response associated with lying, it is not possible to ask a person to answer a relevant question about an alleged misdeed (e.g., "Did you stab John?"), record nervous system reactions, and make a determination of truthfulness. Polygraphy has attempted to circumvent this problem by including in addition to a relevant question, a comparison question that is also used to elicit physiological reactions (typically electrodermal activity, blood pressure, and respiration). The first polygraph tests used as comparisons what have been called irrelevant questions, items dealing with unimportant facts known to both examiner and suspect (e.g., " Are you sitting down?", "Is today Tuesday?"). If a suspect responds more strongly to the relevant question, guilt is indicated, while similar sized responses to both types of questions signifies innocence. This relevant/irrelevant test (RIT) format has been found wanting even by proponents of polygraphy because the irrelevant items do not provide an adequate control for the emotional impact of simply being presented with the accusatory relevant question. Because the relevant question is more likely to be physiologically arousing than the irrelevant question even to an innocent person, it is perhaps not surprising that the RIT is widely believed to be strongly biased against innocent {77} persons (Horowitz, Kircher, Honts, & Raskin, 1997). Hence, it is seldom used in forensic investigations.

The CQT represents an effort to circumvent the problems inherent to the RIT by introducing a so-called "control" question, the response to which is compared to the relevant question. Control questions are intended to elicit a lie or at least concern by posing a vague question covering possible minor misdeeds from a person's past. Examples of control questions include "Have you ever hurt someone to get revenge?', or "Have you ever lied to a person in a position of authority?" The theory of the CQT assumes that it is highly likely that you have hurt someone or lied to an authority figure, so these questions will provide an example of what your physiological reactions to lies look like. CQT theory further assumes that innocent people, because they are being truthful when they answer relevant questions "no," will be relatively unaroused by these questions. Instead, they are expected to be worried about their response to the control questions, so these items should produce larger reactions. Guilty individuals, even though presumably lying to both questions, are expected to respond more strongly to the relevant question because it carries greater significance.

Hence, for the CQT to be valid, two assumptions must hold. The first requires innocent individuals to be more responsive to control than relevant questions. The second requires guilty persons to respond more intensely to relevant than control questions. The plausibility of both of these assumptions can be easily challenged.

A major limitation of the CQT is that, as was the case for the RIT, the comparison questions do not offer an adequate psychological control for the emotional impact of being asked the accusatory relevant question. Most innocent people are savvy enough to understand that whether they pass or fail the test will depend on how they respond to the relevant questions rather than to the trivial issues covered by the control questions. That is, the relevant questions are the most important questions on the test for both innocent and guilty people. One reason why we might be tempted to believe that lie detection works stems from the common knowledge that lying is often associated with anxiety and accompanied by physiological arousal. However, we are likely to respond similarly when confronted with a false accusation, even when truthfully denied. It is for this reason that the CQT, like the RIT, is also biased against innocent individuals.

{78} The notion that guilty suspects will necessarily respond more strongly to relevant than control questions is unlikely for several reasons. The work of Honts and colleagues (Honts, Raskin, & Kircher, 1994) indicates that the guilty can beat a CQT by augmenting artificially their responses to control questions. This can be accomplished using simple countermeasures such as curling the toes, lightly biting the tongue, or performing mental arithmetic when control questions are asked. Because information regarding how to use these types of countermeasures is readily available in bookstores, libraries and through the worldwide web, examiners are unlikely to know when a subject possesses countermeasure knowledge. Moreover, because the use of these procedures is invisible to the examiner, it is not possible to determine when they are employed (Honts et al., 1994).

The work of Honts et al. shows that with less than 30 minutes of instruction, during which subjects are taught to recognize control questions and are told to use these countermeasures in response to them, 50% or more of guilty individuals subsequently defeat the CQT. Although polygraph proponents assert that typical polygraph subjects may not be able to figure out how to use countermeasures on their own, this hypothesis has not been adequately evaluated. There are studies that have addressed this issue by having introductory psychology course students, guilty by virtue of carrying out a mock crime, try to defeat the CQT, but these studies have done little to adequately motivate subjects to succeed. For instance, in one experiment where subjects were specifically taught countermeasures (Honts, Hodes, & Raskin, 1985), although students were offered double course credit if they could beat the CQT, over 20% of the subjects admitted not trying countermeasures, and it is not known how many others failed to comply with the study protocol.

A possible advantage of the typical CQT is that when questions are introduced to subjects, no distinction is made between control and relevant questions. Hence, some unsophisticated individuals may not readily understand how important it is to respond more strongly to control questions if they expect to pass the test, or that passing the test would be assured if they artificially augmented their responses to control questions. A similar advantage is not conferred by a variant of the CQT that is gaining more widespread use: the directed lie test (DLT). With the DLT, the control questions are replaced with directed lie questions that the subject is told are designed to elicit a response to {79} a known lie. Examples of directed lies include "Have you ever told even one lie?" and "Have you ever made even one mistake?" Subjects are told to think of specific incidents of lies or mistakes when answering these questions "no" to deliberately provoke a reaction to a lie. Given the transparent purpose of directed lies, even psychologically naïve guilty subjects are likely to comprehend the value of an augmented response to directed lie control questions, making this CQT variant especially vulnerable to countermeasures.

Another factor undermining the CQT's validity with guilty suspects concerns habituation to the charges covered by the relevant question. Often subjects are given lie detector tests long after a crime was committed and only after repeatedly denying the accusations covered by relevant questions. With repeated presentation to emotionally charged material, autonomic responses habituate over time. Hence, the issues raised by relevant questions on a CQT are likely to lose their potency over time, eventually eliciting weak autonomic nervous system reactions. Control questions, by contrast, represent novel issues that are unlikely to have come up prior to the polygraph test, and therefore can be expected to elicit relatively strong responses in some individuals. These factors are also likely to lessen the likelihood that guilty individuals will respond more strongly to relevant than control questions.

CQT ERROR RATE

Unfortunately, it is not possible to use the existing polygraphy literature to accurately estimate the validity of the CQT. This state of affairs persists for a variety of reasons (Iacono & Lykken, 1997a), the most important of which is that it is very difficult to conduct research on polygraph test validity that provides an accurate estimate of how well the CQT works in real life.

Laboratory Studies. Two types of validity study are possible. One relies on laboratory investigations where volunteer subjects, often undergraduate students seeking course credit, are asked to simulate a crime. These mock crime studies are too unlike real life to offer any realistic insight to how polygraph tests work in the field. For instance, the consequences of failing a test are trivial; the privacy-invading control questions are apt to be more disturbing to innocent subjects than relevant questions that carry little psychological significance; and {80} guilty individuals are tested immediately after the simulated crime, minimizing the likelihood of habituation to the issues raised in relevant questions. In addition, because the stakes are so low, it matters little if a guilty person fails a laboratory-based CQT, so there is no natural incentive to develop or learn about countermeasure strategies.

Field Studies. Field studies of real-life cases provide the best opportunity for estimating CQT error rates. However, studies based on such cases are severely limited by methodological problems that are generally ignored by CQT proponents. The main advantage of laboratory studies, that one can be certain of ground truth (who is guilty and who is innocent), is the major disadvantage of field studies. Typically ground truth is established by using confessions to identify the guilty and exculpate co-suspects in the same case. Once ground truth is established, the polygraph charts of these individuals can be blindly scored and hit rates for verified guilty and innocent individuals can be determined. About a dozen field studies have been carried out using confessions to determine ground truth (for critiques of these studies, see Iacono & Lykken, 1997a; Iacono & Lykken, 1999; Iacono & Patrick, 1987). These studies vary widely in their methodological sophistication and in reported hit rates, which range from about 50% accuracy for innocent people to nearly 100% for guilty suspects. However, as explained below, these confession-based investigations have one serious flaw in common: the ground truth criterion is not independent of the outcome of the polygraph test.

A major goal of polygraph testing is to solve crimes by extracting occasional confessions from those who fail the tests. Indeed, it is this benefit of polygraph tests that justifies their use in the absence of compelling validity data. Law enforcement agencies tend to administer polygraph tests only in certain cases (Iacono, 1991; Patrick & Iacono, 1991). For most of these cases, investigative efforts have failed to yield compelling incriminating evidence, and it is likely the case will go unsolved unless a suspect confesses. It is at this point in an investigation that suspects are likely to be asked to take a polygraph test. In a case with multiple suspects, only one of whom could be guilty, suspects are tested until one fails. This individual is then presented with the results of the test, and subsequently interrogated in an effort to extract a confession. Even if no confession is obtained, the case will be considered resolved, with the individual who failed the test identified as the suspect most likely to be guilty. If there are other {81} suspects in the same case who have not yet been polygraphed, it is unlikely that they will be tested because: (a) polygraph examiners believe the CQT to be highly accurate, so they are comfortable with the conclusion that the individual with the "deception indicated " polygraph verdict is in fact guilty; and (b) polygraph testing involves an expenditure of a limited resource that could best be applied to other cases which, unlike the one in question, are still in need of resolution.

It is against this backdrop that scientists doing field research on polygraph accuracy must select cases, relying only on those that elicited a confession from one of the suspects. Once such cases have been selected, the standard procedure is to have the polygraph charts blindly rescored by an examiner with no knowledge of the case facts, and to compare the verdicts from these rescored charts to confession verified ground truth in the particular case. Because polygraph test scoring is highly reliable (e.g., when 267 blindly rescored polygraph charts were compared to the scores of original police examiners, the interscorer reliability was .93; Patrick & Iacono, 1991), the blindly rescored charts will almost always match the scoring of the original examiners. There are a number of reasons why this field study research methodology will overestimate polygraph test accuracy.

Selecting cases because they generated a confession systematically eliminates from study all cases where the original examiner made an error. If an innocent person failed a polygraph test, this error would go undetected because there would be no confession. Absent this ground truth criterion, the case would not be included in the field validity study. If a guilty person passed the test, again there would be no confession, and the case would not be selected for study. In fact the only cases selected for study would be those where the original examiner was both correct and obtained a verifying confession. For these selected, unrepresentative cases, the original examiner must be correct 100% of the time. Because chart scoring is so reliable, the blind rescoring of the charts is likely to match the original examiner's scoring, and is thus likely to match ground truth. Hence, the validity estimate derived from the degree to which the blindly rescored charts match ground truth will yield a greatly inflated, misleading estimate of polygraph test accuracy.

A scientifically sound field validity study must remove the confound that exists when cases are selected only when a confession followed a test scored deceptive. To date, there has been only one {82} study that has attempted to circumvent this methodological problem (Patrick & Iacono, 1991). In this study, which was carried out with the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, cases were selected because no confession was obtained following the administration of polygraph tests. The researchers examined evidence subsequently collected, as police investigations of the cases continued, to identify those cases that ultimately ended with a confession. These confessions, which were not dependent on polygraph test outcome, were used to establish ground truth and were compared to the results of blindly rescored polygraph tests administered in the case. Two interesting results emerged. First, the accuracy of the CQT with confession verified innocent suspects was only 57%. Second, it was not possible to estimate accuracy for guilty subjects because once a suspect failed a polygraph test, even with no confession, the police generally stopped investigating the case, so no new evidence was developed to establish ground truth. The cases that the police continued to investigate after suspects were polygraphed were generally those that ended without strong polygraphic indications of guilt, and some of these cases turned up suspects who confessed but who did not take a polygraph test. Hence, their confessions verified that those who took the polygraph test were innocent, and it was the inclusion of cases like these that made it possible to estimate polygraph test accuracy for innocent individuals.

Friendly Tests. Defense attorneys representing defendants who have passed a CQT often ask the court to admit the test results. These types of tests have been characterized as "friendly" because the outcome of the test is protected by attorney-client privilege: results are released only if a truthful verdict is obtained. Under the circumstances, defendants have little to lose by taking the test, and the fear of being identified as guilty that exists when the police administer an adversarial CQT is absent with a friendly test. Unfortunately, field studies of the CQT are based on the outcomes of adversarial tests. There are no investigations regarding the validity of friendly tests. Given that the fear of detection likely to exist with friendly tests must be substantially lower than that for adversarial tests, it is likely that the false negative error rate associated with friendly tests is higher than that for adversarial tests.

{83} GENERAL ACCEPTANCE
IN THE SCIENTIFIC COMMUNITY

Because the existing literature on the CQT cannot be used to provide a satisfactory accuracy estimate and experts are sharply divided on this issue, the opinions of unbiased scientists capable of evaluating the soundness of the CQT and the claims of polygraph proponents are of considerable interest. To obtain this information, David Lykken and I (lacono & Lykken, 1997b) carried out two surveys of the members of two different scientific organizations varying in the type of expertise and perspective they bring to the evaluation of polygraphy. The first survey was of members of the Society for Psychophysiological Research (SPR; 91% response rate) and the second was of Fellows of the American Psychological Association's Division of General Psychology (APA-DGP; 74% response rate).

Two earlier surveys, neither of which was published in a scientific journal, were carried out with SPR members. Responses to a single question, repeated across both surveys, have been used to argue that scientists have a favorable view of forensic polygraphy because about 61% of respondents to both surveys agreed that "polygraph test interpretation" constituted "a useful diagnostic tool when considered with other available information." We found it difficult to interpret this survey result because the question dealt neither with the CQT nor its use in court. In addition, the question does not specifically address validity, and no questions were asked regarding either the soundness of the psychological foundation of the CQT or the claims of high accuracy made by the pro-polygraph community. To remedy these deficiencies, we made clear to respondents that we were querying them about the CQT and included a description of the test and its theoretical basis from one of the CQT's leading proponents (Raskin, 1986). We also asked a variety of questions relevant to the scientific controversies surrounding the CQT.

The results of our survey indicated that the members of both scientific organizations had very similar opinions about the CQT. Only about a third of those surveyed believed the CQT was scientifically sound, and only about a quarter thought polygraph evidence should be admissible in court. Few opined that the CQT was a standardized test (20%) or objective (10%). The great majority held that the CQT could be defeated by countermeasures that were easily learned and they {84} expressed substantial skepticism in the validity of friendly CQTs and in the accuracy claims of polygraph proponents. When members of both organizations were divided into subgroups according to their level of self-professed expertise on CQT validity, there was little difference in their opinions as a function of how informed they were on the topic, with the vast majority of both more and less informed respondents from both organizations possessing a strongly negative view of the CQT.

CONCLUSION

Although the CQT may be useful as an investigative aid and tool to induce confessions, it does not pass muster as a scientifically credible test. CQT theory is based on naive, implausible assumptions indicating (a) that it is biased against innocent individuals and (b) that it can be beaten simply by artificially augmenting responses to control questions. Although it is not possible to adequately assess the error rate of the CQT, both of these conclusions are supported by published research findings in the best social science journals (Honts et al., 1994; Horvath, 1977; Kleinmuntz & Szucko, 1984; Patrick & Iacono, 1991). Although defense attorneys often attempt to have the results of friendly CQTs admitted as evidence in court, there is no evidence supporting their validity and ample reason to doubt it. Members of scientific organizations who have the requisite background to evaluate the CQT are overwhelmingly skeptical of the claims made by polygraph proponents.
[> Subject: thanks


Author:
student
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/11/06 5:25pm

You should be a teacher! Great info.
Subject: What's "The Beef" With The DA?


Author:
Patrick McGee
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/11/06 4:28pm

I've kind of lost touch with the point of all these musing/rantings about Clatsop County D.A. Josh Marquis.

What's your complaint? Really.

Is he doing his job?

After 13 years in office, why do you think nobody will run against him?
[> Subject: what do you like about josh sell me on him


Author:
melissa
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 8/06 12:58am

since i am not a lawyer i dont know why one of their 'ilk' have chosen not to run. personally i think it is a sign of a healthy community when someone is running against the encumbent.

explain this to me. someone is the vicepresident of the national district attorneys association, is a sought after commentator on cspan court tv and talk radio as well on a multitude of magazines and book reviews and he choses to be the da of a county of 33250 people in an area that has no family ties? why? yeah yeah he was appointed (an appt he accepted) so why does he stay?

tell me what you see as the things he has done specifically for clatsop county without them being either so nonspecific they could be applied to any community he was serving as a da of or as a talking point for something else, rungs on his ladder taking him somewhere else.

i do not have any one thing "against" josh. as was pointed out, that would be sophomoric. i am looking at why is he here and is he doing the best job for clatsop county or is it the best job for josh and by default that makes it what should be whats best for clatsop county?
[> [> Subject: I'm Asking The Question Here.......


Author:
Patrick McGee
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 8/06 8:29am

Once again this ain't third grade and it's not about liking or disliking somebody.

The questions is; Is DA Marquis doing the job he was elected to do and if not, what is your criticism of his work?

Why am I here when I could be making 30-40% more money living in the Portland or some other Northwestern Metro area?

Because I love this place and I feel I can do some good here and I hope I have honorably done so.

Marquis?

You think he could be here for the same reason?

Why are you here?

What, specifically, have you done for the community?

What's your plan for your contribution to our future and quality of life here?

Those questions could apply to all of us here just as well.
[> [> [> Subject: don't think so


Author:
nancy
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 8/06 11:25am


It is very common, normal, so very RIGHT to have questions about a powerful government employee, especially after reading national bad press about him.
He could have a hard time finding another job.
He goes where the people want him.
Who wouldn't like it here?
Citizens were asleep when he first came to office.
[> [> [> Subject: What's your plan for a better community?


Author:
JD Bishop
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 9/06 12:15am

Show us how this is done, pardner. You called this rodeo so saddle up and give us a good ride.
[> [> [> [> Subject: We heard he don't know a saddle from a spur


Author:
Carlotti
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 9/06 12:26am

He kills other people's threads ... his are dead.

He shows respect ... we cancel the horse head.
[> [> [> Subject: answers


Author:
voter
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/11/06 4:28pm

Besides LNG? What is your plan for the community?
There is no beef, just honest questions. Is everything a beef with you?
I would not want to be on a jury with you! Knowing your support for Marquis and his "everyone is guilty" even after dna has surfaced. For that matter I would excuse myself if I was picked . What about the taxpayers money he has spent foolishly. It's your money, don't you care? I do! I expect and everyone deserves justice not Marquis justice.
Justice is way more important then LNG and talk about waterfront condo's.
You do not have the ability anymore to pick your own agenda to distract quiet citizens.
One would think you lived in Price's district the way you pushed and pushed for her county seat.
Subject: "It Had To Be Willis"


Author:
O' Blue Eyes
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/11/06 1:17pm



It had to be you
It had to be you
I wandered around and finally found
The somebody who
could make me be true
Could make me be blue
or even be glad Just to be sad
thinking of you

Some others I've seen.
might never be mean
Might never be cross
or try to be boss
But they wouldn't do
For nobody else gave me a thrill
With all your faults I love you still
It had to be you, wonderful you
It had to be you

Some others I've seen.
might never be mean
Might never be cross
or try to be boss
But they wouldn't do
For nobody else gave me a thrill
With all your faults I love you still
It had to be you, wonderful you
It had to be yooouuuuuuuuuuuuu...

[> Subject: uh one and a two and a three


Author:
chairman of the board
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/11/06 1:14am


Its quarter to three,
Theres no one in City Hall cept you and me
So set em up joe
I got a little story I think you oughtta know

Were drinking my friend
To the end of a brief episode
So make it one for me, the Mayor
And one more for the road

I know the routine
I wont blow in that there breath machine
Im feeling so bad
Wont you make the music easy and sad

I could tell you a lot
But you gotta to be true to your code
So make it one for me, the Mayor
And one more for the road

Youd never know it
But buddy Im a kind of poet
And if you get bored
I've been to Betty Ford, so listen to me
Till its all, all talked away

Well, thats how it goes
And joe I know youre gettin anxious to close
So thanks for the cheer
I hope you didnt mind
My bending your ear

But this torch that I found
Its gotta be drowned
Or it soon might explode
So make it one for me, the mayor
And one more for the road

[> [> Subject: no mayor problems


Author:
justice for all
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/11/06 12:31pm

looks to me like the da has the problems. How about a poem for him and let the mayor be.
[> [> [> Subject: That's the problem!


Author:
The rest of the board (And you are fired!!!)
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/11/06 1:01pm

He has been left be that's why we got a problem and it will not go away unless you are one a them that keeps their ears warm by stinking it in the sand.
[> [> [> [> Subject: justice


Author:
justice for all
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/11/06 1:17pm

I agree Willis nor should anyone drink and drive. All eyes will be on him, now we need to move forward and find out what Clatsop County's DA has been up. Sounds like "no good"
Subject: 11th Hour Bombshell Hits Price Write In Campaign


Author:
Icepick
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 9/06 11:07pm

A shocking development in the Cynthia Price write in for Clatsop County Commisoner campaign was made public earlier today when she disclosed directly that she had indeed been employed earlier in her career as an executive editorial aid to the notorious American publishing magnate and pornographer Larry Flynt.

Rumors had been flying in various circles since before the primary last May, but no denial or confirmation had been forthcoming from the campaign or candidate until today. The following statement was posted on Ms. Price's weblog at approximately 9:30 a.m PST on 11/6/06
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
"I worked for LFP Inc -- Larry Flynt Publications -- soon after he moved the mags from Columbus OH to LA. January 1978 to maybe March or April 1979. Flynt was shot in March '78. I was the assistant production manager, so I worked for all the LFP magazines -- and there were a lot of them at the time. Hustler. Chic. Slam. Some others that would last a few months. They were wild days with highly creative people (and some just highly high people). "

--Cynthia Price

From Ms. Price's Weblog, The Daily 750
--------------------------------------------------------------------

Local race watchers and political pundits were reported to be stunned by the disclosure and several volunteers and Price co-workers at community radio station KMUN were said have gone slacked jawed and speechless but as far as this writer knows none required medical attention.

Price had been dogged repeatedly on various webboards during the primary runoff last May answering accusations that she was a California native and thus may not have Clatsop County's and Oregon's best interest at heart.
[> Subject: Who Cares?


Author:
THartill
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 6/06 11:17pm


You think this is going to have any effect on a "non-existant-until-2-days-ago write in campaign"?
[> [> Subject: who noticed?


Author:
a-nonny-mouse
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 7/06 6:35am

Has anyone been to Price's old campaign site (or was it her blog site) and noticed that under a heading called "jobs' I've had" it lists working for Larry Flynt productions. (?) Not really a revelation to hear this news now or a "bombshell", I think some just didn't notice until now. She made the disclosure some time ago publicly on her site and no one seemed to have noticed.
[> Subject: Oh My God!!!......You Think.......


Author:
Patrick McGee
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 7/06 8:03am

She might have had "SEX" with somebody in her past as well?

And we're getting ready to elect a Three Time DUII "Specialist" to the Mayoralship of Astoria, Oregon, another DUII proponent to the Mayoralship of Warrenton, Oregon, a Napoleanic egotist to Clatsop Counyty Commission and somebody's in a panic over someone working for a magazine?

Jesus Christ and his daddy Joe too!!!!!
[> [> Subject: "Mayoralship"??? "Napoleanic"???


Author:
Larry Flynt
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 8/06 1:02am

"Mayoralship"? Thats really a word?....... lol!!!

Cool your jets, sonny, the people have spoken. Willy boy has been, and will continue to be, a great mayor...
[> [> [> Subject: Willis Van DUII


Author:
Al
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 8/06 6:47am

A stunning victory.

As the sign says "Another 4 years of Willis won't kill us."

But it might kill YOU!

But hey, he's a native!
[> [> [> Subject: Just The Support Willis Needs....Larry Flint?


Author:
Patrick McGee
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 8/06 8:09am

God almighty, he's already fighting a huge battle with addiction, now he's got Larry Flint as a buddy?

I congratulate Willis most heartily on his expected victory but, I'm certain he won't be going around boasting about that 204 vote victory margin after 16 years of self-annointed excellence in government.
[> [> [> [> Subject: Man your battle stations, Willis!


Author:
God almighty
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 8/06 2:46pm

"he's already fighting a huge battle with addiction"
--------------------------------------------------------------------

Ooooh, that statement is rich with imagery....By your reasoning WVD is locked in mortal combat with his demons on the scale of Armageddon, while the fate of Astoria hangs in the balance.
Who will win? Will our mayor heroically prevail and vanquish the enemy, or will he himself be defeated and be tossed into that everloving Lake Of Hell Fire right along with his beloved town that loves him?

Only time will tell, children, only time will tell.

GO WILLIS GO!!! FIGHT WILLIS FIGHT!!

WIN THAT HUGE BATTLE YOUR FIGHTING.
YOU ARE OUR HERO, OUR KNIGHT IN SHINING ARMOR!!
[> [> [> [> Subject: Hey McGee


Author:
Flakey Foont
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 8/06 5:23pm

In your interview with the Oregonian, you called yourself an architect. You've lied about being architect before, are you now a real architect, or still just selling houseplans that anyone can get from shareware?
[> [> [> [> [> Subject: That Blind Chicken Looking For That Kernal Of Corn


Author:
Patrick McGee
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 8/06 6:40pm

Ah!! You Got Me!!

I've been outed!

Better publish another "scoop"

As a matter of fact you best call Lori Tobias with The Oregonian and tell her I lied to her.

I am so ashamed.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: You Aren't The Media Wizard Who Dropped The Cindy Price/Larry Flint Bombshell Are you?


Author:
Patrick McGee
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 8/06 7:23pm

Good work again.

You know you could make a career out of this.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Oh Mr. McGeeeeeeee.......read our lips.....


Author:
Church Ladies Auxillary
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 8/06 8:54pm


[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: hahahaha


Author:
neededtoseethis
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 8/06 11:51pm

this is prob going to get tossed. but i love that i saw it.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: I VOTE NO CENCORSHIP


Author:
Dana Cravey
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 8/06 11:54pm

He'll just love that he started something here. Leave it up until he asks for it to come down. That's what the posting rules say right?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: So Another Personality Emerges?


Author:
Patrick McGee
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 9/06 7:29am

So now we can add "The Church Lady" to the collection of personalities?

And such a "Bad Ass" attitude.

"Shut The Fuck Up"?

That the message you are trying to convey?

How very Democratic of this site.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: ask the DA


Author:
wondering
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 9/06 7:45am

Mr. Marquis ? Do you believe in Jesus Christ ?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Do you judge the whole town on one person?


Author:
JD Bishop
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 9/06 11:44am

Yes, a very democratic site. One which everyone can speak there mind, even the whack jobs that have no self control and ruin threads for everyone else.

Once again you seem intent on ruining everyone's fun here to drive them to your forum. Grow up, man, grow up.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Amen


Author:
Flakey Foont
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 9/06 12:13pm

Isn't it about time for another set of McGee's "fair and balanced" polls? The ones with more votes for McGee's position than actual votes?
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: RE. No self control????


Author:
Daffey Duck
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 9/06 1:58pm

"Whack job"?????


Well excuuuuuuuuuuuuse me, Dr. Freud. Had I known pyshciatric examination and diagnosis came gratis with my admittedly weak attempts at humor and letting a little of the air out of overinflated windbags, bleaters, blatherers and bloviating posers, I might very well have struggled for just enough self control to prevent me from starting this thread in the first place.

But on second thought? Nahhhhhhhhhhhhhh.
Besides, I take being labled a "whack job" on this board a form of acceptance. You know, birds of a feather and all that.
I will give you the last word, Doctor.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Ruining Everybodys' Fun?.....


Author:
Patrick McGee
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 9/06 2:10pm

Bwhahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!

Teeheeheeheeheehee...Bwah, Bwahahahahahahahahaha!

Whooooooeee!

Everyone can speak their minds?

Bwahahahahahahahhahahahahahaha!!!

Drive them to my Forum? http://bridgecity.homestead.com

Bwahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!

Rip The Clatsop County District Attorney a new asshole?

No self-control and ruin threads for everyone else?

Bwhahahahahahahaha....Hiccup!...cough...cough...Man! that's funny.

OK, I'll go away and leave you all to your fun, democracy

Grow Up?

Never.

Adios my friends.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: OH NO! Patrick is leaving again!


Author:
THartill
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 9/06 11:07pm

He'll be back.
Subject: tomorrow's DHS hearing in Salem


Author:
Susan Detlefsen
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 9/06 2:01pm

To: Media contacts, Judges, others concerned about child welfare in
Oregon

Please see Representative Anderson's attached press release regarding
tomorrow's hearing in Salem.

Susan Detlefsen

> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Families Tell Child Welfare Horror Stories Friday
> From: "Rep Anderson"
> Date: Wed, September 27, 2006 9:55 pm
> To: REP Anderson
>
>
>
> NEWS RELEASE September 27, 2006 State Representative Gordon Anderson House District 3 Contact: Dawn Phillips 503-750-1764 Oregon Families Share Child Welfare Horror Stories Friday (Salem) The Interim House Task Force on Child Welfare will hear families from all over Oregon who believe theyve been treated unfairly by the Department of Human Services, Children, Adults and Families Division this Friday September 29th at the State Capitol. State Representative Gordon Anderson (R-Grants Pass), who requested the meeting, expects to hear, some of the emotional horror stories from families who feel DHS has treated them in a destructive way. The hearing starts at 1 pm in Hearing Room E. I have been saddened by the large number of families who have rushed to testify, with more writing every day, said Anderson. Due to time constraints only a limited number of families will be allowed to testify and the list is already full. Oregonian are encouraged to attend to listen to the testimony and submit comments to their own legislators. (www.leg.state.or.us) Parents, grandparents and other family members from as far away as Ontario and Klamath Falls are expected to attend Fridays hearing. Anderson is grateful to Task Force Chairman, State Representative Billy Dalto (R-Salem) for hosting the meeting. It is my hope that the members of this Task Force will use the cases they learn about Friday to push for changes in the law during the 2007 Legislative Session, explained Anderson. DHS claims its purpose is to restore families, but when someone gets on their bad side for one reason or another, it appears as if there is no stopping the agency from separating parents and children for years or permanently adopting the kids to a strange family, said Anderson. Ramona Foley, Assistant DHS Director, in charge of the Children, Adult and Families Division, is expected to be on hand Friday along with Clyde Saiki Deputy Director of Operations or DHS. Anderson pointed out actions by the agency dont just cause an emotional, but also a financial drain on the families. In many cases the state spends thousand of dollars in court costs taking children over the parents heartbreaking objections, while the family might go bankrupt fighting back. He added, This is wrong. Its time to accept healthy parental training and rid their lives of habits that make them poor parents. I hope our hearing on September 29th will start the process of bringing bad agency habits to light. ### 900 Court Street NE H-284, Salem, OR 97301 ~ 503.986.1403 www.leg.state.or.us/anderson ~ rep.gordonanderson@state.or.us
[> Subject: thanks for info and hard work


Author:
old timer
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 9/06 2:01pm

Your the best.
Subject: Judge Election


Author:
Janet
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 8/06 8:44am

Anyone notice about how many lawyers are supporting Don Haller. And not just criminal lawyers, but every single GOB in the county. One police chief but no police OFFICERS.
I don't know about you but I'm uncomfortable with a judge who owes lawyers so clearly. Isn't that the fox watching the henhouse?
Vote for the independent candidate....Matyas. She actually has worked as a judge.
[> Subject: Independent Candidate Matyas? Get real!


Author:
Ashley
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 6/06 8:54am

Matyas an "independent" candidate? Get real! Her husband works in the District Attorney's Office and she's friends with the DA's Office. You call that independent? I call that what looks like a real conflict of interest!

How in the world would Matyas ever be impartial? She's such buddies with the prosecutors office. I sincerely hope you're never accused of something you didn't do. You better watch out with Maytas!

Check into what it takes to be a municipal court judge in Oregon. Whoopee! No law degree required... You call that "experience"? She's never, never, never in Clatsop County Circuit Court. The only way she'd have a clue as to what's going on in Circuit Court is when her HUSBAND tells her!
[> [> Subject: Independent


Author:
Janet
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 6/06 9:15am

Well. let's see, haller make a big deal out of how was Chief Deputy DA gor much longer than Matyas. He's never been a judge of any kind. Matyas says her husband is quitting if she gets elecetd and if memory serves she competed with Marquis for the appoitment back in 1994.
"Ashley" must not think much of women if since she says :
"The only way she'd have a clue as to what's going on in Circuit Court is when her HUSBAND tells her!"
I'm real uncomfortable with someone all the lawyers seem so desperate to get elected.
[> [> [> Subject: It's Just Way Too Sticky........


Author:
Ashley
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 6/06 9:29am

Think about it. The "lawyers" know these two candidates well--they are the best judges of the candidates. They've worked with them and know them. Have you? They know their work experience and temperament.

What I think they know is they never see Matyas in Circuit Court. They know of the qualifications needed to be an Oregon Municipal Court Judge. They know which candidate has been the busy lawyer handling cases in Circuit Court every day. They know. Yeah, they do know.

Yeah,Matyas' husband should have quit before she even decided to run. It just looks too dirty to me. She's still friends with all the DA's in that Astoria office. I certainly don't see that as being impartial when you're such friends with all the prosecutors! A DA's Office is supposed to be the , not good friends with the judge! Impartial? Oh my! Certainly seems too sticky for me.
[> [> [> [> Subject: The Lawyers Know It's A Toss-Up


Author:
Patrick McGee
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 6/06 10:12am

Still, I voted for Matyas simply because I'd like to here a different noise coming out of Justice.

Maybe she might be pivotal in creating some inroads to finding answers to some of the issues active litigators like Haller, Judges like Nelson and Brownhill have yet to find an answer to simply because there's no apparent urgency to do so.

Then there's "CCC Retread", Russ Earl(Why does he think he will impact policy, process and transparency now any better than he did the other time?) and Ann Samuelson, another pea in "The GOB Pod", with a couple of exceptions.

Jeff Hazen? Totally "Tribal Ethic", who will always side with whatever prevailing force that is in control at the moment.

Hell!, might as well clone Richard Lee a couple more times.
[> [> [> [> Subject: Sticky? Come on thats ridiculous


Author:
Lois
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 6/06 2:43pm

Think about it -lawyers want to win and they want a judge that will let them do that. They are not going to endorse a lawyer to be a judge who will make their jobs harder. At this time there are two judges sitting on the bench that actually make a lawyer work. Aside from appearing in court most work is done by clerks, researching and typing writs/documents so forth. Ask a CLERK who they think would be best as Clatsop County's next judge. Hands down, Matayas. Even though their work won't get any easier at least they know their bosses will have to continue working, too.

Haller was taught law by the GOBs and he has too much time under his belt as a GOB himself. He does not have the courage or even the willingness to make a real ruling against a GOB. If its someone's turn, they will take it.

Matayas and Haller, as well as every single lawyer in Clatsop County, have some connection to the DAs office. Marquis is endorsing Haller and Matayas' husband is one of his ADAs.

Are we all like the blind men touching different parts of the same elephant? We all have peices that we KNOW are THE TRUTH while everyone else is just misled!

I hope that with either one the accused gets the best trial possible. So far, in any trial I have witnessed, the trials are very well run and I have never heard a contrary word regarding our judges. I would not want to see that change.

In my opinion Haller's hands are the sticky ones, Matayas' hands cannot be sticky if the only thing one is going on is that her husband is currently an ADA.
[> [> [> [> [> Subject: It remains really sticky with her...


Author:
Ashley
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 6/06 3:35pm

Oh please. Do you work in the courthouse? It sounds like it. As many people would say, the GOB's run the local cities and and those are the same people that appoint municipal court judges! Seems like you seem to over look that. Look at those little towns where Ms. Matyas works her few hours as a Municipal Court Judge. Whoopee.... look at the "horrible" crime (dogs barking, etc.) she is dealing with... whoopee. Get real, you don't even have to be an attorney to do the job she's been doing....

Matyas' Circuit Court EXPERIENCE? Why don't you tell us about that? How many times has she been in Clatsop County Circuit Court in the last year? You got the count? Do your homework and look at the court's logs...SHE IS NEVER THERE! She's been out soliciting voters... You tell me how those "CLERKS" you speak of know Matyas is the right choice...she's never in court... she never appears before any one sitting in Circuit Court. Oh, maybe she's just walking in to SOCIALIZE cause her husband works there! Isn't that a great qualification...our new judge knows how to SOCIALIZE with the courthouse staff... WOW, WON'T THAT MAKE US A GOOD JUDGE! Get real!

The "Matyas experience" is the small stuff...she hasn't handled any tough cases since when? Back in her ADA days... You seem like you know it all so maybe you can answer that question. Heck, she was only a divorce attorney wasn't she?

I will reiterate, I believe the local lawyers KNOW THE TWO CANDIDATES well and they clearly made their choice -- IT WAS NOT MATYAS! A smile doesn't make a good judge.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Matyas for Judge


Author:
Janet
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 6/06 6:44pm

Actually the City Council gave defense attorney Kris Kaino (who has endorsed Haller) the Muni Court job over Matyas.

Matyas is not only a judge in Astoria but also a couple other cities. Haller's experiemce as ANY kinmd of judge is zero. The local lawyers drafted him - he didn't even want the job - but the GOBs were terrified of an independent woman getting the job. Matyas owes nobody.

Matyas has handled homicide cases and maybe most importantly she had the guts to blow the whistle on her own boss back in 1993, then-DA Julie Leonhardt. THAT is the kind of courage we want to see in a judge!

Are you really so naive as to think that because the GOB "local lawyers" want a pet judge that he won't owe them...big time?
[> Subject: GOB's appoint muni judges


Author:
Whitey
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 6/06 9:15am

where do you come off with your comments anyway? "a judge who owes lawyers so clearly?" what are you talking about? you don't know a thing, but making b.s. comments. who are you to say no police officers enforce Haller? how do you know? maybe I know differently. support your facts before you go slamming people!

the matyas experience is a nothin to brag about! a position of a few hours a week isn't much to brag about. besides as said above go do your research on muni court judge qualifications...just gotta be appointed by, you might say, the GOB'S in power at the local city halls!!!!! so there! now, we can certainly say matyas is in with the GOB club!
[> [> Subject: GOBs


Author:
Janet
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 6/06 6:52pm

I just read the same newspaper ads you do. Haller is endorsed by a police chief and some ex-cops but where are the REAL cops' names in the endorsement. Maybe you have secret information the rest of us don't have.
The GOB club is in haller's ads. Just read the names!
Matyas is the part-time Astoria Muni judge because Willis Van Duii said he didn't think she should get the job over Kris Kaino, who endorses Haller!
[> [> [> Subject: Who Does DA Marquis Support For Judge?


Author:
Patrick McGee
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 6/06 7:36pm

Anybody know?
[> [> [> [> Subject: lol


Author:
maggie
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 7/06 5:23pm

Like you don't know.so funny
[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Actually, I've Never asked


Author:
Patrick McGee
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 7/06 7:11pm

Really
[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Marquis


Author:
Susan
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 7/06 8:34pm

Marquis says he is offically neutral but sources say he supports Matyas
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: And He's Got A Winner!


Author:
Patrick McGee
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 8/06 8:44am

The right candidate for the right job.
Subject: County Commission Meetings


Author:
Jeff Hazen
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 6/06 7:45pm

What are your thoughts on the proposal to put the recordings of the commission meetings on the county's website? Do you think that it should just be an audio version as Commissioner Westbrook suggested or would you like to see full audio and video of the meetings?

I checked out the Douglas County website and watched one of their meetings and I would encourage you to check it out and then share your thoughts. You can get to it by going to www.co.douglas.or.us

I thought it was fairly well done. One of Commissioner Westbrook's concerns about video was the potential hesitation of citizens appearing before a camera. I don't know how Douglas County has it set us but it seems to me that small discreet cameras would be appropriate rather than large cameras.

I am interested in exploring this further including the cost of it but I see it as a great way for people to view the meetings first hand in the comfort of their own home or office.
[> Subject: Audio Only


Author:
Patrick McGee
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 10/30/06 9:12pm

If it will get an accurate accounting of what transpires in a meeting with that body I say "Hell Yes!"

A Video/Audio Stream?

No way, too drag-ass slow for most computers plus it's better to here and comprehend what was said as opposed to the distraction of watching body language of the panel at the meeting.

If one wants a video versionm just go to a meeting .
[> [> Subject: Video


Author:
Jeff Hazen
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 10/31/06 8:48am

Patrick, did you watch the Douglas County meeting? I felt that it loaded quickly and was easy to watch.
[> [> [> Subject: Saw That Jeff, Still Gotta Stick With Audio


Author:
Patrick McGee
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 10/31/06 3:01pm

Me, personally, I would benefit more and deal with less hassle with video only but, whatever it takes to keep "The Public" in the process and accurately informed.
[> [> [> [> Subject: really like this idea use them both


Author:
melissa
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 4/06 1:03am

wonderful. why the either or? use both and let people decide which one they want to click on. i think the more people know about what is happening in the area, firsthand, the more they want to become part of stuff and are willing to pay for things. if they watch these meetings online they might start coming to them in person. you will get more people commenting on ideas that are being generated at the meetings quicker.
[> [> [> [> [> Subject: boulder colorados site is pretty neat too


Author:
melissa
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 4/06 1:30am

like here where they just say if you have a slow connection you will only get audio. you can even see archived meetings. i really like this. no more relying on peoples memories or minutes people dont agree with.
[> Subject: Of Course You Better Document Those Work Sessions The Week Before


Author:
Patrick McGee
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 5/06 4:30pm

Like it is with "the Port" that's where the decisions are made before "The Public" has a chance to review them and "The Official meeting" is the vaguley choreographed little play they put on for "The Publics" amusement.

A least, as some speculate and I have heard this for years, Astoria CC meets for dinner and drinks at their rehearsals but, I guess, at least temporarily, they will have to take some other measures.
[> [> Subject: Better Have Somebody Work On Getting Those Minutes Current Too!


Author:
Patrick McGee
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 6/06 7:45pm

And a Work Session/Rehearsal on the same day as a General Meeting?

Tsk, Tsk, Tsk.

Might want to pay some attention to that when you take your seat too Jeff.
Subject: Jewell


Author:
Watchman
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 6/06 10:28am

What is going on with the superintendent in Jewell?
[> Subject: This Ought To Be Interesting!


Author:
Patrick McGee
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11/ 6/06 10:28am

What do you think the odds are it isn't about him directly?
Subject: Waterfront Development Work Session


Author:
Lind Oldenkamp
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 10/30/06 2:26pm


WATERFRONT DEVELOPMENT IN ASTORIA

Do you care about the amount, design, number, type, height, quality, etc. of waterfront buildings in Astoria?

A second work session to discuss existing development on the waterfront and the potential for future development will be held this Wednesday, November 1st, at
5:30 p.m., in the Flag Room at the Astoria Public Library. The purpose of the session is to discuss the status of the existing development on the waterfront and the potential for future development. The work session is open to the public, and public testimony and comments will be taken.

This is your opportunity to comment, share your concerns, and show that you care.
[> Subject: this is something that i would be interested in however


Author:
melissa
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 10/30/06 2:26pm

if i cant make it it isnt because i dont care but because it is such short notice. i havent seen any other notices of this group meeting dont get the daily (even tho theyve been bombarding my home with phone solicitations every sunday for the past month to do so). maybe youve been advertising this to the hilt and my heads been up ... in the clouds? hope youve hit more than the daily enquirer in advertising efforts.

how many people use the college paper for posting info? if the college bond passes how much more do you expect out of the college? sorry to hijack this thread. maybe ill start another.
Subject: Measure 42 Just posted to Lars Larson since they wouldn't let me talk live


Author:
Nora
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 10/30/06 10:50am

You are using straw man arguments in your stance against measure 42. Insurance companies already are saying "contact us, we can get you substancially lower rate, you can talk to a "live agent to explain your life situation," (State Farm, Progressive and Geico, yet they all still use credit scores) so that one doesn't fly. There isn't a single study out there that shows ANY correlation between low credit scores and higher claims. Plus, people with good credit do not pay substancially lower rates than people with average credit scores yet people with low credit scores pay substancially higher rates than people with average credit scores. Insurance companies will not raise the rates of anyone in Oregon if the ballot measure passes (anymore than they can get away with doing on a normal basis), they just won't be charging excessive rates to people with low credit scores or refusing them service. If you really cared about your fellow Oregonians, instead of wanting to be a "radio personality," you'd do the research and let them know this measure is good for them and their pocket book. You'd pretend it was for your grandma and child on a fixed income, living in a part of Oregon without any public transportation and needing to get to work with the cheapest amount of insurance possible. Instead, you pick a hot topic and, like the media gadfly you are, you pick your buzz words and have diarrhea of mouth. Shame on you!
[> Subject: 27 US bills this year would ban the use of credit scoring by insurers


Author:
Nora
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 10/ 6/06 5:01pm

According to Property Casualty Insurers Association of America, 18 states considered 48 bills dealing with insurance scoring in 2006. Of those, 27 would have completely banned the use of credit scoring by insurers.
[> Subject: One would think ...


Author:
Walter Richards
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 10/ 8/06 2:41pm

... people with bad credit would be better drivers. Why? Because they know they can't afford to get in an accident, due to the difficulty they would have purchasing another vehicle.

Of course, such thinking would be "common sense" - which isn't so common anymore.
[> [> Subject: Good point, Walter!


Author:
Sandy
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 10/ 8/06 4:24pm

Lars never was one to to use logic, tho. It is aggravating to hear all of the garbage they are throwing out there. I hate this time of year for television. I wonder at what point can the market become so saturated that the politician realizes they are really harming the public with their lies? Do they even care? I don't think so.

Atleast the news channels are publishing the truth about measure 42, or atleast the channels I have watched. And your right, Walter, people with bad credit can't afford to get into wrecks that's why they drive more carefully.
[> [> [> Subject: I did a search for "the study"


Author:
Walter Richards
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 10/ 9/06 10:02am

... and found it was done by a University (Texas, IIRC). But the study itself said there wasn't any noticable difference between using credit rating and using driving history.

So, yes, it can be interpreted that bad credit = bad driving history (or no driving history).

However, it also means insurance companies don't need your credit history. Because they get the same results from looking at your driving history.
[> [> Subject: no credit


Author:
schmart cookie
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 10/10/06 11:18am

do you think bad credit is the same to insurance industry as no credit? some people aren't credit users or get loans because they pay as they go so i'm wondering if they have bad credit?
[> [> [> Subject: Yes ...


Author:
Walter Richards
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 10/11/06 8:00am

Because they get your credit scores from companies like Equifax, no credit may = bad credit.

At least, this is what I was told by a credit union a few years ago. If you've never had a credit card, and never had debt - your credit score can be worse than someone who's always in debt. Why? Because the scoring companies can see that person's debt and payment history ... but they have no means of tracking people who don't have debts.
[> [> [> [> Subject: yet somehow responsible spending/buying eguals poor driving habits?


Author:
melissa
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 10/11/06 10:01pm

explain that to us lars baby!
[> Subject: Lars admits that insurance companies might not have any evidence to support their claims


Author:
Nora
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 10/17/06 12:01am

In regards to ballot measure 42, when Lars Larson was accused of choosing to be a media gadfly rather than doing better research to find the truth in order to help fellow Oregonians -or even his own grandmother on a fixed income- decide how to vote, Lars response was, "you could be right" Furthermore, Larson agreed that insurance companies may not have any substantiating evidence to prove their claims that poor credit and higher claims have any correlation.



The rest of the story:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lars Larson"
To: darjeeling@alumni...
Subject: RE: Form Submission: Northwest Show
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2006 16:54:21 -0700


you could be right



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: darjeeling@alumni...
Sent: Friday, October 06, 2006 4:09 PM
To: Lars Larson; donovan@smar...
Subject: Form Submission: Northwest Show


The following form was filled out at 4:08 PM on 10/6/2006. Click here to view the form.

Your Information:
Nora Symmonds

Your e-mail:
darjeeling@alumni...

Phone Number (optional):
no answer


Comments / Questions
You are using straw man arguments in your stance against measure 42. Insurance companies already are saying "contact us, we can get you substancially lower rate, you can talk to a "liv e agent to explain your life situation," (State Farm, Progressive and Geico, yet they all still use credit scores) so that one doesn't fly. There isn't a single study out there that shows ANY correlation between low credit scores and higher claims. Plus, people with good credit do not pay substancially lower rates than people with average credit scores yet people with low credit scores pay substancially higher rates than people with average credit scores. Insurance companies will not raise the rates of anyone in Oregon if the ballot measure passes (anymore than they can get away with doing on a normal basis), they just won't be charging excessive rates to people with low credit scores or refusing them service. If you really cared about your fellow Oregonians, instead of wanting to be a "radio personality," you'd do the research and let them know this measure is good for them and their pocket book. You'd pretend it was for your grandma and child on a fixed income, living in a part of Oregon without any public transportation and needing to get to work with the cheapest amount of insurance possible. Instead, you pick a hot topic and, like the media gadfly you are, you pick your buzz words and have diarrhea of mouth. Shame on you!

Can we post your comments on LarsLarson.com? Yes
[> [> Subject: Does it matter?


Author:
THartill
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 10/17/06 3:12pm

It doesn't matter to me. A insurance company has the right to set whatever rates they want. If they are screwing someone over, that person can get insurance somewhere else.
If the studies are wrong then there are insurance companies out there that will offer lower rates.
[> [> [> Subject: Insurance companies lying about credit scores to get consumers money


Author:
Carrie
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 10/18/06 1:31am

I guess your attitude is one of the reasons I am soooo for measure 42 and sooooo against insurance companies myself. This really hasn't anything to do with insurance companies charging whatever they want for premiums, it has to do with them doing it based on bogus information or just to squeeze another nickel out of the consumer as an industry and they are acting on this as an industry.

My credit score, after taking a hit for various reasons (signing for kids college loans, having two items not mine -and will take about 90-120 days to take off my report once I prove I wasn't born in 1955 so it couldn't be me for one item and the other I have to prove I never lived in another state- on the report plus land taxes supposed to be paid by mortgage company with escrow weren't so I paid them and it still shows as being unpaid) is a score of 640ish. I want to change insurance companies so have been getting insurance quotes. I received quotes from four companies and all four have sent me notices saying that if my credit score had been higher the premium quoted would have been lower and the one that refused me insurance said that the reason I had been refused insurance was because of my credit score. The quotes are $100 more per month than what I am currently paying and nothing has changed, except my credit score.

From what I understand, 80% of all consumers will have an error on their credit report atleast once in a five year period, which is why you are supposed to check it every year. In the past year we (my husband and I) have received two alerts regarding possible identity theft. Once, from our bank when all of Citibank's system's were violated (and we found out Wauna Fed's info was held/stored by Citibank) and just recently when a credit card we had cancelled 10 years ago informed us that they had not destroyed our information and had just been informed that our information was "misstored" on a series of disks that has just come up "missing" and although they aren't worried about such old disks we should keep an eye on our credit records for the next year!

Yet, these are the people we are supposed to be trusting to give our credit information to the credit scoring companies, who turn around and make errors on our records as well, who in turn hand off the info to the insurance companies to raise premiums accordingly to all of those people who, supposedly, have some sort of correlation between their debt score and how they drive? And notice how the commercials don't say that, they say "studies show people with low debt scores tend to file more claims." There are more people in the United States with a low debt score then there are with a high debt score so obviously more of them will be making claims, but not based on overall percentages.

According to the Insurance Information Institute, an insurance score is a numerical ranking based on a person’s credit history. This is used by ALL insurance companies when rating someone and giving them a quote and it is why rarely will a quote deviate more than a $10 or so per company in a state that allows credit scores to be used. If the quote does deviate more than that, before the final papers are done and money is paid, suddenly the final quote will change. Geico saving you hundreds will not materialize, neither will Progressive's. They can make that claim because it is a national average claim and those states which do not allow insurance based on credit scores can have huge fluctuations in their rates, which insurance companies DO NOT LIKE. They want as much uniformity as possible.

I, too, don't want government always into what they don't need to be but the insurance cos are taking people for a ride here, and it is all of them as an industry. Furthermore, if they are going to use credit scoring for this, then it is another thing that congress needs to take the credit reporting agencies to task for for not doing a better job with evaluating the information they are receiving. They are now much more than just a credit storing service, especially when at least one of them is also a collection agency! If this information is being used in so many aspects of one's life then heavy duty fines need to be levied against companies which misinform the credit reporting agencies, the companies who don't promptly remove information that has been proven wrong and the credit reporting agencies which take 90-120 days to change consumers information. They say days because it looks better then saying 3-4 months -mind you that's AFTER they admit anything needs to be changed! But, change your address and see how quick that gets into your credit report! LOL!

What studies are you speaking of, tryan, that are *wrong*? The only one I know of being done at all is a University of Texas study that has not been dublicated. Pretty shabby "research" and sure as shinola if that was the only "study" done on medicine (such as CoEnzymeQ10) or a procedure that "works wonders" (such as yoga and macrobiotic diets) to prove it "works" insurance companies would HOWL if congress forced them to cover it based on one or two studies.

By the same token, when insurance companies use shabby research to leach money off of consumers, and then use scare tactics to keep it, congress should step in. We are talking about forcing people to turn over their social security numbers (there isn't an insurance company out there that will issue you a policy in Oregon, at this time, w/o your ssn and looking up your insurance score, whichis based on your credit score) and using their private information in order for them to be able to use their cars to drive. The only way out of it is to have enough money to not need insurance.

I think this is one of the times we need a new law.
[> [> [> [> Subject: Market Arbitrage


Author:
THartill
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 10/18/06 12:51pm

If Insurance companies wanted to squeeze nickles why couldn't they just raise their prices across the board?
Seems much simpler.

I believe in Oregon there already is a law that says Insurance companies can't raise rates on current policies based on credit score. That is probably why your insurance quotes are higher elsewhere because they are allowed to use your credit score when you sign up.


On a side note there is also a lively discussion over at NorthCoastOregon.com

Funny that this measure seems to be getting the most discussion...
[> [> [> [> [> Subject: From the horsie mouth


Author:
THartill
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 10/18/06 4:09pm

I just called my car insurance company to get the scoop.

Insurance companies are not required by law to not use credit scores on Insurance on existing policies.

But.

My company (Progressive) said they they, along with other insurance companies, use these factors on your first 6 months:

1. Credit score
2. Marriage Status
3. Type of car
4. Driving record
5. Use of car
6. Miles from work to your house
7. Age

There might have been one other that I can't remember.

Once the 6 months is up they DO NOT use the credit score, only the last 6.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: I think you're missing


Author:
Walter Richards
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 10/19/06 12:28pm

8. Gender


I'm pretty sure all insurance companies use that one.
[> Subject: Rethinking the disparity between the rich and the poor


Author:
Carrie
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 10/30/06 10:50am

The insurance lobbyists' efforts to spin the issue, puting forth that people with lower credit score are more likely to perform at risk behavior resulting in higher claims, is something that should be countered with the truth by our news agencies. It is a fact that poor people use their insurance for the purpose in which it was purchased. For this reason the insurance companies want to know if you are poor and more likely to use the insurance or if you are more economically stable and likely to bite the claim and pay for damages yourself. There is no correlation, according to traffic accident reports and home incident reports (fire, hospital reports, etc.) to correlate that people with poor credit are involved in more incidents (so called risk behavior) than people with good credit. However, statistics indicate that people with good credit will bite the costs for such incidents themselves rather than put these claims through their insurance companies while poorer people do not have the resources to do so. So, insurance companies' ads more accurately should be, "we want to know if your poor enough to actually have to use the insurance we are selling you or rich enough that you only have insurance because we lobbied to make it required to be carried but you pay out of pocket for any damages so your premiums won't go up! Hey, its our business, we should be able to charge what we want based on whatever faulty information system we choose." The credit system is already woefully inadequate in accurately portraying an individual's credit history with a plentitude of examples of refusing to correct credit information or update it in a timely fashion. The passage of this measure will prevent the insurance companies from punishing the poor for using their insurance NOT punish the rich for not using it (as the current ads imply). In support of this argument Consumer Reports agrees that the reason that insurance companies use credit reports in the first place is because the very people who use their insurance for the reason the insurance was purchased can be punished for doing so. “The correlation with fraud is striking,” says Gordon Stewart, president of the Insurance Information Institute. But the Monaghan study, which reviewed those long-standing inferences, says that links between responsible financial management and future expected losses are “unsupported.” Steven Parton, general counsel for the Florida Office of Insurance Regulation, says, “What they’re really looking to see with insurance scores is who is most likely to file a claim, not who will most likely have an accident. If I have the money, I won’t file a claim, because my rates will go up. People of low economic status don’t have that luxury.” Parton adds, “Insurance companies are looking at whether they’re relying on their insurance in case they have an accident, which is what they’re buying insurance for to begin with.”

Reference Consumer Reports article: Caution! The secret score behind your auto insurance
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/personal-finance/car-insurance-8-06/overview/0608_car-insurance_ov.htm
Subject: Port Westward LNG is DEAD!!!!


Author:
Cheryl Messing
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 10/26/06 7:44am

NO LNG VICTORY CELEBRATION

Port Westward is DEAD!!!!

* The LNG terminal at Port Westward, near Clatskanie, proposed by Spiro Vassilopoulos, has lost its financial backers!

* The lease for 145 acres of private, river front property that was forced down the throats of the Thompson Family, has expired!

You are invited to join us for no host dinner and drinks:

Humps Restaurant

Clatskanie, OR
(main street at the light)

Saturday, November 11, 6:00 pm

Honored Guest: Tammy Maygra, SOCR (Save Our Columbia River)

Join us to celebrate a great victory
For the Columbia River

For grassroots organizations and

For the future of clean energy in OR & WA

RSVP: Cheryl 503-458-6910 or ted067@centurytel.net
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