Gender "bending" -- Eddie Pedantic Gasbag Discussion Group

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Date Posted: 22:33:33 06/21/01 Thu
Author: gumtree
Subject: Gender "bending"

Read the post below concerning "male" and "female" qualities. Still coagulating on that a bit, but seems to me that there are these qualities to be found in Human Beings in general - and I mean both the positive and negative. Think Ghandi, and then think Mama Borgia. There are good and bad people all over the spectrum - to classify some aspects of human personality as "female" or "male" is inherently sexist. Sorry, ladies.

Amy and I were discussing Glenda Jackson a bit back - and so naturally, Elizabeth I comes up in my mind...definately a female, and characterized in her time as the archetype "Virgin Queen" - but ruled England as her father never could. This was not because she was a woman, a woman acting like a man, or any other permutation - she was Political. No case to be made about "dominant" males in that situation.

In recent history we have Jimmy Carter - a good man, with good intentions, but not "dominant" - and I wouldnt classify him as "femme" either (you don't survive, let alone get promoted, in our fine U.S. Navy being submissive). His problem in ruling was what I call "paralysis through analysis" - and taking on too much all at once.

Another, more complicaed example from history is one of Elizabeth's successors - Charles I. (I can go on and on with this one, so I'll try to make it short)...Charles was brought up to be King. He was a mixed bag, authoritatively, tho - dominant in all the wrong ways (unwilling to compromise, tending to view his own voice as absolute), and submissive in the wrong ways, too (tending to view situations as "fate" rather than something that could be changed). Look where he ended up (not quite in a ditch, covered in petrol, but he lost track of his head...)

ANYways - I really dont think that there are any ways of classifying folk as "female" or "male" personalities - one is brought up in a certain mind/gender set, usually for obvious reasons. Its that annoying human capacity to make decisions that usually messes up the convenient predictable outcome.

Think like you are.

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Replies:

Oooh Gummy I love that period in English history. But my fave was his son, Charles II, lovely man, rule with a sense of humour! I think Jung was talking about how people are brought up to think of them selves as being one gender and everything that doesn't fit into that identity often is repressed and works in the subconcious. But the whole story is that as a person begins to grow in analysis he/she starts to integrate the recognised and the buried parts of his psyche into a whole self. (NT) -- spoot, 22:40:58 06/21/01 Thu
- But I agree with you about the androgeny of our personalities, which I think people often overlook. Still a woman like Glenda Jackson has always had to deal with people slag her as "dykey" and Carter had to suffer from people questioning his "cojones". And people still get cornered by their gender training, women with bulemia, men with drinking to excess or with anger. I think men have it worse than women nowadays, so many of them still are so trapped by that knee jerk macho stuff. Not you Gumtree, you are a rare exception. (NT) -- spoot, 22:59:00 06/21/01 Thu
  - You are too kind, ma'am...I read a book once that preferred to classify folk on the basis of familial position, rather than gender. Older siblings tend to be dominant, while younger siblings are more...cooperative...hehehehe! (NT) -- gumtree, 23:04:45 06/21/01 Thu
    - Yeah and I heard that in the Latin countries they judge whether you are gay or straight not by the sex you are attracted to, but the role that you play, top or bottom. So does that mean that when a man is just lying there letting the woman be on top, then he is gay? (NT) -- spoot, 23:11:21 06/21/01 Thu
      - ...lovely weather we're having.... (NT) -- gumtree (nevermind!), 23:15:52 06/21/01 Thu
        Weather! That's another subject. Here in California we can't even enjoy the hot weather coz of our fear of power outages. Grrrr! (NT) -- spoot, can we put the Bushies in jail, please?, 23:21:36 06/21/01 Thu
        He's too stupid to go to jail - put him on the stand, and he wouldnt know anythink. Now, the VP - thats another kettle... (NT) -- gumtree, 23:26:30 06/21/01 Thu
        I don't think Cheney is human. Maybe he's a replicant. You notice his eyes are glassy and dead. (NT) -- spoot, 23:29:32 06/21/01 Thu
        A true tool of the Corporate State - a replicant! Good answer... (NT) -- gumtree, 23:31:47 06/21/01 Thu
Once I knew a fellah who exercised his repression by being violent with the men to whom he was attracted - not a well man. Its the integration bit that often defeats us - we (humans generally) prefer the familiar, the known. Being different is often painful. (NT) -- gumtree (on the third try...), 22:56:02 06/21/01 Thu
- Yeah that's pretty classic. Like that father in 'American Beauty' What is so awful about being attracted to another fella? Geez the Greeks and the Romans were okay with it and they were pretty maculine. I blame the Church! (NT) -- spoot, 23:03:20 06/21/01 Thu
  - Which one? *G* - Hassidim pray every morning, thanking God that they were "not born a woman".... (NT) -- gumtree (religion - now THEREs a topic...), 23:08:46 06/21/01 Thu
    - Well I thank Buddha every day that I am not a Hassidic! (NT) -- spoot, er just joking, 23:14:00 06/21/01 Thu
      - Thats the thing - religion, humans first attempt to classify everything, make it neat and understandable. (NT) -- gumtree (thanking the Great Turtle for Eggs and Spam...), 23:19:58 06/21/01 Thu
        Ooh what is that, the Eggs and Spam religion? Sounds good to me, I have to admit I love spam. Another guilty pleasure. (NT) -- spoot, 23:24:07 06/21/01 Thu
        Mmm - a FOOD religion, there's a thought... (NT) -- gumtree (gaining poundage already, being a True Believer), 23:33:22 06/21/01 Thu
        Oh yeah, that's a sign that you are going to heaven. Wow, that's a brilliant idea! (NT) -- spoot, 23:35:14 06/21/01 Thu
        Uh-oh, gotta go. that was tres fun Mr. Gum! Let's do it again. And Cro, I must leave, take my seat! (NT) -- spoot, off to a late dinner, kisses to you!, 23:40:16 06/21/01 Thu
        ...and he smote the rock, and out poureth the Holy Chocolates, and it were good... (NT) -- gumtree (cause Old T is full of smoting, and hims doing it), 23:41:41 06/21/01 Thu
As that great Seer Eddie pointed out--a Buddha is one in a state of enlightenment. So I guess you can thank A Buddha, or some Buddha or other , but not The Buddha,like God. And yet ( for a tie-in) the statue is Buddha, representative.And it is the figure of divinity that gorges on biscuits! So there's your food religion.And he's sexless; maybe that's why he gorges. (NT) -- Dorene-Nitpicker.Like that's bad;who wants nits, 02:21:50 06/22/01 Fri
- YOu're right of course Dorene, in Buddhism there is no talk of God. It is a religion without God, heaven, hell, or sin. There is only suffering caused by illusion, and enlightenment. The only god type thing Buddha did was create the dinosaurs. (NT) -- spoot, 04:23:01 06/22/01 Fri
Well said, Gum! So glad you go loquatious over here! I believe that the percived "female" and "male" traits are mostly inflicted upon us by society. Gender roles that are so insipid that few even realize they are learned and not inherent. (NT) -- DoBeeDeux, 20:48:25 06/23/01 Sat
great points gumtree...I often thing if we're stripped of our physical trappings, clothes and even our outer body surface and all we had was a heart and soul and mind to operate and communicate with, would genders still exist or be redefined? (NT) -- BZC, 20:41:12 06/25/01 Mon