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Date Posted: 16:59:27 08/20/02 Tue
Author: UHC
Subject: Super Technology of Buffy
I was discussing with Phaedra, last night. The wonders of Spike's little super chip. This amazing device which apparently can scan a living being, analyze the the anatomy and physiology, compare it to all known forms of demons ( a listing we have seen take up entire libraries) and classify the living being as either human or not. And then it will also monitor the thoughts and actions of Spike and determine whether the actions have or are going to cause harm to the living being. And then if it is determined Spike is going to cause harm to an individual who is Human, the chip will then administer punishment to spike. It does all these things without any visible sensors, data storage device or powersource. Now I could have understood if they had defined this by saying "its magic" or by using the chip kinda like it was out of Clockwork Orange, where the chip would punish Spike based on when he does soemthing he knows to be evil. This would be believable. But it doesn't. they have showed us time and time again that the Chip can sense when something is a demon. the best example of this is when Spike used the chip to determine if Tara was part demon in the episode Family. Spike had no idea if it were true or not, he was relying completely on the chip. So thus the Chip was supposed to be able to determine if she was human even if medical science might not be able to.
Now your prolly going, but its just a TV show. Yeah I know it is. The problem I have here is that this Super Chip has been used as a plot device beyond belief. It bugs me how they have twisted it and turned it. used it to suit what ever storyline they want to pursue. Now as a very amatuer writer I do understand the need to make your story work. But it bothers me when things are just used as quick fixes.
I can't expect them to go Techno on the show I know. And actually the chip fits in with all the other amazing technology that fits into the Buffyverse (A lifelike robot built by a college student thats capable of fooling her friends, a device that can stop time and reverse it, an inviso ray) So yeah this really does fit into what has happened.
Its just the Engineeer in me wanting to know how things work. But this chip is really only one thing.
BS
I'll let you determine what i want that to stand for.
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BS ... umm ... Big Shmidiots? -- Rachel, 17:27:09 08/20/02 Tue [1]
I've thought of all of that from day 1 with spike's chip. i chose to think of it no longer, cus it was making my brain hurt.
What i didn't get, was how when Dru came back, spike was able to feed, and have it not hurt. so why did it activate again after she left? further questions resulting from Dru were that the ep implied that it was all in his mind. however, if that's the case, then how did the chip activate in the first place? if he didn't know it was there, then it wouldn't have been in his mind.
Thankyou. Thankyou very much for making these questions surface again. i'm not gonna be able to sleep tonight, and it's all your fault! ugggggggghhhhhhhh! I have more questions! Wanna hear them? no? well, i'll stop then. wait. no i won't!!!!!! HA! i've gotta get this out ...
WHY was it a dodgy procedure to get spike's chip out? he's dead already! What's it gonna do to him, really? come on!!! (And a side question - how do vampire "get it up" if you catch my drift?) Oh, gawd, the Britney "pepsi" advert's on! ARRRRGH!!!!! NOW I'm ready for ranting!!!!!!
Why is it Spike with the chip? should there not be other vamps who have it? surely they wouldn't have tried it once, and once they knew it worked, why wouldn't they chip all the vamps they had? WHY???
I'm stopping now. i will ask more questions later! *nods* yup!
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another good question -- UHC, 17:44:33 08/20/02 Tue [1]
I've considered the Spike being the only chipped vamp question. And I do have a belivable excuse for that. Spike was the only one to escape the Initiative's lab, and assuming this was the only place they did this, we can assume all other chipped vamps and demons were killed by the big War Adam put on in the basement of the initiative.
But the one about not being able to get it out is a very good one. But that gets into the anatomy and biology of a vampyr. This being very questionable too. If a vamps heart doesn't pump how does he bleed, and well..... get it up. and if their brain tissue is dead, yeah why can't you just rip the chip out. then on top of that. How do the nerves of a vamp work without blood feeding them. Lots of problems get their. I guess we just have to settle with "because Joss says so"
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*tsk* *tsk* Churchy and his Engineer mind reeling (and I can answer you Rachel) -- Phaedra, 20:22:57 08/20/02 Tue [1]
Well, you know you had my mind reeling last night trying to keep up with you, thinking about this.
I've always just blindly accepted most anything to do with .... er, well ....... um ...... Spike *sheepish grin*. The fact the chip "reads" so quickly is quirky. It's like a scanner, only like you said UHC, without the sensory equipment visible.
What I have a hard time believing, is that the chip is still active!!!! That is what I have a hard time believing. After what, 2 years. He's been through several beatings. I wish they would revisit the chip (although I guess you could say they did when the geeks tested it). *sigh* I would like more of an explanation tho, so that it is not just a convenient quick fix.
Oh, and Rach, Dru killed the couple at the Bronze and presented one of the dead bodies to Spike to feed off of (romantic, huh;-) He didn't kill the human, so no chip ow-ie. :-)
Rach, LMAO regarding the operation ep. You are so right. What was the big deal (although one slip and he would have been a veggie vamp and we wouldn't want that, would we?;-)
As far as getting it up .... Maybe vamps are hard all the time! Ever think of that. Rigor mortis.
(or it's cuz Joss says so)
Also, I agree, why just Spike. And if it is because he was the only vamp to escape, why aren't the Initiative coming to check up on him. Riley knows Hostile 17 is alive. Why haven't they come to pay a call on the only walking around free experiment, watching him, documenting his actions/movements, etc.
Oh, and BS stands for Buffy's Spikey. Just a little pet name.
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Comprehensive Chip Explanation!! -- A.P., 23:32:55 08/20/02 Tue [1]
Maybe it merely prevents Spike from doing something he KNOWS is wrong. With Tara, since he was unsure if she was human, it fired anyway (precautionary). Feeding with Dru, I don't recall, but was the person dead?
The molecular whatever of Buffy, I think, was nothing. Spike really did believe something was wrong with Buffy when she came back.. his personal beliefs about magic would have him thinking she is not 'natural.' Hence, he can beat the snot out of Buffy without the chip firing; if it is in his brain, it makes sense to be triggered based on a perception. In fact, since we can stimulate certain parts of the brain and get a biological response, this seems not only plausible but theoretically POSSIBLE -- catch being, it'd have to be in live brain tissue. Put a chip in, measure activity in one of the brain's areas, analyze it, etc: you would look for a pattern that, perhaps, is something meaning I AM ABOUT TO DO VIOLENT PHYSICAL HARM THAT I KNOW IS WRONG. There should be chemical changes, etc.
Being a vamp, however, throws a monkey wrench into all that -- we don't know their brainiology. :) The theory goes "the demon gets your body but it doesn't get your soul" and the demon is tainted by the person, meaning a lot of the residual brain structure is intact, infecting the demon. So -- if a vamp is a demon in a human's body that explains two more things: one, why they have to be careful in the brain. Perhaps the demon controls the motor functions via the brain and nervous system, which are "dead" but still electrical conduits and thus how they channel the energy. This is a Ghost in the Machine but unless you took college Philosophy, you can ignore that one flaw in the theory :) The other thing is how Little Spikey gets up to do 'battle' -- same deal -- the demon controls the body.
And there you have it !! :)
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A.P. - sorry, didn't see your response, before I posted mine...we are thinking on the same lines. -- Lijdrec....;-.), 23:57:05 08/20/02 Tue [1]
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It's all clearer to me now!! -- Phae, 10:48:16 08/21/02 Wed [1]
:-P
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Church, you're forgetting the engineer's KISS principle.... -- Lijdrec, 23:54:36 08/20/02 Tue [1]
Your analysis and that of most people on the Boards is too complex. It simply does not follow the 'Keep It Simple, Stupid' principle. All of the speculation about the chip somehow reading external life forms and differentiating between Human and Demon is just too complex a procedure to give to it.
Remember that the Initiative was originally headed by Maggie Walsh, a specialist in Human Behavior - Psychology. Vampires are afterall a mongrel, a Human/Demon Mix. The chip therefore would be designed by a Human Behavioralist to work based upon a human brain response initiated by the enhanced senses of the Demon.
I think of it as working something like this......
First off all, the Vampire's primary food source is terrestrial, mortal blood, whether it be Human or another mortal life form. The Human senses are amplified by the Demon. A Vampire is said to be able to smell, hot, live blood coursing through a beings veins and to be able to determine the species that it is sensing. Since only terrestiral, mortal blood is the primary food source of the Vampire, there must be a specific eletro-chemical response to that food source that the chip then reads in the brain of the Vampire. This would be how the chip would be said to be able to differentiate between Human and Demon. In fact, the chip only manages to recognize one specific response within the Vampire itself to an external stimulus caused by its prey.
Now what happens next, is where I think the logic gets a bit fuzzy (mmmmm....... fuzzy logic, any ideas there?). The chip must now read an intent or perhaps more correctly the electro-chemical responses of the brain that result in an overt act of agression that is in response to the earlier feeding stimuli. Once read the chip - FIRES!
Now the incident on the catwalk with Drusilla where Spike fed on her fresh kill indicates that this second 'reading' of the chip may be very specific. There may have been no 'intent' or no overt agressive act, the electro-chemical trigger that the chip was meant to read my not have occurred.
Which brings me to Buffy. I hate the idea that she "came back wrong". I have always considered that the change that allowed Spike to hit Buffy happened in Spike (and I truly may be out in left field here, but the 'deep molecular tan theory is illogical to say the least). It would involve one of the two sensor reads that I hypothesize the chip performs. In Buffy's case I think that it is the first read, seeing her as a food source that I would like to believe has been stopped. That response in the Vampire would necessarily be an automatic response, instinctual, something that the Vampire would not normally think consciously about. And I think that it may also have been a sub-conscious impulse on the part of the Demon to extiguish that response in Buffy's case. Why? You won't like it Church, the Demon no longer saw Buffy as food, as an adversary, it was a certain kind of 'love'.
So what would such a theory have upon a Souled Spike in Season 7? Ahhh..... very interesting, indeed! The chip still works, but it doesn't appear too in many cases! Why? The Demon is no longer in control, the same response that may have been 'turned-off' by the Demon and allowed Spike to hurt Buffy, may be extinguished by the a Souled Spike. Thus if there is no automatic sensing of a mortal being as a food source the chip will not be triggered. Angel himself is the example for this. He no longer tends to look upon the Humanity as food sources. Angel only came to consider Connor as a food source, to sense his blood, only after being clandestinely fed his son's blood.
So in Season 7, Spike may be able to hurt anybody, should his Souled Self so choose. As long as he does think about eating beforehand!
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Correction: So in Season 7, ......... As long as he does *NOT* think about eating beforehand! -- Lijdrec, 00:06:50 08/21/02 Wed [1]
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All Riiigghhtt!!!! A Lijdrec, in-depth discourse on Spike ..... I love it!!! -- Phaedra, 06:49:55 08/21/02 Wed [1]
This is great Lynn!! You did keep it simple. Human = food source. Hmmm. I'm going to have to look back at some S6 tapes. When the chip goes off. I don't think very often. So, this theory is as plausible as any other! :-)
Ok, I'll head out to left field with you. I never bought the "coming back wrong" answer either. It was so lame. And after all the build-up of what Buffy could be, or is the chip no longer working. It was another anti-climatic piece of the S6 puzzle. (You take your glove tho, I hate playing left field .... I'm more of a right field girl ;-)
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Dinner Bell!!!!!!!!! -- UHC, 17:46:21 08/21/02 Wed [1]
Ok you made other points in your argument but I'll take this one first.
Here is what I understood you to say. The Chip responds to the chemical reaction that occurs in the brain when Spike gets ready to eat. Kinda like how we get hungry and out stomach's growl when we smell something cooking. Only that it works one step farther and is only activated when Spike's vampyric instincts kick in and he goes to pounce. If you want to get technical I would say that the chip activates based on a combination of 2 separate things happening. First the hunger responce and then the signal that goes from the brain to his muscles that says "Bite/Hit/Kick/Kill" And when the 2 are combined we get ZAAAAAAP. Am I correct in this so far?
I will wait for your response.
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Well....... I wasn't being rigorous on the spur of the moment.... -- Lijdrec, 18:01:02 08/21/02 Wed [1]
If you want to get technical I would say that the chip activates based on a combination of 2 separate things happening. First the hunger responce and then the signal that goes from the brain to his muscles that says "Bite/Hit/Kick/Kill" And when the 2 are combined we get ZAAAAAAP.
Uh.... I think that is exactly what I said, a two parter.
I think the sensing that is being read by the chip first is related to the hunting/prey sense of the Vampire. This does not have to be a conscious effort on the part of the Vampire. Thus Spike did not use his senses to confirm Tara's humanity, but used the outward effect of the chip to prove it. In fact this step is probably always ongoing sub-consciously in the Vampire; ie. the Vampire may not be consciously hunting for prey for this brain activity to be occurring. It is probably an innate instinctual response that the chip is using.
Then there is the second read...
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1 point for Liddy -- UHC, 18:10:51 08/21/02 Wed [1]
I concede the Tara issue. And this is something I hadn't considered, however. I have other problems along the way.
In "Yoko Factor" back in season 4, we have Spike being zapped for pointing a gun at Xander. I'll let you go ahead and attack that and see whats left.
Then in Weight of the World. Spike is annoyed with Xander. And he knows he is going to get Zapped but he goes to hit him. Now the problem here is I know Spike had no food thoughts going on here. He simply wanted to inflict pain (even though it was only a small amount) But it throws the whole dinnerbell part off to me.
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1 point for Liddy and add 2 more!?!? -- Lijdrec, 18:51:36 08/21/02 Wed [1]
In "Yoko Factor" back in season 4, we have Spike being zapped for pointing a gun at Xander.
So? Sorry I don't see the problem with my theory!
Then in Weight of the World. Spike is annoyed with Xander. And he knows he is going to get Zapped but he goes to hit him. Now the problem here is I know Spike had no food thoughts going on here.
You seem to have missed my point, Church.....
The Vampire need not be consciously looking for food.
The first step is probably always ongoing sub-consciously in the Vampire; ie. the Vampire may not be consciously hunting for prey for this brain activity to be occurring. It is probably an innate, instinctual food/prey response that the chip is using. I believe that the Vampiric Demon inhabits the R-complex, Reptilian portion of human brain. There it finds similar human behaviors to that of its own. The rudimentary functions of that portion of the human brain include:
basic life support systems, reflex responses, basic physiological functions, primary motor functions, instinctive or genetically-programmed behaviors, primitive sensations, aggression, territoriality, dominance, and the reproductive behaviors.
The Vampire may be using the human instinctive or genetically-programmed behaviors and it would be those behaviors/senses that the chip would be reading concerning a food source.
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K I will go along with your theory for now -- UHC, 19:11:29 08/21/02 Wed [1]
hehe and no Phaedra he didn't get me because he used big words. I still have some qualms with some of the scenes. But I'm willing to accept your explanation. Mostly because I'm not against it. However I do wonder if the writers actually put as much into thinking this through as we did or if they just did the whole "What If" game.
So my next question. As Spike gows as a demon with a soul. Does that mean he will overcome the urge to eat period and thus defeat the chip that way? Or is it only that way with Buffy?
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Wore you down did I.?.! - Claiming victory in this battle then. Huzzah! Huzzah! Huzzah! -- Lijdrec....;-), 20:49:05 08/21/02 Wed [1]
So my next question. As Spike gows as a demon with a soul. Does that mean he will overcome the urge to eat period and thus defeat the chip that way? Or is it only that way with Buffy?
To Reiterate: If the Demon is no longer in control, the same response that may have been 'turned-off' by the Demon and allowed Spike to hurt Buffy, may be extinguished by the a Souled Spike. Thus if there is no automatic sensing of a mortal being as a food source the chip will not be triggered. Angel himself is the example for this. He no longer tends to look upon the Humanity as food sources. Angel only came to consider Connor as a food source, to sense his blood, only after being clandestinely fed his son's blood.
I think that with Spike this may develop over Season 7. But then again you cannot be sure. I think the writers, even JW, do not know how the chip works. The only write that it does! Or doesn't, and then try to explain it, they've done a piss-poor Sci-Fi job of that (ie. Buffy's deep molecular tan, but maybe they were lying?)!
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bravo, bravo!!! I'm going to give you both points for providing much entertainment!! -- Phaedra ...... :-), 21:19:45 08/21/02 Wed [1]
Keep it up! :)
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