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Date Posted: 07:19:25 01/17/03 Fri
Author: tamarisk
Subject: Sola
In reply to: ekklesia 's message, "Dake Heirs Are As Selectively Blind & Intellectually Bankrupt as Rt. Rev FOWLER, Inc" on 20:19:28 01/16/03 Thu

I believe the great majority of Cloud's position and practice are sound. However, there are two areas which I differ from his opinions. One is his position on the 501 c 3 corporate church. I remember his comments after my good friend, Dr. Greg Dixon, was carried out of the Indianapolis Baptist Temple on a stretcher, on the 6pm news one night. The IBT as become stronger since they've become a house based church. It is still a strong voice for the unregistered church and sending out missionaries, world-wide.

Here is another item of note concerning Cloud. I received this in an email a few daze ago.

Disrupting -Erroneous and Opinionated Reporting--AGAIN

Folks
The statements made below are just ONE reason I no longer attend the Baptist churches of any kind.

WINE IN THE BIBLE AND TODAY. Friday Church News Notes, January 10, 2003
(David W. Cloud, Fundamental Baptist Information Service, P.O. Box 610368,
Port Huron, MI 48061-0368, fbns@wayoflife.org) - The following quotes by
Norman Geisler and Robert Stein are from the Focus in Missions, September
1986: "Many wine-drinking Christians today mistakenly assume that what the
New Testament meant by wine is identical to wine used today. This, however,
is false. In fact, today's wine is by biblical definition strong drink, and
hence is forbidden in the Bible. What the Bible frequently meant by wine
was basically purified water. ... Therefore, Christians ought not to drink
wine, beer or other alcoholic beverages for they are actually strong drink
and are forbidden in Scripture. Even ancient pagans did not drink what some
Christians drink today" (Geisler). "�to consume the amount of alcohol that
is in two martinis today, by drinking wine containing three parts water to
one part wine (the biblical ratio) a person would have to drink over
twenty-two glasses" (Stein).

[Editor] Where in the King James Bible, THE Bible of Fundamental Baptist Churches, can one find WINE described as "basically purified water". WHERE, in the Word of God, can one find WINE meaning a biblical ratio of three parts water to one part wine.

Any of you "legalists" out there that agree with Mr. Cloud, please show me chapter and verse "in context" and I will repent of writing this opposing letter.

Folks, it's a shame when one has an opinionated/dogmatic/ unscrupulous/deceitful/untruthful OPINION; and it HAS to be only an opinion, because a messenger of God KNOWS better; that one has to resort to FALSE TEACHINGS to "make his point". How can one then disassociate oneself from the other false teachers, and how can his readers discern the difference?

How can one that teaches falsehoods, oppose and expose others that teach falsehoods, but from a diverse perspective.

I believe David Cloud is a "brother in the Lord", but I cannot put much stock/certainty in his teachings because of his "Denominational Baptist Beliefs". This is not the first time I had to oppose his teachings. Please read my article "The Truth about Tithing - Giving in Grace; A New Testament Perspective (Part 1)" on my web site.

In that article David Cloud said about tithing; "Graceless believers in grace need to have the 'Law' put on them!"
I said in that article that, "If we do not obey from the 'heart', but by 'law', we are still lost in our sins. Does Cloud want to put 'grace givers' back under the Law so as to condemn us to hell?"

Don't preachers think we will search the scriptures to see if what they say (imply) is true?
THINK ABOUT THIS.
*****************************************************
CHRISTIANS & DRINKING WINE

Jesus turned water into "wine" NOT "grape juice" at the wedding feast.

The Greek word oinos (oy'-nos) is used for the word wine in John two. This is wine, a mild fermented drink.

The same word, oinos, is used for the word wine in the following verses.

Eph 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

If we drink too much, or excessive wine we will get drunk.

1 Tim 3:2-3 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;

A bishop, or pastor or overseer must not be known as a wine lover. No wine around the house "all the time" lest he suffer reproach. (1 Tim 3:7)

1 Tim 3:8 Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;

A deacon, can have some wine, but not in excess.

If these verses speak of grape juice like the non-drinking advocates do, WHY is not a bishop, or pastor or overseer not to drink ANY GRAPE JUICE

1 Pet 4:3 For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:

Eph 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

You see, it is not DRINKING that is wrong, it is EXCESSIVE DRINKING. We are not forbidden to drink fermented beverages, we are forbidden to drink in excess.

1 Tim 5:23 Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.

Wine, that is a fermented drink, can have medicinal benefits also.

Mark 2:22 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles: else the new wine doth burst the bottles, and the wine is spilled, and the bottles will be marred: but new wine must be put into new bottles.

As the grape juice ferments it emits gases which will stretch a new bottle made of new skin. Old skin hardens and does not stretch and will burst when new wine that is still fermenting is put into it.

Rom 14:2-3 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs. Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.

Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

Rom 14:21-23 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak. Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth. And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

If you believe drinking fermented beverages is a sin, to you it is a sin, but if I can drink in moderation and not in excess and with a clear conscience, to me it is not a sin.
******************************************************
I was a drunk but haven't had a drink since Oct 21 1981, but I still do not have anything against a moderate drink every now and then, and the IMPORTANT matter is that NEITHER DOES CHRIST

Over doing ANYTHING-eating, drinking, dressing flagrantly, "over-use" of makeup, ect is a SIN.

Mark 7:18-23 And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him; Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats? And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man. For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

Moderation in drinking does not come from within. LUST-the act of OVER-ANYTHING comes from within.

The word "wine" in all these scriptures is the Greek word "oinos" (oy'-nos);.

Eph 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

This tells us dot to drink IN EXCESS.

1 Tim 3:8 Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;

This tells is the SAME THING. Not to drink MUCH (an excessive amount) wine.

1 Tim 5:23 Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.

This tells us the SAME THING. A LITTE wine.

Titus 2:3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;

AGAIN-the SAME THING

1 Pet 4:3 For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:

AND AGAIN.
Is Paul saying that the Christian can sin a LITTLE by drinking a LITTLE WINE?

Making Enemies by Contending for the Faith ONCE Delivered to the Saints-as usual.

Andy

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I believe Andy is correct in this matter of drinking. You certainly do not sin by not drinking. You only sin by excess drinking. It is that "holy roller" mentality stating, "I don't drink and I don't chew, and I don't go with girls that do."

There are matters which are between you and G_d.

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Replies:

Tamarisk -- Sola Scriptura, 17:54:15 01/17/03 Fri