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Subject: sounds of silence


Author:
Zisel ben
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Date Posted: 08:59:20 03/16/01 Fri

indignant towards silence

Anthony, i don't "hear" anything as i am reading. reading your words, that is. i imagine hearing things, i imagine the tone of your voice, i interperate the conjectured sound of your energy into a sphere i can relate to but maybe what i hear in my head is not how you sound in reality, therefore how are you breaking the chain of silence by typing away at your keyboard and throwing the lettered print in front of me? silence is silence as long as you are silent. if your voice cannot be heard in the literal sense than every word you write down is still soundless and will not be heard until you speak them--Outloud.

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[> Subject: Re: sounds of silence


Author:
Anthony
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Date Posted: 10:02:17 03/16/01 Fri

Okay, I think you are being a bit too literal, you know? By silence I meant not doing ANYTHING to communicate with others, written words included. There sometimes is silence in your head if you do not read the words of others. There is the silence of thought. Not the fact that thinking can be a silent process, but the lack of thought in a mind makes a "silent" mind, meaning a COMPLACENT mind, a mind that does nothing to explore the world or possibilities beyond a limited scope. Such a silent mind does not reach out to fellow humans. So in a way my definition of silence also encompasses inactivity. When something lies at rest it can be silent. Moving, acting, can make a sound. See? This is all very pedantic and moot. I am working from a broader definition of silence, I suppose. Words are funny that way, they can have a slightly different meaning to each individual that uses them.

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[> [> Subject: Re: sounds of silence


Author:
Zisel ben
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Date Posted: 10:38:32 03/16/01 Fri

okay so you're saying thoughts are synonymous with action is that correct? so if you "think" about eating, you're actually consuming nutrients and keeping your body in a healthy state? if you "think" about playing an instrument you will eventually build up the dexterity in your hands to become a virtuoso musician? if you think real hard about helping out people/humanity then those thoughts will reach these people and intercept the blows they are recieving?

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: sounds of silence


Author:
Anthony
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Date Posted: 11:30:05 03/16/01 Fri

No. You are thinking in terms of absolutes, and also ascribing rigid interpritation to my words. I didn't say that thought is synonymous with action. I said that people sometimes do not think about acting, or at least that is what I meant to say. It often does not seem to occur to people to act on things. People are told over and over that they cannot change the world, cannot affect the world at all by acting on their beliefs. This kind of pessimisim is rampant in our society especially. This pessimisim is often disguised with the phrase "I'm just being a realist." But I want people to refute that concept! Your actions may not shake the globe and change the world, but they will make an impact for change, however small.

Look, I really don't even see the point of this conversation, frankly. But then again, you have made me view my thoughts from a different perspective. I am not into nitpicking about the interpritation of words. I thought it was understood that I, the author, know that words on page are technically silent unless read aloud by a human voice, but in this case I was being "poetic" by saying that I was using the written word over the Internet to break the silence of inactive minds. Making inactive minds active will hopefully spur people into action both mental and physical. Hopefully these thoughts and actions will cause people to become aware and make others aware that civilization is always in flux and we must embrace change. Otherwise, civilization stagnates. And I believe that silence of mind and voice and inactivity of mind and voice lead to stagnation.

I hope this helps.

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[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: sounds of silence


Author:
Zisel ben
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Date Posted: 15:15:19 03/16/01 Fri

I'm glad I made you view your thoughts from a different perspective, that was my only goal with this conversation and it seems I have accomplished it rather swiftly.

"...using the written word over the Internet to break the silence of inactive minds..."
in response to this though I would like to remind you that people who are reading this page or even just "surfing the net" ARE very obviously being "active" with their minds just by doing that---consuming information is an extremely intense activity, an active choice that they made, so if you are seriously concerned with influencing "inactive" people then maybe you should present your views in a place where the people are really not doing anything at all. A place where reading or moving or speaking in a forward thinking manner are concepts that are completely foreign to them. What I am trying to say is that it is all well and good that you have this page up for discussion among people but that the people who will frequent it are people who are curious, intelligent, self-motivated ones and they aren't the audience that "needs" your words of wisdom to inspire them (although I AM enjoying this conversation) so maybe you should skydive into a desolate third world country somewhere and descend upon the people there who are sitting around in front of their tin shacks with flys buzzing all over them, starving for a glimmer of hope and need direction from a "loud thinker" such as yourself.

I hope this helps.

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[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: sounds of silence


Author:
Anthony
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Date Posted: 06:07:59 03/19/01 Mon

Hey,

Yes, this is a very interesting conversation. I agree that those of us of the "creative minority" (those of us aware of the need to embrace civilization's cyclical, changing nature instead of fearing it) to seek out the inactive minds of the world, or the ignorant or the unlearned. BUT, I think that this site is more than worth it to create, since I can reach others of a similar mindset and remind them that it is up to us, the thinkers, the creative, the active in mind and spirit, to go out and teach people that the world CAN be changed through the will of the people. We can tell them of the need to welcome change and to forget the stagnant ways of the past.

Listen, I don't have the life path needed to plunk myself down in an intellectually-starving nation somewhere in the world and start teaching. BUT maybe my site or similar sites inspire others who will do things like join the Peace Corp and go to nations that need mental and physical nurturing. Who knows?

I understand your point, and it is an interesting one, and I both agree and disagree with your point. You obviously have a good head on your shoulders. Please consider submitting something to the site, something concerning the world or whatever you want, and I will put it on the site. You obviously came here for a reason. Tell me how you found the site and what attracted you to it. Thanks again, and I hope to keep talking to you.

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[> Subject: Re: sounds of silence


Author:
derek
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Date Posted: 13:16:55 03/16/01 Fri

What?

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[> [> Subject: Re: sounds of silence


Author:
Zisel ben
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Date Posted: 15:19:46 03/16/01 Fri

I'm not sure if this is a rhetorical question or not but since I love to humor rhetorical questions I will answer it:

No, I don't want a sound-bite of Anthony's voice.

Why do you ask?

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[> [> Subject: Re: sounds of silence


Author:
derek
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Date Posted: 10:16:04 03/19/01 Mon

No, that was not a rhetorical question, it was an inquiry to the meaning of your seemingly ad-hoc questioning of Anthony's reasons for doing this site. I mean your argument had the validity of "what if c- a- t really spelled dog? You mentioned that he is silent unless his words are spoken and I think this is a point that is so absurd that it warrants questioning why you stated it. for if that was what you were really trying to say, then I would think you are negating every author and thinker that ever lived with out having their voice recorded and played to the masses. As for your apparent sarcasm toward me, that is fine, just try not to argue on points that have no merit, and start asking relevant questions.

And, I am glad that you feel you have won a "victory" over Anthony in getting him to see his views in a different light "so quickly." Yet I feel a remorse that he even conceded any points to you. And the fact that you think those out there searching on the internet do not need to read this stuff because they are out there exploring and looking for answers is just....blah. I mean you give internet users waaaaaay to much credit. If anyone in the world is "locked" into a certain frame of mind (in my experience) it is people who thrive on technological advancement and pratically worship this new medium.

I mean if anyone is more cynical or hell bent on the supremacy of their craft it would be those that I have met in this field. I am just furious at the fact that we as a people, species whatever feel that technolgy is the single mobilizer and answer giver is just disgusting. I feel it can help and that it is a tool, but at the end ofthe day, a computer is a dmb machine that is worthless unless it has a humna running it. I think we all forget that anymore.


look all I really wanted to know was why you questioned soemthing so simple and take it for the literal, mind numbing truth. Have some imagination, think, offer, don't just try question when questioning is not needed.

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[> [> [> Subject: cdaotggtoadc


Author:
Zisel ben
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Date Posted: 21:00:38 03/19/01 Mon

Well, derek,

It seems you have a little too much hostility towards your fellow thinkers when they express views you aren't in complete agreement with or that you don't immediately understand.

A couple of things I would like to clear up...

"As for your apparent sarcasm toward me, that is fine..."

My sarcasm obviously set you off, which is why you felt the need to dive in and spew venom into this discussion.

"I am glad that you feel you have won a "victory" over Anthony"
I don't feel as though I have conquered Anthony's freedom of thought in any manner. Is that even possible? hmmmm...anyway, that is a misconstrued assumption and you are underestimating his intregity by saying that he is "conceding" to me simply because he kept an open mind during our conversation.

Oh and in case you didn't read between the lines yet:
I am not interested in conversing with or pursuing a "victory" over YOU so don't bother inciting discussion with me.

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[> Subject: Re: sounds of silence


Author:
derek
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Date Posted: 13:21:47 03/16/01 Fri

What are you talking about? Do you really want sound bites of his voice?

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[> Subject: Re: sounds of silence


Author:
Snarf
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Date Posted: 13:35:07 03/19/01 Mon

Hi.
I came across your Web site and had to say something.

The argument in this threat is among the most ridiculous argument I've ever heard. All writers break silence in some form or another. They may not do it well, and you might wish that they kept their damn mouths shut by keeping their computers off and their pens down, but it is still speaking. In one of the few intelligent things Stephen King wrote, he acquainted writing to telepathy. Think of it: me (writer right now) and you (reader) aren't in the same place and we're not even in the same time since you're reading, but we're still communicating.

A writer can still speak and be silent in a figurative term. Just pick up something by James Waller or Danielle Steele and you'll see the literary example of speaking while saying nothing.

But I agree with Zisel. This forum is nothing more than a handful of people sitting around in all of their great literary pretension, probably wasting time while they are supposed to be working, thinking that their views are overly important and critical to solving the world's problems. That doesn't mean that it isn't good to sit around in a small group and kick around ideas and argue things, but I think its pretentious to think that millions of people will plop their intellectually starving depraved butts in front of this Web page and transcend themselves into some sort of nirvana. Having such a goal (and seriously believing it) while saying that this is a "those rudimentary pages that you can find floating in Cyberspace, and it isn't that glamorous" is trying to have your cake and it eat to. Its incredibly self-important and arrogant. But don't get me wrong. I like the parlay I see in here and encourage you all to keep it up.

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[> [> Subject: Re: sounds of silence


Author:
Anthony
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Date Posted: 05:45:37 03/20/01 Tue

Snarf, first of all, I agree that this is a ridiculous thread...to a point. Though I thought it was ridiculous I am willing to humor other people's thoughts since, well, since I like to converse with people. Maybe that way their outlandish words will become clear. This way, I hope to learn to expand my personal level of tolerance towards people. I have heard many opinions from many people that claim that the majority of users on the Internet are nothing more than blithering idiots. I would like to stifle that rumor, since I find the opposite to be true. Granted, there ARE those that use the medium as nothing as a place to cause trouble, but that is true of all media that have come before: some have used them to be serious, others to cause mischief. So, in the end, this thread may not be all that absurd. The person that started it was just coming from their personal perspective. That is what talking to people and being tolerant has taught me: that other people aren't just extras in one's life. They are other people with starring roles on this planet, just like me. And we all have to share the stage as best we can, a rowdy bunch of leading men and women. And other people's ideas, while strange sounding they might be at first to me, may become clear.

Now, to address the supposed pretension of this site. I really resent that, and I have had one or two other people like you coming to me claiming that I am pretensious, and I resent it. But there are others coming here for help on papers and to talk and debate and share. I have never stated once here that I believe that my site is some last bastion of intellect on the Internet. I am trying to contact people that like discussing politics, religion, and all the other aspects of civilization and how they have and will (possibly) change. I never said that my efforts or the site would spark earth-shattering global cultural change. I believe in the power of the masses, so what? And I don't think that I can sit here and change the world. I just want to do my small part in keeping people aware of the world around them. That's all. So should I just say forget it and not even bother? Why should we do anything, for that matter? Let's just sit around and not talk. Let's not communicate. Who cares, right?

Listen, I think that YOU are the pretensious one, coming down like from on high to declare me and this site to be pompous. Let me ask you, where did I ever claim that I was some miracle worker with the only path to enlightenment in my hands? I never did. There are multiple ways to "Nirvana", and I don't even think that I know a single one. I just know what sounds profound and pertinent to ME, what sounds like a good philosophy to ME, and just I wanted to share it with others. If others think that my ideas are crap, so be it. They can argue with me and we will have a good debate and maybe expand each other's hoirizons. If others think the same way, then they can talk to me and know that there is someone else out there like them. There you have it again, the use of the Internet to break the silence and to cut down on the loneliness and isolation that thinkers often feel...shit, that PEOPLE in general often feel. So instead of just writing me off as pompous and elitist, why not get to know me better? Why just lay down a judgement? Why not talk to me, using this forum, and break the fucking trend of stereotyping people. The way you so easily criticize me and label me is exactly the kind of narrow minded snap judgement that I am trying to tell others about. That method of thought, IN MY OPINION, leads to intolerance. That is what I believe. So why not talk to me a bit more before branding me? How about not branding people at all, despite what you feel about them? Cause in the end, a person is a lot more inside than the label you tack onto them.

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[> [> Subject: Re: sounds of silence


Author:
derek
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Date Posted: 12:52:59 03/20/01 Tue

Aristotle was against writing, the church hated print, I was not into the whole strap on thing but we all come around eventually. I have faith that snarf and zisel ben will as well. They just don't get it yet, yea thats all, they just don't get it yet.

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: sounds of silence


Author:
no one of consequence
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Date Posted: 21:18:40 03/20/01 Tue

WHAT exactly do snarf and zisel ben not "get"???
This whole "not getting it" shit is so stupid. Do you actually think that you have the authority to judge who "gets it" and who "doesn't get it"?

Obviously YOU are not getting SOMETHING because you feel the need to tell other people that they "just don't get it."

Aristotle? the church? strap ons? Wow. I'm impressed. Is that your back up? Is that supposed to legitimize your ridiculous claims?

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[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: sounds of silence


Author:
derek
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Date Posted: 06:59:55 03/21/01 Wed

You are damn right that I am telling you what you do and do not get, however I am not going to try to explain it again. Think what you will of me, I do not care. Argue you pointless points and I will still sleep at night. I am twice as intelligent as anyone that has yet to write to this site, and I hope that bothers the shit out of all of you. I think it will, you have been arguing constantly about who has the authority to judge and I think me telling you this will really get to you. Fuck you, I am better than you!

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[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: sounds of silence


Author:
no one of consequence
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Date Posted: 08:21:58 03/21/01 Wed

Yeah, your intelligence is overwhelming. I can tell from your brilliant passages like: "Fuck you, I am better than you!"

by the way, your hostility seems to be growing exponentially

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[> Subject: Re: sounds of silence


Author:
Anthony
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Date Posted: 07:14:05 03/23/01 Fri

This is just one of those debates where everyone is right, I think. I find that many arguements come down to that result.

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