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Date Posted: 12:13:40 07/06/01 Fri
Author: Ëåì
Subject: Re: Ïîëÿíè
In reply to: Òðåéòÿê 's message, "Re: Ïîëÿíè" on 19:08:05 07/05/01 Thu

Íå áà÷ó æîäíèõ ïðîòèð³÷. ß âæå ñêàçàâ, ùî åòí³÷íå ïîõîäæåííÿ ìîæå áóòè é ³ðàíî-ñëîâ"ÿíñüêèì, àëå ïëåì"ÿ ãåðìàí³çîâàíèì. Òîáòî òàêèì, ùî ïåðåáðàëî ñîá³ ÷àñòèííî ãåðìàíñüêó ìîâó òà çâè÷à¿. Íàâ³òü ïîíàä Îç³âñüêèì ìîðåì çóñòð³÷àºìî ãåðìàí³çîâàí³ ³ðàíñüê³ ïëåìåíà.

À ÷îãî âîíî ìóñèòü áóòè îáîâ"ÿçêîâî ãåðìàí³çîâàíèì? Ç ÷îãî âèäíî, ùî âîíè ïåðåáðàëè ÷àñòêîâî ìîâó? Äî òîãî æ, ïîëÿíè ç ãîòàìè âîþâàëè.

×îìó òè ïåðåêëàäàºø "àëàíè" ÿê "ñêèòè"? Àäæå â³äîìî, ùî àëàíè òî áóëî îäíå ç ÑÀÐÌÀÒÑÜÊÈÕ ïëåìåí, íàòîì³ñòü ñàðìàòè ñâîãî ÷àñó âîþâàëè ç³ ñêèòàìè é îñòàíí³ âíàñë³äîê ñâ ïîðàçêè âèìóøåí³ áóëè ïîñóíóòè íà ï³âäåíü, ó ϳâí³÷íèé Êðèì, ùå çà ê³ëüêà ñòîë³òü ïåðåä òèì, ÿê âïåðøå çóñòð³÷àºìî çãàäêó ïðî àëàí³â ÿê òàêèõ.

Òà öå áóâ îäèí ³ òîé ñàìèé òóñíÿê. Ñïðîáóé ç íèìè ðîç³áðàòèñÿ. Öå ìîæå áóòè òàê ñàìî, ÿê, íàïðèêëàä, àíòè-ïîëÿíè-äðåâëÿíè-âîëèíÿíè-...ðóñüê³-÷åðêàñè-ëèòâèíè-êîçàêè-ìàëîðîñè-óêðà¿íö³... Ó ãðóçèíñüêèõ äæåðåëàõ, ì³æ ³íøèì, âñ³õ ¿õ - ñêèò³â, ñàðìàò³â, àëàí³â, îñåòèí - êëè÷óòü îäíàêîâî - îâñè(àáî îñè). Òà é ïðèãàäàé ñîá³, ùî Ãåðîäîò âèâîäèâ ñàðìàò³â â³ä ñêèò³â ç àìàçîíêàìè. Âçàãàë³ òàì òèõ ð³çíîìàí³òíèõ ñêèò³â áóëî ñò³ëüêè, ùî ãîëîâà îáåðòîì éäå, òàì ö³ëà êëàñèô³êàö³ÿ, à íå ò³ëüêè öàðñüê³ ñêèòè ç îðà÷àìè.


² ùå, ÿ ÷óâ òðîõè â³äì³ííèé ïåðåêëàä ñëîâà ðîêñàëàíè - "áëèñêó÷³ àëàíè", â³äïîâ³äíî äî ³ðàíñüêî¿ ìîâè. Íàòîì³ñòü Rex º ëàòèíüêèì ñëîâîì.

Ðàäøå ³íäî-ºâðîï.êîð³íü, òîìó ³ ³ðàíñüêå çíà÷åííÿ áëèçüêå äî ëàòèíñüêîãî: áëèñêó÷³, öàðñüê³, ñâ³òë³, ñîíÿ÷í³, âîãíÿí³ ³ íàâ³òü ÷åðâîí³, àáî ðóä³.  çàëåæíîñòè â³ä â³äò³íêà çíà÷åííÿ ìè ìàºìî çîâñ³ì â³äì³ííó ÿê³ñòü: ÷è òî êîë³ð âîëîññÿ ³ øê³ðè, ÷è òî ñîö³àëüíèé ñòàòóñ. Äî ðå÷³, òàêà ö³êàâèíêà: ×îðíå ìîðå íàñïðàâä³ í³ÿêå íå ÷îðíå, à "÷åðìëåíå", òîáòî ÷åðâîíå ó ñó÷àñí³é îðòîãðàô³¿. Àáî æ Ðóñüêå. ßêùî çíà÷åííÿ ñèíîí³ì³÷í³, òî òîä³ "ðóñüêèé" ìຠáóòè ïîâ"ÿçàíèì ÿêîñü ç ÷åðâîíèì êîëüîðîì. Òóò çíîâó òàêè, äèâëÿ÷èñü ùî ï³ä öèì ðîçóì³òè: ÿêùî ïåâíó ñîö³àëüíó ãðóïó, òî òîä³ îçíà÷ຠâëàäó, ÿêùî êîë³ð - òî òîä³ åòí³÷íó ãðóïó ç ðóäèì êîëüîðîì âîëîññÿ. Äî ðå÷³, íåùîäàâíî îãîëîñèëè, ùî äîñë³äèëè ãåí, ÿêèé â³äïîâ³äຠçà ðóäå âîëîññÿ, ³ ç"ÿñóâàëîñÿ, ùî â³í âåäå ñâîº ïîõîäæåííÿ â³ä íåàíäåðòàëüö³â.

Òîáòî òè ìàºø íà óâàç³, ùî òàì ïåðåâàæຠ³ðàíñüêèé òèï ÷è ùî?

"...ïîëÿíå ïðåäñòàâëÿþò ñîáîé íåïîñðåäñòâåííûõ ïîòîìêîâ ÷åðíÿõîâöåâ, êîòîðûå, â ñâîþ î÷åðåäü, îáíàðóæèâàþò àíòðîïîëîãè÷åñêóþ ïðååìñòâåííîñòü ñî ñêèôàìè ëåñíîé ïîëîñû"


Âèõîäèòü ùî ïåðøå òâîº ðå÷åííÿ ñóïåðå÷èòü îñòàííüîìó :)
Òîáòî îñòàííÿ âåðñ³ÿ ïîâí³ñòþ ñïðîñòîâóº é âèêëþ÷ຠïåðøó.

Òà í³, íåìà â ìåíå í³ÿêî¿ âåðñ³¿, ïðîñòî ïèøó âñå ïîñï³ëü ùî çàñêî÷èòü ó ãîëîâó íà ðàõóíîê ïîëÿí:) À â ìåíå â ãîëîâ³ áàãàòî óñÿêîãî ñì³òòÿ. Äî òîãî æ, ÿ òî÷íî íå ïàì"ÿòàþ ïðî êåëüò³â, ìîæëèâî, ïîìèëÿþñÿ. Òî êðàùå ¿õ îáëèøèìî.



Çâè÷àéíî, ùî íåìîëîäèì. Çà íàéìåíøèì ï³äðàõóíêîì â³í íàðàõóâàâ â ÷àñ³ Íåñòîðà âæå 6 ñòîë³òü (ÿêùî çãàäàòè Êèÿ), àëå àðõåîëîã³÷í³ äîñë³äæåííÿ ïîêàçóþòü, ùî òàì ³ ðàí³øå ³ñíóâàëî âåëèêå ñåëèùå. Òîæ ÷îìó á ò³ çåìë³ íå ìîãëè çàñåëþâàòè ïðåäêè ïîëÿí?

Õòî çíà?  ìåíå âðàæåííÿ, ùî ïîëÿíè âñå æ òàêè áóëî íàçâîþ íå åòí³÷íîþ, à ñîö³àëüíîþ, íåäàðåìíî ïîëÿíè ³ñíóâàëè êð³ì Öåíòð.Ïîëüù³ ùå ó Ìîðà⳿ ³ Áîëãàð³¿. Ìîãëî îçíà÷àòè êàñòó âî¿í³â. Íó à ñêëàäàòèñÿ ìîãëî ç áóäü-êîãî, ç äîì³íóâàííÿì ó íàøîìó âèïàäêó ³ðàíñüêîãî åëåìåíòó, ÿêùî ñë³äóâàòè çà àíòðîïîëî㳺þ. Åòí³÷íà ãîìîãåíí³ñòü º çîâñ³ì íå îáîâ"ÿçêîâîþ, ïðîñòî ïëåì³ííèé ñîþç. Îñü, ñêàæ³ìî, íàø³ êîçàêè - õî÷à óêðà¿íñüêèé åëåìåíò ³ äîì³íóâàâ, àëå òàì âñüîãî áóëî ïîòðîõó, à ñàìà òðàäèö³ÿ ïîâ"ÿçóºòüñÿ ç êî÷îâèìè öèâ³ë³çàö³ÿìè, ùî ³ñíóâàëè ïåðåä òèì ó Ïðè÷îðíîìîð"¿. Òóò ïîâèíåí áóòè ãåíåòè÷íèé çâ"ÿçîê ³ ç òèìè æ ñàìèìè ñêèòàìè ³ ñàðìàòàìè. À íàçèâàâñÿ âåñü íàð³ä óêðà¿íñüêèé êîçàöüêèì, çà ³ìåíåì ö³º¿ â³éñüêîâî¿ âåðñòâè. ² íåõàé ñïðîáóþòü ç öèì ðîç³áðàòèñÿ íàùàäêè. Öå âñå äóæå ñêëàäíî - â³äîêðåìèòè åòí³÷íå â³ä ñîö³àëüíîãî, à òî é ïîë³òè÷íîãî, ãåîãðàô³÷íîãî, áà íàâ³òü êîíôåñ³éíîãî.

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