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Date Posted: 18:54:06 05/19/99 Wed
Author: Daniel
Subject: time & foreknowledge
In reply to: Kevin 's message, "Re: A different view" on 14:48:49 05/19/99 Wed

> (Gen 1:1 KJV) In the beginning God created the heaven
> and the earth.
>

Whose beginning? I assume that God did not create himself.

Was there a moment before God created?

I believe that the trinity enjoyed fellowship before creation. Is this possible?

> (1 Cor 2:7 KJV) But we speak the wisdom of God in a
> mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained
> before the world unto our glory:
>

So there was "before the world"?

This is biblical evidence to support the belief that time has always existed. Was is temporal is the space/time relativism.

> Since time was created along with the world (world is
> not limited to earth here, it's usage is all
> encompassing of physical reality), then this verse
> must be relating an event prior to time.
>
> (Titus 1:2 KJV) In hope of eternal life, which God,
> that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
>

Before the world began is meaningless if there was no time prior to the world beginning.

> Same thing. Don't blame me blame Paul.
>

I thank Paul for his wisdom and his eloquence.

> (2 Tim 1:9 KJV) Who hath saved us, and called us with
> an holy calling, not according to our works, but
> according to his own purpose and grace, which was
> given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
>

I assume you believe US is actually on an individual level. The theological background behind election is a very in-depth study. I can provide extensive notes on this issue, but at the risk of being terse, election is not an individual level, but it is corporate.

> Your on a roll Paul.
>
> (Rom 8:28 KJV) And we know that all things work
> together for good to them that love God, to them who
> are the called according to his purpose.
> (Rom 8:29 KJV) For whom he did foreknow, he also did
> predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son,
> that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
> (Rom 8:30 KJV) Moreover whom he did predestinate,
> them he also called: and whom he called, them he also
> justified: and whom he justified, them he also
> glorified.
>

Verse 29b reveals that the process is predestined that the individuals that are called.

> God knows the past, present, and future. Not
> convinced?
>

He remembers the past. God even suggests that he will "remember no more". You most likely believe that God is a prisoner of his omniscience. I believe that God can focus his attention and that he is not bound to know all things. In other words he knows all that is important to his will. He does not "know" what the reflection of my car mirror reflects of the car that passed of the bikes chrome wheel that reflected in the glass of my cup on the dashboard. Could he know? Yes. But this information has no value and does not propogate his will in anyway. In addition, God said that he does not look apon evil. You would force God to look, when he told us specifically that he does not choose to focus on evil.


> (Psa 139:13 KJV) For thou hast possessed my reins:
> thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.

The above verse as well as Jeremiah 1:, are passages that are known as embryological passages. They are often confused with "predestination of individual acts of freewill agents". This is illogical.

If you take a moment to consider that God is the one that created you and the process of "being fruitful", then when you see these passages you understand he speaking about the mothers womb, DNA, and all the major parts of living, such as "birth, life, and death".

> (Psa 139:14 KJV) I will praise thee; for I am
> fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy
> works; and that my soul knoweth right well.

DNA

> (Psa 139:15 KJV) My substance was not hid from thee,
> when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in
> the lowest parts of the earth.

Womb

> (Psa 139:16 KJV) Thine eyes did see my substance, yet
> being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were
> written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as
> yet there was none of them.

1moment after conception (members=body parts)

> (Psa 139:17 KJV) How precious also are thy thoughts
> unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them!
>
> Look at verse 16 again, in the NIV
> (same verse NIV) your eyes saw my unformed body. All
> the days ordained for me were written in your book
> before one of them came to be.
>

Birth, LIFE, and death.

> We are not robots. We have free will, but God
> preknows all the days of our lives before we are born.
>

He preknows, that we will hunger, cry, love, want, hope....etc.

I believe that is essential that we understand exactly how God knows the future. He doesn't. Please read the following illustration:

I wrote to my grandmother last month what my children and I were going to do
today. I told her that I would be taking Keilah and Yachelle in white
summer dresses to the fair in a New shiny Gold Dodge Caravan, and that my
boy daniel would be wearing the same Denver Bronco that I purchased a few
months ago. I told her that we would ride the "Ball of Thunder" first,
then we would go to the "red" ride. Once we finish the day out, I will take
all the kids to have ice cream.

Amazing that tonight after our day at the fair, I can look back at the
letter I wrote to my grandmother over one month ago and amazing everything
happened exactly as I said it would, I even bought the Caravan last
week....Hmmm, I must be prophet. Unfortunately I failed on the last issue regarding
"icecream". This part of the story did not come to pass. Please review the accompanying scriptures:


Jer 18:9-10
9 "And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it,
10 "if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit
(NKJ)

Why didn't I take my children to get icecream?

If I am able to have my will fulfilled, how much more the will of God?


This issue is critical to understanding OEC/YEC. Why? Because many OEC interpretation really on on anthromomorphisms and escoteric revelations to interpret scripture. The YEC claims that the literal is the preferred reading of the text.

You have to make all kinds of claims like the ones below, but you cannot provide scriptural evidence to support your claims. Each of the verses that you have sighted support my claim, and if we get into this topic even deeper, you suddenly find yourself unable to answer simple questions like:

Why didn't the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy come to pass? Failed prophecy? False Prophet?
Why did Jesus say that this generation will not pass away? All passed. Jesus false prophecy?
Why did Jesus say some of you standing here shall not taste death? All died. Another false prophecy?

Your hermeneutic will drive you crazy because it will rely on everything other than what is found in the bible.
>
> Physical reality says time had a beginning. The Bible
> agrees, God is the Creator of time. IF you are still
> unwilling to see what I am saying about time then
> continuing this thread is pointless as it is a minor
> point of disagreement and has nothing to do with
> whether the Bible supports an old earth model.
> Actually, whether you agree or not is irrelevant. The
> original proposition was can the Old Earth Creation
> model be supported Biblically. Yes it can.
>

Look what you wrote above. "If you are still unwilling...." Why am I the one on the ropes?
Your view is a standard set of beliefs held by mainline christianity. It does not matter if the majority sees it your way. If you cannot defend it, then why believe it?

Do you comprehend my point of view, or are you simply discounting it because of dogmatism?

> Now, about praying for the past. As I stated before
> we are limited by time. The past is a done deal and
> can not be changed. This is God's choice. He has
> chosen to deal with mankind in a linear manner. He is
> therefor self limited.
>

What about praying for the future?

Why pray?

or

It was predetermined before the foundation of the world that I would be arguing against the belief that what I am typing was predetermined before the foundation of the world.

> Dealing with unfulfilled prophecy probably has a
> similar solution. God gives a prophetic message
> within time. Outside of time He knows it will not
> occur as foretold. In this respect, we might both be
> correct in a sense. God seems limited by time, but
> since He created it, we must understand that any
> limitation is self imposed. I acknowledge you
> questioning this concept. Your questions are valid.
> The solutions are not always easy. Though I feel
> certain about my position, my lack of a full answer
> shows my own limitations.
>

You have not proven that God created time. Was there a moment before creation?

> One example of what I am trying to say would be to
> consider the way Jesus worked on the earth. Being God
> in the flesh, limited by space and time, He constantly
> prayed to know the will of God - didn't He know His
> own will? apparently not, but it was a self imposed
> limitation. (Phil 2:6-8) Since, prophecy was (is,
> depending on your view of this) given by the Holy
> Spirit to men. Surely God the Spirit knows the will
> of God. Yet the Spirit searches the mind of God and
> still does not know the day and the hour of His
> return. (Mat 24:36) Why? Self imposed limitation?
> But, God the Father is not limited.

We are not talking about the greatest change that God has ever experienced (incarnation), we are talking about the creation and the creator.

Daniel

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