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Subject: Judge Not Lest Ye Be Judged Author: Anthony [ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ] Date Posted: 08:24:14 04/02/01 Mon Speaking of religion, I saw a show last night on a militant anti-abortion group called the Army of God. They are a group responsible for the deaths of doctors that perform abortions. Don't they really know their precious scripture? I was raised on a lot of hard-core Baptist dogma (which I have thankfully been able to shake off, unlike some of the brainwashed bastards I saw last night on the idiot box) and if it was up to my old pastors, I would be out there killing in the name of God. But I realized that the Bible itself says that only God is supposed to judge us. Human beings are not supposed to do this, that is why the Bible says things like "Judge not lest ye be judged" and "let he who has no sin cast the first stone." Fanatics like the Army of God have been killing in the name of God forever. They are ignoring their own sin in killing other human beings and claiming to know the will of God. This is another reason why so many people are turing their backs on organized religion, specifically Christianity. I for one don't agree with things like partial birth abortion, but abortion concerning a pinhead-sized fetus is another thing. But these fundamentalists are truly deluded, in my opinion, and are just as if not more guilty of murder than the abortionists they hate so much. [ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]

Replies:

[> Subject: Re: Judge Not Lest Ye Be Judged Author: Bisel Zen [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 08:42:39 04/02/01 Mon Who the hell wants to be an unwanted child? And why would you kill a productive member of society to save one? Abortion freaks piss me the fuck off. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> Subject: Re: Judge Not Lest Ye Be Judged Author: Anthony [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 08:48:57 04/02/01 Mon Can I get an AMEN! Seriously, you should have seen those self-righteous assholes strutting around saying that they were chosen by God to kill abortion doctors. I agree that being an unwanted child is a terrible fate, maybe more than being an aborted fetus! You condemn a child to a life that will be anything but easy. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> Subject: Re: Judge Not Lest Ye Be Judged Author: Bisel Zen [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 10:46:48 04/02/01 Mon I am pro choice for many things in life. Abortion is one of them. I simply think that doctors should fully inform a patient of the risks associated with a uterine scrape before the procedure is performed. But, I don't think that abortions should be illegal. Watch that George Bush, ladies. He'll fry a man for sneezing, but he'll be damned if he'll let a bunch of heathens abort future patriots. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> Subject: Re: Judge Not Lest Ye Be Judged Author: Zisel ben [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 08:56:09 04/02/01 Mon hey Anthony could you be a little less-graphic in your descriptions of the internal state of the womb please? I think most people misunderstand the whole "abortion" issue. The "abortion is murder" and "God would not approve" justification is just a righteous facade that people use to control other people. Did you hear about how the Kosovo women(homeless, poverty stricken, need I say more?) were being raped by the thousands during all the shit over there and the Pope went over there and started preaching to them about pro-life and shit, telling them they have to raise their babies?! Can you believe that?! [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> Subject: Re: Judge Not Lest Ye Be Judged Author: Anthony [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 09:04:55 04/02/01 Mon sorry if I turned your stomach. But anyway, I did hear about what the Pope said to the Kosovo women, and I'm here to tell you that the show last night that I saw on HBO had a segment where a woman, one of the brainwashed, said that if she was raped and got pregnant she would have and raise that baby! Incredible! [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> Subject: Re: Judge Not Lest Ye Be Judged Author: Zisel ben [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 09:07:06 04/02/01 Mon No! I think I am definately going to be sick now. I'm glad I didn't watch that. What is wrong with people? [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> Subject: Re: Judge Not Lest Ye Be Judged Author: Zisel ben [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 09:04:52 04/02/01 Mon Agreed. See, what the idiots don't realize is that those children that are forced into the world unwanted are just going to grow up to be one of those kids who blows away their classmates, it's all related. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> Subject: Re: Judge Not Lest Ye Be Judged Author: Anthony [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 09:08:24 04/02/01 Mon exactly! I was just saying that last night, about how the unwanted children can become twisted by their lives, lives of rejection and sadness, and come back to cause very unchristian trouble later on. One of my friends argued that we could be killing the person that could have cured cancer and such things, and I think he makes a good point. But in the end we can't predict the future, and I think there will be other people that will be able to cure cancer that will be born. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> Subject: Re: Judge Not Lest Ye Be Judged Author: Zisel ben [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 09:16:06 04/02/01 Mon Hmmmm. Yeah, interesting point your friend has but I think it's unlikely that someone who grows up with sadness and rejection is going to feel inclined to come up with a cure for his fellow humans. But like you said, In the end we can't predict the future, Not the pro-lifers nor pro-choicers. So let's bring it back to the original source of conflict(which, incidently is the name of the later...) Freedom to Choose. Let the woman decide what to do when she gets pregnant. If someone feels that strongly about what is going to happen to her child then why don't THEY offer to raise it! Idiots. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Judge Not Lest Ye Be Judged Author: Floppy [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 10:42:37 04/02/01 Mon Hello all. Nice conversation here. So, you really think abortions are a good idea? When do you draw the line then? Up till what month/week/whatever is it acceptable to abort a child? The amazing thing about those precious little sea monkeys that grow inside ladies's wombs is that they resemble people from a very early age. so, where do you draw a line? [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Judge Not Lest Ye Be Judged Author: Zisel ben [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 11:22:46 04/02/01 Mon I, personaly don't like abortion, but that doesn't matter. My personal choice doesn't matter. That fact that I have a personal opinion on that and that I have the right to excercise it is what matters. Again, I think we are straying from the topic: Freedom Of Choice. I want to be able to CHOOSE not to have an abortion. I want to have that freedom. I want to believe that If I am adult enough to be expected to raise my children than I should be able to decide whether I want to have them or not. I don't want someone else telling me I have to have an abortion NOR do I want someone else telling me I can not have an abortion. Just like the previous discussion, we need to elimate the internal disease obviously already present in someone who gets pregnant and is not prepared or willing to raise that child. Use a fucking condom. Or don't have sex. OR ELSE be prepared to deal with your actions. People need to learn how to take responsibility for their actions, that includes Fathers, I might add. If we outlaw abortion (the right to choose) then what are we going to tell rape and other sex-crime victims...."Too bad, deal with it lady." ??? What is going to be said to people in hospitals that are so debilitated that they request death? "Sorry, It's the law, you're required to live here." ??? Freedom to choose is a rapidly fading concept here in America that needs to be revitalized! Just think, if the government wasn't set up the way it is now we wouldn't even be able to be discussing whether or not we believe things should be this way or that. The minute we let someone else dictate out fate is the minute we've lost hope. In case anyway missed the major point I'm trying to make here it is this: I don't believe in killing babies, I just believe that the bigger crime here is that we are being stripped of our own rights. I am trying to look at the bigger picture. Not case by case. The issue is NOT "when is it okay to kill a baby? at what age?" We just can't make it so black and white like whether "abortion" is legal or not. Abortion is simply an extension of the problem already at hand. Lets keep focused here. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> Subject: Re: Judge Not Lest Ye Be Judged Author: icky-icky [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 11:03:08 04/02/01 Mon I find this round of debate very disheartening. There are a number of things in this line of agreeing that I think are overlooked. I will get into them, but I just wanted to point out that pro-life does not have to equal religious right, just as pro-choice does not have to equal extreme fascist left. With that said the first thing I must disagree with is the use of the word idiots to describe someone who is pro-life. There are many, most, if not almost all pro-life people that are not the crazy radicals you would likely see on an HBO special. They are rational, caring people who do not want to suppress a woman's rights as much as they just have a broader vision of what is meant by "alive." Please do not associate all of them with crazy religious zealots or "idiots." Second, you SEEM to hint at the fact that abortion is the solvent to the chunky mix of female problems when you mention rape or incest and abortion. I feel there are some people that do beleive that abortion should be outlawed in any form, but most people I know think that violent conception is a viable reason for abortion. Third, and I will end with this, you both mentioned unwanted children and how they are a burden to society, and proceeded to offer abortion as an end to this. Well, I must ask you this, does the abortion method as a use for birth control really seem moral in your eyes? Can you really look at this, I mean really look at what is happening, and say let people have all the sex they want, and just let the woman get rid of the baby later. It is up to her. Well I am all for equality, vehemently when it comes to this concept for women. However this is what I wonder, what is a more enlightened view: a choice to an action, which could or could not be murder (no one has really made a convincing argument either way), OR responsibility with ones sexual activity? We will never stop the flow of unwanted children anyway, so maybe we should learn to handle their existance. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> Subject: Re: Judge Not Lest Ye Be Judged Author: Floppy [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 11:12:21 04/02/01 Mon Thank you for your response. I know where you're coming from. I, too, feel that abortion should not be a substitute for birth control. Thank you for bringing that up. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> Subject: Re: Judge Not Lest Ye Be Judged Author: icky-icky [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 11:28:54 04/02/01 Mon Yes Floppy. I would rather see responsible choices being made before sex and not after. I wonder why some on the pro choice side do not advocate that as much as they do women's rights. I mean we are suppossed to be encouraging women to think for themselves and not be submissive to what society tells them they should do or think etc. Choose to be extra careful. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Judge Not Lest Ye Be Judged Author: Zisel ben [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 11:34:25 04/02/01 Mon Agreed. But I find it funny how you act like "women" are the ones who need to be "more careful" before getting pregnant. Why don't the men learn to keep their pants on unless THEY plan on having to deal with the DECISION MAKING PROCESS of raising or not raising a child. Oh and thanks for encouraging me to think for myself. Do I have that right? Hmmmmmmmm... [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Judge Not Lest Ye Be Judged Author: icky-icky [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 12:04:51 04/02/01 Mon I am not encouraging anyone to think for themselves, or not think for themselves, just pointing out that it is a societal tendancy to have women become more independent. Also, woman are the ones that get pregnant, it is their body right? So make sure it does not get pregnant! However, my intent was not to make it seem as though protection and planning were soley the woman's responsibility. And as for men being part of the descision process, how ludicrous. Men are not even allowed to have an opinion if that woman decides not to have that baby, that is her choice. Although, I would like to point out that if the woman does not abort, the man is the first one the courts look to for financial support. Sounds like a big double standard to me! [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Judge Not Lest Ye Be Judged Author: Floppy [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 11:50:37 04/02/01 Mon Because, ultimately, the child grows in the female, not the male. So, the female does have more responsibilty. Since it's her body, she needs to take more responsibility. I don't care about the father sticking around, yadda, yadda, yadda. Unless you're an idealist, you need to think "Can I support this child on my own." [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Judge Not Lest Ye Be Judged Author: Zisel ben [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 12:02:19 04/02/01 Mon What kind of crap is this? Ooooohhhh, I see, it's her biological destiny right? Yea, good point. A womens place is making babies. Get a fuckin clue. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Judge Not Lest Ye Be Judged Author: Floppy [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 12:16:42 04/02/01 Mon By the tone of your message, laughability of your response, and quickness to name calling, I would bet that Zisel Ben is actually Derek the Mediocre. Grettings. I have read your past messages, and it seems like you love the name calling. Anyway, my response was to your saying that you: ----Find it funny how you act like "women" are the ones who need to be "more careful" before getting pregnant. Why don't the men learn to keep their pants on unless THEY plan on having to deal with the DECISION MAKING PROCESS of raising or not raising a child.---- Again, maybe it is you simply being idealistic, but I feel that women should be extra careful about becoming pregnant. The thing grows inside of them for nine months. I do not understand how you can argue with that fact. Sure, a noble man stands up and takes his medicine. But, many do not. So, all women should be aware of this, and I am sure that most are. Next time, re-read a post before you run off at the keyboard, ok? I'm sure Anthony would agree with that, as he did in the past. Do not be quick to name-call, and do not matter-of-factly think that other people's opinions are below yours. I have read what you leave. Most of the time, you should not have even bothered. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Judge Not Lest Ye Be Judged Author: Zisel ben [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 12:24:29 04/02/01 Mon LET IT BE KNOWN THAT THIS IS NOT DEREK. I should not have resorted to name-calling. It was immature. I was passionate and upset. But that is my problem. I will stay focused from now on. "Sure, a noble man stands up and takes his medicine. But, many do not. So, all women should be aware of this, and I am sure that most are." WHY are you letting the Men off the hook? I don't understand this line of thinking? This is exactly the line of thinking that is oppressive towards women. I happen to be a woman by the way. Believe it or not. Maybe my opinions are bias because of my own experiences in this world. This world that seems to constantly blame women for "getting pregnant". It takes two to tango. And Idealistic as it might sound BOTH people are responsible. THAT MIGHT BE AN IDEAL BUT WHAT IS WRONG WITH HAVEING IDEALS? Should we lower our standards simply becuase they are not immediately Realistic? Should we just give up on the fight. I am very disheartening to be thinking that that is what you are implying. Let me know if you think I'm wrong. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Judge Not Lest Ye Be Judged Author: Bisel Zen [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 12:36:16 04/02/01 Mon "Sure, a noble man stands up and takes his medicine. But, many do not. So, all women should be aware of this, and I am sure that most are." How is this letting men off the hook at all? What the fuck are you even reading??? What I posted is a fact. There is no denying that fact. Many men skip out. I was in no way "letting men off the hook." I simply stated a fact. You are not disputing that fact. You are simply trying to twist it into something that you are capable of getting emotional over. I never said that men should not be held responsible. What I posted can not be argued over by anyone of intelligence. I guess you do not realize that. Since you claim to be a woman, how can you not realize that you have more of a vested interest in your pregnancy? What is oppressive towards women is the general feeling that men hold a huge amount of the blame. Part of taking responsiblity for one's body includes taking responsibility for one's pregnancy. It is swell if the man sticks around, but ultimately the woman is physically connected to the fetus. And, I never once said that both parties are not responsible. Everything I have stated is irrefutable. The fact that you, a "woman" of all people, are arguing with me over this is ludicrous, and I kindly ask you to check your rampant emotions at the door before you click "send." [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Judge Not Lest Ye Be Judged Author: Floppy [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 12:50:50 04/02/01 Mon Sorry about the cut and paste of your name, Bisel Zen. My bad. Didn't mean to pick up your name. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Judge Not Lest Ye Be Judged Author: Bisel Zen [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 12:56:08 04/02/01 Mon Actually, the good name was stolen from Zisel Ben, and then I swapped some letters. But, no harm, no foul. Anyway, keep up the lively discusion. I've been enjoying it from the cheap seats! [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Judge Not Lest Ye Be Judged Author: Floppy [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 12:38:33 04/02/01 Mon "Sure, a noble man stands up and takes his medicine. But, many do not. So, all women should be aware of this, and I am sure that most are." How is this letting men off the hook at all? What the fuck are you even reading??? What I posted is a fact. There is no denying that fact. Many men skip out. I was in no way "letting men off the hook." I simply stated a fact. You are not disputing that fact. You are simply trying to twist it into something that you are capable of getting emotional over. I never said that men should not be held responsible. What I posted can not be argued over by anyone of intelligence. I guess you do not realize that. Since you claim to be a woman, how can you not realize that you have more of a vested interest in your pregnancy? What is oppressive towards women is the general feeling that men hold a huge amount of the blame. Part of taking responsiblity for one's body includes taking responsibility for one's pregnancy. It is swell if the man sticks around, but ultimately the woman is physically connected to the fetus. And, I never once said that both parties are not responsible. Everything I have stated is irrefutable. The fact that you, a "woman" of all people, are arguing with me over this is ludicrous, and I kindly ask you to check your rampant emotions at the door before you click "send." [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Judge Not Lest Ye Be Judged Author: Zisel ben [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 12:56:08 04/02/01 Mon Bisel Zen or Floppy, I do believe YOU were the first person to resort to name calling by twisting around MY name and calling me a "fuckin idealistic hippie." Just wanted to get that straight. My emotions need to be checked at the door? Is that correct? Oh, I must be getting PMS, right? Yea everything I say is irrational...er..due to the fact that I am a woman that is "too emotional". And what's this about how "since Since you claim to be a woman, how can you not realize that you have more of a vested interest in your pregnancy? " Are you assuming that since I'm a woman I automatically have more vested interest in my pregnancy? That's sounds pretty idealistic if you ask me. Maybe I don't care what the hell grows insida' me. Go get rid of it. Gimmee more sex. Ahhhhahhah!!!! No, seriously. I'm getting sick of this debate. I am trying to keep an open mind but I don't think I am going to change mind on the fact that BOTH parties need to be EQUALLY responsible for a pregnancy occurring. From ejaculation until the ultimate death of the creation of that act. "Sure, a noble man stands up and takes his medicine. But, many do not. So, all women should be aware of this, and I am sure that most are." Being Aware is the first step to CHANGING the reality! Change is a beautiful thing. Let's change the fact that "most men skip out" which, incidently is the reason that so many women feel the need to have abortions... [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Judge Not Lest Ye Be Judged Author: Zisel Ben [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 13:00:32 04/02/01 Mon AHHH!!!!! I knew it would happen! I DID NOT POST THAT!!! THAT WAS FLOPPY!!!! DO NOT DIRECT IT TOWARDS ME!!!! Thanks..... [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Judge Not Lest Ye Be Judged Author: Bisel Zen [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 13:09:15 04/02/01 Mon Whoops. That should have said "Bisel Zen" and NOT "Zisel Ben." I'm sure you all realize that, though. Sorry again. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Judge Not Lest Ye Be Judged Author: Zisel ben [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 13:12:15 04/02/01 Mon Interesting slip... How could you "accidently" post with the wrong name? Why don't you do this: Go get your own name and don't make it a conjugation of mine. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Judge Not Lest Ye Be Judged Author: Floppy [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 13:25:20 04/02/01 Mon I was using the reasonable man distinction. Most women care if they become pregnant, one way or another. If you are a pregnant woman, and do not care one way or another, then that is beyond the realm of the reasonable. Reasonable man distinction. I neve eluded to you having PMS. You are getting overly emotional in this conversation. You are not making much sense in you arguments, and the points you are making are weak at best. You can be emotional if you want, but do not let it cloud your judgement fully. You have never tried to keep an open mind, since you obviously never truly took the time to understand what I have been saying. Both parties should be equally responsible, but if you know anything about biology, you would know that is impossible. Also... ----Let's change the fact that "most men skip out" which, incidently is the reason that so many women feel the need to have abortions...---- You have no way of knowing that "fact," making that an argument from ignorance. By definition, you have no way of winning that argument. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Judge Not Lest Ye Be Judged Author: Bisel Zen [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 13:45:06 04/02/01 Mon I never refered directly to you as a "fucking idealistic hippy." I was kidding around with everyone. You are touchy, though. Especially with this whole thing with Floppy. Though fun to read, Floppy really isn't writing anything that a reasonable person could argue with. Floppy was actually agreeing with you to a point, and you didn't even realize it. I figured you for a reasonable person. I'm believing more and more that you're Derek, also. You write, and flip out, exactly like he did. Just relax, read the posts over better, and realize when something is directed towards you specifically, and when something is directed towards the group. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Judge Not Lest Ye Be Judged Author: Zisel ben [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 12:08:54 04/02/01 Mon Floppy, I just want to congratulate you on being such a fine example of ignorance and for your brilliantly displayed lack of understanding of the big picture. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> Subject: Re: Judge Not Lest Ye Be Judged Author: Anthony [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 12:06:24 04/02/01 Mon When I started this thread, I was very focused on a particular sect of the religious right, the Army of God. I realize that there are some very far right individuals that are caring and good people that would never harm any human life. But I was referring NOT to all religious people or even pro-lifers (since I know that all pro-lifers are not all religious right bible thumpers). I was referring to the pro-lifers that are part of the Army of God. Abortion was not my main topic, but a branch of the never-ending debate. I suppose a more refined question, one that I should have asked and that your responses (all of them are great) have pointed me too, is...wait a minute, I suppose there is no single question stemming from all this. I just wanted to share my horror at the fact that human minds have come to the conclusion that killing an adult human being is preferable to killing an unborn human being. The questions that follow this are seemingly innumerable: How did they come to this conclusion? Through some interpritation of the Bible, by all accounts. But how can a human mind become so entangled in dogma that it can justify taking a human life that has already begun to one that is not yet begun. I can see the endless tangling arguements and questions here. I could go on and on. After all of this rambling, the question I ask is this: What do you, the visitors, think of this Army of God and their actions? But by all means feel free to keep up the straight abortion debate, if you all so choose... [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> Subject: Re: Judge Not Lest Ye Be Judged Author: Zisel ben [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 12:13:05 04/02/01 Mon "I just wanted to share my horror at the fact that human minds have come to the conclusion that killing an adult human being is preferable to killing an unborn human being." Exactly what I was thinking. It's an amazing and strange way of "doing gods will". [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Judge Not Lest Ye Be Judged Author: Floppy [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 12:23:45 04/02/01 Mon ----Exactly what I was thinking. It's an amazing and strange way of "doing gods will."---- Exactly. It is almost like the Old Testament all over again. What are these people thinking? Thankfully most religion is beyond this. But the few that are not...LOOK OUT!!!! Not only are you wrong, but this book and God himself say you should be punished by me hands. Scary scary stuff. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Zisel ben IS NOT DEREK Author: Zisel ben [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 12:32:08 04/02/01 Mon SEE SUBJECT [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Zisel ben IS NOT DEREK Author: Derek [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 12:37:19 04/02/01 Mon what the hell does that mean? [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Zisel ben IS NOT DEREK Author: Zisel ben [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 12:39:01 04/02/01 Mon someone in this Forum thought I was you. No offense. I just want to be myself, is that okay? Jeez. Didn't mean any harm. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Zisel ben IS NOT DEREK Author: derek [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 13:43:25 04/02/01 Mon No, no harm at all! Just was unsure of the situation. Sorry if I seemed mad, inflection is a bitch to pull off in cyberspace. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Judge Not Lest Ye Be Judged Author: Anthony [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 12:34:42 04/02/01 Mon Scary indeed. I consider this another example of how human beings can ruin religion, how they can warp it and make it unappealing. We need to remember that it is the humans using the religion and NOT the religion using the humans here. It is the user and not the tool at fault. And I argue that the Bible itself has been warped by the hands of the power-hungry and self-serving to marginalize everyone from homosexuals to practitioners of other religions. But that's a whole nuther conversation. My point is that we must never lose sight of the human element to this madness. This way we can stop people from losing sight of the spirit. This is my bias coming in to play here, mind you. I see the slander of religion as a very scary thing in and of itself. Religions, all of them, can do us a world of good if we use them in moderation and not blindly...this is all my opinion. So I guess I have something of a personal horrific reaction to militant religious folk. I was almost one of them back in the day. NOW THAT's scary! [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Judge Not Lest Ye Be Judged Author: icky-icky [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 12:26:51 04/02/01 Mon Agreed, I find it hard to beleive that god would want us to take up these actions, and thusly taking away judgement from him/her. Appears we all agree on this subject. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]