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Welcome to the Christian Theology Discussion Group where committed believers in the historic Christian faith meet to discuss matters of salvation and issues confronting the Church today.
Connie Asks "Is Iraq Mystery Babylon" -- Sola Scriptura and Respected Fundamentalists say "NO!", 22:33:49 12/06/02 Fri

A City on Seven Hills
By Dave Hunt

[The following is chapter 6 of A Woman Rides the Beast: The Roman Catholic Church and the Last Days, copyright 1994 by Dave Hunt, Harvest House Publishers, Eugene, Oregon 97402; used by permission of the author; order from The Berean Call, P.O. Box 7019, Bend, OR 97708. $10 + $2 S/H.]

"The woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth. ... Here is the mind which hath wisdom: The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sitteth" (Revelation 17:18,9).

A woman rides the beast, and that woman is a city built on seven hills that reigns over the kings of the earth! Was ever in all of history such a statement made? John immediately equates the readers' acceptance of this revelation with "wisdom." We dare not pass over such a disclosure casually. It merits our careful and prayerful attention.

Here is no mystical or allegorical language but an unambiguous statement in plain words: "The woman...is that great city. There is no justification for seeking some other hidden meaning. Yet books have been written and sermons preached insisting that "Mystery Babylon" is the United States. That is clearly not the case, for the United States as Sodom, considering the honor now given to homosexuals, but it is definitely not the Babylon that John sees in this vision. The woman is a city.

Furthermore, she is a city built on seven hills. That specification eliminates ancient Babylon. Only one city has for more than 2000 years been known as the city on seven hills. That city is Rome. The Catholic Encyclopedia states: "It is within the city of Rome, called the city of seven hills, that the entire area of Vatican State proper is now confined" (The Catholic Encyclopedia, Thomas Nelson, 1976, s.v. "Rome").

There are, of course, other cities, such as Rio de Janeiro, that were also built on seven hills. Therefore, John provides at least more characteristics to limit the identification to Rome alone. We will examine each one in detail in subsequent chapters. However, as a preview of where we are going, we will limit them now and discuss each one briefly. As we shall see, there is only one city on the earth which, in both historical and contemporary perspectives, passes every test John gives, including its identification as Mystery Babylon. That city is Rome, and more specifically, Vatican City.

Even Catholic apologist Karl Keating admits that Rome has long been known as Babylon. Keating claims that Peter's statement "The church here in Babylon ... sends you her greeting" (from 1 Peter 5:13) proves that Peter was writing from Rome. He explains further:

"Babylon is a code word for Rome. It is used that way six times in the last book of the Bible [four of the six are in chapters 17 and 18] and in extrabiblical works such as Syblling Oracles (5, 159f.), and Apocalypse of Baruch (ii, 1), and 4 Esdras (3:1).

"Eusebius Pamphilius, writing about 303, noted that `it is said that Peter's first epistle ... was composed at Rome itself; and that he himself indicates this, referring to the city figuratively as Babylon" (Karl Keating, Catholicism and Fundamentalism: The Attack on "Romanism" by "Bible Christians," Kgnatius Press, 1988, p. 200).

As for "Mystery," that name imprinted on the woman's forehead is the perfect designation for Vatican City. Mystery is at the very heart of Roman Catholicism, for the words "Mysterium Fidev pronounced at the alleged transformation of the bread and wine into the literal body and blood of Christ to the enigmatic apparitions of Mary around the world. Every sacrament, from baptism to extreme unction, manifests the mysterious power which the faithful must believe the priests wield, but for which there is no visible evidence. Rome's new Catechism explains that liturgy "aims to initiate souls into the mystery of Christ (It is 'mystagogy.')" and that all of the Church's liturgy is "mystery" (Catechism of the Catholic Church, The Wanderer Press, 1994, para. 1075).

WHO IS THE WHORE?

The first thing we are told about the woman is that she is a "whore" (Revelation 17:1), that earthly kings "have committed fornication" with her (verse 2) , and that "all the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication" (verse 3). Why would a city be called a whore and be accused of having committed fornication with kings? Such an indictment would never be made of London or Moscow or Paris--or any other ordinary city. It wouldn't make sense.

Fornication and adultery are used in the Bible in both the physical and the spiritual sense. Of Jerusalem God said, "How is the faithful city become a harlot!" (Isaiah 1:21). Israel, whom God had set apart from all other peoples to be holy for His purposes, had entered into unholy, adulterous alliances with the idols-worshiping nations about her. She had "committed adultery with stones and with stocks [idols] (Jeremiah 3:9); "and with their idols have they committed adultery" (Ezekiel 23:37). the entire chapter of Ezekiel 16 explains Israel's spiritual adultery in detail, both with heathen nations and with their false gods, as do many other passages.

There is no way that a city could engage in literal, fleshly fornication. Thus we can only conclude that John, like the prophets in the Old Testament, is using the term in its spiritual sense. The city, therefore, must claim a spiritual relationship with God. Otherwise such an allegation would be meaningless.

Though it is built on seven hills, there would be no reason to accuse Rio de Janeiro of spiritual fornication. It makes no claim of having a special relationship with God. And though Jerusalem has that relationship, it cannot be the woman riding on the beast, for it is not built on seven hills. Nor does it meet the other criteria by which this woman is to be identified.

Against only one other city in history could a charge of fornication be leveled. That city is Rome, and more specifically Vatican City. She claims to have been the worldwide headquarters of Christianity since its beginning and maintains that claim to this day. Her pope enthroned in Rome claims to be the exclusive representative of God, the vicar of Christ. Rome is the headquarters of the Roman Catholic Church, and in that too she is unique.

Numerous churches, of course, are headquartered in cities, but only one city is the headquarters of a church. The Mormon Church, for example, is headquartered in Salt Lake City, but there is much more to Salt Lake City than the Mormon Church. No so with Vatican City. It is the heartbeat of the Roman Catholic Church and nothing else. She is a spiritual entity that could very well be accused of spiritual fornication if she did not remain true to Christ.

IN BED WITH THE RULERS

Not only does Rome's pope call himself the vicar of Christ, but the Church he heads claims to be the one true Church and the bride of Christ. Christ's bride, whose hope is to join her Bridegroom in heaven, is to have no earthly ambitions. Yet the Vatican is obsessed with earthly enterprise, as history proves; and in furtherance of these goals it has been, exactly as John foresaw in his vision, engaged in adulterous relationships with the kings of the earth. That fact is acknowledge even by Catholic historians.

Christ said to His disciples, "If ye were of the world, the world would love his own; but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you" (John 15:19). The Catholic Church, however, is very much of this world. Her popes have built an unrivaled worldwide empire of property, wealth, and influence. Nor is empire-building an abandoned feature of the past. We have already seen the Vatican II clearly states that the Roman Catholic Church today still ceaselessly seeks to bring under its control all mankind and all their goods.

Popes have long claimed dominion over the world and its peoples. Pope Gregory XI's papal bull or 1372 (In Coena Domini) claimed papal dominion over the entire Christian world, secular and religious, and excommunicated all who failed to obey the popes and to pay them taxes. In Coena was confirmed by subsequent popes and in 1568 Pope Pius V swore that it was to remain an eternal law.

Pope Alexander VI (1492-1503) claimed that all undiscovered lands belonged to the Roman Pontiff, for him to dispose of as he pleased in the name of Christ as His vicar. King John II of Portugal was convinced that in his Bull Romanus Pontifex the pope had granted all that Columbus discovered exclusively to him and his country. Ferdinand and Isabel of Spain, however, thought the pope had given the same lands to them. In May 1493 the Spanish- born Alexander VI issued three bulls to settle the dispute.

In the name of Christ, who had no place on this earth that He called his own, this incredibly evil Borgia pope, claiming to own the world, drew a north-south line down the global map of that day, giving everything on the east to Portugal and on the west to Spain. Thus papal grant, "out of the plenitude of apostolic power," Africa went to Portugal and to the America to Spain. When Portugal "succeeded in reaching India and Malaya, they secured the confirmation of these discoveries from the Papacy..." There was a condition, of course: "to the intent to bring the inhabitants...to profess the Catholic Faith" (Sidney Z. Ehler, John B. Morrall, trans. and eds., Church and State Through the Centuries, London, 1954, pp. 153-59; Hakluytus Posthumus, William Stansby for Henrie Fetherstone, London, 1625, as cited in Avro Manhattan, The Vatican Billions, Chino, CA, 1983, p. 90).

It was largely Central and South America which, as a consequence of this unholy alliance between church and state, had Roman Catholicism forced upon them by the sword and remain Catholic to this day. North America (with the exception of Quebec and Louisiana) was spared the dominance of the Roman Catholicism because it was settled largely by Protestants.

Nor have the descendants of Aztecs, Incas, and Mayas forgotten that Roman Catholic priests, backed by the secular sword, gave their ancestors the choice of conversion (which often meant slavery) or death. They made such an outcry when John Paul II in a recent visit to Latin America proposed elevating Junipero Serra (a major eighteenth-century enforcer of Catholicism among the Indians) to sainthood that the pope was forced to hold the ceremony in secret.

Christ said, "My kingdom is not of this world; otherwise my servants would fight." The popes, however, have fought with armies and navies in the name of Christ to build a huge kingdom which is very much of this world. And to amass their earthly empire they have repeatedly engaged in spiritual fornication with emperors, kings, and princes. Claiming to be the bride of Christ, the Roman Catholic Church has been in bed with godless rulers down through history, and these adulterous relationships continue to this day.

This spiritual fornication will be documented in detail later.

ROME EQUALS VATICAN

Some may object that it is Rome, and not that small part of it known as Vatican City, which is built on seven hills, and that the Vatican can hardly be called a "great city," Though both objections are true, the words "Vatican" and "Rome" are universally used interchangeably. Just as one would refer to Washington and mean the government that runs the United States, so one refers to Rome and means the hierarchy that rules the Roman Catholic Church.

Take for example a placard carried by a demonstrator outside the November 15-18, 1993, meeting in Washington D.C. of the National Conference of Catholic Bishops. Protesting any deviation from the pope's wishes, it read:

"ROME'S WAY OR THE HIGHWAY" (Our Sunday Visitor, December 5, 1993, p. 3).

Obviously by "Rome" it meant the Vatican. Such is the common usage. So closely are Catholicism and Rome linked that the Catholic Church is known as the Roman Catholic Church, or simply the Roman Church.

Moreover, for more that a thousand years the Roman Catholic Church exercised both religious and civil control over the entire city of Rome and its surroundings. Pope Innocent III (1198-1216) abolished the secular Roman Senate and placed the administration of Rome directly under his command. The Roman Senate that had governed the city under the Caesars had been known as the Curia Romana (Roman Curia). That name, according to the Pocket Catholic Dictionary, is now the designation of "the whole ensemble of administrative and judicial offices through which the Pole directs the operations of the Catholic Church" (John A. Hardon, S.J., Pocket Catholic Dictionary, Image Books [Doubleday], 1985, p 99).

The popes' authority even extended to large territories outside Rome acquired in the eighth century. At that time, with the help of a deliberately fraudulent document manufactured for the popes known as The Donation of Constantine, Pope Stephen III convinced Pepin, king of the Franks and father of Charlemagne, that territories recently taken by the Lombards from the Byzantines actually had been given to the papacy by the Emperor Constantine. Pepin routed the Lombards and handed to the pope the keys to some 20 cities (Revena, Ancona, Bologna, Ferrara, Iesi, Gubbio, etc.) and the huge chunk of land joining them along the Adriatic coast.

Dated 30 March 315, The Donation declared that Constantine had given these lands, along with Rome and the Lateran Palace, to the popes in perpetuity. In 1440 this document was proven to be a forgery by Lorenzo Valla, a papal aide, and is do recognized by historians today. Yet allegedly infallible popes continue for centuries to assert that The Donation was genuine and on that basis to justify their pomp, power, and possessions. That fraud is still perpetuated by and inscription in the baptistry of Rome's St. John Lateran, which has never been corrected.

Thus the Papal States were literally stolen by the popes from their rightful owners. The papacy controlled and taxed these territories and derived great wealth from them until 1848. At that time the pope, along with the rulers of most of the other divided territories of Italy, was forced to grant his rebellious subjects a constitution. In September 1860, over his raging protests, Pius IX lost all of the papal states to the new, finally united Kingdom of Italy, which left him, at the time of the First Vatican Council in 1870, still in control of Rome and its surroundings.

The point, exactly as John foresaw in his vision, a spiritual entity that claimed a special relationship with Christ and with God became identified with a city that was built on seven hills. That "woman" committed spiritual fornication with earthly rulers and eventually reigned over them. The Roman Catholic Church has been continuously identified with that city. As "the most definitive Catholic encyclopedia since Vatican II" declares:

"...hence, one understands the central place of Rome in the life of the Church today and the significance of the title, Roman Catholic Church, the Church that is universal, yet focused upon the ministry of the Bishop of Rome. Since the founding of the Church there by St. Peter, Rome has been the central of all Christendom" Our Sunday Visitor's Catholic Encyclopedia, 1991, p. 842).

WEALTH FROM ILL-GOTTEN GAIN

The incredible wealth of this woman caught John's attention next. She was dressed "in purple and scarlet color, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication" (Revelation 17:4). The colors of purple and scarlet once again identify the woman with both pagan and Christian Rome. These were the colors of the Roman caesars with which the soldiers mockingly robed Christ as "King" (see Matthew 27:28 and John 19:2,5), which the Vatican took to itself. The woman's colors are literally still the colors of the Catholic clergy! The same Catholic Encyclopedia quoted above states"

Cappa Magna: "A cloak with a long train and a hooded shoulder cape. . .[it] was purple wool for bishops; for cardinals, it was scarlet watered silk (for Advent, Lent, Good Friday, and the conclave, purple wool); and rose watered silk for Gaudete and Laetare Sundays; and for the pope, it was red velvet for Christmas Matins, red serge at other times."

Cassock (also Soutand): "The close-fitting, ankle-length robe worn by the Catholic clergy as their official garb. ...The color for bishops and other prelates is purple, for cardinals scarlet" (Ibid., pp. 175, 178).

The "golden cup [chalice] in her hand" again identifies the woman with the Roman Catholic Church. Broderick's edition of The Catholic Encyclopedia declared of the chalice: "[It is] the most important of the sacred vessels...[It] may be of gold or silver, and if the latter, then the inside must be surfaced with gold" (Robert Broderick, ed., The Catholic Encyclopedia, Thomas Nelson, 1976, pp. 103-4). The Roman Catholic Church possess many thousands of solid gold chalices kept in its churches around the world. Even the bloodstained cross of Christ has been turned to gold and studded with gems in reflection of Rome's great wealth. The Catholic Encyclopedia says: "The pectoral cross [suspended by a chain around the neck and worn over the breast by abbots, bishops, archbishops, cardinals, and the pope] should be made of gold and ... decorated with gems..." (Ibid., p. 466).

Rome has practiced evil to gather her wealth, for the "golden cup" is filled with "abominations and filthiness." Much of the wealth of the Roman Catholic Church was acquired through the confiscation of the property of the pitiful victims of the Inquisitions. Even the dead were exhumed to face trial and property was taken from their heirs by the Church. One historian writes:

"The punishments of the Inquisition did not cease when the victim was burned to ashes, or immured for life in the Inquisition dungeons. His relatives were reduced to beggary by the law that all his possessions were forfeited. The system offered unlimited opportunities for loot. ...

"This source of gain largely accounts for the revolting practice of what has been called `corpse-trials.' ... That the practice of confiscating the property of condemned heretics was productive of many acts of extortion, rapacity and corruption will be doubted by no one who has any knowledge either of human nature or of historical documents. ... no man was safe whose wealth might arouse cupidity, or whose independence might provoke revenge" (William Shaw Kerr, A Handbook of the Papacy, London: Marshall, Morgan & Scott, p. 241).

Most of Rome's wealth has been acquired through the sale of salvation. Untold billions of dollars have been paid to her by those who thought they were purchasing heaven on the installation plan for themselves or loved ones. The practice continues to this day--blatantly where Catholicism is in control, less obviously here in the United States. No greater deception or abomination could be perpetrated. When Cardinal Cajetan, sixteenth-century Dominican scholar, complained about the sale of dispensations and indulgences, the Church hierarchy was indignant and accused him of wanting "to turn Rome into an uninhabited desert, to reduce the Papacy to impotence, to deprive the pope...of the pecuniary resources indispensable for the discharge of his office" (J.H. Ignaz von Dollinger, The Pope and the Council, London, 1869, pp. 307-08).

In addition to such perversions of the gospel which have led hundreds of millions astray, there are the further abominations of corrupt banking practices, laundering of drug money, trading in counterfeit securities, and dealings with the Mafia (fully documented in police and court records), which the Vatican and her representatives around the world have long employed. Nino Lo Bello, former Business Week correspondent in Rome and Rome bureau chief for New York Journal of Commerce, writes that the Vatican is so closely allied with the Mafia in Italy that "many people...believe that Sicily...is nothing more than a Vatican building" (Nino Lo Bello, The Vatican Empire, Trident Press, 1968, p. 167; see also David A. Yallop, In God's Name, Bantam Books, 1984; Richard Hammers, The Vatican Connection, Penguin Books, 1983).

The Roman Catholic Church is by far the wealthiest institution on earth. Yes, one hears from Rome periodic pleas for money--persuasive appeals claiming that the Vatican cannot maintain itself on its limited budget and needs monetary assistance. Such pleas are unconscionable ploys. The value of innumerable sculptures by such masters as Michelangelo, paintings by the world's greatest artists, and countless other art treasures and ancient documents which Rome possesses (not only at the Vatican but in cathedrals around the world) is beyond calculation. At the World Synod of Bishops in Rome, England's Cardinal Heenan proposed that the Church sell some of these superfluous treasures and give the proceeds to the poor. His suggestion was not well-received.

Christ and His disciples lived in poverty. He told His followers not to lay up treasure on this earth but in heaven. The Roman Catholic Church has disobeyed that command and has accumulated a plethora of riches without equal, of which "the Roman Pontiff is the supreme administrator and steward. ..." (James A. Coriden, Thomas J. Green, Donald E. Heintschel, eds., The Code of Canon Law, Paulist Press, 1985, Canon 1273). There is no church, no city which is a spiritual entity, no religious institution past or present which even comes close to possessing the wealth of the Roman Catholic Church. A recent newspaper article described only a fraction of that treasure at one location:

"The fabulous treasure of Lourdes [France], whose existence was kept secret by the Catholic Church for 120 years, has been unveiled. ...Rumors have been circulating for decades about a priceless collection of gold chalices, diamond-studded crucifixes [a far cry from the bloodstained cross on which Christ died], silver and precious stones donated by grateful pilgrims.

"After an indiscreet remark by their press spokesman this week, church authorities agreed to reveal part of the collection...[some] floor-to- ceiling cases were open to reveal 59 solid gold brooches, many encrusted with precious stones.

"Almost hidden by the other treasures in the "Crown" of Notre Dame de Lourdes, made by a Paris goldsmith in 1876 and studded with diamonds.

"Church authorities say they cannot put a value on the collection. `I have no idea,' says Father Pierre-Marie Charriez, director of Patrimony and Sanctuaries. `It is of inestimable value.' ...

Across the road is a building housing hundreds of [antiques] ecclesiastical garments, robes, mitres and sashes--many in heavy gold thread. ...

"`The Church itself is poor.' insists Father Charriez. `The Vatican itself is poor.' (The European, April 9-12, 1992, p. 1). [The treasure described here is only part of that which is kept in one location, the small town of Lorudes, France!]

THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS

The more deeply one probes into the history of the Roman Catholic Church and its current practices, the more impressed one becomes with the amazing accuracy of the vision John received centuries before it would all be lamentable reality. John's attention is drawn to the inscription boldly emblazoned upon the woman's forehead: 'MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH" (Revelation 17:5) Sadly enough, the Roman Catholic Church fits the description "mother of harlots and abominations" as precisely as she fits the other. Much of the cause can be traced to the unbiblical demand that her priests be celibates.

The great apostle Paul was a celibate and recommended that life to others who wanted to devote themselves fully to serving Christ. He did not, however, make it a condition for church leadership as the Catholic Church has done, thereby imposing an unnatural burden upon all clergy that very few could bear. On the contrary, he wrote that bishop should by "the husband of one wife" (1 Timothy 3:2) and set the same requirement for elders (Titus 1:5,6).

Peter, whom the Catholics erroneously claim was the first pope, was married. So were at least some of the other apostles. This fact was not the chance result of their having been married before Christ called them, but it was accepted as an ongoing norm. Paul himself argued that he had the right to marry like the rest: "Have we not power [Greek exousia, the right or privilege or authority] to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles and as the brethren [half-brothers, sons of Mary and Joseph] of the Lord, and as Cephas [Peter]?" (1 Corinthians 9:5).

The Roman Catholic Church, however, has insisted upon celibacy even though many popes, among them Sergius III (904-11), John X (914-28), John XII (955-63), Benedict V (964), Innocent VIII (1484-92), Urban VIII (1623-44), and Innocent X (1644-55), as well as millions of cardinals, bishops, archbishops, monks, and priests throughout history, have repeatedly violated such vows. Not only has celibacy made sinners of the clergy who engage in fornication, but makes harlots out of those with whom they secretly cohabit. Rome is indeed "the mother of harlots"! Her identification as such is unmistakable. No other city, church, or institution in the history of the world is her rival in this particular evil.

History is replete with sayings that mocked the church's false claim to celibacy and revealed the truth: "The holiest hermit has his whore" and "Rome has more prostitutes than any other city because she has the most celibates" are examples. Pius II declared that Rome was "the only city run by bastards" [sons of popes and cardinals]. Catholic historian and former Jesuit Peter de Rosa writes:

"Popes had mistresses of fifteen years of age, were guilty of incest and sexual perversions of every sort, had innumerable children, were murdered in the very act of adultery [by jealous husbands who found them in bed with their wives]. ...In the old Catholic phrase, why be holier than the pope?" (Peter de Rosa, Vicars of Christ: The Dark Side of the Papacy, Crown Publishers, 1988, pp. 396-97).

As for abominations, even Catholic historians admit that among the popes were some of the most degenerate and unconscionable ogres in all of history. Their numerous outrageous crimes, many of which almost beyond belief, have been recited by many historians from preserved documents that reveal the depths of papal depravity, some of which we will cover in later chapters. To call any of these men "His Holiness, Vicar of Christ" makes a mockery of holiness and of Christ. Yet the name of each one of these unbelievably wicked popes--mass murderers, fornicators, robbers, warmongers, some guilty of the massacre of thousands--is emblazoned in honor of the Church's official list of popes. These abominations that John foresaw not only occurred in the past but continue to this very day, as we shall see.

DRUNK WITH THE MARTYR' BLOOD

John next notices that the woman is drunk--and not with an alcoholic beverage. She is drunk with "the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus..." (Revelation 17:6). The picture is a horrible one. It is not merely her hands that are red with this blood, but she is drunk with it! The slaughter of innocents who, for conscience' sake, would not yield to her totalitarian demands has so refused and exhilarated her that she reels in ecstasy.

One thinks immediately of the Inquisitions (Roman, Medieval, and Spanish) which for centuries held Europe in their terrible grip. In his History of the Inquisition, Canon Llorente, who was the Secretary to the Inquisition in Madrid from 1790-1792 and had access to the archives of all the tribunals, estimated that in Spain alone the number of condemned exceeded 3 million, with about 300,000 burned at the stake (R.W. Thompson, The Papacy and the Civil Power, New York, 1876, p. 82). A Catholic historian comments upon events leading up to the suppression of the Spanish Inquisition in 1809:

"When Napoleon conquered Spain in 1808, a Polish officer in his army, Colonel Lemanouski, reported that the Dominicans [in charge of the Inquisition] blockaded themselves in their monastery in Madrid. When Lemanouski's troops forced an entry, the inquisitions denied the existence of any torture chambers.

"The soldiers searched the monastery and discovered them under the floors. The chambers were full of prisoners, all naked, many insane. The French troops, used to cruelty and blood, could not stomach the sight. They emptied the torture-chambers, laid gunpowder to the monastery and blew the place up" (De Rosa, op. cit., p. 172).

To wring out confessions from these poor creatures, the Roman Catholic Church devised ingenious tortures so excruciating and barbarous that one is sickened by their recital. Church historian Bishop William Shaw Kerr writes:

"The most ghastly abomination of all was the system of torture. The accounts of it cold-blooded operations make one shudder at the capacity of human beings for cruelty. And it was decreed and regulated by the popes who claim to represent Christ on earth. ...

"Careful notes were taken not only of all that was confessed by the victim, but of his shrieks, cries, lamentations, broken interjections and appeals for mercy. The most moving things in the literature of the inquisition are not the accounts of their sufferings left by the victims but the sober memoranda kept by the officers of the tribunals. We are distressed and horrified just because their is no intention to shock us" (Kerr, op. cit., pp. 239-40).

The remnants of some of the chambers of horror remain in Europe and may be visited today. They stand as memorials to the zealous outworking of Roman Catholic dogmas which remain in force today, and to a Church which claims to be infallible and to this day justifies such barbarism. They are also memorials to the astonishing accuracy of John's vision in Revelation 17. In a book published in Spain in 1909, Emelio Martinez writes:

"To these three million victims [documented by Llorente] should be added the thousands of Jews and Moors deported from their homeland. ... In just one year, 1481, and just in Seville, the Holy Office [if inquisition] burned 2000 persons; the bones and effigies of another 2000 ... and another 16,000 were condemned to varying sentences" (Emelio Martinez, Recuerdos [Memoirs] de Antano, CLIE, 1909, pp. 105-06).

Peter de Rosa acknowledges that his own Catholic Church "was responsible for persecuting Jews, for the Inquisition, for slaughtering heretics by the thousand, for reintroducing torture in to Europe as part of the judicial process." Yet the Roman Catholic Church has never officially admitted that these practices were evil, nor has she apologized to the world or to any of the victims or their descendants. Nor could Pope John Paul II apologize today because "the doctrines responsible for those terrible things still underpin his position" (De Rosa, op. cit., pp. 20-21). Rome has not changed at heart no matter what sweet words she speaks when it serves her purpose.

MORE BLOOD THAN THE PAGANS

Pagans Rome made sport of throwing to the lions, burning and otherwise killing thousands of Christians and not a few Jews. Yet "Christian" Rome slaughtered many times that number of both Christians and Jews. Beside those victims of the Inquisition, there were Huguenots, Albigenses, Waldenses, and other Christians who were massacred, tortured, and burned at the stake by the hundreds of thousands simply because they refused to align themselves with the Roman Catholic Church and its corruption and heretical dogmas and practices. Out of conscience they tried to follow the teachings of Christ and the apostles independent of Rome, and for that crime they were maligned, hunted, imprisoned, tortured, and slain.

Why would Rome ever apologize for or even admit this holocaust? No one calls her to account today. Protestants have now forgotten the hundreds of thousands of people burned at the stake for embracing the simple gospel of Christ and refusing to bow to papal authority. Amazingly, Protestants are now embracing Rome as Christian while she insists that the "separated brethren" be reconciled to her on her unchangeable terms!

Many evangelical leaders are intent upon working with Roman Catholics to evangelize the world by the year 2000. They don't want to hear any "negative" reminders of the millions of people tortured and slain by the Church to which they now pay homage, or the fact that Rome has a false gospel of sacramental works.

"Christian" Rome slaughtered Jews by the thousands--far more than pagan Rome ever did. The land of Israel was seen as belonging to Roman Catholic Church, not to the Jews. In 1096 Pope Urban Ii inspired the first crusade to retake Jerusalem from the Muslims. With the cross on their shields and armor, the Crusaders massacred Jews across Europe on their way to the Holy Land. Almost their first act upon taking Jerusalem "for Holy Mother Church" was to herd all of the Jews into the synagogue and set it ablaze. These facts of history cannot be swept under the carpet of ecumenical togetherness as though they never happened.

Nor can the Vatican escape considerable responsibility for the Nazi Holocaust, which was thoroughly known to Pius XII in spite of his complete silence throughout the war on the most important of subjects (E.g. Guenter Lewy, The Catholic Church and Hazi Germany, McGraw-Hill, 1964, pp. 300-04).

The involvement of Catholicism in the Holocaust will be examined later. Had the pope protested, as representatives of Jewish organizations and the Allied Powers begged him to do, he would have condemned his own church. The Facts are inescapable:

"In 1936, Bishop Berning of Osnabruch had talked with the Fuehrer for over an hour. Hitler assured his lordship there was no fundamental difference between National Socialism and the Catholic Church. Had not the church, he argued, looked on Jews as parasites and shut them in ghettos?

"`I am only doing,' he boasted, `What the church has done for fifteen hundred years, only more effectively.' Being a Catholic himself, he told Berning, he told Berning, he `admired and wanted to promote Christianity.'" (De Rosa, op. cit., p. 5; Lewy, op. cit., p. 111).

There is, of course, another reason why the Roman Catholic Church has neither apologized for not represented of these crimes. How could she? The execution of heretics (including Jews) was decreed by "infallible" popes.

The Catholic Church herself claims to be infallible, and thus her doctrines could not be wrong.

REIGNING OVER THE KINGS OF THE EARTH

Finally, the angel reveals to John that the woman "is that great city which reigneth over the kings of the earth" (Revelation 17:18). Is there such a city? Yes, and again only one: Vatican City. Popes crowned and deposed kings and emperors, exacting obedience by threatening them with excommunication. At the time of the First Vatican Council in 1869 J.H. Ignaz von Dollinger, Professor of Church History in Munich, warned that Pope Pius IX would force the Council make an infallible dogma out of "that pet theory of the Popes--that they could force kings and magistrates, by excommunication and its consequences, to carry out their sentences of confiscation, imprisonment, and death. ..." He reminded his fellow Roman Catholics of some of the evil consequences of papal political authority:

"When, for instance, [Pope] Martin IV placed King Pedro of Aragon under excommunication and interdict ... then promised indulgences for all their sins to those who fought with him and [tyrant] Charles [I of Naples] against Pedro, finally declared his kingdom forfeit ... which cost the two kings of France and Aragon their life, and the French the loss of an army" (Dollinger, op. cit., pp. 10-12).

Though John Paul II lacks the power to enforce such brutal claims today, his Church still retains the dogmas which authorize him to do so. And the practical effects of his power are no less than those of his predecessors, though exercised quietly behind the scenes. The Vatican is the only city which exchanges ambassadors with nations, and she does so with every major country on earth. Ambassadors come to the Vatican from every major country, including the United States, not out of mere courtesy but because of the pope is the most powerful ruler on earth today. Even President Clinton journeyed to Denver in August 1993 to greet the pope. He addressed him as "Holy Father" and "Your Holiness."

Yes, ambassadors of nations come to Washington D.C., to Paris, or to London, but only because the national government has its capital there. Nor does Washington, Paris, London, or any other city send ambassadors to other countries. Only Vatican City does so. Unlike any other city on earth, the Vatican is acknowledged as a sovereign state in its own right, separate and distinct from the nation of Italy surrounding it. There is no other city in history of which this has been true, and such is still the case today.

Only of the Vatican could it be said that a city reigns over the kings of the earth. The phrase "the worldwide influence of Washington" means the influence not of that city but of the United States, which has its capital there. When one speaks, however, of the influence of the Vatican around the world, that is exactly what is meant--the city and the worldwide power of Roman Catholicism and its leader the pope. Vatican City is absolutely unique.

FORGET A REBUILT BABYLON

Some suggest that the Vatican will move to Babylon in Iraq when it is rebuilt. But why should it? The Vatican has been fulfilling John's vision from its location in Rome for the past 15 centuries. Moreover, we have shown the connection to ancient Babylon which the Vatican has maintained down through history in the paganized Christianity it has promulgated. As for ancient Babylon itself, it wasn't even in existence during the past 2300 years to "reign over the kings of the earth." Babylon lay in ruins while pagan Rome and later Catholic Rome, the new Babylon, was indeed reigning over kings.

One eighteenth-century historian counted 95 popes who claimed to have divine power to depose kings and emperors. Historian Walter James wrote that Pope Innocent III (1198-1216) "held all Europe in his net" (Walter James, The Christian in Politics, Oxford University Press, 1962, p. 47). Gregory IX (1227-41) thundered that the pope was lord and master of everyone and everything. Historian R.W. Southern declared: "During the whole medieval period there was in Rome a single spiritual and temporal authority [the papacy] exercising powers which in the end exceeded those that had ever lain within the grasp of a Roman emperor" (R.W. Southern, Western Society and the Church in the Middle Ages, Vol. 2, Pelican History of the Church series, Penguin Books, 1970, pp. 24-25).

That the popes reigned over kings is an undisputed fact of history that we will more fully document later. That in so doing horrible abominations were committed, as John foresaw, is also indisputable. Pope Nicholas I (858-67) declared: "We [popes] alone have the power to bind and to loose, to absolve Nero and to condemn him; and Christians cannot, under penalty of excommunication, execute other judgment than ours, which alone is infallible." In commanding one king to destroy another, Nicholas wrote:

"We order you, in the name of religion, to invade his states, burn his cities, and massacre his people" (Cormenin, History of the Popes, p. 243, as cited in R.W. Thompson, op. cit., p. 368).

The qualifying information which John gives us under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit for identifying this woman, who is a city, is specific, conclusive, and irrefutable. There is no city upon earth, past or present, which meets all of these criteria except Catholic Rome and now Vatican City. That inescapable conclusion will become increasingly clear as we proceed to uncover the facts.

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[> Re: Connie Asks "Is Iraq Mystery Babylon" -- something to ponder, 22:47:59 12/06/02 Fri

It took centuries of developing ingenious arguments to finally arrive at the theory that the Christ who had "nowhere to lay his head" (Matthew 8:20), who lived in poverty and was crucified naked, was to be represented by a regal pontiff who possessed more than one palace containing in excess of 1100 rooms each, was waited upon day and night by scores of servants, and wore the finest gold-embroidered silk robes! That Christ passed on to Peter such pomp and luxuries, which neither of them knew, is both ludicrous and blasphemous.

The glories and powers enjoyed by popes are not even remotely related to Peter's life of purity and poverty. This fisherman apostle said, "Silver and gold have I none" (Acts 3:6). Nor were papal luxuries and pompous claims of authority over kings and kingdoms known in the Church until centuries later as ambitious popes gradually extended and solidified their authority and control over earthly rulers. Popes began to call themselves by such titles as "supreme ruler of the worlds" and "king of kings." Others claiming to be "God on earth," even the "redeemer" who "hung on the cross as Christ did," asserted that "Jesus put the popes on the same level as God" (August Bernhard Hasler, How the Pope Became Infallible, Doubleday & Co., Inc., 1981, p. 48). Peter would have denounced such pretentious fraud as blasphemy.

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[> [> Yo! Jangles HANEGRAAFF SAYS ROME IS NOT THE HARLOT -- Sola Scriptura, 22:56:14 12/06/02 Fri

I thought Sola and Hanegraaff, according to the Vain Jangler from Moore, were theologically joined at the hip.

HANEGRAAFF SAYS ROME IS NOT THE HARLOT - SOLA BELIEVES THE CONCLUSION IS INESCAPABLE FROM A PLAIN "SENSE READING" OF SCRIPTURE. LOL JACK!

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Dolly -- tamarisk, 14:25:27 12/06/02 Fri

Yule like this one. Just got off the phone while chatting with a pastor friend of mine, back in Ohio, while he was doing a worldwide radio broadcast.

There was a man I know named Al, in a similar job situation as myself, looking for work. I was able to offer words of encouragement in his job search. I just finished up 1 Samuel and started 2 Samuel in my nightly bible study group. My message to Al, is to be like David. David was a man after G_d's own heart. David waited patiently after the kingdom was wrent from Saul, for G_d's timing and His Will. David had many opportunities to destroy Saul, yet David could not raise his hand against G_d's anointed. He patiently waited on G_d.

Pastor Lenz has been preaching and teaching the Holy Word of G_d for almost 60 years. There is probably not a man anywhere whom I love more than he. I've seen the man shed tears of joy while preaching a great truth at both Faith Baptist Church and Baptist Bible Institute. The man has licensed/ordained many men who have gone on to pastor their own congregations, to the mission field, etc. I have great joy in my heart just to hear the voice of my dear Brother in the Lord.

In the minutes we chatted, I remarked about the Rt Rev Fowler types, those claiming to be Independent Baptists yet lost in foul odor of the Word of Faith Movement. Fowler's type of "Baptists," those who commit spiritual rape upon the Holy Word of G_d, have their day coming.

I was asked to give a message this weekend north of here to a group of militia and common law people. My scripture reference for this message is out of Amos 7:13. We shall see if I ever get asked back. lol!!! ;)

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[> Tamarisk -- here is a re-post of Tamarisk's worthy of another look, 22:44:40 12/06/02 Fri

"Was just skimming over your post concerning Rt Rev El Pavo and his posting concerning women in ministry. I skimmed because most of his references were "Catholic" in nature.

It is interesting he would use RCC sources and resources for his debate. In RCC land, the Priest is the representative of Christ on earth. He is perfected through transubsantiation. Even a pedophile priest can perform the "miracle" of changing the elements of the Lord's Supper literally into the body and blood of the Lord.

Nuns perform the function of being Mary's representative on earth. It is symbolic for the sexual union between G_d and Mary, thus, creating Jesus.

So, Jackals using references to "prove" is case for women in the pulpit by the false godz of Romanism is laughable. Should there be women in the church, being used by G_d, to teach? Yes? However, does the Bible ever teach women having authority over men. We can find a few instances of prophetesses and, even, a female judge(Deborah--Judges 4;5). Even Ruth was used by G_d for the good of the Jewish people.

For Jackals to make his argument, he must then admit the weakness of the men in those ministries. There must be no righteous men found to allow a woman to be pastor of a church. That is a great condemnation against that church and those claiming oversight of those ministries.

Think about it Jack. What does that say about the spiritual state of the "men" in those churches?"

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Research into Dake's background gives a picture of moral carelessness in his ministry. -- Jack Howell is also no stranger to moral carelessness, 04:54:39 11/10/02 Sun

by Rev. Joseph R. Chambers, D.D.
from The End Times & Victorious Living, July/August 1999

Facts About The Late Finis Dake

My method in trying to protect the body of Christ from deception is to refrain from any personal attack on anyone, but to deal with doctrine and Biblical truth. It seems appropriate to note some matters that relate to Dake because they were certainly part of the shaping of his ministry.

My concerns are documented with information on the web site owned by the Dake's Ministry or from others, who have researched his personal life.
On the Dake web site there is an article dedicated to Finis Dake himself prior to his death, in which he stated some very remarkable things.

Mr. Dake states,
"I was immediately able to quote hundreds of Scriptures without memorizing them. I also noticed a quickening of my mine to know what chapters and books various verses were found in. Before conversion, I had not read one full chapter of the Bible. This new knowledge of Scripture was a gift to me, for which I give God the praise. From the time of this special anointing until now, I have never had to memorize the thousands of Scriptures I use in teaching. I just quote a verse when I need it, by the anointing of the Spirit."

This is absolutely contrary to Scripture and puts Dake, at least in his mind, on the same level as the Lord Jesus Christ.

Remember, the criticizers of Jesus Christ stated, "How knoweth this man letters, having never learned?" (John 7:15). This would certainly give rise to him having an exalted opinion of himself and may have been one of the reasons for his arrogance.

No Bible writer, Old Testament prophet, or New Testament apostle ever claimed such incredible ability. There is no Scripture to support this kind of gift by the Holy Ghost.

Research into Dake's background gives a picture of moral carelessness in his early ministry. Here is a lengthy quote by researcher, Les Brown.

"Finis Jennings Dake was born in 1902 and died in 1987. His son Finis, Jr. says it took Dake seven years of constant work to complete the 35,000 notes included in the 1,400-page Annotated Bible. It is a virtual systematic theology and a compilation of Dake's views and doctrines. "Dake was ordained under the Assemblies of God in Texas. For a time he did evangelistic work in Oklahoma. He then moved to Zion, Illinois, where his fortunes declined, following a scandal involving a 16-year-old girl.

"The May 27, 1936, issue of the Chicago Daily Tribune reported that 'An indictment, returned last February in Milwaukee, charges that on April 23, 1935, Dake took Emma Barelli, 16 years old, of Kenosha, from her home town to East St. Louis for immoral purposes.' (pg. 1). The following day, the newspaper reported that Dake registered at hotels in Waukegan, Bloomington, and East St. Louis with the girl under the name Christian Anderson and wife.

"Dake, according to government investigators, said he picked the girl up as she was hitchhiking and she insisted he drive her to East St. Louis, where he was to deliver Bible lectures in nearby communities. Dake denied that any immoral action had taken place, claiming, 'I did take her there but there was no immorality involved. I wanted to get her a job.' (Chicago Daily tribune, May 28, 1936, pg. 17).

"When Dake came to trial in Feburuary 1937, he placed himself on the mercy of the court by entering a plea of guilty to the charge of violating the Mann Act. He was sentenced to a six-month stay in the House of Corrections in Milwaukee. Dake admitted to having 'petting parties' with the girl, but again denied any improper relations had occurred between him and the girl. The Waukegan News-Sun reporte 'Had he been found guilty by a trial jury, Rev. Dake would have been subject to a maximum sentence of 10 years in a federal prison and a fine of $10,000.' (Feb. 10, 1937). Dake called the jail sentence a 'vacation' and said he would use his incarceration as an opportunity to preach to the prisoners and devote time to writing a commentary on the Bible.

"The Assemblies of God severed its relationship with Dake, and he later joined the Church of God, Cleveland, Tennessee. It is not clear how his union with the Church of God ended, but Dake eventually became independent of any church."

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Replies:

[> Research into Dake's background gives a picture of moral carelessness in his ministry. -- one of Jack's favorite posts, 22:40:42 12/06/02 Fri


"When Dake came to trial in
Feburuary 1937, he placed himself on the mercy of the
court by entering a plea of guilty to the
charge of violating the Mann Act. He was
sentenced to a six-month stay in the House of
Corrections in Milwaukee. Dake
admitted to having 'petting parties' with the girl,
 but again denied any improper relations
had occurred between him and the girl. The Waukegan
ews-Sun reporte 'Had he been
>found guilty by a trial jury, Rev. Dake would have
been subject to a maximum sentence of 10 years in a
federal prison and a fine of $10,000.'
(Feb. 10, 1937). Dake called the jail sentence a
'vacation' and said he would use his incarceration as
an opportunity to preach to the prisoners and devote
time to writing a commentary on the Bible.

"The Assemblies of God severed its relationship with
Dake, and he later joined the Church of God,
Cleveland, Tennessee. It is not clear how his union
with the Church of God ended, but Dake eventually
became independent of any church."

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ROME'S FRAUDULENT HISTORY (facts speak clearly to support this claim) -- Sola Scriptura, 22:37:38 12/06/02 Fri

ROME'S FRAUDULENT HISTORY

By Dave Hunt

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[The following is chapter 7 of A Woman Rides the Beast: The Roman Catholic Church and the Last Days, copyright 1994 by Dave Hunt, Harvest House Publishers, Eugene, Oregon 97402; used by permission of the author; order from The Berean Call, P.O. Box 7019, Bend, OR 97708. $10 + $2 S/H.]

"Every cleric must obey the Pope, even if he commands what is evil; for no one may judge the Pope." --Pope Innocent III (1198-1216)

"The First See [Rome/papacy] is judged by no one. It is the right of the Roman Pontiff himself alone to judge...those who hold the highest civil office in a state. ... There is neither appeal nor recourse against a decision or decree of the Roman Pontiff." --From today's Code of Canon Law

The Roman Catholic pope has often been the most powerful religious and political figure on earth. This is true today, even though the pope no longer has at his disposal the armies and navies of past Roman pontiffs. The papacy is crucial to Roman Catholicism, which is destined to play a vital role in the last days prior to Christ's second coming. Therefore we must take time to understand the papacy in relation to both the Church and the world. How did the papal office arise? What is its significance today?

The Vatican's constituency of 980 million followers is at least three times the number of citizens in any Western democracy and is exceeded only by the population of China. Even more important, these 980 million people are scattered throughout the world, many of them holding high political, military, and commercial positions in non-Catholic countries. Moreover, the pope has thousands of secret agents worldwide. They include Jesuits, the Knights of Columbus, Knights of Malta, Opus Dei, and others. The Vatican's Intelligence Service and its field resources are second to none.

Politically the pope's power is exercised mostly behind the scenes, at times in cooperation with and at other times in opposition to the CIA, British Intelligence, Israeli Mossad, and other intelligence services. Remember, the pope's 980 million subjects are bound to him by religious ties, which are far stronger than any political loyalties could ever be. No secular government can compete with the motivational power of religious belief.

The typical Roman Catholic, though he may disagree with his church on such issues as homosexuality, abortion, extramarital sex, contraceptives, and the necessity for confession, nevertheless believes that, when it comes time for him to die, Rome holds his only hope. The pope as Christ's Vicar gives a visible reality and practical expression to that hope. The extraordinary position of the pope in relation to members of the Church was expressed succinctly in Rome's La Civilta Cattolica, which a papal brief described in the mid-nineteenth century as "the purest journalistic organ of true Church doctrine" (J.H. Ignaz von Dollinger, The Pope and the Council, London, 1869, p. 3).

"It is not enough for the people only to know that the Pope is the head of the Church ... they must also understand that their own faith and religious life flow from him; that in him is the bond which unites Catholics to one another, and the power which strengthens and the light which guides them; that he is the dispenser of spiritual graces, the giver of the benefits of religion, the upholder of justice, and the protector of the oppressed" (La Civilta Cattolica, 1867, Vol. xii, p. 86).

Similar words have been spoken by the followers of Joseph Smith, Sun Myung Moon, and other cult leaders. The pope is "another Christ" and "God on earth" to his followers, and, as Vatican II says, he can be judged by neither man nor tribunal (Austin Flannery, O.P., gen. ed., Vatican Council II: The Conciliar and Post Cinciliar Documents, rev. ed., Costello Publishing, 1988, p. 380).

CHECK YOUR MIND AT THE DOOR

The pope, and therefore the Church through him as its head, both claim to be in infallible. Ordinary Catholics must not question anything the pope or Church have to say concerning faith and morals. The councils and catechisms have for centuries declared the need for such total submission and still insist upon it today. The Catholic World reminded all Roman Catholics in the United States at the time of the First Vatican Council:

"Each individual must receive the faith and law from the Church with unquestioning submission and obedience of the intellect and the will. ... We have no right to ask reasons of the Church, any more than of Almighty God. ... We are to take with unquestioning docility whatever instruction the Church gives us" (The Catholic World, August 1871, vol. xiii, pp. 58089).

Here we have as clear a denial of individual moral responsibility as can be found in any cult. The same requirement of unthinking submission is demanded in Vatican II. The Code of Canon Law likewise reasserts the same rule:

"The Christian faithful, conscious of their own responsibility, are bound by Christian obedience to follow what the sacred pastors, as representatives of Christ, declare as teachers of the faith or determine as leaders of the Church" (James A. Coriden, Thomas J. Green, Donald E. Heintschel, eds., The Code of Canon Law, Paulist Press, 1985, Canon 212, Section 1).

When it comes to faith and morals and the way of salvation, Catholics must check their minds at the door and accept whatever Church says. They can't even study the Bible for themselves because only the Magisterium can interpret it. Obviously, this prohibition against freedom of conscience is related to the total suppression of basic human rights for all mankind everywhere, which is the unchanging goal of Roman Catholicism.

To understand Roman Catholicism one must ignore the public posturing and public-relations-motivated profile offered by the Catholic Church. The face that Rome shows to the world varies from country to country depending upon the control it has and what it can effect. Instead, we must look to Catholicism's official doctrines, which never change.

Vatican II is thought by most Catholics and non-Catholics to have liberalized Catholicism. In fact, it reaffirmed the canons and decrees of previous key councils: "The sacred council accepts loyally the venerable faith of our ancestors ... and it proposes again the decrees of the Second Council of Nicea, of the Council of Florence, and of the Council of Trent" (Corden, et al., op. cit., Canon 212, Section 1). The Council of Trent denounced the Reformation and damned evangelicals' beliefs with more than 100 anathemas. All of these condemnations of the gospel of God's grace are endorsed and reaffirmed by Vatican II. As for the pope, Vatican II clearly states:

"The Roman Pontiff, head of the college of bishops, enjoys this infallibility in virtue of his office [not the holiness of his life], when, as supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful ... he proclaims in an absolute decision a doctrine pertaining to faith or morals. For that reason his definitions are rightly said to be irreformable ... in no way in need of the approval of others, and do not admit of appeal to any other tribunal.

"... the faithful, for their part, are obliged to submit to their bishops' decision, made in the name of Christ, in matters of faith and morals, and to adhere to it with a ready and respectful allegiance of mind. This loyal submission of the will and intellect must be given, in a special way, to the authentic teaching authority of the Roman Pontiff, even when he does not speak ex cathedra in such wise, indeed, that his supreme teaching authority be acknowledged with respect, and the one sincerely adhere to decision made by him, conformably with his manifest mind and intention..." (Ibid., pp. 379-80).

Obliged to submit to their bishop's decision ... submission of the will and intellect must be given ...! That gives Rome incredible power over devout Catholics. That every Catholic does not obey is not the point; the point is that such wording is the unchangeable teaching and intent of the Church, not only for its members but for all mankind.

While many Catholics rebel against certain Church doctrines, they remain nominally attached to the Church, though they may only attend on Christmas or Easter. When it comes, however, to their hope of someday being released from purgatory and getting to heaven, no Catholic can question the Church or he would cease to be under its protection and thus be damned. Vatican II clearly says:

"This holy Council teaches ... that the Church ... is necessary for salvation. ... Hence, they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it, or to remain in it" (Ibid., pp. 365-66).

Remember that Hitler and Mussolini remained Catholics to the end and were never excommunicated from the Church. So did thousands of the worst Nazi war criminals, whom the Vatican smuggled out of Europe into safe havens in South America. Such archcriminals are honored with Catholic funerals and, like Mafia members, die with the assurance that their Church will continue to say Masses in order to get them out of purgatory and eventually into heaven. It is an insurance policy that very few allow to lapse completely.

"IMPECCABILITY" VERSUS "INFALLIBILITY"

The required blind faith in the pronouncements of the pope and the clergy seems to make sense because the Roman Church is the largest and oldest. Surely so many billions of religious people couldn't be wrong for the past 1500 years! Faith is also bolstered by the assurance that the Roman Catholic Church is the now true church, the one which alone can be traced back to the original apostles, and that its papal authority comes directly from Christ through Peter by a long and unbroken line of apostolic succession.

As proof, the Church provides a list of its popes (thus far 263) all the way back to Peter. Few Catholics know that popes quarreled and fought with one another, excommunicated one another, and sometimes even killed each other. It is difficult to find even a few among the popes after the fifth century who exhibited the basic Christian virtues. Their lives as recorded in the Catholic Encyclopedia read like an unbelievable soap opera of lust, madness, mayhem, and murder. Nevertheless, all of these master criminals, prisoners, adulterers, and mass murderers are considered to have been infallible when they spoke ex cathedra--that is, made dogmatic pronouncements upon faith and morals to the whole church.

Catholic apologists argue that there is a difference between impeccability in character and conduct, which the popes certainly did not have, and infallibility in faith and morals, which every Catholic must believe they had (Karl Keating, Catholicism and Fundamentalism: The Attack on "Romanism" by "Bible Christians," Ignatius Press, 1988, pp. 215-18). What folly to believe that a man who in his life denies the faith and is habitually immoral is nevertheless infallible when he speaks of faith and morals!

Knowledgeable Catholics readily admit that many popes were incredibly evil. But that fact, it is argued, simply proves they were human and allows one to disagree with them in good conscience. To the Catholic it makes good sense that, in spite of the undeniable wickedness of her clergy, the Roman Catholic Church must be mankind's only hope. After all, it was established by Christ Himself, who made Peter the first pope. That is supposedly proved by the Scripture "Thou are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church" (Matthew 16:18), which we will deal with in detail later.

THE UNKNOWN DOGMA

Contrary to what Roman Catholics are taught, the papal office did not originate with Peter. It was centuries before the Bishop of Rome attempted to dominate the rest of the Church, and many centuries more before this primacy was generally accepted. Leo the Great's letter to Flavian in 449 was not accepted until the Council of Chalcedon had approved it.

"[Pope] Leo [I] himself acknowledged that his treatise could not become a rule of faith till it was confirmed by the bishops" (Dollinger, op. cit., p. 59).

There were eight councils of the Church before the schism in 1054 split into Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy, when the Bishop of Rome and the Patriarch of Constantinople excommunicated each other. None of these eight councils was called by the Bishop of Rome, but by the emperor, who also put his stamp of approval upon their decrees. As for papal authority, one Catholic historian reminds us:

"Pope Pelaguis (556-60) talks of heretics separating themselves from the Apostolic See, that is, Rome, Jerusalem, Alexandria plus Constantinople. In all the early writings of the hierarchy there is no mention of a special role for the Bishop of Rome, nor yet the special name of 'Pope' ... Of the eighty or so heresies in the first six centuries, not one refers to the authority of the Bishop of Rome, not one is settled by the Bishop or Rome ... No one attacks the [supreme] authority of the Roman pontiff, because no one has heard of it" (Peter de Rosa, Vicars of Christ: The Dark Side of the Papacy, Crown Publishers, 1988, pp. 205-06).

The Easter Synod of 680 called by Pope Agatho was the first ecclesiastical body that asserted the primacy of Rome over the rest of the Church, but this was not an ecumenical council of the entire Church, so its decision was not generally accepted. As Catholic historian Peter de Rosa points out:

"...not one of the early Fathers of the church say in the Bible any reference to papal jurisdiction over the church. On the contrary, they take it for granted that bishops, especially metropolitans, have the full right to govern and administer their own territory without interference from anyone. The Eastern church never accepted papal supremacy; Rome's attempt to impose it led to the schism.

"...one looks in vain in the first millennium for a single doctrine or piece of legislation imposed by Rome alone on the rest of the church. The only general laws came out of Councils such as Nicaea. In any case, how could the Bishop of Rome have exercised universal jurisdiction in those early centuries when there was no [Roman] Curia, when other bishops brooked no interference in their dioceses from anyone, when Rome issued no dispensations and demanded no tribute or taxation, when all bishops, not just the Bishop of Rome, had the power to bind and loose, when no bishop or church or individual was censured by Rome? Further, for centuries, the Bishop of Rome was chosen by the local citizens--clergy and laity. If he had jurisdiction over the universal church, would not the rest of the world want a say in his appointment? When he was believed to have [universal] supremacy the rest of the church did demand a say in his election. This came about only in the Middle Ages" (Ibid., pp. 248-49).

FROM CALVARY TO REGAL PONTIFF

It requires ingenious interpolation to derive from the simple statement "On this rock I will build my church" a Petrine office, apostolic succession, papal infallibility, and all the pomp, ceremony, and power surrounding the pope today. As one Catholic writer rather sarcastically points out:

"... it required [great] skill to take statements made by a poor Carpenter to an equally poor fisherman and apply them to a regal pontiff who was soon to be called Lord of the World" (Ibid., p. 25).

Yet such is the only biblical foundation upon which the entire superstructure of the Roman Catholic Church has been built. It includes an infallible papacy, apostolic succession, an intricate hierarchy of priests, bishops, archbishops, cardinals, et al, the magisterium of bishops which alone can interpret the Bible, the requirement that for his alleged infallibility the pope must speak ex cathedra to the entire Church on matters of faith or morals, etc., etc. That none of these concepts is even remotely suggested, must less specifically stated, either in Matthew 16:18 or elsewhere in Scripture is dismissed by Catholic apologists, who then look to "tradition" for support. There they enter a maze of deceit and actual fraud.

It took centuries of developing ingenious arguments to finally arrive at the theory that the Christ who had "nowhere to lay his head" (Matthew 8:20), who lived in poverty and was crucified naked, was to be represented by a regal pontiff who possessed more than one palace containing in excess of 1100 rooms each, was waited upon day and night by scores of servants, and wore the finest gold-embroidered silk robes! That Christ passed on to Peter such pomp and luxuries, which neither of them knew, is both ludicrous and blasphemous.

The glories and powers enjoyed by popes are not even remotely related to Peter's life of purity and poverty. This fisherman apostle said, "Silver and gold have I none" (Acts 3:6). Nor were papal luxuries and pompous claims of authority over kings and kingdoms known in the Church until centuries later as ambitious popes gradually extended and solidified their authority and control over earthly rulers. Popes began to call themselves by such titles as "supreme ruler of the worlds" and "king of kings." Others claiming to be "God on earth," even the "redeemer" who "hung on the cross as Christ did," asserted that "Jesus put the popes on the same level as God" (August Bernhard Hasler, How the Pope Became Infallible, Doubleday & Co., Inc., 1981, p. 48). Peter would have denounced such pretentious fraud as blasphemy.

Rome had been the capital of the empire before Constantine moved his palace to the East, and it continues to be regarded as the capital of the western half of the empire. With the Emperor Constantine installed in the city of Constantinople (Istanbul today), the pope developed near absolute power, not only as the head of the Church but as the emperor of the West. When the empire later fell, it was the papacy which gave the fragmented remains its continuity. Thomas Hobbes would say, "The papacy is none other than the ghost of the deceased Roman Empire, sitting crowned upon the grave thereof."

W.H.C. Frend, Emeritus Professor of Ecclesisatical History, in his classic, The Rise of Christianity, points out that by the middle of the fifth century the Church "had become the most powerful single factor in the lives of the peoples of the empire. The Virgin and the saints had replaced the [pagan] gods as patrons of cities" (W.H.C. Frend, The Rise of Christianity, Philadelphia, 1984, p. 773). Pope Leo I (440-461) boasted that St. Peter and St. Paul had "replaced Romulus and Remus as the city's [Rome's] protecting patrons" (H. Chadwick, The Early Church, Wm. B. Eerdmans, 1976, p. 243). Frend writes that "Christian Rome was the legitimate successor of pagan Rome ... Christ had triumphed [and] Rome was ready to extend its sway to the heavens themselves" (Frend, op. cit., p. 707).

SHAMELESS REVISION OF HISTORY

Such was the ambition of most of those who were scrambling onto the alleged throne of Peter and at times warring with one another to gain it. Using the name of Christ and piously making the sign of the cross, they labored mightily to satisfy their lust for power and pleasure and wealth. No justification for making themselves the absolute and infallible rulers over the Church, much less the world, could be found in the writings of the early Fathers and certainly not in Scripture. Therefore the popes had to find other support. The means they chose was to rewrite history by manufacturing allegedly historical documents. The first of these bold forgeries was The Donation of Constantine, which we have already mentioned. It was followed by pseudo-Isidorian Decretals, which were early papal decrees allegedly compiled by Archbishop Isidore (560-636) but actually fabricated in the ninth century. These frauds became the foundation for much "tradition" still relied upon today.

Catholic historian J.H. Ignaz von Dollinger writes that prior "to the Isidorian Decretals no serious attempt was made anywhere to introduce the neo-Roman theory of infallibility. The popes did not dream of laying claim to such a privilege" (Dollinger, op. cit., p. 62). He goes on to explain that these fraudulent Decretals would--

"gradually, but surely, change the whole constitution and government of the Church. It would be difficult to find in all history a second instance of so successful and yet so clumsy a forgery.

For three centuries past [he wrote in 1869] it [the fabrication] has been exposed, yet the principles it introduced and brought into practice have taken such deep root in the soil of the Church, and have so grown into her life, that the exposure of the fraud has produced no result in shaking the dominant system" (Ibid., pp. 76-77).

The Isidorian Decretals involved about a hundred concocted decrees allegedly promulgated by the early popes, along with counterfeit writings of supposed Church authorities and synods. These fabrications were just what Nicholas I (585-67) needed to justify his claims that the popes "held the place of God on earth" with absolute authority over kings, including even the eight to "command massacres" of those who opposed them--all in the name of Christ.

The popes who followed Nicholas were only too happy to emulate his ways, and each of them used his predecessors' actions to justify his own, thus building an ever-larger case for infallibility, but upon a fraudulent foundation. Writing in the nineteenth century, Church historian R.W. Thompson, himself a Catholic, comments:

"Such times as these were adapted to the practice of any kind of imposture and fraud which the popes and clergy considered necessary to strengthen the authority of the papacy. ... the personal interest [and] ambition of Innocent III led him to preserve all these forgeries with care, so that. ... the ‘pious fraud’ might become sanctified by time ... The result he hoped and sought for has been accomplished. ... ‘[These] false Decretals, which are now universally considered to have been bold and unblushing forgeries ... constitute the cornerstone of that enormous system of wrong and usurpation which has since been built up by the papacy, to revive which Pope Pius IX has now put forth his Encyclical and Syllabus [of Errors]. ..." (R.W. Thompson, The Papacy and the Civil Power, New York, 1876, p. 372).

Devout Catholics would be shocked to learn that much of the "apostolic tradition" they have been told supports Roman Catholicism (and is to be regarded upon the same level as Scripture) was actually a deliberately manufactured fraud. The doctrines built upon these forgeries became so interwoven into Catholicism that even after the hoax was exposed the popes were reluctant to make the necessary correction. Pope after infallible pope endorsed the counterfeit. To make a clean break from centuries of accumulated lies would tear apart the very fabric of Roman Catholicism.

Pope Pius IX relied upon the fraud, though it had already been exposed for three centuries, to build his case for pressuring the bishops to make papal infallibility an official dogma at Vatican I. But the testimony of history conclusively refutes both apostolic succession and papal infallibility.

[The previous study is chapter 7 of A Woman Rides the Beast: The Roman Catholic Church in the Last Days, copyright 1994 by Dave Hunt, Harvest House Publishers, Eugene, Oregon 97402; used by permission.]

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Now Jack Howell Thinks He Can Pass Himself Off As Martin Luther! -- Sola Scriptura, 23:08:13 12/05/02 Thu

Jack seek help! You are one sick puppy. Martin Luther posted his "95 Thesis" on the church door at Wittenburg University, Wittenburg, Germany. Each year they have a procession through the streets of the town to re-enact the event. To illustrate how little attention I pay to Jack Howell's posts and don't give him the time of day (eg.: garbage in - garbage out, Tamarisk will have some nice scriptural passages for this too)......I did not even READ his post knowing that he had cut and pasted it from outside sources and am now aware that Jack Howell is trying to receive credit for Martin Luther's 95 Theses, for the love of chutzpah!!!!! LOL!

"I have written 95 points against the catholic church
Posted by Rev. Jack Howell on November 02, 2002 at 12:32:34:....." Amazing. Remember this is the guy who has been caught acting as imaginary people and complimenting himself using PFAKE names and tactics. One need look at his website to see that he is in essence, the only poster there, with very little exception. What a dishonest Screwball.

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[> Dear Howellings, THIS is Martin Luther & YOU ARE NOT!!! -- Sola, 23:12:50 12/05/02 Thu

Letter to the Archbishop Albrecht of Mainz_
by Dr. Martin Luther,
October 31, 1517
Published in:
_Works of Martin Luther_
Adolph Spaeth, L.D. Reed, Henry Eyster Jacobs, et Al., Trans. & Eds.
(Philadelphia: A. J. Holman Company, 1915),
Volume 1, pp. 25-28

LETTER TO THE ARCHBISHOP ALBRECHT
OF MAINZ

OCTOBER 31, 1517

To the Most Reverend Father in Christ and Most Illustrious
Lord, Albrecht of Magdeburg and Mainz, Archbishop and Primate
of the Church, Margrave of Brandenburg, etc., his own lord and
pastor in Christ, worthy of reverence and fear, and most
gracious.

JESUS

The grace of God be with you in all its fulness and power!

Spare me, Most Reverend Father in Christ and Most Illustrious
Prince, that I, the dregs of humanity, have so much boldness
that I have dared to think of a letter to the height of your
Sublimity. The Lord Jesus is my witness that, conscious of my
smallness and baseness, I have long deferred what I am now
shameless enough to do, -- moved thereto most of all by the
duty of fidelity which I acknowledge that I owe to your most
Reverend Fatherhood in Christ. Meanwhile, therefore, may your
Highness deign to cast an eye upon one speck of dust, and for
the sake of your pontifical clemency to heed my prayer.

Papal indulgences for the building of St. Peter's are
circulating under your most distinguished name, and as regards
them, I do not bring accusation against the outcries of the
preachers, which I have not heard, so much as I grieve over
the wholly false impressions which the people have conceived
from them; to wit, -- the unhappy souls believe that if they
have purchased letters of indulgence they are sure of their
salvation; again, that so soon as they cast their
contributions into the money-box, souls fly out of purgatory;
furthermore, that these graces [i.e., the graces conferred in
the indulgences] are so great that there is no sin too great
to be absolved, even, as they say -- though the thing is
impossible -- if one had violated the Mother of God; again,
that a man is free, through these indulgences, from all
penalty and guilt.

O God, most good! Thus souls committed to your care, good
Father, are taught to their death, and the strict account,
which you must render for all such, grows and increases. For
this reason I have no longer been able to keep quiet about
this matter, for it is by no gift of a bishop that man becomes
sure of salvation, since he gains this certainty not even by
the "inpoured grace" of God, but the Apostle bids us always
"work out our own salvation in fear and trembling," and Peter
says, "the righteous scarcely shall be saved." Finally, so
narrow is the way that leads to life, that the Lord, through
the prophets Amos and Zechariah, calls those who shall be
saved "brands plucked from the burning," and everywhere
declares the difficulty of salvation.

Why, then, do the preachers of pardons, by these false fables
and promises, make the people careless and fearless? Whereas
indulgences confer on us no good gift, either for salvation or
for sanctity, but only take away the external penalty, which
it was formerly the custom to impose according to the canons.

Finally, works of piety and love are infinitely better than
indulgences, and yet these are not preached with such ceremony
or such zeal; nay, for the sake of preaching the indulgences
they are kept quiet, though it is the first and the sole duty
of all bishops that the people should learn the Gospel and the
love of Christ, for Christ never taught that indulgences
should be preached. How great then is the horror, how great
the peril of a bishop, if he permits the Gospel to be kept
quiet, and nothing but the noise of indulgences to be spread
among his people! Will not Christ say to them, "straining at a
gnat and swallowing a camel"?

In addition to this, Most Reverend Father in the Lord, it is
said in the Instruction to the Commissaries which is issued
under your name, Most Reverend Father (doubtless without your
knowledge and consent), that one of the chief graces of
indulgence is that inestimable gift of God by which man is
reconciled to God, and all the penalties of purgatory are
destroyed. Again, it is said that contrition is not necessary
in those who purchase souls [out of purgatory] or buy
confessionalia.

But what can I do, good Primate and Most Illustrious Prince,
except pray your Most Reverend Fatherhood by the Lord Jesus
Christ that you would deign to look [on this matter] with the
eye of fatherly care, and do away entirely with that treatise
and impose upon the preachers of pardons another form of
preaching; lest, perchance, one may some time arise, who will
publish writings in which he will confute both them and that
treatise, to the shame of your Most Illustrious Sublimity. I
shrink very much from thinking that this will be done, and yet
I fear that it will come to pass, unless there is some speedy
remedy.

These faithful offices of my insignificance I beg that your
Most Illustrious Grace may deign to accept in the spirit of a
Prince and a Bishop, i.e., with the greatest clemency, as I
offer them out of a faithful heart, altogether devoted to you,
Most Reverend Father, since I too am a part of your flock.

May the Lord Jesus have your Most Reverend Fatherhood
eternally in His keeping. Amen.

From Wittenberg on the Vigil of All Saints, MDXVII.

If it please the Most Reverend Father he may see these my
Disputations, and learn how doubtful a thing is the opinion of
indulgences which those men spread as though it were most
certain.

To the Most Reverend Father,
BROTHER MARTIN LUTHER.


_________________________________________________________________

This text was converted to ascii format for Project Wittenberg by
Allen Mulvey and is in the public domain. You may freely
distribute, copy or print this text. Please direct any comments
or suggestions to: Rev. Robert E. Smith of the Walther Library at
Concordia Theological Seminary.

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Sola -- tamarisk, 12:55:37 12/04/02 Wed

WRT: "Did Jesus Suffer In Hell?"

Hummm! I studied all morning on this subject, in relation to what Rt Rev Fowler wrote concerning this. I have many thoughts concerning Fowler's teaching, but what jumps out of his words are his lack of understanding of a few biblical terms.

Justification
Overcoming(overcome, overcometh)
Once

The Rt Rev's Fowler and Kear need to understand these words. I pray they understand and repent of their false illusion of Ecumenism. G_d's Word and Y'shua's timeless truth only goes forward by a position of non-compromise. Neo-Evangelicalism and Modern Ecumenism; those who seek to tear down the walls of separation, are just plain wrong. They constantly seek to build bridges to the world instead of burning those bridges.

On the evening of 31 October 1517, Martin Luther nailed the list of his ninety-five thesis to the door of the castle church in Wittenberg. Here is a list of thirteen which might help some young pastor or preacher in living and teaching the Word of Truth.

1. Scripture forbids us to have fellowship with unbelief.
2. Scripture commands us to reprove apostasy.
3. Scripture teaches us that we must purge unbelief if we can.
4. Scripture teaches that believer and unbeliever cannot be yoked together in spiritual endeavor.
5. Scripture teaches us to separate from disobedient brethren.
6. G_d's work done in G_d's way produces only good results. G_d's work done in man's way produces good and bad results.
7. Do not affiliate your church with any church, mission, movement or evangelistic effort which does not fully believe in the Word of G_d.
8. Do not affiliate your church with any church, mission, movement, or evangelistic effort with does not practice biblical separation.
9. You cannot preserve a position without crusading for it.
10. When in doubt, don't join.
11. Separation is not the answer in every disagreement between brethren.
12. The Spirit of G_d has NEVER led one Christian contrary to one word of the Word of G_d.
13. At any given time of Church history G_d is most severe on those whom he is using at that moment.

Neo-Evangelicals like Rt Rev's Fowler and Kear would laugh at the very idea of trying to write a list concerning separation, from Scripture. What they are really doing is asking men to set aside careful obedience to Scripture and to rely on human judgment. What they really espouse is the Social Gospel of the National Council of Churches, whose definitions of social involvement have led them to the precipice of communism.

What Mr. Kear is really advocating is determining to engage himself, and his followers, in the theological differences of the day. What he is really doing is leading people away from the Word of G_d.

People like the Rt Rev Fowler and Kear seek to lead men away from Biblical Truth by THEIR interpretation of extra-biblical revelation. Since they believe in salvation by works, i.e. salvation by evidence of speaking in tongues, etc., they have attempted to shift the Church away from allegiance to the Bible. Oh! They may speak Biblical things, but, they don't really believe the Bible is their final authority for Christian living. They rely, a great deal on, "HIGHER REVELATION."

Every farmer takes care of his "fence line" because it defines the borders of his farm. If all line fences were torn down, things would go on fairly well for the generation which knew were the fence used to be. However, there would be trouble in time to come with generations who never knew where the fence used to be. Neo-Evangelicalism today seeks to tear down the fence and today's generation can't even remember where it was.

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[> Tamarisk: LET IT SNOW, LET IT SNOW, LET IT SNOW @ PFAI -- Sola, 17:30:34 12/04/02 Wed

The SNOW JOB at PFAKE-PFAI continues........

Well stated, Tamarisk! Thanks!

”WRT: "Did Jesus Suffer In Hell?"”

Succinctly stated: John 19

29A jar of wine vinegar was there, so they soaked a sponge in it, put the sponge on a stalk of the hyssop plant, and lifted it to Jesus' lips. 30When he had received the drink, Jesus said, "It is finished."

In accordance with prophecy. - The false idea that Jesus actually suffered in hell would nullify his proclamation, wouldn’t it? The long and short of it. Notice the windy ways around that fact with the apostate

Regarding their ecumenical, neo-evangelical, post modernist “ca-ca-can’t we all jus-jus-jus-just get a-a-a-along?” One wonders is they ever have read the epistles. The following passage nips the notion of fellowshipping with unbelievers pretty much sums it up me thinks.

2 Corinthians 6

Do Not Be Yoked With Unbelievers

14”Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? 15What harmony is there between Christ and Belial[1] ? What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever?” NIV

Footnotes - 6:15 Greek Beliar, a variant of Belial

2 Corinthians 6

14Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers [do not make mismated alliances with them or come under a different yoke with them, inconsistent with your faith]. For what partnership have right living and right standing with God with iniquity and lawlessness? Or how can light have fellowship with darkness?
15What harmony can there be between Christ and Belial [the devil]? Or what has a believer in common with an unbeliever? Amplified Bible

================================================

***Note that Rt. Rev Jangles has frequently accused moi (on multiple boards), of being a “KJV-Only” “heretic” along with his usual requisite slander and attendant insults which accompany all of Fowler’s posts aimed at moi. Those who have witnessed me speaking out against “KJV-Only” recognize Jangle’s desperate bleeps to be as devoid of reality as his “lurker friends of Jack’s” that don’t exist in real time. LOL! It also speaks to his complete lack of integrity, and credibility. To assail someone for doing something they have expressly spoken passionately against in public for seven years defies sanity. He often is witnessed behaving in the most vacant and moral-less ways.

Most all of the articles he pinches, for instance, which are repeated (ad nauseum) on his sites are filched from other’s legally protected copyrighted work product. (“sites” plural, BTW. What’s up with THAT obsessive behavior, anyway? Good gravy! How many sites does the compulsive man need?) Rev. Jangles pirates from others while making implications that their efforts were actually penned by Jangles. A good example would be his prefacing the 90+ “things ‘he’ has against the Roman Catholic Church” with a statement like: “As I have said in the past……” before launching to a direct verbatim cut and past from a wholly independent source who no doubt spent much effort penning that article which Jackal’s plagiarized. It becomes so transparently fraudulent and deceptive to those familiar with his real syntax and education.

“Bishop” Beezle Bubba somehow believes that others on the internet who use other’s work under “fair use” provisions WITH CREDIT given to the author (according to fair use) - are analogous to Jackal’s purloining the efforts of others and beginning THEIR efforts with a statement at the heading implying Jangles was the author. Ju-Ju-Jangler has a cut and paste feeding frenzy from sites such as this:

http://dmoz.org/Society/Religion_and_Spirituality/Christianity/Theology/Charismatic/

Here are some topics of their cornucopia of heresy:

Claim Prosperity From The Devil, Hold Fast Your Confession, The Tithe Belongs To Ministers, You Must Control The Devil, Ministry Teaching Site of Pastor Rod Parsley, E.W. Kenyon…blah, blah, blah.

You will note that one source, Tom Brown, whom Fowler has used in the past, and believes Jesus was tortured in Hell for 3 days, HE ALSO CLAIMS TO HAVE SEEN JESUS and wrote a book about it.

Nuff said. Have a great evening! Thank you for the discerning post.

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[> [> Sola -- tamarisk, 11:04:56 12/05/02 Thu

WRT: John 19:30 and "IT IS FINISHED." If we read further verses, since the High Sabbath was nigh, they sough Pilate to have their legs broken. To be nailed to a cross for crucifixion was already a painful ordeal. The very act exerted significant pressure on the diaphragm and lungs, requiring the condemned person to use his legs to lift his body to facilitate breathing. Broken legs would inhibit one from using his legs to lift himself to help him breathe.

However, to fulfill scripture, Y'shua had already died, thus, "IT IS FINISHED." Satan, at this point, must have been in all his glory, seeing the Son of G_d crucified of the Cross of Calvary. The "cherry" on this sweet story is the resurrection. My guess is this is why the Rt Rev Fowler believes in the very RCC interpretaton of "Good Friday."

Iffin youse want some enjoyment, read the entire thread on "tithing" at the newly named Dorito forum called "Friends Studying Scripture." The usual Kumbaya/Pacadorian/Koffee Klatch/Neo-Evangelicals abound. Just click on the opening of the thread and go down through the posters. You can just about tell, before hand, what they will say.

None of them understand the "tithe" is NOT for a True, New Testament Church. None of them are Jewish, nor understand the First, Second or Third Tithes in the Tanakh.

Then, there's Jeanette, who still does NOT understand the teaching on the 144,000 and how G_d can hear their cries of persecution while on earth. I don't know how or why Jeanette believes her prayer is heard by, and answered from heaven. G_d hears "Help Lord,"(Psalm 12--read all) from heaven.

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[> [> [> Here is an example of Jack's DISHONESTY -- Sola Scriptura, 22:50:05 12/05/02 Thu

This was a poster's reply to The Fowler's tactic of stealing from other's and laying claim to it's authorship: "one of jack howell's delusions is he steals others work and claims it as his own.........In that way jack creates the delusion in his mind that he is smart, important and worthy of praise, exaltation and respect that he cannot acquire on his own."

THE FOLLOWING POST JANGLER CLAIMS TO HAVE AUTHORED:

"I have written 95 points against the catholic church
Posted by Rev. Jack Howell on November 02, 2002 at 12:32:34:

"OCTOBER 31, 1517

1. Our Lord and Master Jesus Christ, when He said Poenitentiam agite, willed that the whole life of believers should be repentance.

2. This word cannot be understood to mean sacramental penance, i.e., confession and satisfaction, which is administered by the priests.

3. Yet it means not inward repentance only; nay, there is no inward repentance which does not outwardly work divers mortifications of the flesh.

4. The penalty [of sin], therefore, continues so long as hatred of self continues; for this is the true inward repentance, and continues until our entrance into the kingdom of heaven.

5. The pope does not intend to remit, and cannot remit any penalties other than those which he has imposed either by his own authority or by that of the Canons.

6. The pope cannot remit any guilt, except by declaring that it has been remitted by God and by assenting to God's remission; though, to be sure, he may grant remission in cases reserved to his judgment. If his right to grant remission in such cases were despised, the guilt would remain entirely unforgiven.

7. God remits guilt to no one whom He does not, at the same time, humble in all things and bring into subjection to His vicar, the priest.

8. The penitential canons are imposed only on the living, and, according to them, nothing should be imposed on the dying.

9. Therefore the Holy Spirit in the pope is kind to us, because in his decrees he always makes exception of the article of death and of necessity.

10. Ignorant and wicked are the doings of those priests who, in the case of the dying, reserve canonical penances for purgatory.

11. This changing of the canonical penalty to the penalty of purgatory is quite evidently one of the tares that were sown while the bishops slept.

12. In former times the canonical penalties were imposed not after, but before absolution, as tests of true contrition.

13. The dying are freed by death from all penalties; they are already dead to canonical rules, and have a right to be released from them.

14. The imperfect health [of soul], that is to say, the imperfect love, of the dying brings with it, of necessity, great fear; and the smaller the love, the greater is the fear.

15. This fear and horror is sufficient of itself alone (to say nothing of other things) to constitute the penalty of purgatory, since it is very near to the horror of despair.

16. Hell, purgatory, and heaven seem to differ as do despair, almost-despair, and the assurance of safety.

17. With souls in purgatory it seems necessary that horror should grow less and love increase.

18. It seems unproved, either by reason or Scripture, that they are outside the state of merit, that is to say, of increasing love.

19. Again, it seems unproved that they, or at least that all of them, are certain or assured of their own blessedness, though we may be quite certain of it.

20. Therefore by "full remission of all penalties" the pope means not actually "of all," but only of those imposed by himself.

21. Therefore those preachers of indulgences are in error, who say that by the pope's indulgences a man is freed from every penalty, and saved;

22. Whereas he remits to souls in purgatory no penalty which, according to the canons, they would have had to pay in this life.

23. If it is at all possible to grant to any one the remission of all penalties whatsoever, it is certain that this remission can be granted only to the most perfect, that is, to the very fewest.

24. It must needs be, therefore, that the greater part of the people are deceived by that indiscriminate and highsounding promise of release from penalty.

25. The power which the pope has, in a general way, over purgatory, is just like the power which any bishop or curate has, in a special way, within his own diocese or parish.

26. The pope does well when he grants remission to souls [in purgatory], not by the power of the keys (which he does not possess), but by way of intercession.

27. They preach man who say that so soon as the penny jingles into the money-box, the soul flies out [of purgatory].

28. It is certain that when the penny jingles into the money-box, gain and avarice can be increased, but the result of the intercession of the Church is in the power of God alone.

29. Who knows whether all the souls in purgatory wish to be bought out of it, as in the legend of Sts. Severinus and Paschal.

30. No one is sure that his own contrition is sincere; much less that he has attained full remission.

31. Rare as is the man that is truly penitent, so rare is also the man who truly buys indulgences, i.e., such men are most rare.

32. They will be condemned eternally, together with their teachers, who believe themselves sure of their salvation because they have letters of pardon.

33. Men must be on their guard against those who say that the pope's pardons are that inestimable gift of God by which man is reconciled to Him;

34. For these "graces of pardon" concern only the penalties of sacramental satisfaction, and these are appointed by man.

35. They preach no Christian doctrine who teach that contrition is not necessary in those who intend to buy souls out of purgatory or to buy confessionalia.

36. Every truly repentant Christian has a right to full remission of penalty and guilt, even without letters of pardon.

37. Every true Christian, whether living or dead, has part in all the blessings of Christ and the Church; and this is granted him by God, even without letters of pardon.

38. Nevertheless, the remission and participation [in the blessings of the Church] which are granted by the pope are in no way to be despised, for they are, as I have said, the declaration of divine remission.

39. It is most difficult, even for the very keenest theologians, at one and the same time to commend to the people the abundance of pardons and [the need of] true contrition.

40. True contrition seeks and loves penalties, but liberal pardons only relax penalties and cause them to be hated, or at least, furnish an occasion [for hating them].

41. Apostolic pardons are to be preached with caution, lest the people may falsely think them preferable to other good works of love.

42. Christians are to be taught that the pope does not intend the buying of pardons to be compared in any way to works of mercy.

43. Christians are to be taught that he who gives to the poor or lends to the needy does a better work than buying pardons;

44. Because love grows by works of love, and man becomes better; but by pardons man does not grow better, only more free from penalty.

45. Christians are to be taught that he who sees a man in need, and passes him by, and gives [his money] for pardons, purchases not the indulgences of the pope, but the indignation of God.

46. Christians are to be taught that unless they have more than they need, they are bound to keep back what is necessary for their own families, and by no means to squander it on pardons.

47. Christians are to be taught that the buying of pardons is a matter of free will, and not of commandment.

48. Christians are to be taught that the pope, in granting pardons, needs, and therefore desires, their devout prayer for him more than the money they bring.

49. Christians are to be taught that the pope's pardons are useful, if they do not put their trust in them; but altogether harmful, if through them they lose their fear of God.

50. Christians are to be taught that if the pope knew the exactions of the pardon-preachers, he would rather that St. Peter's church should go to ashes, than that it should be built up with the skin, flesh and bones of his sheep.

51. Christians are to be taught that it would be the pope's wish, as it is his duty, to give of his own money to very many of those from whom certain hawkers of pardons cajole money, even though the church of St. Peter might have to be sold.

52. The assurance of salvation by letters of pardon is vain, even though the commissary, nay, even though the pope himself, were to stake his soul upon it.

53. They are enemies of Christ and of the pope, who bid the Word of God be altogether silent in some Churches, in order that pardons may be preached in others.

54. Injury is done the Word of God when, in the same sermon, an equal or a longer time is spent on pardons than on this Word.

55. It must be the intention of the pope that if pardons, which are a very small thing, are celebrated with one bell, with single processions and ceremonies, then the Gospel, which is the very greatest thing, should be preached with a hundred bells, a hundred processions, a hundred ceremonies.

56. The "treasures of the Church," out of which the pope grants indulgences, are not sufficiently named or known among the people of Christ.

57. That they are not temporal treasures is certainly evident, for many of the vendors do not pour out such treasures so easily, but only gather them.

58. Nor are they the merits of Christ and the Saints, for even without the pope, these always work grace for the inner man, and the cross, death, and hell for the outward man.

59. St. Lawrence said that the treasures of the Church were the Church's poor, but he spoke according to the usage of the word in his own time.

60. Without rashness we say that the keys of the Church, given by Christ's merit, are that treasure;

61. For it is clear that for the remission of penalties and of reserved cases, the power of the pope is of itself sufficient.

62. The true treasure of the Church is the Most Holy Gospel of the glory and the grace of God.

63. But this treasure is naturally most odious, for it makes the first to be last.

64. On the other hand, the treasure of indulgences is naturally most acceptable, for it makes the last to be first.

65. Therefore the treasures of the Gospel are nets with which they formerly were wont to fish for men of riches.

66. The treasures of the indulgences are nets with which they now fish for the riches of men.

67. The indulgences which the preachers cry as the "greatest graces" are known to be truly such, in so far as they promote gain.

68. Yet they are in truth the very smallest graces compared with the grace of God and the piety of the Cross.

69. Bishops and curates are bound to admit the commissaries of apostolic pardons, with all reverence.

70. But still more are they bound to strain all their eyes and attend with all their ears, lest these men preach their own dreams instead of the commission of the pope.

71 . He who speaks against the truth of apostolic pardons, let him be anathema and accursed!

72. But he who guards against the lust and license of the pardon-preachers, let him be blessed!

73. The pope justly thunders against those who, by any art, contrive the injury of the traffic in pardons.

74. But much more does he intend to thunder against those who use the pretext of pardons to contrive the injury of holy love and truth.

75. To think the papal pardons so great that they could absolve a man even if he had committed an impossible sin and violated the Mother of God -- this is madness.

76. We say, on the contrary, that the papal pardons are not able to remove the very least of venial sins, so far as its guilt is concerned.

77. It is said that even St. Peter, if he were now Pope, could not bestow greater graces; this is blasphemy against St. Peter and against the pope.

78. We say, on the contrary, that even the present pope, and any pope at all, has greater graces at his disposal; to wit, the Gospel, powers, gifts of healing, etc., as it is written in I. Corinthians xii.

79. To say that the cross, emblazoned with the papal arms, which is set up [by the preachers of indulgences], is of equal worth with the Cross of Christ, is blasphemy.

80. The bishops, curates and theologians who allow such talk to be spread among the people, will have an account to render.

81. This unbridled preaching of pardons makes it no easy matter, even for learned men, to rescue the reverence due to the pope from slander, or even from the shrewd questionings of the laity.

82. To wit: -- "Why does not the pope empty purgatory, for the sake of holy love and of the dire need of the souls that are there, if he redeems an infinite number of souls for the sake of miserable money with which to build a Church? The former reasons would be most just; the latter is most trivial."

83. Again: -- "Why are mortuary and anniversary masses for the dead continued, and why does he not return or permit the withdrawal of the endowments founded on their behalf, since it is wrong to pray for the redeemed?"

84. Again: -- "What is this new piety of God and the pope, that for money they allow a man who is impious and their enemy to buy out of purgatory the pious soul of a friend of God, and do not rather, because of that pious and beloved soul's own need, free it for pure love's sake?"

85. Again: -- "Why are the penitential canons long since in actual fact and through disuse abrogated and dead, now satisfied by the granting of indulgences, as though they were still alive and in force?"

86. Again: -- "Why does not the pope, whose wealth is to-day greater than the riches of the richest, build just this one church of St. Peter with his own money, rather than with the money of poor believers?"

87. Again: -- "What is it that the pope remits, and what participation does he grant to those who, by perfect contrition, have a right to full remission and participation?"

88. Again: -- "What greater blessing could come to the Church than if the pope were to do a hundred times a day what he now does once, and bestow on every believer these remissions and participations?"

89. "Since the pope, by his pardons, seeks the salvation of souls rather than money, why does he suspend the indulgences and pardons granted heretofore, since these have equal efficacy?"

90. To repress these arguments and scruples of the laity by force alone, and not to resolve them by giving reasons, is to expose the Church and the pope to the ridicule of their enemies, and to make Christians unhappy.

91. If, therefore, pardons were preached according to the spirit and mind of the pope, all these doubts would be readily resolved; nay, they would not exist.

92. Away, then, with all those prophets who say to the people of Christ, "Peace, peace," and there is no peace!

93. Blessed be all those prophets who say to the people of Christ, "Cross, cross," and there is no cross!

94. Christians are to be exhorted that they be diligent in following Christ, their Head, through penalties, deaths, and hell;

95. And thus be confident of entering into heaven rather through many tribulations, than through the assurance of peace.

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This is a Good Counter to Those Who Would Be a Monarchy -- Sola Scriptura, 20:00:52 12/05/02 Thu


The Spin Stops Here!!! Indeed.

A little history on the man responsible for the Clinton Counter Library, John LeBoutillier. He was in the 80's a congressman from NY. He was the youngest man in congress and full of fire. The years have done nothing to dampen his passion. Here is the famous quote that resulted in a massive Democrat Hissy Fit which relentlessly hounded LeBoutillier out of office: "Tip O'Neill is just like Congress; old, fat and out of control." - J. LeBoutillier - He claimed he wants to one day re-enter politics. But, according to him, it "won't be as a rep. next time" - Look out! Queen Hillary.

================================================

Alternative Clinton Library Keeps the Truth Alive

Wes Vernon, NewsMax.com
Thursday, Dec. 5, 2002

WASHINGTON – Bill Clinton, America’s only elected president ever impeached, will not get away with rewriting the history of his legacy. In the fall of 2003, a Counter Clinton Library is scheduled to open in Little Rock, Ark., to set the record straight.

Furthermore, it will be located just a short walk from the official Clinton Library that will spin the legacy, as presented by Bill and Hillary Clinton. The Counter Clinton Library is set to open about six months ahead of the sanitized Clinton version.

John LeBoutillier, former congressman and current NewsMax pundit, is a co-founder of the project, in partnership with independent Houston businessman Dick Erickson, who will be co-founder and executive director.

Taxpayer-Supported Tool to 'Elect Hillary President'

LeBoutillier sees the authorized Clinton Library, which he calls “the Clinton Lie-brary,” as “a campaign vehicle to elect Hillary as the next president and to have Bill Clinton back living in the White House.”

You, the American taxpayer, are expected to pay the bill for Clinton’s Lie-brary/Hillary propaganda sounding board, along with donations from “rich foreigners, including Red Chinese and Saudis,” says LeBoutillier. The Counter Clinton Library will not depend on taxpayer appropriations, but instead will rely on private donations<.

Whereas the official Clinton Presidential Center and "LIE-brary" will be full of “distortions, slanders, spins and outright lies about their atrocious White House legacy,” the Counter Clinton Library (CCL) will allow visitors leaving the nearby official spin machine to review all the scandals the Clinton acolytes will ignore. As LeBoutillier puts it, they will have a chance to “deprogram” themselves.

There will be 16 rooms, each one named after a specific scandal or unsavory instance for which the Clinton presidency will be remembered by the un-brainwashed. For example, there will be a Travelgate Room, Number 5.

Trail of Trash

LeBoutillier’s favorite is Room Number 16, the Exit Room.

“Remember how the Clintons trashed the White House?” he recalled in an interview with NewsMax.com. “Bush came in, and he didn’t want to make a big deal out of it. He wanted to move on.

“So they sort of did a whitewash of an investigation and left it alone. The permanent White House staff – the ushers, the people who take care of the place – they, however, wrote a 78-page for the Government Accounting Office.”

That report will serve as the basis for the Exit Room, where “we’re going to re-create parts of the White House exactly as the Clintons left them,” trashed, computers being ripped apart, damaged and defiled.

“We will re-create this to show, in the most vivid manner as possible, just how much damage the Clintons did to ‘the people’s house,” according to CCL’s “Word From Founders” paper.

Beyond the sleaze and criminal behavior, the greatest damage done to these United States of America by the Clintons was perhaps the downgrading or trivializing America’s security.

Seasoned in Treason

The National Insecurity Hall will detail, “often in the Clintons’ own words and actions as captured on video,” their “systematic destruction of our military and intelligence capability, their hatred for the military uniform and flag of the United States, their cozying up to Red China, their tolerance of ‘leaking’ Top Secret information to our enemies — and their total devotion to undermining America’s superpower status,” the founders promise.

Some might have been impressed by Clinton’s recent speech, for which he received his customary $100,000, where he said if Iraq crossed the Jordan River, “I would join the Israeli army, grab a rifle and get in the ditch and die.” The Counter Clinton Library will remind visitors of his life-long antipathy toward military service, including his statement that he “loathed the military and all it stands for.”

The Grifters

The Grifter Gallery will note “each and every instance of the Clintons’ grubbing for money, ‘losing’ incriminating documents then suddenly ‘finding’ them, perverting the confidentiality of FBI files, selling presidential pardons for cash, using White House coffees and sleepovers to raise soft campaign money and ‘selling’ access to Saturday morning presidential radio addresses for cash contributions to their campaigns.

"Also the thefts and outright stealing by the Clintons of White House furnishings and artwork and the deplorable looting by the Clinton entourage of the USS Roosevelt.”

Remember the Rapist

There will be a Department of Domestic Affairs to catalog, “as has never been done before,” Bill Clinton’s “despicable treatment of the women he has pursued and slandered and threatened.” This will include “never-before-heard videotaped testimonies of what he did to them — and how he treated them.”

This will not be a rehash of old stuff. Authors and researchers “have uncovered more violent attacks and rapes in Clinton’s past and we will make those accounts available,” the CCL contemplates.

Ever wonder exactly how the Clinton “White House spin” was hatched? CCL librarians announce that “long-time Clinton insider Dick Morris has agreed to donate all his secret White House Agendas to the Counter Clinton Library.”

Again, new stuff here. “No one — other than the Clintons themselves and Morris — has ever seen these detailed plans of Morris’ meetings with Bill Clinton as they wrote speeches together and plotted political strategy.”

The Real Hillary

The Hall of Shame will cover the unauthorized life story of Hillary Clinton, including such fiascoes as “her Yale Law School defense of Black Panther murderers,” as well as her “amazing cattle futures investment successes,” her plan “to nationalize health care,” and the then first lady’s role “in releasing convicted FALN bombers just in time to curry favor with the Puerto Rican vote in New York.”

Mrs. Clinton’s $8 million dollar memoir is due out before too long. The CCL will counter that volume “with truth and facts.”

The Counter Clinton Library will feature “voluminous research material — from Whitewater records to the Special Counsel’s Report to the House Impeachment record — which scholars can pore over for years and get the real truth about the Clintons. Certainly these unflattering records will not be across the street at Bill and Hillary’s library.”

Also to be punctured are Clinton’s “total lies and exaggerations” such as his claimed credit for the 1990’s economic recovery, the explosive growth of the Internet, and changes in education. The Anti-Propaganda Pavilion “will bring in leading economists, business leaders and educators to show how Bill Clinton actually did more harm than good” in these and other policy areas.

The CCL will include a Broadcast Center where Sean Hannity, Rush Limbaugh, Bill O’Reilly and other radio and TV talk show hosts will be invited to broadcast their shows.

The Spin Stops Here

Other presidents and their supporters have erected libraries to store their memorabilia and offer a repository of papers for scholarly study. Why then should there be a “counter” library for this particular president?

A Counter Clinton Library is necessary, its co-founders say, because Clinton wants to alter his reputation “from one of impeachment and disgrace — to one of respectability and statesmanship.” No “counter” presidential library has ever existed before “because no presidency has done so much to tear down this country.”

“Our goal,” says the Counter Clinton Library’s statement, is “to not let one Clinton lie go unanswered, to not let one Clinton slander go unchallenged.”

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Sola, "Ed Adams" et al, Bethany -- tamarisk, 08:25:48 12/05/02 Thu

I have been studying the Scripture in relation to the Rt Rev Fowler's claim you or I do not know what we are talking about concerning human goobermint in AmeriKa today. Fowler's interpretation and justification for his ministry being an agent of the IRS through his love of the 501 c 3, tax exempt status, is false. Fowler certainly has a World Council/National Council of Churches view of the coming New World Odor.

Amos 7:13
13 But prophesy not again any more at Bethel: for it is the king's chapel, and it is the king's court.

4428 melek (meh'-lek);
from 4427; a king:
KJV-- king, royal.

4720 miqdash (mik-dawsh');
or miqqedash (Exod. 15:17) (mik-ked-awsh'); from 6942; a consecrated thing or place, especially, a palace, sanctuary (whether of Jehovah or of idols) or asylum:
KJV-- chapel, hallowed part, holy place, sanctuary.

This is G_d's answer to Amos for the king falsely "ordaining" a feast in the temple. Jeroboam made a feast(1 Kings 12:32; 13:1), and offered sacrifices upon the alter. The sacrifice was strictly and solely a function of the consecrated Levitical priests.

For King George, Prince John, etc., to offer special days of rememberance, being solely the function of ordained pastors and preachers, is a fraud. GWB has never renounced his membership in the ultra Freemasonic, Society of Scull and Bones. John Ashcroft is a Mason. Dick Cheney is a CFR/Illuminati/NWO puppet, and has a fag daughter, which he condones. They are all, modern day Jeroboam's and Pharisee's.

This is the effect of preaching the truth to the Pharisee's. The same is coming to AmeriKa.
Acts 4:17-18
17 But that it spread no further among the people, let us straitly threaten them, that they speak henceforth to no man in this name.
18 And they called them, and commanded them not to speak at all nor teach in the name of Jesus.

Acts 5:28
28 Saying, Did not we straitly command you that ye should not teach in this name? and, behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this man's blood upon us.

Acts 5:40
40 And to him they agreed: and when they had called the apostles, and beaten them, they commanded that they should not speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go.

If you preach against the NWO/World and National Council of Churches, in AmeriKa today, this is what you may expect, and worse. It is likely, in the FEMA camps, where they well send those rejecting war with Iraq, forced injections for smallpox/anthrax, etc., you will not be released under the Antichrist's reign.

From Vines Expository Bible

KINGDOM

The function and place of the king is important in the development of the concept "kingdom." "Kingdom" may signify the head of the kingdom. The word further has the meaning of the royal "rule," the royal "sovereignty," and the "dominion." The royal "sovereignty" was taken from Saul because of his disobedience.

1 Sam 28:17
17 And the LORD hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the LORD hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbour, even to David:

"Royal sovereignty" is also the sense in

Jer 27:1
1 In the beginning of the reign of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah came this word unto Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,

"In the beginning of the reign of Jehoiakim...." The Old Testament further defines as expressions of the royal "rule" all things associated with the king:

(1) the throne: "And it shall be, when he sitteth upon the throne of his kingdom, that he shall write him a copy of this law in a book out of that which is before the priests the Levites."
(2) the pagan sanctuary supported by the throne: "But prophesy not again any more at Beth-el: for it is the king's chapel, and it is the king's court" ; and (3) a royal city: "And David said unto Achish, If I have now found grace in thine eyes, let them give me a place in some town in the country, that I may dwell there: for why should thy servant dwell in the royal city with thee?"

All human rule is under God's control. Consequently the Old Testament fully recognizes the kingship of God. The Lord ruled as king over His people Israel:

1 Chr 29:11
11 Thine, O LORD, is the greatness, and the power, and the glory, and the victory, and the majesty: for all that is in the heaven and in the earth is thine; thine is the kingdom, O LORD, and thou art exalted as head above all.

He graciously ruled over His people through David and his followers until the Exile:

2 Chr 13:5
5 Ought ye not to know that the LORD God of Israel gave the kingdom over Israel to David for ever, even to him and to his sons by a covenant of salt?

There is quite an interesting Jewish teaching on the salt covenant. I will teach on it later.

In the New Testament usage all the above meanings are to be associated with the Greek word basileia ("kingdom"). This is the major translation of mamlakah in the Septuagint, and as such it is small wonder that the New Testament authors used this word to refer to God's "kingdom": the realm, the king, the sovereignty, and the relationship to God Himself.

It is just a matter of time before Rt Rev Fowler and his minions contact the goobermint, asking for "help and relief" from these "attacks" against his ministry. That will seal Fowler's fate and will expose him as a follower of Satan, the Devil, and NOT Y'shua.

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Sola, "Ed Adams" et al -- tamarisk, 12:01:31 12/03/02 Tue

Entering into the R2D2 fray concerning the Connie-Lilith posts on Pat Robertson. I wonder if Connie would accept as acceptable, a report from her god and bible, the Freerepublic.

http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3782fe4775af.htm

Robertson is a hissing snake, speaking with a forked tongue.

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For Rt. Rev. FOWLER's SNOW JOB.......click link below -- Sola Scriptura, 07:12:42 12/03/02 Tue

FOR A FALSE RELIGIONIST'S "WORD OF FAITH" SNOW JOB CLICK HERE:

http://www.boards.revealedtruthmin.org/

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[> Re: For Rt. Rev. FOWLER's SNOW JOB.......click link below -- tamarisk, 07:46:44 12/03/02 Tue

It's "snow job," I seepose. Just peeked in there. The snowflakes coming through the flames with the hand reaching out of the mailbox makes in interesting visual.

Thoughts went to A Charlie Brown Christmas and Lucy stating she never eats "unripe, December snowflakes." Snow"flakes" seems entirely appropriate for that site. ;)

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Sola, "Ed Adams" et al -- tamarisk, 09:48:27 12/02/02 Mon

From the friendly confines, again, of R1D2:

Timbuctoo
In Response To Gerry
Monday December 2, 2002 at 11:29

Ref: "I don't argue with God about anything. He is still in command of my life." . . . Then I trust we will see no more complaints here about your having to do your laundry . . . or that your Bible study was a flop . . .

I've discovered one of the great joys in my life, is doing laundry. I used to do it here but I now lug everything a few blocks away to the laundromat. There, I can interact with people. The JW's come in often to drop of Watchtower literature. Have had some intersting conversations with them. Religion and politics are always interesting subjects.

I have been conducting nightly bible study for over a month now. Sometimes, there is only one or two others in the group. It is never a flop because I have learned greatly by teaching the Word of Truth. This only serves to make me more effective and confident in preaching the Word.

Since I left my job at the loco public "fool," I have found great inner peace. Often times, a better paying job with benefits is not the best thing to have. This is the second time in my life I have left the "fool" system. It is also the second time I came to understand truth is more important than the political correctness of the system. Run, don't walk to the nearest "foolhouse" exit.

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[> Re: Sola, "Ed Adams" or "Adam Edwards" or "Edwardo Armando" et al -- Sola Scriptura, 21:55:08 12/02/02 Mon


"So shall My word be which goes forth from My mouth; it shall not return to Me empty, without accomplishing what I desire, and without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it" (Isaiah 55:11).

"So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ" (Rom. 10:17)

"For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart" (Heb. 4:12).

Rom. 1:16, "For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek." What is the Gospel? 1 Cor. 15:1-4 says it is the sacrificial death and physical resurrection of Jesus for sins. It is the powerful message of salvation to sinners. If you know that the Word of God will accomplish what God wants it to and if you know that the gospel has power to save, then it should ease our mind to know that in witnessing you are using two very powerful weapons: God's Word and God's Gospel. The Word of God is the Bible. The Gospel of God is His revelation or redemption. Amen.

Re: Laundry. We have Maytag washer and dryer that are about 30 years old (maybe more? Mr Sola bought them as a bachelor). They have been well maintained and look great! Had to replace the belt on one of the motors one time ten years ago, but they ARE like what the old commercials say, they just keep on working. Amazing. Not like the new appliances. Repair man said new Maytags were bought by another company. Plus our's don’t have any of the fancy new electronics, which helps. I think they program electronics to blow out the day after the one year coverave expires. Shoot, we have gone through several dishwashers, alone in ten years….let's see there was.....Juanita,.... Maria, Consuelo…..LOL! Just kidding! Me bad. We have a Bosch and I HATE it! Quiet, yes. Hard to load and we do two or three loads a day. Mr Sola is the dish loader in the family. Bless his sweet heart. I’m so blessed. They broke the mold after he was made.

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Sola -- tamarisk, 11:58:36 12/02/02 Mon

An oldie but a goodie.

I asked God to take away my habit.
God said, No.
It is not for me to take away, but for you to give it up.

I asked God to make my handicapped child whole.
God said, No.
His spirit is whole, his body is only temporary

I asked God to grant me patience.
God said, No.
Patience is a byproduct of tribulations;
it isn't granted, it is learned.

I asked God to give me happiness.
God said, No.
I give you blessings; Happiness is up to you.

I asked God to spare me pain.
God said, No.
Suffering draws you apart from worldly cares
and brings you closer to me.

I asked God to make my spirit grow.
God said, No.
You must grow on your own! ,
but I will prune you to make you fruitful.

I asked God for all things that I might enjoy life.
God said, No.
I will give you life, so that you may enjoy all things.

I ask God to help me LOVE others, as much as He loves me.
God said...Ahhhh, finally you have the idea.

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Sola, "Ed Adams" et al -- tamarisk, 08:25:54 12/02/02 Mon

~Margaret~
In Response To Sim2
Monday December 2, 2002 at 1:04
We "SEE" that, but we also "SEE" that God is taking on "THREE DIFFERENT FORMS" in order to complete the plan of Salvation.
You and I are extremely close, here. We would see the same, if I could shake you loose of requiring the number three. i.e. Show me the three forms of Jesus, "who was, is, and is to come"? Why must you insist upon three forms? The Father is a Spirit having no form. The Holy Spirit is Spirit without form. The notion of three, and of forms, never was Jewish!!! it was Catholic!!!

Hummmm! As I read Isaiah 42, I have to wonder whether Mags knows anything about the Jewishness of the faith.

Isa 42:1-8
1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.
3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.
4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.
5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.
8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.(KJV)

Who Mags, is talking here about whom? There is no doubt, reading from the Talmud or the Rabbinical Midrashim, this is a prophesy of Mechiach. Later Rabbi's applied it to the Nation Israel, but this prophesy is PERSONAL and NOT NATIONAL.

Maybe this is your problem as you ascribe Salvation in a National sense (Apostolic Denominationalism), rather than Personal (requiring Believer's Baptism).
Consider the words "servant...mine elect." The Hebrew her is chiyriy and actually means--one chosen or set apart for a definate purpose. So, we have here, Yud Hah Vav Hah--the very name of Abba G_d in the Hebrew--having CHOSEN Y'shua, His Son, for a very definate purpose. Ruach, in the Hebrew means spirit. The full name and title is Ruach HaKodesh--the Third Person in the Trinity; The Holy Spirit of G_d--having another purpose and ministry in G_d's eternal plan for man.

Strongs--ruach (roo'-akh);
a primitive root; properly, to blow, i.e. breathe; only (literally) to smell or (by implication, perceive (figuratively, to anticipate, enjoy):
KJV-- accept, smell, X touch, make of quick understanding.

Upon reading the phrase "make of quick understanding," it amuzes me how slow many, calling themselves Christians, are in their understanding. Instead of holding fast to Biblical Truth, as taught by the teacher of truth, they want to hold on to their nonsense and their idols.
For you, Mags, not to believe the Trinity is a Jewish teaching, is NOT to believe in Gentile salvation. Again, in your hatred of Jews, you fail to understand Israel, as G_d's chosen people, is NOT AN end. Israel is the MEANS to THE END. THE END is the Salvation of the Nations by the coming of their personal Mechiach and Savior.

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PFAKE's "Anointing" Exceeded Their "100.000 Mile Coverage" It Appears -- LOL!, 13:57:16 12/01/02 Sun


”Anointed Ministers

Available to Preach

at YOUR CHURCH"

........"Dr. Michael Kear, Word of Faith Revivalist"

"Dr. Michael Kear is the founding Bishop of Pentecostal Faith Assemblies, Inc."

"Brother Kear preaches the Word of Faith (Romans 10:8, 17).

We believe that Jesus Christ saves,
heals and delivers anyone who will approach Him in Faith.”

.............Is datso?...............hummmmm. OKay.

Why did “Rev. Jack Howell” have pneumonia since mid September and still complain of a “temperature” (fever) as recently as last week? Hmmmmmm? there, 'ol “anointed” assembly of heretics???? 'splain dat Rickey. We are all ears.

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[> PFAKE's "Anointing" Needs A Ned DISGRONTIFICATOR! -- Sola, 18:48:58 12/01/02 Sun

Thar's a whole lotta anointin' goin on in them thar Hokaloma Hills. According to Ken Copeland who is recommended by Mike Kear, the man who “ordained” the already “anointed” Jack Howell:

Jack needs to: "Pray to yourself, because I'm in your self and you're in My self. We are one Spirit, saith the Lord." (Kenneth Copeland, "Believer's Voice of Victory", Feb. 1987, p.9)

Since Jack posts as other people and compliments himself as invisible people; why not pray to himself as well?

Copeland: "I say this with all respect so that it don't upset you too bad, but I say it anyway. When I read in the Bible where he [Jesus] says, 'I Am,' I just smile and say, 'Yes, I Am, too!'" (Kenneth Copeland, "Believer's Voice of Victory" broadcast on TBN, recorded 7/9/87)

Copeland: "God is the biggest failure in the Bible...the reason you've never thought that is because He never said He was one".(Kenneth Copeland, "Praise-a-thon", broadcast on TBN, recorded 1988)

Prolly all his “negative confession.” Ya think?

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Sola -- tamarisk, 12:48:27 11/30/02 Sat

Was reading the GellyB--Minder exchange on R1D2, concerning ownership of His Church. I offer these verses:

Col 1:15-20
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
(KJV)

The message here is positional. Y'shua was the first-born, NOT the first-created. First-born signifies priority in time. He us NOT a creature, but Creator. Also, this speaks of being recognized as the Mechiach.(Psalm 89:27). So, these 3 positions tell the story:

1. IN Him, sovereign source;
2. BY Him, divine agent;
3. UNTO Him, forHis use and for His glory.

He alone directs, controls, guides, and governs the church. The church is His body; He is its source and its life. He has first place all to Himself, for He IS in a class by Himself. He is eminent above all others. IT is not enough for Y'shua to be present, nor prominent; He must be pre-eminent. Why(Mags)? Because it pleases Abba G_d.

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"Rev."Jack Howell - Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, AND the cup of devils!!! -- Sola Scriptura, 10:33:21 11/30/02 Sat

Greetings TAMARISK!

>>> "WRT: "He has also sent men of God who did not know what was going on, to give me words of encouragement! Please keep me and this ministry in your prayers as we minister the Word of God without compromise or partiality!"

~~~~~~~ TAMERISK COMMENTS: "Maybe Satan Claus will bring him a back scratcher, instead. Then, possibly, spiritual fools will discern, they are doing nothing more than feeding his prideful spirit." Wonderful Comment!!!!! Perfect!

Yule like this from Rt. Rev. Serpent Egg’s page:

"24 days, 15 hours & 37 minutes until Christmas!"
Counting his apostate roman catholic tradition of man to the nanosecond, we see.

The Lord's commandment to Christians to 'be ye separate' has not been heeded in regards to the near religious observance of Christmas.

Tradition that which Jack Eschews with his mouth, and runs to with his feet, and celebrates in his mind and soul!
Sometimes tradition is acceptable and perhaps even pleasing in the sight of God, as he has commanded.

Sometimes it is not acceptable and is hated by Him. The evil of traditions that transgress the commandment of Jesus was a key, teaching that which the Messiah taught on is the way.

Jesus answered and said to them, "Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition?

Thou shalt have no other Gods.

Surely this is what is taking place with the tradition of Christmas

This was an example of how the scribes and Pharisees like Jack Howell in his flowing purple garb forsook the commandment of God in favor of their tradition.
Christmas is transgressing the commandment of God in favor of the very tradition that Jack verbally (and hypocritically!) rails about!

What does God think about this?

KJV Bible. Matthew 15:7-9 7 [Ye] hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, 8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with [their] lips; but their heart is far from me. 9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men.

Christmas is honoring with the lips but their heart is in materialism and falsehood It is VAIN! Clearly, doctrines and commandments of men is vain worship.
God never commanded it!

There is not a single scripture in the bible that tells us that we are to celebrate the birth of the Messiah.
Let alone in a pagan way! Counting down the days, hours and minutes, indeed illustrates much about Jack Howell’s false teachings.

http://www.boards.revealedtruthmin.org/

So yes, we must question these traditions that have been handed down to this generation even though few dare to.
Many Christians speak against the Catholic traditions of Lent, Ash Wednesday, etc. indeed Jack Howell in his typical “hypo*critter*plagiarizer*mode” had the nerve to speak against the Roman church, but he completely fails to recognize that the same types of pagan teachings and festivals exist in the celebration of Christmas!

It may be noted by Christians that Jack Howell is not known for being discerning. But how did these festivals get their start?

The following is a quote from the Encyclopedia Brittanica, Volume 11 ; page 390.

"During the later periods of Roman history, sun worship gained in importance and ultimately led to what has been called a 'solar monotheism.' Nearly all the gods of the period were possessed of Solar qualities, and both Christ and Mithra acquired the traits of solar seities.

The feast of Sol and Victus (open unconquered Sun) on December 25th was celebrated with great joy, and eventually this date was taken over by the Christians as Christmas, the birthday of Christ." !!

In an effort to get more converts they adapted a pagan holiday to their worship to appease the pagans in 336 AD
Now I ask..."WHO CONVERTED WHO???"

Do we murder to bring a murderer to God? Seems Jack has spoken against murder recently but he fails to make any connection here.

Do we rape to bring a rapist to God?

Well, the mainstream beliefs were far from the truth the apostles taught anyway.. But still...it was the pagans that taught the Christians this custom. We ought to be teaching them by example the truth about the pagan holidays.!

Christmas means 'mass for Christ'. Jack spoke in his stolen article against Mass, yet he, himself is counting the days until HIS celebration of same!

The customs associated with Christmas, in one form or another, have been celebrated for thousands of years. 'Christmas' is just a new name for an old pagan holiday.

There is no doubt that the customs that are associated with Christmas are of pagan origin.

One must only look to an encyclopedia for their origins or even the local newspaper in December to find this truth of merchandising and debt which is bondage. The issue is whether or not we should walk in these customs.

So what is so bad about it? Truly, there is no commandment telling us to celebrate Christ’s birth related to some fat guy dressed in red and white, linked to spending large sums of money that most can not afford or go in dept. for.

Maybe the image of some rotund guy in a white wig and red velvet pajamas with fur trim, and leather boots appeals to Jack. Don’t ask. LOL!

In fact, the pagan customs are clearly condemned in the scriptures. But when has scripture ever stood in the way of Jack Howell’s teachings? Women bishops and heads of churches is a prime example of his bucking the teachings of God for his traditions of man.

Paganism is something that is against Gods commandments.
If we know that the roots of Christmas are of pagan origin, should we follow paganism ? or shouldn't the roots of our worship be in the scriptures, rather than paganism? Good question for PFAKES at PFAI.

December 25th is the birthday of nearly every pagan god ever invented!

The very name of the tradition of Easter comes from the pagan Astarte.

To the point.
Consider the scriptures that clearly proclaim that the keeping up of these festivals is sinful.
Checking on the origins of these festivals will reveal the truth of paganism.

God’s people always seek the truth. Is “Bishop” one of the elect? Consider these scriptures:

Jeremiah 10:1-5 1 HEAR ye the word which the LORD speaketh unto you, O house of Israel:

2 Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.

3 For the customs of the people [are] vain: for [one] cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.

4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.

5 They [are] upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also [is it] in them to do good.”

First of all, God is telling us in this verse "Do not learn the way of the Gentiles" Don't even learn it, let alone practice it!

The Gentiles were dismayed at the signs of heaven. When the sun began to go further away from the earth and the days grew shorter in the winter, the sun worshipping Gentiles feared that the sun would not return. So they held certain festivals around the time of the Winter Solstice when it did begin to return. One of the customs was to decorate a tree that they had cut down and fasten it so that would not topple.

God tells us not to learn the way of the heathen. And here He even describes a custom that is a way of the heathen. Yet, we see this same custom exist even today which is called the Christmas tree.

Have you ever wondered why in the world someone would do something as strange as cut down a tree and put it in their house and then decorate it with all different types of ornaments?

Not only is it odd, it is pagan. This custom, along with other pagan customs like it are clearly condemned in this passage.

We don't need a prophet to come and tell us today that this custom is wrong. Here is Jeremiah telling us right now!

This custom, along with other pagan customs like it are clearly condemned in this passage. Other pagan customs include Mistletoe, the yule log and Santa Claus. (sorry Jack. Bummer.)

Santa Claus is a god to the children of the world. (sorry Jack. Bommer.)

Or as some say 'Father Christmas' The parents purposely lie to the children and tell them that they should fear Santa Claus because "he knows if you've been bad or good". If they have been bad, they won't get all these worldly gifts. This must be a Willa S. and Wayne S. thang that goes deeper than we may know. Ya think??! snort.

This is clearly a total abomination to God! To make a lie.
You don't have to look very far in the word of God to find out how much He loathes idolatry.

God is the only true Mighty One.

How abominable for a believer to teach their children to idolize or fear Santa Claus and creep in an idol into the conscience of a child! Get right with God, Jack!

It is sinful in the eyes of God to practice these traditions. It is also a sin to take these traditions of the pagans and apply them to the worship of God.

KJV Deuteronomy 12:29-31

“29 When the LORD thy God shall cut off the nations from before thee, whither thou goest to possess them, and thou succeedest them, and dwellest in their land;

30 Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou enquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise.

31 Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods. 32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.”

Very CLEAR. At least to the elect.

"Thou shalt not do so unto God " He loathes their traditions!

Jeremiah 5:19 19” And it shall come to pass, when ye shall say, Wherefore doeth the LORD our God all these [things] unto us? then shalt thou answer them, Like as ye have forsaken me, and served strange gods in your land, so shall ye serve strangers in a land [that is] not yours.”

So it is abundantly clear.

Do not worship God in a pagan way!

Do not add to His commandments and do not take away from His commandments.

Christmas takes pagan festivals and traditions and apply them to the worship of God.

Answer this question with honesty. We have proven time and time again that Rt. Rev. Serpent Egg has NO INTEGRITY, honesty, or credibility with discerning Bible Believing Christians. This has been an affront to Jack’s demons. So be it!

Would it be right to take a Satanic holiday that Satanists have invented and then apply that holiday to Gods worship?
All paganism is Satanism. Satan is behind all pagan worship. Satan is the one guiding Jack.

And whatever god the pagans worship, seemingly little does he know he is worshipping Satan.

1 Corinthians 10:19-21

“19 What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing?

20 But I [say], that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils. 21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.”

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Sola -- tamarisk, 09:06:01 11/29/02 Fri

WRT:--
from Mike Kear Ministries:

A Prayer for Salvation

Heavenly Father, I come to You in the Name of Jesus. Your Word says, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved" (Acts 2:21 NRSV). I am calling on You. I repent of (turn away from) my sins. I believe that the blood of Jesus washes me clean. I believe that Jesus loves me. I pray and ask Jesus to come into my heart and be Lord over my life according to Romans 10:9-10. "If you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." I do that now. I confess that Jesus is Lord, and I believe in my heart that God raised Him from the dead.

I am now reborn! I am a Christian - a child of Almighty God! I am saved! You also said in Your Word, "If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!" (Luke 11:13 NRSV). I'm also asking You to fill me continually with the Holy Spirit. Thank you! In Jesus' Name, Amen!

If you prayed this prayer, please email us by clicking here so we can rejoice with you!
Michael Kear Ministries
___________________________________________________________

Ya know, it sounds good. However, knowing who he links to in other ministries. Does Kenneth and Gloria Copeland, Oral Roberts, Benny Hinn, et al, believe this only. Salvation is by Grace Alone, THROUGH Faith Alone, UNTO Repentance, IN the Mighty, Blessed Name of HaShem Y'shua, HaMechiach. Luther may have added the ALONE but it is necessary to counter the heresies of Pentecostalism, in it's various stages of history. Acts 2:21 is a message Promise Keepers uses to attempt to tear down the wall of separation. Once you tear down the wall of separation, then, you have a way into the Church to espouse all manner of false and wrong doctrines. Doctrine divides!

The popular, pragmatic preachers of today like to lift up their works to people. This is what has "caused" their ministries to grow. We are not too long from seeing someone being raised from the dead, on TV, by one of these popular, Word of Faith/Name it and Claim it, preachers.

I Jn 4:1-3
1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
(KJV)

5578 pseudoprophetes (psyoo-dop-rof-ay'-tace);

from 5571 and 4396; a spurious prophet, i.e. pretended foreteller or religious impostor:

KJV-- false prophet.

A message for the Rt Rev Fowler and his minions. Hosea 9: gives 5 reasons why the Nation Israel was prohibited from rejoicing:
1. Because of her gross immorality,
2. Because of her coming captivity,
3. Because of her spritual insensitivity,
4. Because of her sterility; and
5. Because of her coming exile

While the "watchmen" of the Word of Faith Movement are whoopin,' hollerin,' and dancin' their way through their perverse teachings, leading AmeriKa to the path of destruction, they should remember the purpose of a watchman. G_d had intended Israel to be a watchman WITH G_d, that is, to be in fellowship WITH Him and to experience His blessings. But these "watchmen" became "a snare of a fowler," to AmeriKa. There are those in the institution called the Church of Today which have become a snare to the nations of the world. Instead of loving G_d and walking in His ways, they hated Him and departed from His way.

3352 yaqowsh (yaw-koshe');

from 3369; properly, entangling; hence, a snarer: -fowler.

BINO(s)(Baptists In Name Only), those departed from historic Baptist faith and beliefs, have gone astray, becoming fowlers to G_d's sheep.

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[> Tamarisk, ACNR & The Saints - A Little Night Music -- Sola, 19:53:02 11/29/02 Fri

Ministry Under Attack!

It is unfortunate, but it does happen from time to time, that spiritually ignorant and blind modern day Pharisees see fit to attack me and the ministry God has called me to. I am not surprised, for when the Lord first called me into this ministry, He told me that I would come under attack from false brethren masquerading as Christians. He also told me that I would come under attack from fellow Christians who have been blinded spiritually by Satan. The Lord's words to me have certainly come true in the last few months! He has also sent men of God who did not know what was going on, to give me words of encouragement! Please keep me and this ministry in your prayers as we minister the Word of God without compromise or partiality!
Rev. Jack Howell
Bishop,
Pentecostal Faith Assenblies Inc./Revealed Truth Ministries "

LOL!

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[> [> Re: Tamarisk, ACNR & The Saints - A Little Night Music -- tamarisk, 06:11:48 11/30/02 Sat

WRT: "He has also sent men of God who did not know what was going on, to give me words of encouragement! Please keep me and this ministry in your prayers as we minister the Word of God without compromise or partiality!"

Maybe Satan Claus will bring him a back scratcher, instead. Then, possibly, spiritual fools will discern, they are doing nothing more than feeding his prideful spirit.

The Rt Rev Fowler should entertain the fact, it could be a demon "speaking" to him and NOT the Lord. It does seem a common thread of Pentecostalism and many of their adherents. G_d's Grace and good works which honor Him alone, as truthfully told by His blessed Apostles in His Written Word, The Bible, IS sufficient.

Retreaded Pentecostalism reminds me of retreaded truck tires, peeling off on the highway.

Compromise?? That was already addressed months ago in response to his testimony.

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Rt. Rev. Whoopie Cushion is a Very Confused and Wicked Shepherd -- Sola Scriptura, 18:26:46 11/29/02 Fri

You’all will get a kick out of this link from Jack’s page. “Stations of the Cross in the Texas Hill Country” Below are some direct quotes from the site Jack advances. (The same Rt. Rev. Whoopee Cushion that plagiarized an article recently about ‘Ninety-Sum-Odd Thangies I Don’t like about RCC.’ He C&P’d the article all over the net.) Evidently the RCC “traditions of man” which Jack frequently is a hippy-critter about, does not in Jack’s mind include the RCC tradition of “the stations of the cross” which are prayed on the rosary and are found decorating the walls in most RC churches.


The following Laodicean, ecumenical moment is brought to you by:


http://www.boards.revealedtruthmin.org/


”Stations of the Cross - Stations of the Cross, an all-denominations outdoor walking devotional activity representing the final events in the life of Jesus….


Bring the kids? You betcha!! We Invite You To "Walk In His Steps"
The "Stations of the Cross" is an outdoor devotional activity jointly sponsored by St. Mark's Episcopal Church, First Baptist Church, First United Methodist Church, and First Christian Church of San Marcos, Texas. These churches are pleased to host this old and popular devotion representing the final events in the life of Jesus. Many Christians have wished to walk where Christ walked the week of his passion. With the hard work and dedication of these four congregations comes the incredible recreation of the path to a hill from which Jesus seems to have known he would never return and yet, return always.

The walk takes anywhere from 45 minutes to an hour and a half. Caution: While the paths are wide enough to accommodate a wheelchair, buddy seat, or golf cart, if you can bring one, the ground is often soft and sometimes bumpy, and there are a couple of grades. It may be a good idea to have someone come with you. If you need help we will do our best. We also have a limited ability to furnish interpreters for hearing-impaired visitors; please call ahead, 392-3377.” (emphasis in the original)

“Bathroom facilities are available between Stations 8 and 9, and limited water between Stations 7 and 8. (Did they have these at Calvary?)
History of "Stations of the Cross" (read Rome!)

Since the time of Constantine in 313 AD, many Christians have thronged to Jerusalem to follow in Christ's path, but for the majority of those crowds and pilgrims, that journey has been an unrealized dream. The "Stations of the Cross" represent fourteen events in Jesus' life, from the time he was condemned by Pilate to when Joseph and Nicodemus placed him in a tomb.

In the Middle Ages, churches began to build chapels to commemorate an event in the passion of Jesus. In the fifteenth century, the Franciscans developed the devotions that have come to be called the "Stations of the Cross." The word "station" (statio) implies either "standing still" or "a gathering place." The devotions took place out of doors, usually along a roadside where a cross or some other objects reminiscent of an event in Jesus' passion had been erected.

By the seventeenth century, stations began to be placed in churches, normally arranged at intervals around the walls and marked by a simple cross. At first, the number of stations varied considerably, but was finally fixed at fourteen by the Catholic Pope, Clement XII. Nine of the stations commemorate events from early Christian tradition.

In general
The devotions can be either public or private. Prayers are said at each station and a short meditation on the scene from the passion is read. When it is public and taking the form of a service, a verse from the hymn Stabat Mater ("At the Cross Her Station Keeping") or some other suitable song is sung between each of the stations.

There is no right or wrong way to participate in the service that will take place at "The Station of the Cross; A Hill Country Meditation." A contemplative attitude opens the heart to the personal meaning of the devotions. Do not, however, be afraid to touch or handle any of the props that are provided along this walk. Anything is appropriate that truly helps you to take in this mystery of "Love so amazing, so divine."”

I wanted to fe-e-e-e-e-el the ecumenical moment.

If I get locked into the lotus position, will someone please be kind enough to get me untangled, or un-lock me before the dinner gong gongs?

O-o-o-o-o-o-o-m-m-m-m-m-m-m-m-m.

Love is not an emotion. It is not broadmindedness. It is not non-judgmentalism. It is not non-critical acceptance. Biblical love is careful. It is based on knowledge and judgment from God's Word. It proves all things, and it approves only those things that are the will of God.

Was the Lord Jesus Christ unloving when He called Peter a devil (Matt. 16:23) or when he publicly condemned the Pharisees (Matthew 23)? Was the Apostle Paul unloving when he rebuked Peter publicly for his compromise (Galatians 1)? Was the Apostle Paul unloving when he named the name of false teachers and compromisers such as Hymenaeus and Alexander ten different times in the Pastoral Epistles? Was the Apostle Paul unloving when he forbade women to preach or to usurp authority over men (1 Timothy 2)?

Ecumenists point their fingers at the Bible-believing fundamentalist and charge him with a lack of love toward men because he exercises judgment and discipline and separation. What, though, about love for God? The Ecumenist tells me that I need to love all the denominations regardless of what doctrine they teach. I reply that I need to love God and His Truth first, and that means that I will obey the Bible, and that means I will measure, mark, and avoid those who are committed to error. A genuine love for God requires that I care more about His Word and His will than about men and their feelings and opinions and programs.

THE DIRECTION OF LOVE NOT ONLY MUST BE TOWARD GOD BUT IT MUST BE TOWARD THOSE WHO ARE IN DANGER. The ecumenical crowd tells me that I need to love the Modernist and the Romanist, etc., but they are practically silent on the subject of love for those who are deceived by the Modernists and the Romanists. We are charged with being unloving, for example, when we expose the fact that John Paul II or Mother Teresa teaches a false sacramental gospel. This is nonsense. The fact is that we love people enough to warn of false gospels so they will not be led astray to eternal hell. A shepherd who loves wolves more than the sheep is a confused and wicked shepherd.

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[> Re: Rt. Rev. Whoopie Cushion is a Very Confused and Wicked Shepherd -- tamarisk, 06:01:07 11/30/02 Sat

I remember a picture, some years ago, of the elderly secretary to Lady Bird Johnson. Her name escapes me at this time. She and her "coven" were shown out in the Texas hill country, in a circle, howling to the full moon. Things like these come to mind when I see the Neo-Evangelicalism of people like the Rt Rev Fowler.

"”Stations of the Cross - Stations of the Cross, an all-denominations outdoor walking devotional activity representing the final events in the life of Jesus….

Bring the kids? You betcha!! We Invite You To "Walk In His Steps"
The "Stations of the Cross" is an outdoor devotional activity jointly sponsored by St. Mark's Episcopal Church, First Baptist Church, First United Methodist Church, and First Christian Church of San Marcos, Texas. These churches are pleased to host this old and popular devotion representing the final events in the life of Jesus. Many Christians have wished to walk where Christ walked the week of his passion. With the hard work and dedication of these four congregations comes the incredible recreation of the path to a hill from which Jesus seems to have known he would never return and yet, return always."

I can go a few blocks from mi casa, to Our Lady of the Lake RCC. They have an "outdoor devotional" set up where Romanist adherents can pray the Rosary at each station. The stations have names and candles set up so you can get you "good works" in for the day.

"Bring the kids??" If the Fowler was a real Baptist, he'd understand this is child abuse. And here I thought the strong message of the Prophets in the Tanakh, is an exhortation to tear down those alters and shrines in high places.

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OH NO!!!! HOW WILL WE GET THROUGH THE DAY NOW? -- Sola Scriptura FOCL&L&L, 19:58:00 11/28/02 Thu


~~~ DOES ANYONE ELSE SEE THE FOLLY AND HUMOR OF JACK HOWELL PLACING THIS SITE ON "PRIVATE PASSWORD" MODE? LOOK WHO USES IT! I BURSTED OUT LAUGHING!!!!!!!!!!! TALK ABOUT STOOPID PET TRICKS. FOCL

....the numerals after each post reflect the number of VISIBLE persons, (besides Jack), who were not a Fig Newton of Rt. Rev.’s mind, who found his post worthy of their time.

"- Rev. Jack Howell 04:47:18 11/27/02 (0)
- Rev. Jack Howell 08:41:36 11/25/02 (0)
- Rev. Jack Howell 11:14:53 11/24/02 (LNK) (0)
-Rev. Jack Howell 13:44:59 11/23/02 (0)
- Rev. Jack Howell 09:12:59 11/23/02 (LNK) (0)
- Rev. Jack Howell 22:18:37 11/19/02 (LNK) (0)
- Rev. Jack Howell 15:04:48 10/16/02 (0)
- Rev. Jack Howell 15:53:48 10/15/02 (0)
- Rev. Jack Howell 02:42:02 10/13/02 (0)
- Rev. Jack Howell 00:57:38 10/14/02 (0)
- Rev. Jack Howell 13:16:15 10/03/02 (LNK) (0)
- Rev. Jack Howell 09:40:24 10/02/02 (0)
- Rev. Jack Howell 01:26:00 10/06/02 (0)
- Rev. Jack Howell 01:39:00 10/06/02 (0)
- Rev. Jack Howell 01:42:49 10/06/02 (0)
- Rev. Jack Howell 06:14:21 10/02/02 (0)
- Rev. Jack Howell 07:40:41 10/01/02 (0)
- Rev. Jack Howell 12:31:11 09/28/02 (0)
- Rev. Jack Howell 03:19:57 09/29/02 (0)
- Rev. Jack Howell 06:04:19 09/29/02 (o)
- Rev. Jack Howell 07:05:07 09/29/02 (0)
- Rev. Jack Howell 08:11:01 09/26/02 (LNK) (0)
- Rev. Jack Howell 13:55:44 09/26/02 (0)
- Rev. Jack Howell 13:48:04 09/26/02 (0)
- Rev. Jack Howell 13:41:07 09/26/02 (0)
"

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[> OH NO!!!! HOW WILL WE GET THROUGH THE DAY NOW? -- Bar The Gates Hanna, Here Come The Invisible Posters @Jack's, 20:10:04 11/28/02 Thu

..............now watch all of the Rt. Rev.'s invisible "lurker friends of Jack's" who just coincidently happen to be spelling-challenged on the exact same words as Jack, will pop out of the woodwork like termites and begin chatting it up at his site! Funny! I especially like it when he gives his invisible posters an initial designating their supposed last name. Or, when Jack starts complimenting himself as he dishonestly pretends to be his own “friends.” LOL What a screwball!

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[> [> Re: OH NO!!!! HOW WILL WE GET THROUGH THE DAY NOW? -- "lurker friend of 'Ed Adams'", 21:11:30 11/28/02 Thu

LOL What a screwball! is right!

"Summary of Group Access Privileges for this forum:
Group Privileges Application Procedures
Heresy Hunters Exposed Post Requires approval by Group Owner and validated email

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[> [> [> Re: OH NO!!!! HOW WILL WE GET THROUGH THE DAY NOW? -- Booda, 21:18:16 11/28/02 Thu

........ever see a dog with a bone? Poor dog thinks someone wants his bone. snort. Twilight Zone music fade in....doo do doo do....doo do doo do...

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Anymouse -- tamarisk, 18:25:08 11/28/02 Thu

WRT:

Subject: Mike Kears Links
To: tamariskisme@yahoo.com
From: "Anonymous"
Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 02:52 -0800


Instead of attempting to make a big deal (which it is not) out of Mike
Kear changing the links on his home page, why don't you simply email
him and ask HIM why he changed them? He has an email link on his web page
so people can email him. Why not use it? That is the PROPER and
HONORABLE action to take, instead of trying to make it sound "sinister" in
your post. The last time I checked, owners of web pages are allowed to
change links any time they choose without anyone's permission! Sounds to
me like you need to get a life! Better yet, get JESUS in your life!

Again, BINO(Baptist In Name Only) is the key work here. I guess it was "honorable" when Sola emailed "Pastor Scottie" only to find his real name being used in postings at the PFAKE sight. It does seem:

1 Cor 6:9-11
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
(KJV)

Theives never win.

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[> Re: Anymouse -- Sola Scriptura, 18:56:56 11/28/02 Thu

Gotta love those "Anonymous" bandits chastising others about “honor” as if it were something they ever had an intimate relationship with in their entire lives!

Sola has dealt with PFAI and learned from personal experience that there is NO HONOR among the PFAKES at PFAI. Theirs is a “for show” game of situational ethics. You see, folks, it was considered "honorable" in PFAKE's play book when Sola personally called and spoke to Pastor Scottie and “honorably” confided her personal information to the “honorable” “minister.” Sola requested that the minister “HONOR” her privacy and “HONOR” the confidentially of the conversation. It was NOT IMPLIED, NOT SUGGESTED, and NOT A VEILED. She requested specific privacy from the “honorable” “minister.” Sola was chagrined to learn that this information (which was specifically requested to remain private) was broadcasted and published on the www within 48-hours by way of the bedroom bishop, Jack Howell who everyone knows has no “honor.”.

There is no honor among the den of thieves at PFAKE!

SO - GO WRAGGLE YOUR LONG POINTED FINGERS IN THE MIRROR!

###################################################

ORIGINAL FACTUAL POST FOLLOWS

The following links and quotes that appeared on November 23rd, 2002, have suddenly and without explanation been erased from "Michael Kear Ministries’" recommended links page:

”Kenneth Copeland Ministries
One of the best resources on the web. You can be
enriched in the study area or you can watch videos or
listen to teaching on line.”

“Pentecostal Faith Assemblies, Inc.
An association of ministers under the leadership of
Bishop Jack Howell.

”Kenneth Hagin Ministries
One of my favorite places around (in cyberspace or in
real life!)

”E.W. Kenyon
Faith building books and tapes.

”Charles Capps Ministries
Good books and tapes from an Elder Statesman of the
"Faith Camp." The simplicity of illustration and depth
of truth in Bro. Capps' teaching is invaluable.

….One has to wonder why. After all, it has been just two days ago that Kear stated the following of Ken Copeland’s site: ” One of the best resources on the web. You can be enriched in the study area….”
Let’s look at some of this “enriching” flotsam Kear finds edifying.

Copeland insists "Satan _conquered_ Jesus on the Cross and took His spirit to the dark regions of hell" (emphasis in original).[71] Copeland's description of Christ's ordeal in hell is nothing short of chilling:

"He [Jesus] allowed the devil to drag Him into the depths of hell....He allowed Himself to come under Satan's control...every demon in hell came down on Him to annihilate Him....They tortured Him beyond anything anybody had ever conceived. For three days He suffered everything there is to suffer."[72]

The situation seemed hopeless, as Jesus' "emaciated, poured out, little, wormy spirit is down in the bottom of that thing; and the devil thinks he's got Him destroyed."[73]

However, Copeland explains that "Satan fell into the trap. He took Him [Jesus] into hell illegally. He carried Him in there [when] He did not sin."[74] God found the opening He needed:

"That Word of the living God went down into that pit of destruction and charged the spirit of Jesus with resurrection power! Suddenly His twisted, death-wracked spirit began to fill out and come back to life....Jesus was born again -- the firstborn from the dead the Word calls Him -- and He whipped the devil in his own backyard."[75

If Ken Copeland’s website was, in Bishop Kear’s words from only two days ago, “One of the BEST” why did Kear remove the best and re-work the page to reflect an entirely different group of links??? Discerning believers want to know.

Here’s what the “Kear Ministries” had to say about another heretic he was smitten with yesterday, but has suddenly fallen out of favor with Kear today:

”Kenneth Hagin Ministries
One of my favorite places around (in cyberspace or in real life!) ”

Let’s see if we understand this correctly; one day these folks are the “best links” and his “favorites” and he is high-fiveing them as his “BROTHERS” THEN, a couple of days later their references are deleted from his site all together as if they never existed.

IF Charles Capps’ books, tapes, and apostate teachings, for instance, WERE according to Kear ”…. (the) depth of truth in Bro. Capps' teaching is invaluable.” two days ago; why were they, yanked? Last week it was “Invaluable” “Brother Capps” Today, he’s expunged from existance!

The Bible doesn't call Jesus "an "emaciated, poured out, little, wormy spirit." The Bible uses words like:
Almighty, Alpha and Omega the Amen, (His) Anointed, the Arm of the Lord, the Author and Finisher of Our Faith, Beginning and End of the Creation of God, the Blessed and Only Potentate, the Bread of Life, the Bridegroom, the Bright and Morning Star, the Brightness of the Father's Glory, the Captain of the Lord's Host, the Captain of Salvation, the Chief Shepherd, the Chief Cornerstone, the Chiefest Among Ten Thousand, the Chosen of God, the Christ, Our Lord, the chosen of God, the Power of God, the Wisdom of God, the Son of God, Son of the Blessed, the Commander, the Cornerstone, Counsellor, the Day Star, the Deliverer, the Desire of All Nations, the Door, Emmanuel, the Everlasting Father, the Faithful and True, the Faithful Witness, the First and Last, (Beginning and End), the Foundation, the Gift of God, the Glory of Israel, God, God Blessed Forever, God Manifest in the Flesh, God of Israel, the Savior, God of the Whole Earth, God our Savior, God's Dear Son, God With Us, Good Master, Governor, Great Shepherd of the Sheep, Head of the Church, Heir of all Things, High Priest, Head of Every Man, Head of the Church, Head of the Corner, Holy Child Jesus, Holy One, Holy One of God, Holy One of Israel, Holy Thing, our Hope, the Horn of Salvation, the I Am, the Image of God, Jehovah, King of the Jews, Just One, King of Israel, King of Kings, Lord of Lords, King of Glory, King of Zion, King over All The Earth, the Lamb, the Lamb of God, the Lawgiver, the Life, the Light, Light Everlasting, the Light of the World, Light to the gentiles, Living Bread, Living Stone, Lion of the Tribe of Judah, Lord of All, Lord our Righteousness, Lord God Almighty, Lord from Heaven, Lord of Hosts, Lord, Mighty in Battle, Lord of the Dead and Living, Lord of the Sabbath, Lord Over All, Lord Christ, Lord Strong and Mighty, Lord Our Righteousness, Lord, Your Holy One, Lord, Your Redeemer, the Man of Sorrows, Master, the Mediator, the Messenger of the Covenant, Messiah, Messiah the Prince, Mighty God, Mighty one of Israel, the Mighty one of Jacob, the Minister of the Sanctuary, (Bright) Morning Star, Most Holy, Most Mighty,Only Begotten, Only Begotten of the Father, Only Begotten Son, Only Wise God, Our Savior, our Passover, Potentate, the Power of God, Physician, Precious Cornerstone, Priest, the Prince, Prince of Life, Prince of Peace, Prince of the Kings of the Earth, Prophet, our Propitiation, Rabbi, Rabboni, our Ransom, Redeemer, Resurrection and Life, our Redemption, the Righteous Branch, the Righteous Judge, the Righteous Servant, Rose of Sharon, Savior, Savior of the World, the Shepherd and Bishop of Souls, Chief Shepherd, the Good Shepherd, Great Shepherd, the Shepherd of Israel, Shiloh, Son of the Father, Son of God, Son of Man, Son of the Blessed, Son of the Highest, Son of David, Star, Sun of Righteousness, Teacher, True God, the True Vine, Truth, the Unspeakable Gift, Very Christ, the Vine , the Way, He Which Is, Which Was, Which Is To Come, the Wisdom of God, the Witness, Wonderful, the Word, the Word of God, the Word of Life
...to describe Jesus!
The only place you will hear Jesus called a wormy little emaciated spirit is in a Word of Faith or PFAKES and DAKES meeting somewhere. You won't find it in the Word of God!

REFERENCES: 71 Kenneth Copeland, _Holy Bible: Kenneth Copeland Reference Edition_ (Fort Worth: Kenneth Copeland Ministries, 1991), 129. 72 Copeland, "The Price of It All," 3. 73 Kenneth Copeland, _Believer's Voice of Victory_ (television program), TBN, 21 April 1991. 74 Copeland, _What Happened from the Cross to the Throne,_ side 2. 75 Copeland, "The Price of It All," 4-6.

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[> [> Re: Anymouse -- Sola Scriptura, 19:01:52 11/28/02 Thu

Notice Mike Kear and this brave "Anonymous" e-mailer did not renounce any of the horriffic blaspheme from Ken Copelans or challange my facts, they send an "Anonymous"
e-mail to one of my friends and state I am not honorable. That's terriffic! LOL!

Did I hit a raw nerve at PFAKE?

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[> [> [> Re: Anymouse -- tamarisk, 19:08:12 11/28/02 Thu

Of course, Rt Rev El Pavo is not going to "refute" someone like Kenneth and Gloria Copeland. Copeland's "church" has a membership numbering near 20,000. The honorable Rt Rev desires the PFAKE ministries to achieve like numbers. To the Rt Rev's and his cronies, it's all about money. Follow the money trail.

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[> [> [> [> Tamarisk -- Sola Sctiptura, 19:31:13 11/28/02 Thu

"The honorable Rt Rev desires the PFAKE ministries to achieve like numbers. To the Rt Rev's and his cronies, it's all about money. Follow the money trail."
He has in fact just recently equated his "blessings" and success with numbers. The end time "church" of the Anti-Christ will be HUGE! LOL!

Jack Howell, his bishop buds, and Third Wave harry tics claim superiority in an "anointing" which they state others do not possess. The anointing of God flows down the robe of Christ, and those who are truly joined to Him, in His Body, one spirit with him, partake of, and minister in, the anointing of the Son of God - simply because of their oneness with Christ, not in and of themselves.

What God wills and commands, receives his anointing. What man conceives, wills and does has NO anointing! Everything about the Rt Rev Whoopie Cushion is PFAKE as those from the counterfeit revival movement.

Anybody, therefore, who acts and wills and ministers and preaches that which is not expressly the doctrine and will of God as does Jack Howell, has no anointing of God except in his delusional mind!

Anyone who acts on his own behalf, as Rt Rev evidences daily, and works from his own emotions, as Rt Rev continues to do, out of his own will, his own desires and his own temporal powers, PROVES to discerning believers that he is out of line with the Head and not acting as a member of the Body.

He does not have the anointing of God upon what he says and does (however much he may claim it). The only power source he can tap into is that of another spirit, the spirit of the false christ, the Lucifer who is the "light-bearer" of false wisdom.

Nonetheless, such false teachers like Jackals CLAIM to have an anointing. They come and teach "in the Name of Christ". They even claim they ARE the Anointed! Since no-one is The Anointed except Jesus Christ the Son of God, to claim to be "The Anointed of God" is to reveal their identity as FALSE CHRISTS. Pure and simple!

Fear Not Their Threats!

They make weak minded cower in fear, teaching that they are The Anointed, and to disagree with their heresies is to court disaster and death!

If indeed he were EVER a true believer, he would be no more or less anointed than we are, as a fellow believer.

Secondly, if he continues in lying and preaching falsehood, not biblically sound doctrine, he is NOT anointed of God.

But if he is preaching and teaching in the Name of Christ, without His authority, outside of His will - then Rev. Jack Howell is the FALSE CHRISTS AND FALSE PROPHETS about which Jesus warned us!

False christs means "falsely anointed ones".
What better description could there be for those who exalt themselves to positions of leadership in the Body and take advantage of the flock, bleeding them of money, tying them up in laws, courts, and bondages, filling them with fears, teaching them to obey evil spirits...

"For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works". ”(2 Cor 11:13-15)

Jack Howell is not a servant of all, but lords of all - arrogant, men-serving, lovers of flattery, self-exalting, beyond correction, vainglorious and abusive to those underneath them.

These are a whole new breed of Nicolaitans, and the Lord HATES their deeds. He will bring jack to justice, and expose everything he has been plotting and planning.

But in the meanwhile, Jesus forewarns us to be on our guard against such false christs, and to understand that in the last days these people will arise, in order to deceive - if possible – even if he could, the very elect. (MT 24:24) But those Born of above can see the Rev Jack’s of this world and EXPOSE their schemes to the flock.

Do not bow the knee to these men! Do not give up your godly inheritance for their "mess of pottage", because no earthly thrill or power is worth giving up your hope of salvation.

"And this occurred because of false brethren secretly brought in (who came in by stealth to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage), to whom we did not yield submission even for an hour, that the truth of the gospel might continue with you." (Gal 2:4-5)

"Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house nor greet him; for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds"AMEN!!!. (2 John 9-11)

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Sola -- tamarisk, 19:04:33 11/28/02 Thu

Heresy Hunters Reviewed Here

Hank Hannegraaf
John McArthur
Dr. Joseph Chambers
Rt Rev El Pavo, Bishop

Oops! Prolly copywrited material. Me bad. lol!!

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Lilith -- tamarisk, 15:09:05 11/28/02 Thu

WRT--From R1D2

*Coinkydink
In Response To Stephen
Thursday November 28, 2002 at 15:04

I have to agree with you... Clinton was a bozo who abused women and his office, however GW is possibley the most dangerous man of this age... we could be in for the Armageddan anytime now because of his rash actions regarding Iraq... I wouldn't be surprised if he has a list of countries he plans on attacking "because they are evil"... Maybe he's the anti-christ.
Have a happy Thanksgiving anyway... we're having ours on Saturday with the family who couldn't be here today. Later today I'm making a steak dinner for my husband and we'll spend some quality time alone together. Yay!

"Clinton was a bozo who abused women and his office, however GW is possibley the most dangerous man of this age."

Just ask Paula Jonesgate, Kathrine Harrisgate, etc., not to mention Monicagate. Of course, as a liberal Demoncrat, you, likely, voted for Slick Willie twice.

Possibley? Well, possibly; NO! Quite likely, GWB IS the most dangerous man in AmeriKa. It is not likely he is THE anti-christ, but AN anti-christ. He has ties with the NWO types through his Scull and Bones membership. The Scull and Bones is a branch of the Blue Lodge of Freemasonry. King George has NEVER renounced his membership in that "secret society."

The great difference between Slick Willie and GWB is, GWB works under the cloak of darkness. Slick Willie, though those around him claim he is brilliant, has not the discernment of the historic Baptist faith he claims to have roots in. He is a fraudlent christian. Anyone who would call on the likes of Jesse Jackson, Tony Compolo, etc., after Monicagate, only wants to be popular and not concerned with biblical truth. Look up a copy of "How the Clinton Clergy Corrupted a President" by Moody Adams.

Mr. Clinton's "Baptist" roots started in the Southern Baptist Convention at Immanuel Baptist Church in Little Rock, Arkansas, under the guidance of Rev. Rex Horne. Both the SBC and Immanuel Baptist Church totally ignored any responsibility for carrying out the Bible's commands regarding discipline.

Then President Clinton sent a handwritten letter to his home church in Arkansas in which he requested the church's forgiveness. Rev. Horne said the President "expressed repentance for his actions, sadness for the consequence of his sin on his family, friends and church family and asked for forgiveness fro Immanuel." The pastor refused to enter a debate over disciplining Clinton. He merely says as a pastor he has "a responsibility to do what's right before the Lord and for our church."

Horne is correct about Clinton's sin being forgivable. They are. Praying for Clinton is appropriate. But Horne and the Immanuel Baptist Church have a G_d given responsibility to follow a clearly outlined plan for restoring members who have strayed. They have chosen to disobey this Biblica outline regarding a straying member. As long as Bill Clinton's church refuses to follow the Bible's clear instructions, they share in the guilt of every sin Bill Clinton commits.

So it goes, Lilith, with sin. Whether it be a Quaker, the Southern Baptist Convention, an Apostolic Pentecostal Church, etc. In Washington DC, the Clinton's attended Foundary United Methodist (Hillary's affiliation), which has NO public discipline process.

The call to the SBC to have the Immanuel Baptist Church discipline Clinton was voted down, as was for his support of fags.

All I can say, if you are in an SBC congregation; get out now! While there may be a few "conservative" congregations believing in the Bible Only, they are becoming scarce.

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Sola -- tamarisk, 08:39:18 11/28/02 Thu

WRT--"This person again reveals her vast ignorance of the workings of the Holy Ghost, and since she denies that He is for the Church today, that is not at all surprising, and this alone disqualifies and discredits her and her comments. However, let us proceed. Notice this comment: "PFAKE PFAI was erected on the shifting loam of false visions and flattering divinations ejaculated from the mouth of a false prophetess whose spirit was not tested according to the Scriptures." She speaks as though she herself was actually present at the revival meeting and witnessed it first-hand. How else can she claim so boldly and matter of factly that the prophet was not tested in accordance with the Word of God? The truth is that when a prophet speaks, his/her words are examined right then and there for the witness of the Spirit. When the Holy Ghost speaks through a person, genuine Believers will know that it is Him speaking, and not someone speaking from their flesh. "Sola" does not understand how the Holy Ghost operates, having never experienced Him in her life, herself. "Sola" does not understand that ministers are examining the prophet even as he/she speaks, and if God reveals that the prophet is not speaking His counsel, they will step in and stop the person from speaking."

"Also, it should be mentioned that the vision related to Dr. Mike by the prophetess of God is being fulfilled, and that in itself meets a scriptural test of a prophet according to Deuteronomy 18:22. PFAI is growing by leaps and bounds as God continues to draw affiliates into our fellowship from all across the country and even from other countries around the world. If I were "Sola," I would watch out, as I might just be trying to hinder a work of God and face His wrath for doing so, and I certainly would not want to find myelf in that position!"

"Next, notice how "Sola" plays "God" by putting words in His mouth which He did not utter: "Because of your false words and lying visions, I am against you, declares the Sovereign LORD. Thus you have PFAKE-PFAI the perpetration of a lie which was introduced by a seducing spirit. They will not belong to the council of my people or be listed in the records of the Lamb. PFAI follows seducing spirits." She denies the gift of prophecy and the office of prophet are for today, yet she pretends to be a prophet herself and pretends to speak the mind of God concerning PFAI, and thus misrepresents Him. According to Deuteronomy 18:22 she is speaking presumptuously and God did not send her. Notice the words that she pretends come from the mouth of God! In all truthfulness folks, what we have witnessed is a lying spirit speaking through this modern Jezebel."

1Thes 5:12-13
12 And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you;
13 And to esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake. And be

The operative word here is “know." A word, which Jackals fails to understand. Sha’ul’s exhortation comes here after his teaching on the Rapture of the Church. The order of Scripture is important and the mark of a True Apostle of Y’shua, being fully filled and inspired by The Ruach HaKodesh, The Holy Spirit of G_d.
The word “know” has hundreds of occurrences in Scripture. The words who “are over you” (Gk proistemi) obviously indicate a governing leadership, and refer to spiritual leaders like pastors, elders, or bishops. Since the church was very young, its leaders must have been appointed by the apostolic missionaries in a manner similar to that mentioned in Acts 14:23.

There we find the apostolic missionaries “ordained them elders.” In the early church, there was a need for leaders of each local congregation. However, NOWHERE do we find, in Scripture, any hierarchical structure in the early church. One predominant church did not overrule the affairs of another. These “elders” (Gr presbuteros) were spiritual leaders who shared oversight of the church and from among whom a “bishop” or pastor was CHOSEN as their leader. The elders were similar to the pastoral staff of most churches today. They engaged in the spiritual oversight of the church, whereas, the deacons were designated as servants of the congregation.

5500 cheirotoneo (khi-rot-on-eh'-o);

from a comparative of 5495 and teino (to stretch); to be a hand-reacher or voter (by raising the hand), i.e. (generally) to select or appoint:

KJV-- choose, ordain.

Nowhere in the Rt Revs testimony does a he say a biblical election process took place in his “license/ordination” proceedings. What we can perceive is Jackals called himself. I have doubts whether anyone was asked to fast and pray over this, too! Jackals teaching here is the mark of a cultic “church;” one making up their own rules as the go along, under the false leadings of “their” interpretations of “The Holy Ghost.”

Heb 13:7-9
7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.
8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
9 Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein.

The Jewish Christians here must have believed things had changed from what they first believed. Like Jackals, and those lost in the false teachings popular today, they are wrong. The various “manifestations” of Pentecostalism have gone farther away from the Bible and the anointed teachings of our spiritual fathers. It must be remembered, the word “end” here. End could mean their lives ended, and, possibly, their office of Apostle had ended.

1545 ekbasis (ek'-bas-is);

from a compound of 1537 and the base of 939 (meaning to go out); an exit (literally or figuratively):

KJV-- end, way to escape.

The key words here are “remember” and “follow.” Remember is a reference to the verse listed below; to present leaders. We are to remember and imitate the godly character and faith of these MEN.

The Scripture goes on to state the program and the person of Y’shua have not changed from when they first believed. The truth also admonishes us to NOT be carried about with strange doctrines. Ether G_d’s Grace is sufficient for the believer, or it is not. We must remember to mature in the Grace, which we received when we first believed. The Rt Revs testimony is more a story of how NOT to serve the Lord.

Heb 13:17
17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

Obey here is passive in the Greek regarding present spiritual leaders, and simply means be persuaded; but can also mean trust, believe, obey, or follow. In fact, in the next verse this word is translated “trust: for we trust we have good conscience.” Submit (Gr hypeikete), or yield. The leader must not imagine that this passage authorizes him to dictate. G_d has given to the leaders the work of overseeing, not by being overlord but by being an example. (1 Peter 5:1-3)

I am thankful for a great many blessings in my life. I will be equally as thankful on the morrow, next week or next year for they come from G_d in heaven.

Chanan(Grace) and Shalom(Peace)!

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Sola -- tamarisk, 08:10:03 11/27/02 Wed

A classic example on why Basil is, and chooses to remain an atheist.

Ten Megaton Solution
In Response To Margaret
Wednesday November 27, 2002 at 2:06

But the Bible is The Truth,
Okay, since you insist on ignoring my earlier posts...

The Bible says that Shem was born when Noah was 500. That the alleged Flood happened when Noah was 600. This means Shem was 100 when the Flood happened. The Bible, in Gen11:11 then says the Arphaxod (whatever!) was born when Shem was 100 "two years after the flood".

Gen 5:32
32 And Noah was five hundred years old: and Noah begat Shem, Ham, and Japheth.
(KJV)

What Basil "chooses" to ignore is biblical truth. Ham is the youngest while Japeth is the oldest:

Gen 9:24
24 And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him.

Gen 10:21
21 Unto Shem also, the father of all the children of Eber, the brother of Japheth the elder, even to him were children born.(KJV)

The names are not listed in chronological order. Shem is listed first here because it is through him that G_d's Mechiach would come.

Notice too, the list corresponds with the symmetrical structure of lists used elsewhere in scripture. These lists contain a tenfold scheme with the tenth in each list having 3 sons.

Chapter 5 serves at least 3 ends in the scheme of Genesis:

1. It bears witness to man's value to G_d; by naming individuals and stages in this early human phase, each is known and remembered;
2. It shows how the line of Seth, "the appointed," led to Noah, "the deliver;" and
3. It both demonstrates the reign of death by the refrain "and he died" and the standing pledge of death's defeat by the taking of Enoch.

There is nothing deceiving nor untrue in Scriture. The only glaring thing is Basil's lack of truth discernment.

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[> Re: Sola -- tamarisk, 08:13:04 11/27/02 Wed

Solly for the double post. Maybe ACNR will come by and erase one. ;)

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[> Tamarisk/ACNR/Bethany/Praludium/Annie & "ED ADAMS" -- Sola Scriptura, 20:19:09 11/27/02 Wed

Basil Uses a Form of Redaction Criticism To Explain His Atheism
Redaction Criticism of the Bible is the theory that different copyists and commentators of the early biblical writings embellished and altered the biblical texts throughout early Jewish and Christian history to make them appear more miraculous, inspirational, and legitimate.
An example of redaction theory would be the claim that Old Testament prophecies were modified by redactors after the fact to make them appear as miraculous prophecies. Redaction criticism reduces the quality of the biblical record, casts strong doubt on its inspiration, and implies that the Bible is not trustworthy as a historical document.
Redaction Criticism which began in Germany as have so many of the various Christian antagonists’ theorem. Redaction Criticism began in the early 1700's with Hermann Reimarus. He was a deist who wrote extensively opposing Christianity.
It is note worthy to me; how many of these philosophers are rabid atheists. And unlike the confusion about the “Which came first” dilemma regarding the chicken or the egg; it is my opinion that these philosopher’s hatred for Christ with the abetting of Satan is what germinates these evil theorem. Thus their hatred for Jesus is the source that spawns these vile notions that become embedded in a humanist society. Charles Darwin and Karl Marx are two such examples of this phenomenon.
Reimarus from this hatred, proposed that Jesus was a failure and that the disciples altered their stories in an attempt to make Jesus appear messianic and miraculous.
Just as a side note, writing that Reimarus claimed “Jesus was a failure” I can’t help but recall some of the blasphemous utterances about Jesus made by the mouth of Ken Copeland (among many of the Third Wave heretics) who are endorsed and advanced by several of the PFAKES on their web sites. Example from Copeland; ” "Satan conquered Jesus on the Cross” or this from Heretic-Copeland: ” Jesus' "emaciated, poured out, little, wormy spirit…..” OUTRAGEOUS!!!!!

Redaction criticism was later taken up by David Friedrich Strauss (1808-74) who attempted to show that the gospels were altered, were the expression of myth, and cannot be construed as historical. Same pattern as Ten Tons of Manure in his devise to attack God’s Word.

Others followed including Wilhelm Wrede (1859-1906) who was the next major proponent of redaction criticism. He attempted to show that the historical narratives of Mark were not reliable. Again, the same way Ten Megatons of Manure does with Noah’s sons. With this, deception is implied since the biblical documents claim authenticity and accuracy.
Some evidence offered to support biblical redaction is that the ending of Deuteronomy (Chapter 34) records Moses' death though it was not Moses who wrote it; the arrangement of the Psalms into five sections is the work of a compiler; and that the Book of Chronicles state they are based on prior writings (1 Chron. 9:1; 27:24; 29:29; 2 Chron. 9:29; 13:22; 6:11; 20:34; 25:26; 27:7; 28:26; 32:32; 33:19; 35:27; 36:8).3 There are other alleged evidences but these will suffice.

Though there are accounts of biblical writers arranging or commenting on events, this does not discount the authenticity or reliability of the biblical documents.
It is commonly accepted in conservative scholarly circles that Joshua probably wrote the ending of Deuteronomy. This does not invalidate the Mosaic authorship of the Pentateuch. Likewise, simply arranging material, such as the Psalms, into categories does not affect its inspiration, authenticity, or reliability at all. And, citing other sources for factual reference likewise, in no way reduces the inspiration of the book of Chronicles, or the Bible as a whole. The inspired writer simply used other books, which were not inspired though accurate, in his compilation of the biblical record.

Redaction criticism is refuted by the evidence of the reliability of the historic documents the fact that the prophecies were indeed made and fulfilled, and that the Bible is archeologically accurate. Due to the science of Textual Criticism, the original texts of the Bible can be reconstructed with a great deal of accuracy, their prophetic nature verified, and their inspiration maintained.

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Sola -- tamarisk, 14:27:33 11/27/02 Wed

Was playing with the puter settings, etc., and lost the URL to the "white room." Please send to my email link.

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[> Tamarisk -- Sola, 17:07:19 11/27/02 Wed

o-key doke!
May you and yours be blessed by the LORD ,
the Maker of heaven and earth.

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Sola -- tamarisk, 08:10:21 11/27/02 Wed

A classic example on why Basil is, and chooses to remain an atheist.

Ten Megaton Solution
In Response To Margaret
Wednesday November 27, 2002 at 2:06

But the Bible is The Truth,
Okay, since you insist on ignoring my earlier posts...

The Bible says that Shem was born when Noah was 500. That the alleged Flood happened when Noah was 600. This means Shem was 100 when the Flood happened. The Bible, in Gen11:11 then says the Arphaxod (whatever!) was born when Shem was 100 "two years after the flood".

Gen 5:32
32 And Noah was five hundred years old: and Noah begat Shem, Ham, and Japheth.
(KJV)

What Basil "chooses" to ignore is biblical truth. Ham is the youngest while Japeth is the oldest:

Gen 9:24
24 And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him.

Gen 10:21
21 Unto Shem also, the father of all the children of Eber, the brother of Japheth the elder, even to him were children born.(KJV)

The names are not listed in chronological order. Shem is listed first here because it is through him that G_d's Mechiach would come.

Notice too, the list corresponds with the symmetrical structure of lists used elsewhere in scripture. These lists contain a tenfold scheme with the tenth in each list having 3 sons.

Chapter 5 serves at least 3 ends in the scheme of Genesis:

1. It bears witness to man's value to G_d; by naming individuals and stages in this early human phase, each is known and remembered;
2. It shows how the line of Seth, "the appointed," led to Noah, "the deliver;" and
3. It both demonstrates the reign of death by the refrain "and he died" and the standing pledge of death's defeat by the taking of Enoch.

There is nothing deceiving nor untrue in Scripture. The only glaring thing is Basil's lack of truth discernment.

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PFAI: How clever and double-tongued the devil and his spirits are! -- Part 2, 23:53:13 11/25/02 Mon

"THIS IS INTERESTING" as our favorite Martian likes to say.....

The following links and quotes that appeared on November 23rd, 2002, have suddenly and without explaination been erased from "Michael Kear Ministries’" recommended links page:

”Kenneth Copeland Ministries
One of the best resources on the web. You can be
enriched in the study area or you can watch videos or
listen to teaching on line.”

“Pentecostal Faith Assemblies, Inc.
An association of ministers under the leadership of
Bishop Jack Howell.

”Kenneth Hagin Ministries
One of my favorite places around (in cyberspace or in
real life!)

”E.W. Kenyon
Faith building books and tapes.

”Charles Capps Ministries
Good books and tapes from an Elder Statesman of the
"Faith Camp." The simplicity of illustration and depth
of truth in Bro. Capps' teaching is invaluable.

….One has to wonder why. After all, it has been just two days ago that Kear stated the following of Ken Copeland’s site: ” One of the best resources on the web. You can be enriched in the study area….”
Let’s look at some of this “enriching” flotsam Kear finds edifying.

Copeland insists "Satan _conquered_ Jesus on the Cross and took His spirit to the dark regions of hell" (emphasis in original).[71] Copeland's description of Christ's ordeal in hell is nothing short of chilling: "He [Jesus] allowed the devil to drag Him into the depths of hell....He allowed Himself to come under Satan's control...every demon in hell came down on Him to annihilate Him....They tortured Him beyond anything anybody had ever conceived. For three days He suffered everything there is to suffer."[72]
The situation seemed hopeless, as Jesus' "emaciated, poured out, little, wormy spirit is down in the bottom of that thing; and the devil thinks he's got Him destroyed."[73] However, Copeland explains that "Satan fell into the trap. He took Him [Jesus] into hell illegally. He carried Him in there [when] He did not sin."[74] God found the opening He needed: "That Word of the living God went down into that pit of destruction and charged the spirit of Jesus with resurrection power! Suddenly His twisted, death-wracked spirit began to fill out and come back to life....Jesus was born again -- the firstborn from the dead the Word calls Him -- and He whipped the devil in his own backyard."[75
If Ken Copeland’s website was, in Bishop Kear’s words from only two days ago, “One of the BEST” why did Kear remove the best and re-work the page to reflect an entirely different group of links??? Discerning believers want to know.

Here’s what the “Kear Ministries” had to say about another heretic he was smitten with yesterday, but has suddenly fallen out of favor with Kear today:

”Kenneth Hagin Ministries
One of my favorite places around (in cyberspace or in real life!) ”

Let’s see if we understand this correctly; one day these folks are the “best links” and his “favorites” and he is high-fiveing them as his “BROTHERS” THEN, a couple of days later their references are deleted from his site all together as if they never existed.

IF Charles Capps’ books, tapes, and apostate teachings, , WERE found to be, according to Kear; ”…. (the) depth of truth in Bro. Capps' teaching is invaluable.” two days ago; why were they, yanked without a trace? Last week Kear Ministries is claiming Capps was an “Invaluable” “Brother" Today, he’s expunged from existance!

The Bible doesn't call Jesus "an "emaciated, poured out, little, wormy spirit." The Bible uses words like:

Almighty, Alpha and Omega the Amen, (His) Anointed, the Arm of the Lord, the Author and Finisher of Our Faith, Beginning and End of the Creation of God, the Blessed and Only Potentate, the Bread of Life, the Bridegroom, the Bright and Morning Star, the Brightness of the Father's Glory, the Captain of the Lord's Host, the Captain of Salvation, the Chief Shepherd, the Chief Cornerstone, the Chiefest Among Ten Thousand, the Chosen of God, the Christ, Our Lord, the chosen of God, the Power of God, the Wisdom of God, the Son of God, Son of the Blessed, the Commander, the Cornerstone, Counsellor, the Day Star, the Deliverer, the Desire of All Nations, the Door, Emmanuel, the Everlasting Father, the Faithful and True, the Faithful Witness, the First and Last, (Beginning and End), the Foundation, the Gift of God, the Glory of Israel, God, God Blessed Forever, God Manifest in the Flesh, God of Israel, the Savior, God of the Whole Earth, God our Savior, God's Dear Son, God With Us, Good Master, Governor, Great Shepherd of the Sheep, Head of the Church, Heir of all Things, High Priest, Head of Every Man, Head of the Church, Head of the Corner, Holy Child Jesus, Holy One, Holy One of God, Holy One of Israel, Holy Thing, our Hope, the Horn of Salvation, the I Am, the Image of God, Jehovah, King of the Jews, Just One, King of Israel, King of Kings, Lord of Lords, King of Glory, King of Zion, King over All The Earth, the Lamb, the Lamb of God, the Lawgiver, the Life, the Light, Light Everlasting, the Light of the World, Light to the gentiles, Living Bread, Living Stone, Lion of the Tribe of Judah, Lord of All, Lord our Righteousness, Lord God Almighty, Lord from Heaven, Lord of Hosts, Lord, Mighty in Battle, Lord of the Dead and Living, Lord of the Sabbath, Lord Over All, Lord Christ, Lord Strong and Mighty, Lord Our Righteousness, Lord, Your Holy One, Lord, Your Redeemer, the Man of Sorrows, Master, the Mediator, the Messenger of the Covenant, Messiah, Messiah the Prince, Mighty God, Mighty one of Israel, the Mighty one of Jacob, the Minister of the Sanctuary, (Bright) Morning Star, Most Holy, Most Mighty,Only Begotten, Only Begotten of the Father, Only Begotten Son, Only Wise God, Our Savior, our Passover, Potentate, the Power of God, Physician, Precious Cornerstone, Priest, the Prince, Prince of Life, Prince of Peace, Prince of the Kings of the Earth, Prophet, our Propitiation, Rabbi, Rabboni, our Ransom, Redeemer, Resurrection and Life, our Redemption, the Righteous Branch, the Righteous Judge, the Righteous Servant, Rose of Sharon, Savior, Savior of the World, the Shepherd and Bishop of Souls, Chief Shepherd, the Good Shepherd, Great Shepherd, the Shepherd of Israel, Shiloh, Son of the Father, Son of God, Son of Man, Son of the Blessed, Son of the Highest, Son of David, Star, Sun of Righteousness, Teacher, True God, the True Vine, Truth, the Unspeakable Gift, Very Christ, the Vine , the Way, He Which Is, Which Was, Which Is To Come, the Wisdom of God, the Witness, Wonderful, the Word, the Word of God, the Word of Life
...to describe Jesus!

The only place you will hear Jesus called a wormy little emaciated spirit is in a Word of Faith or PFAKES and DAKES meeting somewhere. You won't find it in the Word of God!

REFERENCES: 71 Kenneth Copeland, _Holy Bible: Kenneth Copeland Reference Edition_ (Fort Worth: Kenneth Copeland Ministries, 1991), 129. 72 Copeland, "The Price of It All," 3. 73 Kenneth Copeland, _Believer's Voice of Victory_ (television program), TBN, 21 April 1991. 74 Copeland, _What Happened from the Cross to the Throne,_ side 2. 75 Copeland, "The Price of It All," 4-6.

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[> PFAI: How clever and double-tongued the devil and his spirits are! -- What a difference Light exposing their dark corners makes!, 00:15:15 11/26/02 Tue

well, well, well....what a difference only TWO days, and some light shown on their dark corners makes. Here are the new "best" links.


"Sources for Information and Inspiration

The Alliance of Baptists
The Alliance of Baptists is an alliance of individuals and churches dedicated to the preservation of historic Baptist principles, freedoms, and traditions, and to the expression of our ministry and mission through cooperative relationships with other Baptist bodies and the larger Christian community.

Baptist Peace Fellowship of North America
The purpose of the Baptist Peace Fellowship of North America is to unite and enable Christians to make peace with justice in a warring world.

Cooperative Baptist Fellowship
"We are a fellowship of Baptist Christians and churches who share a passion for the Great Commission of Jesus Christ and a commitment to Baptist principles of faith and practice. Our purpose is to serve Christians and churches as they discover and fulfill their God-given mission."

Mainstream Baptists
Lots of good articles on this site.

The Baptist History and Heritage Society
"Helping Baptists Discover, Conserve, Assess and Share Their History!"

Roger Williams Fellowship
The Roger Williams Fellowship was founded in 1935 out of a need for a forum within the Northern Baptist Convention (at that time) where a variety of social and faith issues could be discussed with respect for diverse theological perspectives. The Fellowship welcomes laity and clergy of diverse backgrounds and perspectives who seek to discuss, study, and struggle with questions of conscience. The context of our mutual discernment is the exercise and pursuit of religious freedom.

North American Academy of Ecumenists
The goal of the North American Academy of Ecumenists is to inform, relate, and encourage men and women whose profession or ministry in the church involves them in ecumenical activities and studies. Its unique contribution is to provide ecumenists with an open structure for exploring issues too important to be left exclusively to official ecumenical agencies and projects.

John Michael Talbot
Heavenly Music!

Dietrich Bonhoeffer Homepage
Home of the International Bonhoeffer Society."

BTW: isn't John Michael Talbot Roman Catholic? I had some of his music in the car years ago, but I pitched it due to the overt RCC lyrics that drove me up the wall. What's the matter with these people????? Someone send them a set of white tipped canes. LOL!

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[> [> Re: PFAI: How clever and double-tongued the devil and his spirits are! -- tamarisk, 07:16:16 11/26/02 Tue

I believe Mr. Sola to be correct in his discernment concerning the Vineyard Movement, the Third Wave of Pentecostalism. I'm not sure if they are truly blind or just go about life with blinders on, for they can see neither right or left.

Looking at the links listed above, they are BINOS(Baptists In Name Only). I would like to do a web search on those organizations to see how many of them are 501 c 3 agents for the IRS. How many of them have accepted goobermint mininsterial licenses for the "profit" of their ministries?

A note to Jackals and his deceived "friends." A true,Independent Baptist Church does NOT have alliance, fellowship, or conference ties. They are autonomous. They have the right of self-government based soundly and firmly on the Holy Scriptures ONLY! A truly Independent Baptist Church has the G_d given right to license/ordain its pastors and preachers according to their calling.

What a contrast between a true Baptist Church and the PFAKE type. Of course, the self-proclaimed "Pastors, Pastor," with his blinders on, will not understand the truth in the message.

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[> [> [> PFAI: How clever and double-tongued the devil and his spirits are! -- to Tamarisk, 12:01:05 11/26/02 Tue

Great post. Amen! and Amen!

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[> [> [> [> PFAI: How clever and double-tongued the devil and his spirits are! -- Dia, 22:55:24 11/26/02 Tue

Yep. The heretics at PFAKE don't like the light shown in their die-rection, do they? Once they come under scrutiny, they self-destruct.

Below was the link of Jack Receiving official recognition from the experts for being a few peas short of a casserole.

http://f.bb.bbboy.net/revealedtruthministries/MLOA.jpg

Maybe PFAKES like Jack with a room temperature IQ, didn’t think anyone would notice if he suddenly pulled the link after advertising it on multiple boards, in dozens of posts. Could the light have been too uncomfortable for him?

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Stay away from Jack Howell, Kenneth Copeland & their "anointing"! -- Sola Scriptura, 17:26:48 11/25/02 Mon


Good evening Saints! What a glorious morning sun raise and early morning spectacular sky we had this morning in our neck of the woods! Looking to the Western sky at about 7:00 AM, the wonderfully lit pink-to-deep-magenta hued sky was radiating beneath an iridescent cerulean blue ceiling cap of clouds. ALL was accented with a glistening RAINBOW. Lots of “OHhhhhs and Awhhhs!” started our day. What a blessed treat to behold with our morning beverage. My husband pointed it out as he sipped his coffee. I joined him with my fresh cup of Darjeeling tea. We just snuggled and stood in aw peering from our dining room window. What a way to begin a day the Lord has made. There must have been some moisture in the distant air, as we experienced no rain in our area. Rainbows are so lovely!

Tamarisk you pointed out some great inconsistencies and hypocrisies about those in the Third Wave movement like PFAKES. We went out grocery shopping together today, loading up the pantry with non-perishables and the freezer with various fish, shrimps and tomorrow poultry for the holidays. We like to retreat to the quietude of our home and remove ourselves from the holiday crazies. Then we had lunch at our favorite Restorante. I mentioned to Mr. Sola Power some of the blatant lies and hypocrisies emanating out of Moore. How they are so incredibly obvious to us at the blue room. It was pointed out by my Godly husband to remember that these people have been blinded. Good point.

The Kenneth Copeland Ministries web site (would Paul have named a ministry after himself?) This is exactly what Mike Kear, the “bishop” who ordained Rev. Jack Howell has done as well. No small wonder Kear is also a promoter of Copeland who names a “ministry” after his prideful SELF, and that Kear offers links that recommend Copeland’s apostate website.

Copeland has a page called "A Prayer For Salvation And Baptism In The Holy Spirit". This is a classic study on how NOT to preach the gospel, which I will detail line for line.

This page can be accessed at:
http://www.kcm.org/salv_area/bptzmhs.html
or here:

http://www.kcm.org/studycenter/articles/salvation/prayer_salvation.html

I strongly advise non-believers and young believers to avoid visiting the Copeland site because it it full of false teachings and spiritual deception. The link is given above so that those who will inevitably call me a liar saying Copeland never said these things, will have to deal with the truth.

First of all, there is no premise or gospel preached on the web page before telling people to pray this prayer. Without belief in Christ and repentance, there can be no salvation. The gospel must be clearly understood with the mind and heart before one can declare it with their lips. Is this some magical prayer?

"Heavenly Father, I come to You in the Name of Jesus. Your Word says, "Whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved" (Acts 2:21). I am calling on You. I pray and ask Jesus to come into my heart and be Lord over my life according to Romans 10:9-10. "If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." I do that now. I confess that Jesus is Lord, and I believe in my heart that God raised Him from the dead."

The above is fine, so long as the person is not using this prayer as a magic formula of salvation and clearly believes what he is confessing with his mouth.

"I am now reborn! I am a Christian - a child of Almighty God! I am saved!"

Are we to proclaim this to God? God has promised us salvation if we believe on Jesus Christ and make Him the Lord of our lives, but to pray this to God smacks of Copeland's other doctrines of "declaring" and "proclaiming" things into being by the "force of faith". Only God decides who is saved and who isn't. We can be assured that we are saved when we truly believe, but we cannot command God to save us.

"You also said in Your Word, "If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: HOW MUCH MORE shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?" (Luke 11:13). I'm also asking You to fill me with the Holy Spirit."

This Scripture was a lesson to the apostles on having faith. It was spoken to His disciples. It was not meant to be a prayer to summon the Holy Spirit into our beings. There is no place in Scripture that commands us to pray to be baptized with the Holy Spirit. The Spirit indwells a believer when that believer believes. That is the baptism of the Holy Spirit. The Spirit then empowers from WITHIN, giving gifts to the believer. The "fruit of the Spirit" then becomes evident in the believer. This prayer is not needed, in fact it is dangerous. When we believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, we are filled with the Spirit. To try to summon the Holy Spirit is to summon a demon, that can call itself by many names.

Eph. 1:13 "And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit."

There is no prerequisite for salvation other than "hearing" the gospel, and "believing" the gospel. When that happens God has promised through His Son that we are IMMEDIATELY "marked" and "sealed" with the Holy Spirit.

No one is exempt from this promise:

1 Cor. 12:13 "For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free and we were all given the one Spirit to drink."

We who believe are ALL baptized by the Spirit.
"Holy Spirit, rise up within me as I praise God. I fully expect to speak with other tongues as You give me the utterance (Acts 2:4).

This is also false doctrine. We are not expected by God to speak with other tongues, especially the kind that Copeland talks about. It is true that the Apostles spoke in "tongues" at Pentecost:

Acts 2:4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.

What Copeland and other Third Wavers ignore, in fact what many charismatics ignore, is that the "tongues" at Pentecost were actual languages.

Acts 2:8-11 Then how is it that each of us hears them in his own native language? Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs-- we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!

This true gift of real "tongues" is very rare. It is also not for every believer.

1Co 12:30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret?

The rhetorical answer it obviously "NO"! This is a false doctrine that has been around for a long time and has cause untold pain and destruction.

"Begin to praise God for filling you with the Holy Spirit. Speak those words and syllables you receive - not in your own language, but the language given to you by the Holy Spirit. You have to use your own voice. God will not force you to speak. Now you are a Spirit-filled believer."

First of all, tongues were given at Pentecost not just as a witness of the Spirit, but more importantly to preach the gospel. Copeland is not talking about this. What Copeland wants you to do is empty your mind and start babbling, giving a foothold to the enemy to deceive you into thinking you are truly "filled with the Spirit".

This can make a believer demonized right at the point when he first believes in Christ. This is one of the most dangerous times for a believer, and Copeland is being led by one who wants you to be exposed to demons.

Second, God says we are to worship Him with our whole minds. We are not advised in Scripture to empty our minds as many cults and eastern religion groups and Copeland tells you to do. Copeland has said before:

"Believers are not to be led by logic," he writes. "We are not even to be led by good sense" (Kenneth Copeland, The Force of Faith, 7)

The Bible says:

Rom. 12:2 "Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is his good, pleasing and perfect will."

When we are born again, God gives us a new mind. This mind is to be used to find out what God's will is.

Mt 22:37 Jesus replied: "`Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'

One thing that God wants us to do with our mind is to love Him with it. We cannot love God by disengaging our minds that He created. We must love Him at all times with our whole being.

Isa 26:3 "You will keep in perfect peace him whose mind is steadfast, because he trusts in you."

God is not a God of disorder and chaos. He keeps our minds peaceful as we keep our minds steadfastly on Him. We are also to fill our minds with Scripture and the word of Christ.

Col. 3:16 "Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom, and as you sing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God."

Don't pray for the "power to come" so you can get this "anointing" as many of these counterfeit revivalists such as bedroom “bishop” Howell and some of PFAKE-PRAI-ers would have you do. This type of prayer is not biblical.

We are to pray always and pray without ceasing, praying always "Thy will be done"!. These people pray THEIR will be done!

Mt 6:10 "your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven."

Copeland: Continue with the blessing God has given you and pray in tongues each day. You'll never be the same!
We are to witness each day, live a life pleasing to God each day, and pray each day, but the Bible never commands all Christians to pray in tongues each day! This is a lie of the enemy that disengages the mind of the believer and opens him up to demonization.

Kenneth Copeland and Jack Howell has demonstrated, well beyond any reasonable doubt, that he is apostate and a wolf in sheep's clothing. If you doubt this, read his quotes below along with those which are to follow in coming days.

Salvation is not a formula. It is not a mantra. It is not some magical potion. It is not something you declare into existence by the force called "faith". You cannot save yourself, and Jesus did die physically for your sins and saves us by His blood, not as Copeland claims:

"Jesus had to go through that same spiritual death in order to pay the price. Now it wasn't the physical death on the cross that paid the price for sin, because if it had of been any prophet of God that had died for the last couple of thousand years before that could have paid that price. It wasn't physical death anybody could do that." (Kenneth Copeland, "What Satan Saw on the Day of Pentecost" (Kenneth Copeland Ministries, audio tape #020022)

1Pe 3:18 For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit,

Heb. 10:10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

COl. 1:20-22 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross. Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation--

Stay away from Jack Howell, Kenneth Copeland, and all those who have received the "anointing" through him, which include Rodney Howard-Browne and those he laid hands on such as John Arnott and anyone from the Toronto "Blessing" and Steve Hill or anyone from the Brownsville "Outpouring". The "anointing" of Copeland and Howell is an evil malignant cancer that needs to be excised from the body of Christ before many more saints are deceived. Amen!

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Sola -- tamarisk, 15:01:00 11/25/02 Mon

Found this article in a past issue of Calvary Contender.

WILLOW CREEK & WOMEN PASTORS—Bill Hybels' Willow Creek Community Church near Chicago years ago decided “after months of study and debate” that it would support women in any position of leadership—teacher, preacher, elder. The church's theological guru and founding elder, Wheaton College professor Gilbert Bilezikian, argues that “secular socialization regarding sex roles,” whereby men are cut out for certain tasks and women for others, has no place in a Christian community (ll/13 CT). The church has garnered criticism because it requires that a potential member be able to “joyfully sit under the teaching of women teachers” and “joyfully submit to the leadership of women in various leadership positions at Willow Creek before joining. A female elder said, “…if you can't embrace this teaching, practically speaking, you'd probably be happier at some other church.” Bilezikian is said to enjoy a glass of red wine with his meal [“Dr.'s orders!”], and has “legions of female followers.“ Perhaps not surprisingly, “Women at Willow Creek fall in love with him….” Such is the man behind Bill Hybels' seeker-sensitive megachurch ministry.

Tamarisk Comments--For one such person, calling themselves Christian who would willingly put themselves under the authority of a woman, is sheer heresy and false teaching. Again, women as Apostles, Prophet(for profit), Pastors, Preachers, Deacons, etc., are telling biblical signs leading to the End Times Apostasy. It is the sign of a weak ministry and one wishing to become popular. Popular preaching is all the rage these daze. The debil loves it!

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Sola -- tamarisk, 10:11:02 11/25/02 Mon

WRT:

"The Strifemongers Have Come To The Dake Board
November 23 2002 at 10:07 AM

It appears that Sola, Adams, or Tamarisk have nothing better to do with their time, than to cause strife and discord, and attack genuine Christians, even though they claim to be Christians. One of them is now using an anonymous proxy server to post their strife on the Dake Board. All Moderators are deleting their posts as soon as they are discovered. I have contacted the Administrators of the proxy server the person is using for the person's actual IP number. It has been recommended to Pastor Leon Bible, Owner of the Dake Discussion Board, that this person's IP numbers be permanently banned.

Rev. Jack Howell

It's always interesting dealing with flaming Charismatics. Like dealing with the public "fool" system and its agents, the administrators and facilitators, they like to operate under the cloak of darkness by staying in the gray areas.

Either the proxy server is "anonymous" or they are not. Iffin I remember correctly, Jackals posted some months ago, he has a software program giving him hundreds of IP numbers for him to use. The debil sho' hates it when someone uses his tactics against him. ;)

I wonder when Jackals will learn, he can contact most anyone he chooses. Most will just look at him as a nutcase who has too much time on his hands.

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PFAKE - PFAI They speak visions from their own minds, not from the mouth of the LORD -- Sola Scriptura, 04:21:44 11/25/02 Mon

They speak visions from their own minds,
not from the mouth of the LORD

"In 1989 an anointed prophet of God recounted a vision to Rev. Michael Kear, our Founding Bishop, during a Pastor's Meeting at Red Rock, Oklahoma. She said, "I don't know why God is having me share this with you, but I had a vision and in this vision I could see the United States from coast to coast. The whole land lay in darkness. Suddenly, a lighthouse began to emerge from the gloom in Oklahoma. Wherever the light from this lighthouse was shed abroad, other lighthouses began to spring up. And then where they shed their light, still others popped up and they began to spread north, south, east and west until the whole land was covered in light from sea to sea."

PFAKE PFAI was erected on the shifting loam of false visions and flattering divinations ejaculated from the mouth of a false prophetess whose spirit was not tested according to the Scriptures. The LORD said, "The prophets are prophesying lies in my name. I have not sent them or appointed them or spoken to them. They are prophesying to you false visions, divinations, idolatries and the delusions of their own minds”. But the fornicators with unclean spirits did not consult The Holy One and His Word from old in their eagerness and haste to be flattered and have their ears tickled by her lying Jezebel spirit.

Because of your false words and lying visions, I am against you, declares the Sovereign LORD. Thus you have PFAKE-PFAI the perpetration of a lie which was introduced by a seducing spirit. They will not belong to the council of my people or be listed in the records of the Lamb. PFAI follows seducing spirits.

"But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies ..." 2 Pet. 2:1

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Wow! Such - Despicable - Spelling! -- Sola Scriptura, 22:37:25 11/20/02 Wed



Wow! Such Despicable Spelling!

Double Wow ( WOW-WOW) Jack’s Fake “Friend” named “A Lurker and Friend of Rev.Jack” Is Spelling Challenged……..on the very SAME words…….AMAZING…….Triple WOW! (WOW! WOW! WOW!) calliope music if you please……oomph-papa…..

What do you expect from a Walmart clown that take turns expelling self-promoting gas and venerating a translation of the bible that was written by a randy heretic that molested little girls at his admitted petting parties”?

Wow! Such Dispicable Behavior!
November 19 2002 at 8:57 PM
Rev. Jack Howell Rev. Jack Howell
Forum Owner
from IP address 68.12.221.220
Subject: Sola Mentally Ill and Dispicable Behavior

Author:A Lurker and Friend of Rev.Jack
Date Posted: 22:02:32 11/17/02 Sun
Dispicable Behavior
”The above is a link posted by Rev. Jack on his board regarding the dispicable,……

Subject: Re: Sola Mentally Ill and DispicableBehavior
Author:A Lurker and Friend of Rev. Jack
Date Posted: 22:14:17 11/17/02 Sun
In reply to: A Lurker and Friend of Rev.Jack 's message, "Sola Mentally Ill and Dispicable Behavior" on 22:14:17 11/17/02 Sun

Dispicable Behavior
The above is a link posted by Rev. Jack on his boar regarding thedispicable,

Subject: Re: Sola Mentally Ill and Dispicable Behavior
Author: Sola Is Quite Mentally Ill or Just Pure Evil!
Date Posted: 22:21:53 11/17/02 Sun
In reply to: A Lurker and Friend of Rev. Jack 's message, "Re: Sola Mentally Ill andDispicable Behavior" on 22:21:53 11/17/02 Sun

Dispicable Behavior
The above is a link posted by Rev. Jack on his board regarding the dispicable,
Subject: Re: Sola Mentally Ill and Dispicable Behavior


Date Posted: 06:56:36 11/18/02 Mon
In reply to: "Re: Sola Mentally Ill and Dispicable Behavior" on 06:56:36 11/18/02 Mon
Dispicable Behavior
The above is a link posted by Rev. Jack on his board regarding the dispicable, callous,…………

Subject: Re: Sola Mentally Ill and Dispicable Behavior
Date Posted: 08:08:50 11/18/02 Mon
"Re: Sola Mentally Ill and Dispicable Behavior" on 08:08:50 11/18/02 Mon
Dispicable Behavior
The above is a link posted by Rev. Jack on his board regarding the dispicable,

Subject: Sola's Dispicable Behavior
Author: A Lurker Who Is A Friend of Rev. Jack
Date Posted: 20:41:31 11/17/02 Sun
Dispicable Behavior
The above is a link posted by Rev. Jack on his board regarding the dispicable,

Subject: Re: Sola's Dispicable Behavior


Author: A Lurker and Friend of Rev. Jack
Date Posted: 21:27:35 11/17/02 Sun
In reply to: A Lurker Who Is A Friend of Rev. Jack 's message, "Sola's Dispicable Behavior" on 21:27:35 11/17/02 Sun
>href="http://bb.bbboy.net/revealedtruthministries-viewt
hread?forum=1&thread=5"> Dispicable Behavior
>
>The above is a link posted by Rev. Jack on his board
>regarding thedispicable,

Subject: Re: Sola's Dispicable Behavior
Author: A Lurker and Friend of Rev. Jack
Date Posted: 21:28:48 11/17/02 Sun
In reply to: A Lurker Who Is A Friend of Rev. Jack 's message, "Sola's Dispicable Behavior" on 21:28:48 11/17/02 Sun

Dispicable Behavior The above is a link posted by Rev. Jack on his board regarding the dispicable, ……blah, blah. blah………we get the idea.


”Subject: Sola Needs To Read This Before Making a Fool of Herself Further”

~~~~~~~Actually, Jack Howell holds a lock on the “FOOL” department.

Next time Jack invites all his FAKE, invisible entourage of “lurkers” to a forum to use the word DESPICABLE! nearly 75 times on various boards, maybe they need to invest in an intensive remedial spelling course first.

Better yet, Jack here’s some free advice; Stick with your word “WOW” it’s easier than tackling those polysyllabic ditties that seem a bit over your head. Which reminds me, since you appear in the photos to be only five feet tall…….GET THIS STRAIGHT! It's not my fault you can't go on the good rides in Disney. Stubby. So get over it.

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[> Re: Wow! Such - Despicable - Spelling! -- tamarisk, 07:17:56 11/21/02 Thu

Yule notice I be spellin' challenged, two! ;)

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[> [> Dake the Fake -- tamarisk, 07:57:22 11/21/02 Thu

WRT-"What do you expect from a Walmart clown that take turns expelling self-promoting gas and venerating a translation of the bible that was written by a randy heretic that molested little girls at his admitted petting parties?"

Oneness Pentecostals/Charismaniacs/Word of Faithers/Third Wave Pentecostals(Vineyard Movements--Wimberites) and Lighthouse Movement(mostly Preterist beliefs), all have the same common thread with the Roman Catholic Church. The nutz didn't fall too far from the bolt.

What they really espouse is Landmarkism. There are Landmark Baptist churches believing, like RCism, they are the "one true church" directly in the Apostolic line. While it may be truth, good luck in proving this.

This, of course, has led to a few thousand years of abuse by the various churches believing this. It entitles them to spout false and wrong doctrines under to guise of transubstantiation, consubstantiation(Lutheranism), baptismal regeneration, salvation with the evidence of speaking in unknown tongues(perversion of Acts 2:38). The beat goes on and on.

Was chatting with one of the workers at In-N-Out burger, last evening. I could read Charismatic Pentecostal from the start. He didn't have to tell me he has purchased all of the Gloria Copeland prayer and inspirational books. He didn't have to tell me all has come to pass. I will use the next opportunity to remind him, Satan comes as an Angel of Light, in this world. He certainly has power to "manifest" miracles to make it look like G_d answered his prayers. Most in Pentecostal churches are under the false assumption their perversion of works covers all the wrong doctrines they spout.

Rom 10:1-6
1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)
(KJV)

Mags supposes if, she is right concerning her Oneness Pentecostal teaching, she still attains an eternity in heaven. She bases this largely on perversions of the Scripture. She denys the power of Satan and the truth G_d has the debil on a long leash to do His will. His will is the same as to the Jews of old and present. The law was given to, and taught by Moses because it contains the greater message of Mechiach, and His coming.

I am now teaching in 1 Samuel for bible study. The Jews continually rejected their G_d, The Holy One of Israel, Blessed Be He. They wanted a king like to surrounding nations, to rule over them. G_d gives men the desires of their own hearts. He may send one of His own to reprove and rebuke you, but, you have free will and can choose to ignore the truth and the messenger sent to tell you that truth.

Israel would have their king. But, much was required because of the flesh. The king would want kingly things. King George W, of the Bush, is no different. However the truth objects of GWB's worship have been exposed. Three thousand years has not changed the hearts of men. Only the G_d of the Bible, through His Holy Word, can convict the hearts of men.

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[> [> Moore Stoopid Boob Tricks From The Bedroom Bishop -- 96 thesis, 04:12:07 11/25/02 Mon

>Yule notice I be spellin' challenged, two! ;)

LOL! We all misspell words, but here is the beeg difference; we don’t prove ourselves scruple-less LIARS in the PROCESS like Bishop Beezle-Bubba did. He was adulating himself before others by repeatedly asserting that posts he was clandestinely making with phony names (“lurker friend of Jack’s”) were actually “friends of his.” As a twist of Godly justice, Jackals was caught red handed trying to deceive others. He was convicted before everyone’s eyes for his dishonest behavior by repeatedly misspelling the exact same words as his PFAKE invisible friends. Thus every time he misspelled despicable he was saying “Rev. Jack Howell is a low-life LIAR and this is the proof!” It was delicious to watch and everyone just gave him the rope and allowed him to prattle on.

In the event anyone had any reservations that the bedroom bishop was a PFRAUD playing games on the forum, they had 75 times to sort out their own failure to smell the barnyard. Also, when we have a lapse in spelling, generally we don’t repeat our stoopidity 75 times for the world’s entertainment. Adding to the circus atmosphere, the humor of his faux pas was the followed by a post from another higher and mightier bishop, named Kear who claimed Sola was “Illiterate” while just above and below Kear’s ramblings on that page alone, JuJu-Jack had misspelled “despicable” a good dozen times!!! What a hoot! One just laughs at such foolishness prideful men in purple robes.

This in the latest ditty from the bishop’s box of humorous boob tricks……..

Whoops! The looks like the bedroom bishop just fell off his high horse again. Good thing he has all that extra padding.

(Sola)…..”….reveals a total lack of knowledge of the subject. In effect, her own post has discredited her in the eyes of those knowledgable of the facts.” HARUMPH!!!!

Want a towel for the egg on your face, Jackals? Perhaps Jack had better learn to SPELL knowledgeableif he is to assert with any credibility that his is somehow infinitely superior to that of others, me thinks. FOFL! The Holy one of Israel has the ultimate sense of humor in such matters and knows how to squash a serpent’s vanity of vanities. FOFL&L

…..we prolly shuddent use da words prolly ‘cuz Mike Kear don’t git et, he thanks weez be ill-liter-ate, Jethro. I thanks he beez da false teacher and he kan put dat in heez corn cob pipe and smoke et!

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Jack Howell continues to drift further and further into darkness -- Sola Scriptura, 22:39:01 11/24/02 Sun

2 Cor 11:14-15 ”...Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works. ”

Word-Faith teachers such as those touted and advanced by Mike Kear who ordained Jack Howell, owe their ancestry to groups like Christian Science, Swedenborgianism, Theosophy, Science of Mind, and New Thought--not to classical Pentecostalism.

It reveals that at their very core, Word-Faith teachings are corrupt. When this is pointed out to heretics such as Jack Howell of Moore Oklahoma, it sends him into a mindless stuttering tail-spin that is truly humorous to observe. WOF-er's undeniable derivation is cultish, not Christian. This is a documented fact of life that some have difficulty coming to grips with when it is unmistakably illustrated for them utilizing their own sources and their material, along with their direct quotes.

Unlike the intellectual dishonesty of Jack Howell who can never deal with the TRUTH, he feebly attempts to attach some sort of link with myself and Hank Hannegraaf whom I have never endorsed and have no connection too in any form. We, on the other hand, cite men (and their public quotes) who are actually recommended, endorsed, or in some way advanced by PFAKE members on publicly available web-sites. BEEG difference. We hold them accountable to men’s words whom they publicly endorse….Jack on the other hand, scavenges for human short comings among evangelical men and strains gnats to foist some sort of association with me personally, when no association exists. I am so unfamiliar with Mr. Hannegraaf as a point of fact, that it was only recently I learned he has a radio program, Bible Answer Man (or some such name), which to date I have never heard him.

It may be pointed out that Jack has mentioned that Hank Hannegraaf is said to have in some way “hurt” Jack. All this by-stander can figure out is this is some of transference issue with Jack’s insistence that I be linked with a man who I have NO working knowledge of. This attempted link with me and the man who hurt Jack has been going on with Jack for months and is truly quite careless and bazaar.

The sad truth is that the gospel proclaimed by the Word-Faith movement is not the gospel of the New Testament. Word-Faith doctrine is a mongrel system, a blend of mysticism, dualism, and gnosticism that borrows generously from the teachings of the metaphysical cults.

The Word-Faith movement may be the most dangerous false system that has grown out of the charismatic movement so far, because so many charismatics are unsure of the finality of Scripture

Examine some quotes below by a man endorsed and supported by Mike Kear who ordained Jack Howell. It goes directly to the issue of PFAKE’s integrity (or paucity of same!), it too, marks their trustworthiness as a “ministry” and the veracity of those claiming to be “anointed” ordained “bishops” within that body; whether they like these details, or not. Fish rot from the head. Jack Howell the former "head" of the fish department at Wal-Mart has intimate experience in this analogy. There is definitely something very fishy, and addled about the doctrine of men PFAKE – PFAI endorses.

“You don’t have a God in you. You are one!”
Kenneth Copeland, The Force of Love audiotape

"God's reason for creating Adam was His desire to reproduce Himself. I mean a reproduction of Himself, and in the Garden of Eden He did just that. He was not a little like God. He was not almost like God. He was not subordinate to God even. . . . Adam is as much like God as you could get, just the same as Jesus. . . . Adam, in the Garden of Eden, was God manifested in the flesh."
Kenneth Copeland, Following the Faith of Abraham I, side 1

"I was shocked when I found out who the biggest failure in the Bible actually is....The biggest one in the whole bible is God....I mean, He lost His top-ranking, most anointed angel; the first man He ever created; the first woman He ever created; the whole earth and all the Fullness therein; a third of the angels, at least--that's a big loss, man. . .
Kenneth Copeland, Praise-a-Thon program on TBN [April 1988]

"It wasn't the physical death on the cross that paid the price for sin..anybody could do that"
Kenneth Copeland, What Satan saw on the day of Pentecost

"But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies ..." 2 Pet. 2:1

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PFAI: How clever and double-tongued the devil and his spirits are! -- Sola Scriptura, 06:02:56 11/23/02 Sat

We do believe that those who twist, ignore or change God's Word must be exposed. Those who are hearing false prophets such as those false prophets and false "christs" who are reportedly respsonsible for beginning and then maintaining PFAKE PFAI will not be pleased with those of us who expose them to the Light. No blood on our hands!

Who will stand up for truth regardless of the cost? Don't say "everybody has an opinion". We must learn God's opinion from His Holy Word! His opinion will be our judge, NOT RCC sources and various other traditions of man! Mercy will not cover known, willful sin. Be careful!


Dr. Chambers' response to criticism:

"I constantly get contacts that accuse me of being judgmental. Please read my article about discernment!"

How To Discern False Prophets

The Lord Jesus spoke often about the danger of false prophets and false "christs". His disciples were constantly warning of false teachers and false disciples. Satan’s chief attack against the church has always been to produce a counterfeit. After Satan has produced his counterfeit preachers and prophets, he uses the world to talk about how crazy all Christians are by pointing out the false crowd. How clever and double-tongued the devil and his spirits are in their evil design.

The next time you hear or see a false prophet, just remember that he/she does not represent the true church of Jesus Christ. You can always remember that a Christian acts and lives like a Christian and the false is always the work of Satan to destroy. Do not be discouraged because the devil is doing his job and producing his false disciples. Let us do our job and produce the real and the pure so we can outshine the other crowd.

Error will be seen as error when the truth is seen clearly as the truth. When we hide the truth because somebody is producing the false, then we have helped the devil’s cause. I know too many real Christians to be discouraged about the hypocrites. Jesus warned us that false prophets and false disciples would arise and told us how to know the difference. When somebody says that you are judging, just tell them, "No, I am just inspecting the fruit."

Listen to the Lord of the Church. "Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them." (Matthew 7:15-20).

Remember, you are a fruit inspector. Jackals misuses this and becomes a slanderer. There is a fine line between the two.

PFAKE/PFAI "In 1989 an anointed prophet of God recounted a vision to Rev. Michael Kear, our Founding Bishop, during a Pastor's Meeting at Red Rock, Oklahoma. She said, "I don't know why God is having me share this with you, but I had a vision and in this vision I could see the United States from coast to coast. The whole land lay in darkness. Suddenly, a lighthouse began to emerge from the gloom in Oklahoma. Wherever the light from this lighthouse was shed abroad, other lighthouses began to spring up. And then where they shed their light, still others popped up and they began to spread north, south, east and west until the whole land was covered in light from sea to sea."

From its inception the "latter rain" Pentecostal movement has been characterized by doctrinal heresy, exaggeration, and deception. I realize these are hard words, but the documentation is irrefutable. This is because the first century messianic and apostolic miracles simply are not being performed by Christians today. Those who claim that the apostolic Pentecostal signs have been restored are forced to accept occultic/hypnotic phenomenon such as spirit slaying and drunkenness and soothsaying (which they often call "the word of knowledge) as apostolic signs, or they are forced to exaggerate and prefabricate the alleged signs. This is exactly what we see occurring in the latest manifestation of the latter rain movement. The latter rain movement of the 20th century is literally strewn with the wreckage of spiritual confusion, error, and deception.

PFAI is an example of what the Lord Jesus Christ warned that we are to judge; their teachers by their fruits (Matt. 7:15-18). A movement which claims to be the very fullness of the Holy Spirit, and PFAI a sub-group of that movement but which is literally strewn with false teaching, duplicity, immorality, and lunacy is to be rejected.

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[> PFAI: How clever and double-tongued the devil and his spirits are! -- Sola Scriptura, 21:03:46 11/23/02 Sat

There are godly Pentecostal preachers like Dr. Joseph Chambers of Charlotte, North Carolina, who have taken a strong stand against the insanity of the Dake Bible. I have much respect for Dr. Chambers, though I reject his Pentecostal theology. His congregation lost properties valued at $3 million because they took a stand against unscriptural things in their own denomination, the Church of God (Cleveland, Tennessee), and that denomination took the property from them in a court of law. Though I respect such a stand for truth as they understand it, I believe that the latter rain Pentecostal doctrine and the false teaching about continuing sign gifts is the foundational error which has resulted in the lunacy we will continue to expose along with pretender bishops like Jack Howell, the rogue bedroom bishop of Moore. Along with the person who "ordained" him, Mike Kear. Such comes as no surprise since Kear is a Ken Copeland advance man and champions such other well known raving heretics as:



”Kenneth Copeland Ministries
One of the best resources on the web. You can be enriched in the study area or you can watch videos or listen to teaching on line.”

Pentecostal Faith Assemblies, Inc.
An association of ministers under the leadership of Bishop Jack Howell.

Kenneth Hagin Ministries
One of my favorite places around (in cyberspace or in real life!)


E.W. Kenyon
Faith building books and tapes.

Charles Capps Ministries
Good books and tapes from an Elder Statesman of the "Faith Camp." The simplicity of illustration and depth of truth in Bro. Capps' teaching is invaluable.

All that’s missing are Robert Tilton, John Avanzini, Benny Hinn and Marilyn Hickey!

Have to chuckle, bishop Beezle-Bubba thinks I am posting at Dake. Poor fellow is obsessed with me. Those demons have your pot stirred, do they? Twernt me Jackals. LOL!

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Dolly -- tamarisk, 14:37:25 11/21/02 Thu

WRT--"No wonder Tamarisk is messed up doctrinally, theologically, and spiritually. Such people as this cannot be relied upon to preach the Gospel without compromise and hypocrisy, since he has already compromised the facts of history in order to hang on to his man-made traditions which deny the truth that Paul considered Junia, who was female, as an Apostle (Romans 16:17). Perhaps "Tamarisk" should stick to his janitorial duties and leave preaching the Gospel to men and women who have been called, ordained, and anointed of God to preach."

Here is the error of Rt Rev El Pavo, and his wrong thinking. First of all, his scripture reference is a bit off.


Rom 16:7
7 Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.
(KJV)

Secondly, Jackals, to professed "profit" of the godz, and knower of the Hebrew and Greek shows his wrong thinking once again.

The name may be masculine, Junias, a contraction of Junianus, or feminine Junia; it is Iounian, the accusative. form, that is given.

In all probability this is the masculine, rather than the feminine, Junias. Paul defines the two as:
(1) "my kinsmen,"
(2) "my fellow-prisoners,"
(3) "who are of note among the apostles," and
(4) "who also have been in Christ before me."

The honorable Rt Rev knows NOT the difference when the Talmidim Sh'aul uses "KINSMEN" instead of "KINSFOLK." Check out the 7 occurances of "kinsmen" and 2 of "kinsfolk" in the KJV Bible.

Neither does Jackals understand who or what is a Jew. Jackals would do well to repent of his Jew hating. Of course, the Rt Rev, to make is false and wrong doctrines hold water(he perverts the water in Acts 2:38), he has to exchange "who are of note AMONG the apostles," to "who are apostles."

Jackals has the same problem as Slick Willie has with the word is.

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[> Tamarisk, ACNR, Bethany & The Saints -- Dolly Llama, 20:42:21 11/22/02 Fri

Isn’t it just like a heretic member of the end-time church to take a single obscure passage and devise a whole doctrine around it? These facts are evidence of the apostasy of the hour. Men and women in the world, having rejected Bible truth, are confused about the most basic things. Many men are trying to be like women in dress and manner, while many women are demanding the right to be like men, to dress like men.

Jack looks to the traditions of man to justify his heresy. Of his supposed "sources;" note the ratio of RCC and tradions of men ratio to solid Biblical teaching.

"Rev Jack Howell October 6 2002 at 6:24 AM

1 Aida Besancon Spencer, Beyond the Curse, page 102.
2 Galatians 1:18-24
3 United Bible Societies Handbook Series, (1961-1997) for Romans 16:7
4 Thayer’s Greek Definitions 652 apostolos—a delegate, a messenger, one sent forth with orders a) specifically applied to the twelve apostles of Christ b) in a broader sense, applied to other eminent Christian teachers.
5 Leonard Swidler, Biblical Affirmations of Women, Westminster Press (1979) p. 299
6 Charles Trombley, Who Said Women Can’t Teach, Bridge Publishing (1985) p. 190
7 Catholic Encyclopedia, 1913 edition, article on Pope Boniface VIII
8 New Catholic Encyclopedia, 1967 edition, Vol. 2, article on Pope Boniface VIII
9 From papal bull, Unam Sanctam, Nov. 1302, as quoted in The Encyclopedia of Religion, 1995, Vol. 1, PP 288-289.
10 Elizabeth M. Makowski, Canon Law and Cloistered Women
11 Book review of Women in the Days of the Cathedrals by Regine Pernoud, translated by Anne Cote-Harriss, p. 2.
12 Catholic Encyclopedia, (1913), “Pope Boniface VIII”
13 “Junia”, The Anchor Bible Dictionary, (1992), Vol. 3, p. 1127
14 Women in Scripture, editor Carol Meyers, (2000), article “Junia” by Bernadette J. Brooten, p. 109


Posted by Rev. Jack Howell
November 02, 2002 at 12:32:34:
"I have written 95 points against the catholic church"

But as long as various RCC heresy supports JACK's heresy de jour, what are a few heresies amoung harry-tics???

Picture jackals under the spreading chestnut tree, unaware he is on a red ant mound, with a daisy saying " I love you Rome, I hate you Rome! I love you Rome, I hate you Rome! I love you Rome, I hate you Rome!.....I hate you 95 times! But I LOVE your sources for my heresy! LOL

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Dolly -- tamarisk, 14:10:59 11/22/02 Fri

LOL!!

WRT: "Because the two names (“Andronicus and Junias”) are in the accusative form (that is, they are recipients of the verb greet), the second name appears as Junian, which is the accusative form of the *** feminine name” Junia.” (Hence a FEMALE)"

You ever notice how Rt Rev El Pavo dances around the issue. Iffin he had any knowledge of the Jewishness of the faith and the Hebrew NT, he'd see the folly of his statements. Wonder if Jackals can see the humor of G_d in the statement, "A man from a woman." Y'shua(a man) came from Nazareth(Nazaret in the fem). Thus, Y'shua is a Natsar(a Nazarene) from Nazaret(Nazareth in the fem).

It is amuzing because the most compelling question I have for Jackals is, whom has he led to the Lord with that teaching? I can tell you about the Jewish people I have reached preaching them the Gospel Jewishly. All Jackals can do is reach those as foolish and deluded as himself for NO WHERE does the Bible teach Apostolic Succession. Jackals would rather give the AUTHORITY of the office of an apostle to a woman rather than giving the term apostle to all who bore witness to Mechiach(Acts 14:4,14; 15:2--and even by Sha'ul in 1 Corinthians 11:13; 1 Thess 2:6).

Earth to Jackals--NO PLACE IN SCRIPTURE DOES IT GIVE CONTINUITY OF THE OFFICE OF AN APOSTLE AS IN NO PLACE WHERE THE CHURCHES ARE INSTRUCTED TO ORDAIN APOSTLES.

Lettuce look at another verse of Scripture:

Heb 3:1

1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;
(KJV)

The titles he gives to Christ, whom he would have them consider,
1. As the apostle of our profession, the prime-minister of the gospel church, a messenger and a principal messenger sent of God to men, upon the most important errand, the great revealer of that faith which we profess to hold and of that hope which we profess to have.
2. not only the apostle, but the high priest too, of our profession, the chief officer of the Old Testament as well as the New, the head of the church in every state, and under each dispensation, upon whose satisfaction and intercession we profess to depend for pardon of sin, and acceptance with God.
3. as Christ, the Messiah, anointed and every way qualified for the office both of apostle and high priest.
4. as Jesus, our Saviour, our healer, the great physician of souls, typified by the brazen serpent that Moses lifted up in the wilderness, that those who were stung by the fiery serpents might look to him, and be saved.

Lettuce look at the Strongs references:

649 apostello (ap-os-tel'-lo);

from 575 and 4724; set apart, i.e. (by implication) to send out (properly, on a mission) literally or figuratively:

KJV-- put in, send (away, forth, out), set [at liberty].

652 apostolos (ap-os'-tol-os);

from 649; a delegate; specially, an ambassador of the Gospel; officially a commissioner of Christ ["apostle"] (with miraculous powers):

KJV-- apostle, messenger, he that is sent.

4724 stello (stel'-lo);

probably strengthened from the base of 2476; properly, to set fast ("stall"), i.e. (figuratively) to repress (reflexively, abstain from associating with):

KJV-- avoid, withdrawself.

575 apo (apo');

a primary particle; "off," i.e. away (from something near), in various senses (of place, time, or relation; literal or figurative):

KJV-- (X here-) after, ago, at, because of, before, by (the space of), for (-th), from, in, (out) of, off, (up-) on (-ce), since, with. In composition (as a prefix) it usually denotes separation, departure, cessation, completion, reversal, etc.

2476 histemi (his'-tay-mee);

a prolonged form of a primary stao (stah'-o) (of the same meaning, and used for it in certain tenses); to stand (transitively or intransitively), used in various applications (literally or figuratively):

KJV-- abide, appoint, bring, continue, covenant, establish, hold up, lay, present, set (up), stanch, stand (by, forth, still, up). Compare 5087.

5087 tithemi (tith'-ay-mee);

a prolonged form of a primary theo (theh'-o) (which is used only as alternate in certain tenses); to place (in the widest application, literally and figuratively; properly, in a passive or horizontal posture, and thus different from 2476, which properly denotes an upright and active position, while 2749 is properly reflexive and utterly prostrate):

KJV-- + advise, appoint, bow, commit, conceive, give, X kneel down, lay (aside, down, up), make, ordain, purpose, put, set (forth), settle, sink down.

What is apparent from the lies of Jackals is, he is trying to make a case for Apostolic Succession today. This is obvious from his Ultra-Charismatic, Word of Faith perversion of the Book. Jackals still proves himself to be a Jew hater and needs to confess and repent of this before the Lord. When he makes a statement such as "Junia was a Christian at Rome," he fails to add the Jewish before Christian to indicate she was a "kinsmen" to Sha'ul in the sense she was a fellow Jewish believer of Y'shua.

Now, lettuce look at another word in Romans 16:7 which seems to give the Rt Rev fits. It is the word "among."

802 'ishshah (ish-shaw');

feminine of 376 or 582; irregular plural, nashiym (naw-sheem'); a woman (used in the same wide sense as 582):

KJV-- [adulter] ess, each, every, female, X many, + none, one, + together, wife, woman. Often unexpressed in English.

1722 en (en);

a primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), i.e. a relation of rest (intermediate between 1519 and 1537); "in," at, (up-) on, by, etc.:

KJV-- about, after, against, + almost, X altogether, among, X as, at, before, between, (here-) by (+all means), for (... sake of), + giveself wholly to, (here-) in (-to, -wardly), X mightily, (because) of, (up-) on, [openly-], X outwardly, one, X quickly, X shortly, [speedily-], X that, X there (-in, -on), through (-out), (un-) to (-ward), under, when, where (-with), while, with (-in). Often used in compounds, with substantially the same import; rarely with verbs of motion, and then not to indicate direction, except (elliptically) by a separate (and different) preposition.

1135 gune (goo-nay');

probably from the base of 1096; a woman; specially, a wife:

KJV-- wife, woman.

Maybe, just maybe, Jackals can figure out the 6 references in the Tanakh always renders it "among women, and the B'rit Hadashah(The Jewish New Testament) in its 2 occurences renders it "among" and "women" separately.

Jackals false "teachings" on who and what is an apostle while trying to make his case for Apostolic Succession and women in the office of Apostle, is from the pit of Hell. Neither is it keeping with the context of Chapter 16 of the Book of Romans.

I guess I can throw out Strongs references all day, just like Jackals. However, it proves nothing and certainly is not the Gospel of Y'shua. Jackals would do well to preach the simple message of Sha'ul, in chapter 13 of greetings and love expressed. What a lovely way of proclaiming the Gospel of Y'shua--Giving the honor and glory to the Lord, first through His Gospel Truth,--and recognizing his friends and co-laborers in that truth, lastly.

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[> Tamarisk, re Rt. Rev. "HE IS PROUD, KNOWING NOTHING" Thus sayeth the WORD -- Sola Scriptura, 20:09:21 11/22/02 Fri

Although they claimed to be wise, he is nothing but a vain jangler.

You having a problem, thar, harry-tic with being consistent? That's why Christians use the Bible as their authority. Consistency, Old Chap. If you were a Bible, you would have changed what you believe over a MILLION times in just 1000 years, thar, dude. That's why everyone familiar with your Mercurial temperament knows without reservation, that you are a raving lunatic and heretic! NO STABILITY. NO CHURCH. NO WIFE. NO FAMILY. NO FRIENDS.....JUST OKLAHOMA COW CHIPS, DEAR THUNDER BOTTOM. LOL!

The Bible speaks too clearly on this subject for there to be any confusion. The problem is that churches too often are looking to sources other than the Bible for guidance. The Rt. Rev. who claims he is ” called, ordained, and anointed” (implicit is his superiority to other men) uses his father, the debil’s dialectical devise of falsely accusing others of doing precisely what he is doing. It is all part of Jackie’s dialectical hand jive when he impugns innocent others of applying ”the man-made traditions” when it is actually the Rt. Rev., himself who is up to his double chins in Roman Catholic sources for his heresy of women bishops. We have chronicled this fact various times including posts below that are taken from Rt. Rev.’s own quotes and sources.

“Let the woman learn in silence, with all subjection. But I do not allow a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, was in the transgression” (1 Tim. 2:11-14).

“Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak: but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also says the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only? If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord” (1 Cor. 14:34-37).

How could a woman possibly be a pastor when she is forbidden to teach or to have any authority over men? Women can only be pastors if they openly disobey the Bible’s teaching.

Further, the Lord Jesus Christ appointed no female apostles.

All of them were men.

The standards for pastors apply strictly to men.
Only a man can be the “husband of one wife” and can “rule his own house well” (1 Tim. 3:2,4; Titus 1:6).
Paul referred to human nature to support his teaching regarding women. “And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression” (1 Tim. 2:14). The woman has a different makeup than the man. She was designed for a different role in life--that of a wife and mother. Her emotional, psychological, and rational makeup are geared perfectly for this, but she was not designed for leadership. In the garden of Eden the devil deceived her.

This was not true for Adam. He sinned, but he was not deceived. Eve had allowed herself to be thrust into a position of decision making she was not supposed to occupy.

It is no coincidence that women have been responsible for starting many of the false Christian movements and have played key roles in spiritism, new age, mind science cults, and such. Human nature has not changed and neither has God’s restrictions against women preachers.

Paul commanded that his instructions were to be kept until Christ’s coming. “That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ” (1 Tim. 6:14). This command is given at the end of the epistle in which the Apostle had so clearly required that women be in subjection to men in the church (1 Tim. 2:9-15). Since Jesus has not yet appeared, we are to continue to maintain these restrictions.

Paul’s letter to Corinth, in which he spoke of women being in subjection to men, was for all Christians, not just those in Corinth. In his introduction to this epistle the Apostle tells us plainly to whom he is speaking: “Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, WITH ALL THAT IN EVERY PLACE CALL UPON THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD, both their’s and our’s” (1 Cor. 1:2). It is clear that Paul’s instructions were not intended merely for some peculiar situation at Corinth.

Galatians 3:28 says there is neither bond nor free in Christ, other passages teach that this does not mean there are no servant/master relationships. The Christian servant is free in Christ--free from the eternal wages of sin--but he is not free from his earthly position and responsibilities of servitude toward his master (Eph. 6:5-8; Col. 3:22-25; 1 Tim. 6:1,2; Tit. 2:9-10; 1 Pet. 2:18-25).

In fact, anyone who teaches against these instructions regarding submission of servants to masters is labeled proud and evil:

“Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honour, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed. And they that have believing masters, let them not despise them, because they are brethren; but rather do them service, because they are faithful and beloved, partakers of the benefit. These things teach and exhort. IF ANY MAN TEACH OTHERWISE, AND CONSENT NOT TO WHOLESOME WORDS, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; HE IS PROUD, KNOWING NOTHING, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, perverse disputings of men of CORRUPT MINDS, AND DESTITUTE OF THE TRUTH, supposing that gain is godliness: FROM SUCH WITHDRAW THYSELF” (1 Timothy 6:1-5).

Rt. Rev. Jack Howell is a PROUD VAIN JANGLER who knows nothing. Pray that he is mercifully placed on track before it is too late. Repent of your heresy jack.

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ACNR/Dolly/Bethany -- tamarisk, 08:56:06 11/22/02 Fri

Having been throughly amused by the Mags/Lilith debate on "baptism" at R1D2 this AM, I offer these verses of Scripture.

1 Cor 1:13-31
13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
(KJV)

A question to Rt Rev El Pavo, Mags, Lilith and others lost in false and wrong doctrines of men and Hell. What is the message of the Great Commission?

Matt 28:18-20
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
(KJV)

Those lost in THEIR "Holy Ghost" experience, never seem to get G_d's order in His salvation message.

"For the JEWS require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom. But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men."

I would ask--"Who is the Jew among them which require an outward sign of speaking in tongues?" If they are not Jews, then they are Greeks and THEIR "wisdom" places the same stumblingblock in their path as a snare.

The Jackals, Mags, Lilith cult need those outward signs to preach their false doctrines of demons. Unless you are a compromising, Neo-Fundamentalist who has made a non-aggression pact from Hell, they are from Hell because they attempt to decieve and destroy men with hellish teachings.

Where does Sh'aul preach water baptism equals salvation?

Earth to whomever. Iffin ya'll have ever attended a Jewish Synagogue and became familiar with Jewish Law, you would understand John's Baptism. John's Baptism, by water, is practiced in the Synagogue for those wishing to convert to Judaism. Jews have the plan of salvation in the Tanakh and in their "tradition." However, they don't believe Y'shua has come to free them from the curse of their sin.

Having Apostolic teaching and commission is one thing. You can baptize tens of thousands, like Mormonism and other cultic religions practicing "baptismal regeneration." That doesn't put you under the blood stained Cross of Calvary, however. Believing is yet another.

Another question for the Mags/Jackals cult. I have asked Mormons and RC's similar questions before. Can I be considered a Mormon if I don't believe Joey Smith was a true prophet of G_d? If I don't believe the Book of Mormon is "inspired" scripture? Can I be considered a "good" Catholic if I believe the "Catholic" version of Mary is from the pit of Hell? If I don't believe in their teachings on purgatory, their "white wafer god," etc?

Can I be considered an "Apostolic" Pentecostal or "Spirit-Filled" if I don't believe I need to be water baptized with the evidence of speaking on some, unknown tongue?

Having attended 3 Pentecostal Churches in the past(One Apostolic, one middle of the road Pentecostal, the last a Charismatic Messianic Congregation), I know the routine. They start out the service by perverting the sanctuary of the Lord by making it a social club. Then, they sing 3 fast songs to get the congregation stirred up into a frenzy by dancing, shouting, etc. Then, they sing 3 slow songs designed to "raise holy hands," incite tear shedding, etc.

You rarely hear a true Gospel message in these type of churches, though you will be reminded for those needing "salvation," "we have warm water" and "people available to baptize you." I have stood by the side of the baptismal tank on a few occasions and have seen the overt coaching going on. Just say any type of gibberish because they don't follow doctrinal truth for interpretation anyway. No one in attendance will be able to discern what you say anyway. They can't because they were all water batized by the same perversion of Acts 2:38.

Be very aware of these cultish practices in Pentecostal/Charismatic/Vineyard(Third Wave Pentecostals) Movements. Then comes the mostly Preterist Lighthouse Association of Churches.

When you decide to visit a church or are looking for a church, don't make the Lilith mistake. Oh, Lilith would like people to know she was following my advice for finding a church. My advice was to call the pastor of the church, first.(something she could not do in a Quaker congregation) Let that man earn his money by inviting you to meet with him outside the church house setting. If you are not saved, he needs to give you the Gospel message BEFORE you are ever invited to church. True Missionary/Evangelists should be doing their work out on the sidewalks of AmeriKa and NOT in the church. The major place for instruction of the Saints of G_d is in the home. Church can be anywhere but there is no requirement to go to a building on Sunday for fellowship. Only that you gather together with those of LIKE, PRECIOUS Faith.(2 Peter 1:1)

Shabbot Shalom! Keep looking UP!

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NEWS ON THE METSPHYSICS NEW AGE & MINDER FRONT -- Sola Scriptura, 11:21:12 11/20/02 Wed

Do, do, doo, do…..Twilight Zone Music…….

minder In Response To Ctaj
Wednesday November 20, 2002 at 12:55

" Care to translate what ATTN and AWAR are?"
Boy, you are a good student... I always asked the professor to explain terms he had created to refer to something he could not otherwise explain. Of course ATTN and AWAR are simply labels. They refer to two aspects of Consciousness that I have observed which normally manifest themselves via the MIND and thence, the brain, as attention and awareness. In order to suggest that I am referring to the origin of these manifested dimensions rather than their stepped-down observable expressions on the physical plane, I use ATTN and AWAR. The actual difference is vibrational, relative to the plane through which each is operating.

A man went into his shrink's office and says,
"Doc, you have got to help me! Every night I keep dreaming that I'm a sports car. The other night I dreamed I was a Trans Am. Another night I dreamed I was an Alpha Romeo. Last night I dreamed I was a Porsche. What does this mean?"

"Relax," MINDER says, "You're just having an auto-body experience."

________________________________

MINDER'S NEW AGE LULLABY

Hush little baby don't you squall
Momma's gonna buy you a crystal ball.

And if you still can't see beyond
Momma's gonna buy you a magic wand.

And if that wand don't change your fate
Momma's gonna teach you to levitate.

And if the astral makes you sick,
Momma's gonna buy you an incense stick.

And if that patchouli smells too rank
She'll buy you a sensory deprivation tank.

And if that tank don't float your bones
Momma's gonna buy you some precious stones.

And if those gems don't ease your heart
Momma's gonna buy you a natal chart.

And if your planets go berserk
Momma's gonna buy you some bodywork.

And if your aura still needs kneading
Momma's gonna buy you a past life reading.

And if your destiny stays hid
Momma's gonna buy you a pyramid.

And if your chakras still feel stressed
Momma's gonna take you on a vision quest.

And if power animals don't come to charm ya
Sorry, kid, it's just your karma.

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[> Minder's a Joke from beyond the Far Side -- Dolly Llama, 15:56:14 11/20/02 Wed

What do you get when you cross a Zen Buddhist and a Druid
veternarian?

Someone who worships the bark of the tree that is not there.

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Dolly -- tamarisk, 12:50:00 11/20/02 Wed

WRT--"Subject: It Looks Like The Pentecostals Are OBEYING The Bible, and Baptists Like Sola Aren't"

Splain to me again, just why he attends a "Baptist" church in Ponca City, OK. But wait! Were they not the ones recently "anointing" him with a "Call to the Gospel Ministry," paper? Seems they're Jackals type of "Baptists." El Pavo Loco, the lot of them!

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[> Tamarisk & Saints: - Hand Jive! Jack's Doin' Dat Crazy Hand Jive! -- Dolly Llama, 13:44:01 11/20/02 Wed


A-HA! You liked that ditty too! Great wasn’t it?

Here’s the deal, (as you know!)

Discerning Christians such as our selves smile in amusement at such Satanic dialectical gibberish; but the fact is, that if every single sentence of Heretic Howell’s was parsed it would be so time consuming we would never be able to attend to our ministries of spreading the Gospel of Christ. Which illustrates perfectly why we maintain with credibility that Rev. Beezle-Bubba is in the watch pocket of his parent, LUCY FUR!

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[> Tamarisk & Saints: - Hand Jive! Jack's Doin' Dat Crazy Hand Jive! -- Dolly Llama, 13:45:13 11/20/02 Wed


A-HA! You liked that ditty too! Great wasn’t it?

Here’s the deal, (as you know!)

Discerning Christians such as our selves smile in amusement at such Satanic dialectical gibberish; but the fact is, that if every single sentence of Heretic Howell’s was parsed it would be so time consuming we would never be able to attend to our ministries of spreading the Gospel of Christ. Which illustrates perfectly why we maintain with credibility that Rev. Beezle-Bubba is in the watch pocket of his parent, LUCY FUR!

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Char's HOAX Swan Song Turned Into An UGLY DUCKLING -- Wet Hen, 08:42:48 11/20/02 Wed

Something about “Char” has never rung true. She is a bit too dishonest, overbearing, and quite self-seeking to suit this traveler. Here is an example.

Author: Char
Date Posted: 20:33:12 09/01/02 Sun

“Well, tonight is the last night for at least a year that you will see me in print on the boards. (ala: “Well you won’t have Nixon around to kick any more….” LOL)
Char continues her swan song: ”I would like to leave a very simple message regarding "Christians" (meaning those who follow Christ) for those who are, and those who are not....

Fruits... they are the only evidence that should accompany a testimony for proof of one's claim.

Not everyone who claims Christ is a follower of Christ, and to those who do follow Him...
I will be here and on the other board until around midnight, after which time, you can feel free to e-mail me any time…… this night is the last night you will see my name as the author of a posting on the boards.” Char :o)

At the time, Char did one of these “ONLY 41 SHOPPING DAYS LEFT ‘TIL CHRISTMAS!!!!” ala “BETTER ENJOY ME NOW BECAUSE AT THE STROKE OF THE - ME-BE-A-WITCHY HOUR, I MOUNTS DAT BROOM THANGY OVER THAR AND I’M HISTOIRE Y’ALL!” sorts of taunts on a routine basis on several boards while she was drinking all the attention from those she basically lied to and she taunted with a FAKE exit routine.

“Youz da Momma, Char! Gee, weez sur gonna miss ya Char…..we need your horrible un-discerning expository…who’s gunna act superior on these boards and boss everyone around if you aren’t here? Pleeeze don’t ever change, see ya next Summer, yer a swell gurl….and, and, …and remember what we did under the bleachers at the Sr Prom?? Tee hee…that thang you did in biology class with the fetal pig was a hoot…..what kind of mind thinks up them thangs?”

…..remember, ……” this night is the last night you will see my name as the author of a posting on the boards.” Char :o)

Maybe looking at dori’s board will give an indication as to wht Char doesn’t ring true with me. She not only manipulated everyone and jerked them around for weeks prior to the false exit with disingenuous threats of “leaving for a year;” she is NOW in high gear at http://www.voy.com/84031/ which Char seems to have actually commandeered!


What are some Char 05:13:04 11/20/02 Wed 2

Hi Connie! Char 16:24:06 11/14/02 Thu 44

Re: Hi Connie! -- Char, 22:44:07 11/14/02 Thu

Re: Hi Connie! PS -- Char, 23:05:39 11/14/02 Thu

Re: Hi Jeanette! :o) -- Char, 09:19:04 11/15/02 Fri
Re: Hi Jeanette! :o) -- Char, 21:01:15 11/15/02 Fri
Re: Hi Jeanette :o) -- Char, 07:05:03 11/16/02 Sat
Re: Hi Jeanette! :o) -- Char, 12:37:20 11/17/02 Sun
Re: Hi Jeanette :o) -- Char, 20:34:10 11/17/02 Sun
Re: Jeanette -- Char, 04:45:32 11/18/02 Mon
Re: Hello, everyone HI Back! :o) -- Char :o), 18:43:20 11/16/02 Sat
Re: Hello, everyone HI Sharon! :o) -- Char, 12:53:40 11/17/02 Sun
Re: Hello, everyone HI Sharon! :o) -- Char, 16:46:46 11/17/02 Sun
Re: Hello, everyone HI Sharon! :o) Afternoon folks! -- Char, 04:58:25 11/19/02 Tue
Re: Jeanette -- Char, 07:54:42 11/18/02 Mon
Re: Goo'day Jeanette! -- Char, 11:21:20 11/19/02 Tue
Re: Hi Jeanette -- Char, 17:55:29 11/19/02 Tue
Hi Sandy! :o) -- Char, 12:12:28 11/16/02 Sat
Re: Hi Connie! -- Char, 07:18:02 11/16/02 Sat
Re: Pre-Tribulation rapture Hi GerryB -- Char, 07:20:10 11/16/02 Sat
Re: Hey there, gang! -- Char, 18:59:38 11/17/02 Sun
Re: Hey there, gang! -- Char, 20:36:08 11/17/02 Sun
Re: Hey there, Char! -- Char, 04:43:18 11/18/02 Mon
A thought... Char 13:51:54 11/10/02 Sun 21
Hi Connie & Dori :o) -- Char, 18:49:39 11/10/02 Sun
Re: A thought... Hi Bill :o) -- Char, 18:53:50 11/10/02 Sun
Re: A thought... Hi Bill :o) -- Char, 08:17:18 11/11/02 Mon
HEY!! :o) -- Char, 08:24:45 11/11/02 Mon
Re: HEY!! :o) -- Char, 10:59:53 11/11/02 Mon
Hi Connie! -- Char, 14:55:01 11/11/02 Mon
Re: A thought... GerryB -- Char, 11:29:15 11/14/02 Thu
Re: A thought... GerryB -- Char, 12:18:15 11/16/02 Sat
But Dori -- Char, 04:51:32 11/13/02 Wed
Re: No Buts.... -- Char, 12:37:00 11/13/02 Wed
Re: Bible has all answers -- HI Dori! :o) -- Char, 09:22:02 11/14/02 Thu
Re: Bible has all answers -- HI Connie! :o) -- Char, 11:22:41 11/14/02 Thu
Job Revisited Char :o) 13:02:36 11/08/02 Fri 12
Re: Job Revisited -- Jeanette -- Char, 15:12:17 11/09/02 Sat
Re: Job Revisited -- Jeanette -- Char, 08:15:23 11/11/02 Mon
Re: Job Revisited -- Jeanette -- Char, 06:12:23 11/12/02 Tue
Re: Sounds Good To Me! -- Char, 18:46:12 11/07/02 Thu
Re: Great, char! -- Char, 06:36:42 11/08/02 Fri
Re: Great, char! -- Char, 12:45:38 11/08/02 Fri
To refresh our memory, this is what Char said:
……” this night is the last night you will see my name as the author of a posting on the boards.” Char :o)

”May your fruits be evident in Him, through Him and with Him to all those who's lives you have an oportunity to reveal Him to. iHis Char :o)”

Where are all those flies at dori’s coming from????? Indeed.

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Dolly -- tamarisk, 07:25:21 11/20/02 Wed

Was just skimming over your post concerning Rt Rev El Pavo and his posting concerning women in ministry. I skimmed because most of his references were "Catholic" in nature.

It is interesting he would use RCC sources and resources for his debate. In RCC land, the Priest is the representative of Christ on earth. He is perfected through transubsantiation. Even a pedophile priest can perform the "miracle" of changing the elements of the Lord's Supper literally into the body and blood of the Lord.

Nuns perform the function of being Mary's representative on earth. It is symbolic for the sexual union between G_d and Mary, thus, creating Jesus.

So, Jackals using references to "prove" is case for women in the pulpit by the false godz of Romanism is laughable. Should there be women in the church, being used by G_d, to teach? Yes? However, does the Bible ever teach women having authority over men. We can find a few instances of prophetesses and, even, a female judge(Deborah--Judges 4;5). Even Ruth was used by G_d for the good of the Jewish people.

For Jackals to make his argument, he must then admit the weakness of the men in those ministries. There must be no righteous men found to allow a woman to be pastor of a church. That is a great condemnation against that church and those claiming oversight of those ministries.

Think about it Jack. What does that say about the spiritual state of the "men" in those churches?

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[> Greetings! Tamarisk: Discerning Eyes Know Where To Look, Don't They? -- Dolly Llama, 08:34:46 11/20/02 Wed

>Was just skimming over your post concerning Rt Rev El
>Pavo and his posting concerning women in ministry. I
>skimmed because most of his references were "Catholic"
>in nature.....

I never read it myself for much the same reason. Discerning eyes learn to dart for the salient flaws, don't they? It is fun to watch him use Satan's dialectic when the fact that his sources are RCC and the traditions of man. He will stand toe to toe with his opposition and claim with a straight face that they do not cite scripture when pointing out to Flappy that his justification for women ministers in a pagan source...now follow me here....those who dispute his RCC sources are: "Following the traditions of man and not scriptural." He is one very SLIMY vermin.

He is the supreme Pharisee hypocritter in flowing purple....eh-hem.

Look here: http://www.eboards4all.com/049389/index.html
(of course Jack also stole this from other sources and specifically claims authorship is another matter. No one ever accused Jack of Honesty and Integrity!) Point being...reconciling his women ministers words with his sources for it and the post below.


Posted by Rev. Jack Howell on November 02, 2002 at 12:32:34:
I have written 95 points against the catholic church

OCTOBER 31, 1517

1. Our Lord and Master Jesus Christ, when He said Poenitentiam agite, willed that the whole life of believers should be repentance.

2. This word cannot be understood to mean sacramental penance, i.e., confession and satisfaction, which is administered by the priests.

3. Yet it means not inward repentance only; nay, there is no inward repentance which does not outwardly work divers mortifications of the flesh.

4. The penalty [of sin], therefore, continues so long as hatred of self continues; for this is the true inward repentance, and continues until our entrance into the kingdom of heaven.

5. The pope does not intend to remit, and cannot remit any penalties other than those which he has imposed either by his own authority or by that of the Canons.

6. The pope cannot remit any guilt, except by declaring that it has been remitted by God and by assenting to God's remission; though, to be sure, he may grant remission in cases reserved to his judgment. If his right to grant remission in such cases were despised, the guilt would remain entirely unforgiven.

7. God remits guilt to no one whom He does not, at the same time, humble in all things and bring into subjection to His vicar, the priest.

8. The penitential canons are imposed only on the living, and, according to them, nothing should be imposed on the dying.

9. Therefore the Holy Spirit in the pope is kind to us, because in his decrees he always makes exception of the article of death and of necessity.

10. Ignorant and wicked are the doings of those priests who, in the case of the dying, reserve canonical penances for purgatory.

11. This changing of the canonical penalty to the penalty of purgatory is quite evidently one of the tares that were sown while the bishops slept.

12. In former times the canonical penalties were imposed not after, but before absolution, as tests of true contrition.

13. The dying are freed by death from all penalties; they are already dead to canonical rules, and have a right to be released from them.

14. The imperfect health [of soul], that is to say, the imperfect love, of the dying brings with it, of necessity, great fear; and the smaller the love, the greater is the fear.

15. This fear and horror is sufficient of itself alone (to say nothing of other things) to constitute the penalty of purgatory, since it is very near to the horror of despair.

16. Hell, purgatory, and heaven seem to differ as do despair, almost-despair, and the assurance of safety.

17. With souls in purgatory it seems necessary that horror should grow less and love increase.

18. It seems unproved, either by reason or Scripture, that they are outside the state of merit, that is to say, of increasing love.

19. Again, it seems unproved that they, or at least that all of them, are certain or assured of their own blessedness, though we may be quite certain of it.

20. Therefore by "full remission of all penalties" the pope means not actually "of all," but only of those imposed by himself.

21. Therefore those preachers of indulgences are in error, who say that by the pope's indulgences a man is freed from every penalty, and saved;

22. Whereas he remits to souls in purgatory no penalty which, according to the canons, they would have had to pay in this life.

23. If it is at all possible to grant to any one the remission of all penalties whatsoever, it is certain that this remission can be granted only to the most perfect, that is, to the very fewest.

24. It must needs be, therefore, that the greater part of the people are deceived by that indiscriminate and highsounding promise of release from penalty.

25. The power which the pope has, in a general way, over purgatory, is just like the power which any bishop or curate has, in a special way, within his own diocese or parish.

26. The pope does well when he grants remission to souls [in purgatory], not by the power of the keys (which he does not possess), but by way of intercession.

27. They preach man who say that so soon as the penny jingles into the money-box, the soul flies out [of purgatory].

28. It is certain that when the penny jingles into the money-box, gain and avarice can be increased, but the result of the intercession of the Church is in the power of God alone.

29. Who knows whether all the souls in purgatory wish to be bought out of it, as in the legend of Sts. Severinus and Paschal.

30. No one is sure that his own contrition is sincere; much less that he has attained full remission.

31. Rare as is the man that is truly penitent, so rare is also the man who truly buys indulgences, i.e., such men are most rare.

32. They will be condemned eternally, together with their teachers, who believe themselves sure of their salvation because they have letters of pardon.

33. Men must be on their guard against those who say that the pope's pardons are that inestimable gift of God by which man is reconciled to Him;

34. For these "graces of pardon" concern only the penalties of sacramental satisfaction, and these are appointed by man.

35. They preach no Christian doctrine who teach that contrition is not necessary in those who intend to buy souls out of purgatory or to buy confessionalia.

36. Every truly repentant Christian has a right to full remission of penalty and guilt, even without letters of pardon.

37. Every true Christian, whether living or dead, has part in all the blessings of Christ and the Church; and this is granted him by God, even without letters of pardon.

38. Nevertheless, the remission and participation [in the blessings of the Church] which are granted by the pope are in no way to be despised, for they are, as I have said, the declaration of divine remission.

39. It is most difficult, even for the very keenest theologians, at one and the same time to commend to the people the abundance of pardons and [the need of] true contrition.

40. True contrition seeks and loves penalties, but liberal pardons only relax penalties and cause them to be hated, or at least, furnish an occasion [for hating them].

41. Apostolic pardons are to be preached with caution, lest the people may falsely think them preferable to other good works of love.

42. Christians are to be taught that the pope does not intend the buying of pardons to be compared in any way to works of mercy.

43. Christians are to be taught that he who gives to the poor or lends to the needy does a better work than buying pardons;

44. Because love grows by works of love, and man becomes better; but by pardons man does not grow better, only more free from penalty.

45. Christians are to be taught that he who sees a man in need, and passes him by, and gives [his money] for pardons, purchases not the indulgences of the pope, but the indignation of God.

46. Christians are to be taught that unless they have more than they need, they are bound to keep back what is necessary for their own families, and by no means to squander it on pardons.

47. Christians are to be taught that the buying of pardons is a matter of free will, and not of commandment.

48. Christians are to be taught that the pope, in granting pardons, needs, and therefore desires, their devout prayer for him more than the money they bring.

49. Christians are to be taught that the pope's pardons are useful, if they do not put their trust in them; but altogether harmful, if through them they lose their fear of God.

50. Christians are to be taught that if the pope knew the exactions of the pardon-preachers, he would rather that St. Peter's church should go to ashes, than that it should be built up with the skin, flesh and bones of his sheep.

51. Christians are to be taught that it would be the pope's wish, as it is his duty, to give of his own money to very many of those from whom certain hawkers of pardons cajole money, even though the church of St. Peter might have to be sold.

52. The assurance of salvation by letters of pardon is vain, even though the commissary, nay, even though the pope himself, were to stake his soul upon it.

53. They are enemies of Christ and of the pope, who bid the Word of God be altogether silent in some Churches, in order that pardons may be preached in others.

54. Injury is done the Word of God when, in the same sermon, an equal or a longer time is spent on pardons than on this Word.

55. It must be the intention of the pope that if pardons, which are a very small thing, are celebrated with one bell, with single processions and ceremonies, then the Gospel, which is the very greatest thing, should be preached with a hundred bells, a hundred processions, a hundred ceremonies.

56. The "treasures of the Church," out of which the pope grants indulgences, are not sufficiently named or known among the people of Christ.

57. That they are not temporal treasures is certainly evident, for many of the vendors do not pour out such treasures so easily, but only gather them.

58. Nor are they the merits of Christ and the Saints, for even without the pope, these always work grace for the inner man, and the cross, death, and hell for the outward man.

59. St. Lawrence said that the treasures of the Church were the Church's poor, but he spoke according to the usage of the word in his own time.

60. Without rashness we say that the keys of the Church, given by Christ's merit, are that treasure;

61. For it is clear that for the remission of penalties and of reserved cases, the power of the pope is of itself sufficient.

62. The true treasure of the Church is the Most Holy Gospel of the glory and the grace of God.

63. But this treasure is naturally most odious, for it makes the first to be last.

64. On the other hand, the treasure of indulgences is naturally most acceptable, for it makes the last to be first.

65. Therefore the treasures of the Gospel are nets with which they formerly were wont to fish for men of riches.

66. The treasures of the indulgences are nets with which they now fish for the riches of men.

67. The indulgences which the preachers cry as the "greatest graces" are known to be truly such, in so far as they promote gain.

68. Yet they are in truth the very smallest graces compared with the grace of God and the piety of the Cross.

69. Bishops and curates are bound to admit the commissaries of apostolic pardons, with all reverence.

70. But still more are they bound to strain all their eyes and attend with all their ears, lest these men preach their own dreams instead of the commission of the pope.

71 . He who speaks against the truth of apostolic pardons, let him be anathema and accursed!

72. But he who guards against the lust and license of the pardon-preachers, let him be blessed!

73. The pope justly thunders against those who, by any art, contrive the injury of the traffic in pardons.

74. But much more does he intend to thunder against those who use the pretext of pardons to contrive the injury of holy love and truth.

75. To think the papal pardons so great that they could absolve a man even if he had committed an impossible sin and violated the Mother of God -- this is madness.

76. We say, on the contrary, that the papal pardons are not able to remove the very least of venial sins, so far as its guilt is concerned.

77. It is said that even St. Peter, if he were now Pope, could not bestow greater graces; this is blasphemy against St. Peter and against the pope.

78. We say, on the contrary, that even the present pope, and any pope at all, has greater graces at his disposal; to wit, the Gospel, powers, gifts of healing, etc., as it is written in I. Corinthians xii.

79. To say that the cross, emblazoned with the papal arms, which is set up [by the preachers of indulgences], is of equal worth with the Cross of Christ, is blasphemy.

80. The bishops, curates and theologians who allow such talk to be spread among the people, will have an account to render.

81. This unbridled preaching of pardons makes it no easy matter, even for learned men, to rescue the reverence due to the pope from slander, or even from the shrewd questionings of the laity.

82. To wit: -- "Why does not the pope empty purgatory, for the sake of holy love and of the dire need of the souls that are there, if he redeems an infinite number of souls for the sake of miserable money with which to build a Church? The former reasons would be most just; the latter is most trivial."

83. Again: -- "Why are mortuary and anniversary masses for the dead continued, and why does he not return or permit the withdrawal of the endowments founded on their behalf, since it is wrong to pray for the redeemed?"

84. Again: -- "What is this new piety of God and the pope, that for money they allow a man who is impious and their enemy to buy out of purgatory the pious soul of a friend of God, and do not rather, because of that pious and beloved soul's own need, free it for pure love's sake?"

85. Again: -- "Why are the penitential canons long since in actual fact and through disuse abrogated and dead, now satisfied by the granting of indulgences, as though they were still alive and in force?"

86. Again: -- "Why does not the pope, whose wealth is to-day greater than the riches of the richest, build just this one church of St. Peter with his own money, rather than with the money of poor believers?"

87. Again: -- "What is it that the pope remits, and what participation does he grant to those who, by perfect contrition, have a right to full remission and participation?"

88. Again: -- "What greater blessing could come to the Church than if the pope were to do a hundred times a day what he now does once, and bestow on every believer these remissions and participations?"

89. "Since the pope, by his pardons, seeks the salvation of souls rather than money, why does he suspend the indulgences and pardons granted heretofore, since these have equal efficacy?"

90. To repress these arguments and scruples of the laity by force alone, and not to resolve them by giving reasons, is to expose the Church and the pope to the ridicule of their enemies, and to make Christians unhappy.

91. If, therefore, pardons were preached according to the spirit and mind of the pope, all these doubts would be readily resolved; nay, they would not exist.

92. Away, then, with all those prophets who say to the people of Christ, "Peace, peace," and there is no peace!

93. Blessed be all those prophets who say to the people of Christ, "Cross, cross," and there is no cross!

94. Christians are to be exhorted that they be diligent in following Christ, their Head, through penalties, deaths, and hell;

95. And thus be confident of entering into heaven rather through many tribulations, than through the assurance of peace.

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ACNR/Dolly/Bethany -- tamarisk, 07:35:10 11/20/02 Wed

GerryB.
In Response To Margaret
Tuesday November 19, 2002 at 23:38

"RE: Moabites and Ammonites.
These were both races of pagans which made war on the Hebrews until God helped the Jews defeat them. Descendants of both races are making war or planning to make war on Israel at the present time."

Remember GellyB, those tribes were there because of the failure of the tribes of Israel to fully and completely drive them out of the land. Do a search as to who they are descended from and who are their godz.

Again GellyB, it was the failure of the people of Israel to do all that Moses and Joshua, the true prophets and teachers before the Lord, commanded them. Remember that in your dealings with those you have made a pact with on R1D2.

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The FDA Finially Gets One Right! -- Sola Scriptura, 20:17:09 11/19/02 Tue

Reuters
UPDATE - U.S. FDA warns Applied Digital on chip implant
Tuesday November 19, 6:19 pm ET

(Adds company comment, updates stock price)
WASHINGTON, Nov 19 (Reuters) - Applied Digital Solutions Inc. (NasdaqSC:ADSX - News) has improperly marketed its implanted microchip for medical uses, U.S. regulators warned in a letter made public on Tuesday.

The VeriChip is a scannable device, implanted under the skin, that contains a unique verification number. The company has said the chip has a variety of "security, financial, emergency identification and other applications."

The U.S. Food and Drug Administration ruled in October that it would not regulate the VeriChip as a medical device unless it was sold for medical applications, such as providing access to information to assist with diagnosis or treatment.

In the letter dated Nov. 8, the FDA said it "had understood from ADS's repeated assurances" that the company had no immediate intention of marketing the chip for medical uses without first consulting the agency.

"We now see that ADS has resumed its marketing of the VeriChip for precisely these applications," said the FDA letter.

Applied Digital Solutions President Scott Silverman, in a statement, said the company "has advised the FDA it is not marketing the VeriChip as a medical device or for medical applications."

The letter, posted on the FDA Web site on Tuesday, was written by Philip Frappaolo, acting director of the compliance office in the FDA's Center for Devices and Radiological Health.

"ADS's conduct flagrantly disregards FDA's prior comprehensive advice," the letter added.

The FDA ordered the Palm Beach, Florida-based company to correct the marketing violations immediately.

"If ADS continues to market the VeriChip for medical applications, FDA is entitled to initiate enforcement action without further informal notice," the letter said.

Such actions may include seizing the product, preventing the company from further marketing the VeriChip or civil monetary penalties, the letter said.

The company is going to work with the FDA to determine how it may properly market the chip for health-related uses, Applied Digital spokesman Matthew Cossolotto said.

Applied Digital Solutions stock lost 1 cent, or 2.04 percent, to close at 48 cents on the Nasdaq market on Tuesday.

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[> Sola -- tamarisk, 07:00:17 11/20/02 Wed

There is always hope the minions of the managed, controlled goobermint, will get things right. The Bible sayz they, in the end, will not. They will be given over the the NWO/One World Government from Hell.

People like Bill O'Reilly, of the O'Reilly Factor, amuse me. He has been ranting for daze about the House and Senate passing the US Patriot Act, saying it is needed legislation. He has stated the AmeriKan public would not tolerate any abuses which may arise if the goobermint uses it for the purpose of evil. Recently, I finally heard him admit the potential is there for the goobermint to use Homeland Security for evil. O'Reilly needs to repent of his blanket endorsement of the RCC.

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Dolly -- tamarisk, 07:37:38 11/19/02 Tue

WRT:

Author Comment
RevJack
Moderator
Posts: 708
(11/17/02 10:53:04 am)
Reply My Cousin's Funeral
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My cousin's funeral was Friday morning, at 11:00 am, and at the request of his family, I officiated and preached his funeral. My cousin Brad, was a very well liked man, and very popular in local auto racing circles. His funeral service had a large turnout. In fact, it was "standing room only" at the church, which was in itself a great tribute to my cousin.

My cousin died Saturday, November 9th from a beating he received from an individual who owed him $40.00 dollars. This individual continued to kick and beat my cousin even after he had been knocked unconscious. My cousin did not go to his home to fight. He had his right arm in a cast since it was broken, so it is obvious he had no intention of fighting. Also, my cousin was small in stature and very thin. His only desire was to collect the money that was rightly owed him so he could get his truck, which had broken down off the road. Out of the kindness of his heart, he loaned this person $40.00 dollars, and this is how he was repaid. An act of kindness was repaid with an act of violence that resulted in his death. To date, the individual has not been charged with this crime, and I find this to be an outrage!

Rev. Jack Howell

Dake Board Moderator

Be outraged Jack? Fur sure! However Jack, nothing you said above equates to one having the blessed assurance of an eternity in heaven. There would or should be great comfort knowing this man was a Born Again, Saved the Bible Way Believer in Y'shua, and NOT "saved" by some imaginary teachings of harry tics.

Don't fall into the same moral dumpster as GellyB at R1 concerning Amanda and her defiler. I would be more impressed with GellyB when he can get over his anger and preach the Gospel to this man. Consider Jack, preaching the Gospel of Y'shua to this man.

Matt 24:7-15
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
(KJV)

It should not be a mystery to see these things happen in todays world. The ultimate judge is the Lord Himself. The death penalty was established by G_d as punishment for crimes of murder. However, G_d also gave Cities of Refuge for those commiting crimes not presumptous. I have no trouble with a rightous government administering the death penalty to murderers, baby rapers, child molesters, etc. That is the inherent right of the family to cast the first stone. However Jack, are YOU worthy of casting the first stone?

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[> Tamarisk, Another Catholic NOT Roman, Bethany & the Saints -- Sola Scriptura, 20:06:37 11/19/02 Tue

Reviewing his remarks, Jack Howell’s focus, priorities and motivation become obvious…...

”My cousin's funeral was Friday morning, at 11:00 am, and at the request of his family, I officiated and preached his funeral.

My cousin Brad, was a very well liked man,

And very popular in local auto racing circles.

His funeral service had a large turnout.

In fact, it was "standing room only" at the church,

which was in itself a great tribute to my cousin.”


No man has anything of his own except his sins, Jack.

Were this man’s sins washed in Jesus’ Blood? Notice that Jack glorifies the created and not the Creator. Jack loves to wax eloquent about man, for the ears of man. Glaringly absent is the fact that the Rt. Rev. makes no mention of the Messiah he claims to be “anointed” by, and a supposed self appointed representative of, on earth who created his attachments.

"I do not believe God ever fills a cup which was not empty,
or that he fills a man's mouth with GOD's WORD while that man's mouth has his mouth FULL of HIS OWN WORDS.

Charles Haddon Spurgeon nailed Rt. Rev. Howell whose every waking expression is one of SELF.

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ACNR/Dolly/Bethany -- tamarisk, 07:09:30 11/19/02 Tue

On The Lighter Side

A country preacher decided to skip services one Sunday and head to the hills to do some bear hunting. As he rounded the corner on a perilous twist in the trail, he and a bear collided, sending him and his rifle tumbling down the mountainside. The preacher, losing his rifle and breaking both legs in the fall, was horrified to see the ferocious bear charging at him from a distance.

"Oh, Lord," the preacher prayed, "I'm so sorry for skipping services today to come out here and hunt. Please forgive me and grant me just one wish. Please make a Christian out of that charging bear"

That very instant the bear skidded to a halt, fell to it's knees, clasped it's hands together and began to pray aloud right at the preachers feet. "Dear God, bless this food I am about to eat".


The Bible Code
G-od so loved the world that He gave His
O-nly begotten
S-on, that whosoever believeth in Him should not
P-erish, but have
E-verlasting
L-ife
(John 3:16)

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[> Thar's More Than One Way To Skin a Bear Like Jack -- email us for a pass code, 07:27:16 11/19/02 Tue


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