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[> Re: ACNR/Dolly/Bethany/Tamarisk -- Dolly Llama, 10:06:15 08/20/02 Tue

My grandmother lived on a 500 acre ranch that bred champion breeding stock Duroc hogs. I think of doris often with that saying. Here is how my late Nanny Earle told it:

" Don't ever wressle with PIGS.

You BOTH get muddy.

And the PIG LIKES IT!"

....can anyone who has been around for five years figer out why that reminds me of our friend doris? EXACTLY and to a TEE!

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[> Re: From dori's Dump - dori flaunting her universalist religion -- Sola Scriptura, 22:19:39 08/19/02 Mon

minder
Monday August 19, 2002 at 23:10

"In the East, at least in India, where reincarnation is part of the culture, there are always cases of people, often children, being drawn to some house and then identifying everyone, and demonstrating clearly that this person is a reincarnation of someone who died in the family prior to the birth of the returning person. Numerous documented cases. Peace"

Question doris: where does YOUR Bible reference reincarnation? I'm sure those here can tell you where OUR Bibles mention it.

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[> Re: ACNR/Dolly/Bethany -- tamarisk, 13:13:36 08/19/02 Mon

And, I might add, Y'shua means Joshua in the O.T.

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[> ya beat me to it--LOL -- A Catholic, NOT Roman, 10:33:53 08/19/02 Mon

CON-EEEE, the white washed sepulchre, is a doctrinal relativist and blind charismaniac who is so ignorant and unable to think, that she doesn't realize that Maggie the Sabellian Modalist is describing a totally different god, than the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
CON-EEEE, just like doritodip and the rest of the chaotic charismaniacs and others who lack the "eyes to see", are being set up to fall for the Antichrist when he appears in the near future.

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[> doritodip -- ----******___*****------, 06:43:45 08/16/02 Fri

dori
In Response To Coinky
Thursday August 15, 2002 at 23:25

I understand your point, but that is not what Basil and Jeff are saying. They are saying that anyone who believes in God is falling for fairy tales and in order for one to believe those "lies", they aren't using their brains. They actually think you can't believe and be intelligent. They are wrong.

The problem doritodip has is that she neither believes, nor is intelligent.

doritodip has a shallow concept of some sort of indescript god or creative force, but does not intimately know God through His Son Jesus Christ, by relationship, and chooses to remain ignorant of her own stiffnecked, prideful, free will.

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[> dear GellyBeeeeeFish -- A Catholic, NOT Roman, 12:01:45 08/15/02 Thu

GerryB.
Thursday August 15, 2002 at 9:50

Wow!!! After all the charges being leveled here against Roman Catholics and Protestants here, I'm sure glad that I am neither.

Right you are, GellyGelly, you are a spineless Gellyfish and blind guide.

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[> Now Ronnie B apologist for Antichrist finds out the enourmous extent of dori's stupidity -- lurkus XXI, 10:01:17 08/14/02 Wed

dori
In Response To Ron
Tuesday August 13, 2002 at 20:10

I don't believe we Christians restrict God's scope, but we're not talking about what I believe. My point is there are valid arguments (at least to each one of the parties) being made by both sides of the argument. Because I think I'm right in following Christ and believing he is the son of God and is part of the holy Trinity does not mean that minder is wrong to see beyond that or to refuse to see God realization in just Christ as we do, but rather to see God in us all. Why does there have to be a right or wrong in this? Many here act as if there are impressionable children to protect from his "evil" ways. LOL!

I believe Jethro Tull had the doritodip in mind when titling this album: Thick As A Brick

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[> No doritodip, everybody but YOU thinks you are a simpleton -- lurkus XXI, 10:11:58 08/14/02 Wed

dori
In Response To minder
Wednesday August 14, 2002 at 1:02

I'm so sorry I made the terrible mistake of saying I admire you and bringing this heat down on you, but I know you can take it. I am having a bit more trouble taking it, I confess. It's as if I have been put on probation by my fellow Christians for suddenly having taken leave of my senses. They think you have hoodwinked me. They think I'm a simpleton. Good lawdy, Miss Claudie!
======================

Everyone thinks you are a simpleton because you ARE a simpleton.

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[> Re: ACNR/Dolly/Bethany/Tamarisk -- 1001, 22:35:42 08/12/02 Mon

GerryB.
In Response To dori
Tuesday August 13, 2002 at 0:15

RE: "But I find the views of people like ACNE far more dangerous"

"Why do you keep on bringing those clowns into every conversation here? They are not here and are not allowed to be here for good reason. There is currently no one here who is anything like them so why not drop it and move on. Do you always live in the past? "

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[> [> Re: ACNR/Dolly/Bethany/Tamarisk -- tamarisk, 14:38:50 08/13/02 Tue

WRT--GellyB's comment about not being allowed to post there. For the record, I have not been banned from R1. I don't post there by choice.

GellyB would do well to work on his delivery of a True Saving Grace Message straight from the Bible and NOT from his imagination.

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[> [> [> Re: ACNR/Dolly/Bethany/Tamarisk -- Sola Scriptura, 16:33:30 08/13/02 Tue

For the record, I, as well have NOT been banned from any the Sudor West forums. I CHOOSE to not participate, or post at any of their forums. As I have CHOOSEN to not post at dori's dump and be sandwiched between a pair of deviled hams.

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[> [> [> on GellyBeeeeeFish(one who is lacking backbone) -- A Catholic, NOT Roman, 06:41:58 08/14/02 Wed

GellyBeeee's continued endorsement of Maggie the Sabellian Monarchian Modalist as a genuine "believer", even though Maggie preaches "another Jesus", who is a changeling, changing into his "Father suit" and then his "Holy Spirit suit", as opposed to the clear teaching of Scripture that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and the second person in the Triune Godhead, as well as Maggie preaching another gospel that adds speaking in tongues as a neccessary element for Salvation, and also preaches that Salvation is secured by one's own righteous acts in opposition to Romans, Ephesians, John, Galatians, Phillipians and the WHOLE of Scripture continues to expose GellyBeeee's puffed up errant pride and his willing refusal to acknowledge the admonition of St. Paul in 2 Corinthians 11:

2 Corinthians 11
3But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity[1] that is in Christ. 4For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted--you may well put up with it!

GellyBeeeeFish does so not in ignorance, and does so with no respect for God's Word or knowing that as a "self professed teacher", that GellyBeeeeeeFish will be held to a higher standard.

GellyBeeeeeFish would do extremely well to take heed to St. Paul's admonition to inspect himself and leave the "feel good" religion which has him deceived in the pit where it belongs.

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[> this is amusing -- lurker du jour, 11:59:25 08/13/02 Tue

~Veracity~
In Response To Connie
Tuesday August 13, 2002 at 12:51

From the WND article:
Abandonment Theology is a term devised by the author to describe a faith which deceptively pawns itself off as Christianity by operating in the name of Christ, but which produces fruits destructive to America's God-given freedoms. It comprises what is left today of the militant, power-filled, full-dimensional Christian faith of America's Founders after decades of erosion, watering down and trivializing of God's action mandates by America's Abandonment Clergy. It is a "feel good" theology that patronizes Jesus Christ and thereby gains legitimacy, while at the same time produces disobedience to the commands of God and desertion of Christian duty.

That pretty much sums it up.

Robin is so blind that she can't see that article is talking about HER and the Feel Good religionists at the Regurgitation1 forum, among others.

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[> [> another that is amusing -- lurker 909, 12:06:13 08/13/02 Tue

Connie
In Response To Margaret
Tuesday August 13, 2002 at 13:50

But, I also believe that regardless of our differences, God can and intends to give us the same message, having no favorites Amen to that! Each of us has to learn to listen to that "still, small voice" which too often is drowned out by the cacophony of pointing accusatory fingers at someone who disagrees with our view and declaring "I'm right, you're wrong."

There is another example of a hypersensitive charismaniac who subscribes to a relativists approach to doctrine(ie-views), and is the relativist's pat response when their unbiblical doctrines are challenged.

HEADS UP CON-EEEEEEEEE, YOU VIEW isn't worth squat, God's VIEW IS! Most of YOUR views are unbiblical, but when your unbiblical views are challenged, you as a relativist want to think all views(doctrines) are equally valid. That is why you, and the rest of you Laodiceans at R1 are blinded to the heretical nature of Maggie the Sabellian Modalist and others heresies.

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[> Re: Dueling Demons ~ Each Trying To Out Manipulate The Other -- Irish, 20:01:11 08/12/02 Mon

Jack Howell the self appointed “reverend/bishop” is a double-minded man that is unstable in all he does.

At the DUELING DEMONS site:

Subject: Re: why does jack-of-demons howell abuse servers by using them to post anonymously

Demon jack: ”Sorry, but when I use them, I do so LEGALLY and that easily proven.

I see Satan’s child has made it over here.”

Then he does the Demon Jack dialectical switcheroo and shifts the discussion most adroitly to SAK’s alleged illegal use of government property. Has it occurred to anyone to confront demon jack with the FACT that he does not even know SAK-47’s NAME? Let alone what his particular working relationship happens to be with that computer??? Is this at all very satanic seeming to anyone else besides me, for demon jack to be making such a slanderous accusation without one scintilla of the facts? VERY EVIL MAN!!!

Demon jack has relied heavily on this very profitable ruse to avoid having to discuss the real issue. To divert attention from having to deal with God's Word, he makes the focus one of a personal nature.

Nothing new under the sun, the Judaizers did the same thing to Paul.

The modern Judaizers, as it were, are experts in Marx's dialectical materialism.

Same tactic.

Same false accusations.

Same slander.

Same god.

SATAN!

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[> Re: Yo, Tamarisk, Dolly, Bethany, Praludium and the Elect -- Dolly Llama, 22:26:28 08/09/02 Fri

He is one spooky kid. In many ways I am reminded of Woggie and Wolfman Jack who are control freaks. WOGGIE is a hireling for sure, running interference for a raving heretic. All very manipulative people.

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[> Re: VAT CORNER???? -- A Catholic, NOT Roman, 09:50:36 08/09/02 Fri

Vat corner????

The doritodip don't need no stinking corner, she was born that way and will die that way. Leopards don't change their stripes and dogs and pigs don't get what is holy.

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[> [> This is worth reprinting -- A Catholic, NOT Roman, 10:12:11 08/09/02 Fri


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Why are Christians losing America?

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Posted: August 9, 2002
1:00 a.m. Eastern


© 2002 WorldNetDaily.com


"I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth."
– Revelation 3:15-16 KJV

Most Americans call themselves Christians.

Twice they chose as their supreme leader Bill Clinton – a sexual predator and pathological liar who regarded the "religious right" as enemies and radical homosexuals as friends, and who by any meaningful and historical measure was a traitor.

After that, millions of Christians came within a hair's breadth of electing Clinton's partner in crime, Al Gore – another pathological liar, a radical environmentalist who reveres "Gaia" but believes the internal-combustion engine should be outlawed (according to his book, "Earth in the Balance").

Christians have stood on the sidelines during the breathtaking transformation of their once-great Judeo-Christian culture into today's neo-pagan, Sodom-and-Gomorrah-style freak show.

Christians have lost the 30-year war to protect the unborn. Even easy victories – like partial-birth abortion, which virtually everyone opposes – have eluded them.

Christians have lost the war for America's schools – which have been scrubbed antiseptically clean of the Christian principles and traditions that once guided those institutions, and are now filled instead with every conceivable form of propaganda and perversion.

Christians have lost their former influence in politics, in the press, in entertainment, in literature – in virtually every major area of life.

And now, Christians are losing the war for their very own institutions – their churches. The clergy sex scandal is the tip of the iceberg. Both the Catholic Church and most of the major Protestant denominations are literally being ripped apart – from within – by double agents who pretend to be "faithful" but actually loathe Christianity's historical precepts and values.

It's a harsh indictment – but hey, the truth hurts.

In his recent book, "Abandonment Theology," author John W. Chalfant describes the precipitous decline of Judeo-Christian influence in law, culture and public policy in America, noting the 1947 Supreme Court decision that invented the modern "separation of church and state" and later decisions that outlawed Bible reading and prayer in the nation's public schools. He writes:


Once God was shown the door, America went into chaos. Scholastic Aptitude Test scores plummeted. Violent crime rocketed upward. The abortion mills did an unprecedented business as they devised ever-more-sadistic ways to kill children before and even during birth. Bill Clinton, elected president of the United States in 1992, aggressively advocated homosexuality, which God calls "abomination." The Abandonment Clergy and their millions of undiscerning followers stood mute while America's sudden loss of greatness became obvious even to the world.


What's this about an "Abandonment Clergy"? Chalfont explains:


Abandonment Theology is a term devised by the author to describe a faith which deceptively pawns itself off as Christianity by operating in the name of Christ, but which produces fruits destructive to America's God-given freedoms. It comprises what is left today of the militant, power-filled, full-dimensional Christian faith of America's Founders after decades of erosion, watering down and trivializing of God's action mandates by America's Abandonment Clergy. It is a "feel good" theology that patronizes Jesus Christ and thereby gains legitimacy, while at the same time produces disobedience to the commands of God and desertion of Christian duty.


Chalfont describes how the "Abandonment Clergy" and their followers have responded to increasingly audacious attacks on Christian America during the past half-century:


Incredibly, this was the ultimate hour for the Abandonment Clergy to see the light of truth. They faced blatant godlessness at every turn. They could have abandoned their own ways and made a comeback to the faith of the Founding Fathers. But what did they do?

They observed the horrible, deteriorating conditions in America, determined that she was headed into rubble just like pagan Rome and that we must be living in the prophesied "last days" and "end times." Therefore, with the end and the "rapture of the church" so apparently near, why fight?

"After all," these clergymen said, "We're in this world, not of it, so to heck with it," and "Compared to eternity we're here only for an instant." They told us that all that really counts is that we "lead as many people as possible to salvation and let our corrupted country continue on its death course."


Faulty Christian teaching, says Chalfant, is the only way to explain why so many well-meaning Christians are paralyzed into inaction:


The Abandonment Clergy and their followers have been teaching, preaching and saturating the media and their church members with the doctrine of surrender and political non-involvement. They are not teaching us to surrender to Christ through obedience to the commandments of God. Rather, they tell us that America is finished, that the collapse of our heritage and our freedoms has been predetermined within a definable near-future time frame and is therefore beyond our control.


Chalfont takes direct aim at those obsessed with their own imminent "rapture":


The legitimate study of eschatology (the future in prophecy) has been converted into a doctrine of futility and surrender by the clergy who, in defiance of Christ's injunction (see Mark 13:32,33), insist upon assigning near-future dates to the "last days," the "rapture of the church" and the "second coming" of Christ. … At the very least the clergy should understand that their "last days" teachings are nothing more than personal speculations. Christ taught that futility of attitude denies the faith and leads to enslavement. He promised great rewards for those who endure to the end in His cause of freedom.


Chalfont is right. But the problem with contemporary Christianity goes way beyond mere political non-involvement. Do we dare take an honest look?

One reason for the multitude of attacks on Christianity is that evil always attacks good – because it is good – because good shines a bright and painful light on the works of darkness. Jesus Himself warned His followers to expect to be persecuted, just as He was persecuted. This is the reason, and a profound one, that Christians offer to explain why they, their values and their institutions are always under attack.

However, there is another, and far more decisive, reason for the spectacular decline of Christianity in our modern era: Christianity today is very different from what it once was.

America is full of people who have accepted the idea that Jesus Christ died for their sins, and that this belief guarantees them a place in Heaven.

Some are very sincere. They are truly mortified at their former sins, genuinely contrite before God and those they have offended, and they grieve over their continuing compulsions. They have awakened from their former life of gross sin, and now want nothing more than to do the will of their Creator – whatever that may be, wherever it may lead them, whatever they may suffer. They take seriously the commandments and principles given by their Savior, and make their life revolve around emulating Him, to the best of their ability. They are, quite literally, followers of Christ – that is, Christians.

On the other hand, there are countless "Christians" who believe they have a ticket to Heaven, and nothing else really matters very much to them. Their attitude can only be described as brazen. They live lives of shallowness and selfishness, of petty emotions and jealousies, of distraction and escape, of ego and pride, and sometimes of gross corruption and treachery – remember, Clinton is a churchgoing "Christian." This version of Christianity, more prevalent than you can imagine, literally justifies and excuses dirty rotten scoundrels. Its adherents, while living it up under the smug delusion that they're "saved," drive other people crazy (and away from real Christianity) with their hypocrisy.

And then there are, of course, millions of "lukewarm" Christians in between these two groups. They go to church and sing songs and sometimes read the Bible, and maybe "try to be a good Christian" – but they're basically clueless. Their marriage is on the rocks and their children are wearing tongue studs. They believe in society's atheistic "experts" and they're addicted to Internet porn.

Some Christians are actually worse off after being "saved" than before. At least before they were "saved," they had a natural respect for, or fear of, ultimate justice – an inborn sense that somehow we all reap what we sow. After being "saved," that's gone for the insincere "Christian." For him or her, belief in Jesus amounts to a "get-out-of-Hell-free" card, a sort of spiritual "diplomatic immunity." It's like the profligate teenage son of an important Arab diplomat who knows he won't be prosecuted under U.S. law while living here, so he drives recklessly, molests women and generally lives it up with impunity. And because the natural and necessary fear of consequences has been unwisely removed from his life, he falls that much more easily to the temptations of his lower nature.

For millions of people, Christianity has become a bumper-sticker religion. Simply by saying, one time, a single phrase – "I accept Jesus Christ as my savior and repent of my sins" – you are guaranteed salvation and eternal life in heaven, no matter how insincere or selfish or shallow your motives for doing so.

Is this the kind of salvation Jesus referred to when He said, "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved." (Matthew 24:13 KJV) Endure to the end? What's with that? I thought this salvation thing was all settled by that altar call back in '89.

Is this what He meant when He said, "If ye keep My commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept My Father's commandments, and abide in His love." (John 15:10) Many Christians don't bother to pay any attention at all to God's commandments. Hey, what the heck difference does it make? I'm already saved!

Is this what Paul referred to when he said, "I die daily"? (1 Cor. 15:31) The apostle's poignant and intensely meaningful reference to the duty of man to give up the life of pride in all its forms, to die to the "carnal mind" – considered central to Christians of past eras – is all but absent from most of today's churches.

Christianity – the deepest, most meaningful and awe-inspiring religion ever, the magnificent driving force behind Western Civilization, and the transcendent hope of mankind's future – has been dumbed down by these types into a comic-book religion. Turn on your radio and listen to some of the pitches: "Do you want to go to Hell – forever? Well, think about this: What if it really is true that Jesus is the Son of God, and that He is the only way to eternal life in Heaven? Do you want to miss out on eternal life? Then why not say yes to Jesus right now, just to make sure? You'll like it – it's a natural high."

Such altar calls are little more than an insurance pitch. "Hey, buy a little extra insurance, then you can go on with your selfish life and be guaranteed a place in Heaven no matter what."

Just repeat the salvation "formula" – like an Eastern mantra – and you're saved. Period.

For this type of Christian, there's no need to do good works, because they're saved by grace, not works. No need to obey God's commands, because they're already saved, so why bother? They don't need to try to help make it a better world, because they're gonna be "raptured" soon and the rest of the suckers who are left behind can sort out the mess.

Is it any wonder the West is dying?

What's missing in all of this, of course, is a love of truth.

"This people draweth nigh unto Me with their mouth, and honoureth Me with their lips; but their heart is far from Me," said Jesus. (Matthew 15:8 KJV)

Truth predates the incarnation of Christ, it predates the Bible. It's the substance of our bond with God. If you have a love of truth, you're just not ever really satisfied with anything else, and you want to know the truth about everything – especially about yourself. If you're wrong about something, you want to know it. If you've been living a lie, you're willing to see it – no matter what the cost.

If you don't have a little bit of this quality, you don't have squat – even if you call yourself a Christian.

To a truth-seeking soul, the story of Christ – not as told by a plastic minister, but as told by someone, anyone, who's real – has an internal reverberation of truth in the listener's soul. It has the quality of a wonderful old story you heard long ago, in your childhood, but had forgotten.

At the core of this life-changing religion is the individual believer's love and appreciation and acceptance and embrace of Christ's sacrifice – the ultimate demonstration of God's love for His wayward children.

But the problem with the way Christianity is "taught" today is that it doesn't require a love of truth. It doesn't require honest introspection, or courage, or self-denial, or patience. The only ingredient it needs is a guilty person who's sick of feeling guilty, who wants relief, wants to feel better about himself and doesn't want to go to Hell. But even the most insincere person wants to feel better about himself, wants relief from guilt, and fears death and what may lie beyond.

So, it's this compartmentalization and trivialization of Christianity – into a mantra of belief – but separated from works, from obedience to God's laws, and even more fundamentally, separated from basic honesty, integrity, love of truth and true repentance, that has ushered in a generation of shallow and ineffectual Christians.

Did you ever wonder why American founders like Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin completely rejected institutional Christianity – what some call "Churchianity"? Maybe even back then too many of the churches were just too pale a reflection of Christ's true message for them to stomach.

The Christian Church in America needs a revival. But it doesn't necessarily need ever-bigger tents with tens of thousands of people swaying back and forth, singing songs, giving speeches and getting pumped up – and then going home and watching television.

America's real revival will happen when those same people go home, go to their room, close the door, take a deep breath – and take a good, long, hard look at themselves in the mirror. And then, quietly and humbly and fervently, they ask the living God for help, for insight, for direction – for salvation.

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[> [> [> Re: This is worth reprinting -- Dolly Llama, 10:35:54 08/09/02 Fri

Greetings! Another Catholic, NOT Roman!

World Net Daily had an excellent article on the distructions that has befallen those who turn against Israel. Was going to post it. It is no "coinky-dink"

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[> [> [> [> please do post it, it fits in with the next one too -- A Catholic, NOT Roman, 10:51:06 08/09/02 Fri

Greetings in the name of our Lord and Savior Christ Jesus, dear sister Dolly. It's a pleasure to see you strong and full of love for the Lord.

This is an ad for a book, but is good anyway-----it's about time others recognized what's been going on for years.

WHISTLEBLOWER MAGAZINE
THE NEW PAGANISM
How Christianity is being replaced by 'green' religion, goddess worship, globalism

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Posted: August 1, 2002
1:00 a.m. Eastern



© 2002 WorldNetDaily.com


Relentless attacks on America's Christian churches – not just from without, but from within – which are steadily remolding institutionalized Christianity to serve a new, non-Christian, globalist agenda, are the focus of August's eye-opening edition of WorldNetDaily's popular monthly Whistleblower magazine.

Editor's note: During August – the one-year anniversary of Whistleblower (formerly "WorldNet magazine") – WorldNetDaily is making some spectacular and unprecedented free offers as subscription incentives to those WND readers who don't yet receive Whistleblower each month. See "SPECIAL OFFER" at end of this story.

Titled "THE NEW PAGANISM," the August issue is subtitled "How America's Christian churches are being invaded by radical environmentalism, goddess worship and global government."






For years, Christians have stood by helplessly as their once-dominant religion has been increasingly scoffed at, marginalized and demonized. They have watched a dizzying succession of outrageous court decisions – outlawing the 10 Commandments in schools and courtrooms, forbidding acknowledgement of God in graduation speeches, and most recently, declaring public recitation of the Pledge of Allegiance unconstitutional.

And they have reeled at prosecutions that criminalize conscientious Christians, such as that of the Canadian printer fined $5,000 for refusing to print materials for a "gay rights" group. Or the shocking revelation that the Swedish parliament is pushing to amend that country's constitution to ban speech or writing opposing homosexuality – even within churches themselves – violations of which could result in prison sentences.

But while these are the conflict's familiar flashpoints, the real fight lies elsewhere. Indeed, the biggest war of all is that raging within the churches themselves.

The Catholic Church's devastating clergy sex scandal – with its seemingly endless revelations of predatory homosexual priests molesting boys, and the stunning failure of their superiors to put a stop to it – is the tip of the iceberg. As August's Whistleblower shows, the fierce battle for control, not only of the Catholic Church, but of many of the mainline Protestant denominations as well, is the real story.

The combatants range from the familiar front-line storm troopers – homosexual activists, ACLU lawyers, atheists – to the exotic – environmentalists, the United Nations, globalists, New Agers, witches, occultists and many others almost too strange to believe. But all are engaged in an ultimate fight – a battle to the death, winner takes all – for control of the major institutions of the Christian religion.

"America is rapidly changing from the jewel of Judeo-Christian Western Civilization to a screaming babel of wild religious movements, each more wacky than the next, and all animated by rebellion against the religion and values upon which America was founded, and which made it the greatest nation in world history," said WND Editor and CEO Joseph Farah.

And just what, exactly, is attempting to replace Christianity as the dominant religion in America?

Superficially, it appears to be just a freak show, ranging from the seemingly harmless "Entertainment Paganism" ("Dungeons and Dragons," "white witchcraft," "Buffy the Vampire Slayer," "Witchblade") to "Teen Cult Paganism" (teens in Gothic drag, freaky hair colors, tattoos, body piercing, "body art," black garb, studs and chains) to "Ecology Theology" (free-form sexual morality, "gaia" worship, native spirituality rituals) to the wide-ranging "New Age Movement" (believes humankind is on the cusp of a new dawn, beginning new phase in evolutionary history) to "Dark Paganism" (believes there's no such thing as "evil," and that destruction and death are forms of beauty) to "Wicca" (witchcraft is reportedly the fastest growing religion in Australia) and "Satanism" (consciously acknowledges Satan as master, and seeks power to corrupt all things, especially Christianity).

But that's only the surface. As WND reveals in this issue of Whistleblower, the paganization of America's churches – already well under way – is consciously intended to usher in a "new age" of global government, with the United Nations as the global "brain" of a new world order.

And no, this is not conspiracy stuff. It's real – and it's happening now.

A new world religion

This "new" religious worldview is sugar-coated with high-minded and universal ideals of environmental protection and species preservation, but the ultimate agenda behind the movement is much darker.

The ultimate purpose of "green religion" is to convince the people of the world to embrace world governance – which for a free nation like America represents a massive loss of national sovereignty and personal freedom – for the supposed sake of Mother Earth ("gaia") and the environment. After all, it is a lot easier to administer world government if all people believe it represents their salvation, rather than tyranny.

How is this to be accomplished? To begin with, assign new names to old demons. What once was called "paganism" has been renamed and assigned a new respectability as the "gaia hypothesis." The once-hated idea of world government has been renamed "global governance." The concept of national sovereignty is eroding and transmuting into the concept of "sovereign equality."

"The vanguard of this movement," explains Henry Lamb in "The rise of global green religion," "people like James Parks Morton, James Lovelock, Robert Muller, Al Gore, Timothy Wirth and many, many others, have been 'enlightened' through their biocentric belief in gaia" – the belief that the earth itself is a conscious, living organism – "and therefore they know what is best for the planet. They also know that the only way to protect the sacred gaia is to control the people who are degrading her. The only way to control the people is through an omnipotent government that is, at this moment, consolidating its power into an ever-growing bureaucracy, now stretching around the globe, extending its tentacles into every corner of human life, creating de facto global governance."

And guess what? Not only has this new "enlightened" worldview permeated Western schools and governments, but America's Christian churches themselves also are rapidly being converted to this new religious paradigm.

Most Americans have no idea this is happening. Many don't want to know. And yet, Americans are the only power on earth strong enough to prevent global governance from taking control of the entire planet. The August Whistleblower shows the way back.

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[> [> Re: VAT CORNER???? TREASURE @ DORITO MADRE -- Monsignor Sprinkles, 12:03:56 08/09/02 Fri

TREASURE AT DORITO MADRE.......

I DORITO, DON'T NEED NO STINKIN' CORNER!!!!!

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[> jackofdemons howell----READ THIS! -- A Catholic, NOT Roman, 14:08:43 08/07/02 Wed

Dake's Dubious Doctrine


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While many have documented various aberrational teachings within the modern Christian church, predominantly within what has come to be known as the "word-faith" movement, few have taken a continuing strong position against what is, perhaps, a greater danger to the church at large. Many are familiar with persons such as Benny Hinn or Kenneth Copeland who both have very large and influential ministries with global impact. Some are familiar with names like E.W. Kenyon, considered by many to be the true origin of the word-faith doctrines, and his association with the metaphysical movement earlier in this century. However, as the battle continues over this or that fragmented doctrine coming from these "teachers" (which in all good conscience should continue), we seem to take no notice of a source of unsound teaching little discussed and even endorsed by many. I am herein referring to the Dake's Annotated Reference Bible which sells at a rate of approximately 30,000 per year and has been called "The Pentecostal Study Bible".

Many have felt that the impact of Finis Dake's work has diminished through the course of time since its first publication in 1963. Although the sales of his Annotated Reference Bible have been perhaps greater at other times, his impact has taken on global proportions through the ministries of such people as Joyce Meyers, Marilyn Hickey, Rod Parsley, Creflo Dollar, Ralph Wilkerson, Jimmy Swaggart, Jerry Seville, Rita Bennett, and, of course, Benny Hinn. These people have used, endorsed, and, apparently, developed much of their theology from Dake materials. In the case of Benny Hinn, he admitted having taught his congregation from Dake's Gods Plan forMan to Charisma magazine in the August, 1993 issue (page 25). (It was here Hinn was asked to comment on his statement regarding "nine members of the Godhead".) The legacy and teaching of Finis Dake indeed lives on, then, in these persons. His influence continuing, unabated, multiplied many times over, in books, tapes and now broadcast 24 hours a day on international "Christian" television. The only thing absent from the teaching which continues today, is the name "Dake".
(See: List of other Dake Supporters and their comments.)

Although some of the notations found within the Dake bible may be helpful to understand occasional historic perspectives from which scripture was written, Finis J. Dake has tread into areas of doctrine which not only do not represent the "pentecostal" position, but are found to be contrary to the doctrinal position of the Christian church throughout history. Primarily, I am concerned with what would be considered "major" doctrines" of the church: the Trinity, the nature of Jesus, and the nature of God. These will be the focus of this study, leaving for another time Dake's teachings of a pre-Adamic world created for Lucifer and the demons, the impregnation of women by demons to pollute the human blood line, Job's utter sinfulness during his time of testing, and Jonah's death inside the "whale".

The import of this critique cannot be underestimated. Correct understanding of Jesus (who he is and what he did) and of God (his nature and character) is precisely the line that separates a Christian believer from a Jehovah's Witness or a member of the Church of Jesus Christ Latter Day Saints. While it is recognized that we have, in many areas, liberty in Christ to hold slightly differing positions on some doctrines (ie: drinking of wine, which day to honor as the sabbath, forms of church government, etc.), it is also recognized that there are central truths within the Christian church which must be held to in order to continue to be "in the Church".

With these things in mind, we will examine the doctrinal position of Finis J. Dake on several points and compare his position to that of the historical Christian church.



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According to Dake : (all emphasis in original quotes)
Note : All quotations taken from the Dake's Annotated Reference Bible -- Seventeenth Printing March, 1986



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The Nature of God --

"He is a person with a personal spirit body, a personal soul, and a personal spirit, like that of angels and like that of man except His body is of spirit substance instead of flesh and bones." (Dake's Annotated Reference Bible, N.T. pg. 97, note r)

"He has a personal spirit body... shape... image and likeness of a man... He has bodily parts such as, back parts... heart... hands and fingers... mouth... lips and tongue... feet... eyes... ears... hair... head... face... arms... loins... and other bodily parts."
(Ibid.)

"He has a bodily presence, and goes from place to place in a body like all other persons."
(Ibid.)

"He has a voice, breath, and countenance. He wears clothes, eats, rests, dwells in a mansion and in a city located on a material planet called Heaven."
(Dake's Annotated Reference Bible, N.T. pg. 97-96, note r)

"He has been seen bodily many times."
(Dake's Annotated Reference Bible, N.T. pg. 96, note r, continued)

"This plainly teaches that God, as well as men and angels, is limited to one place as far as the body is concerned. The doctrine of omnipresence of God can be proved, but not His omnibody. In His body He goes from place to place like other persons."
(Dake's Annotated Reference Bible, O.T. pg. 15, note n)

"Here we have another proof that God receives knowledge of true conditions and becomes acquainted with existing facts." (Dake's Annotated Reference Bible, O.T. pg 15, note m)


While Scripture is certainly filled with various descriptive language concerning God, these verses have always been interpreted as ways that God has used to explain himself in language we can comprehend as humans. To give literal meaning to anthropomorphic language becomes absurd when considering the many passages of Scripture which speak of God having "wings" (Ps. 17:8), being a "fortress" (Ps. 18: 2), "a hen" (Matt. 23:37) and "a tower" (Prov. 18:10). Metaphoric illustration to describe an infinite being to finite mortals is not only appropriate, it is necessary. Understanding how energy is transferred to heat to make toast can be difficult. The structure of DNA molecules is still beyond the reach of most intelligent people. Understanding an eternal God, omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient will only occur on that day when we will know him as we are known, and that in his kingdom.

While it remains unclear as to why Finis Dake should think that a body made of "spirit substance" has need of a "heart" (a muscle whose only function is to move blood throughout the vascular system), it is clear that by insisting on literal interpretations where anthropomorphic language is used, Dake has made God in our image and likeness. Finis Dake realizes, also, that a body which "goes from place to place like all other persons" does tend to create problems with the concept of omnipresence as well. He explains this to his readers on page 81 in his concordance by saying : "God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are all present where there are beings with whom they have dealings; but they are not omnibody, that is, their bodies are not omnipresent. All three go from place to place bodily as other beings in the universe do". Using orthodox language to create the illusion of doctrinal correctness, then replacing the accepted definition for one of your own making, is a tactic usually reserved for Jehovah's Witness' and Mormons. Mr. Dake, however, rises to the challenge to defend his beliefs using any and all means necessary, including the creation of a new term, "omnibody".



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The Trinity --

It is a fallacy "that there is only one person or one being called God."
(Dake's Annotated Reference Bible, N.T. pg. 280, column 1)

It is a fallacy "that there is a difference in meaning of three human persons and three divine persons." (Dake's Annotated Reference Bible, N.T. pg. 280, column 1)

It is a fallacy "that the Trinity is beyond human comprehension and bewilders the most learned." (Dake's Annotated Reference Bible, N.T. pg. 280, column 1)

It is a fallacy "that God has no body, bodily parts, or passions like human beings - nothing of a bodily nature." (Dake's Annotated Reference Bible, N.T. pg. 280, column 1)

It is a fallacy "that Jesus is the one God and Jehovah of the O. T."
(Dake's Annotated Reference Bible, N.T. pg. 280, column 1)

"What we mean by Divine Trinity is that there are three separate and distinct persons in the Godhead, each one having His own personal spirit body, personal soul, and personal spirit in the same sense each human being, angel, or any other being has his own body, soul, and spirit." (Dake's Annotated Reference Bible, N.T. pg. 280, column 1)

"Is God only one being made up of several persons or beings in the one being? If so, we can conclude that man is one person or being made up of many."
(Dake's Annotated Reference Bible, N.T. pg. 280, column 2)

"The Father is called God, the Son is called God, and the Holy Spirit is called God. As individual persons each can be called God and collectively they can be spoken of as one God because of their perfect unity. The word God is used either as a singular or a plural word, like sheep." (Dake's Annotated Reference Bible, N.T. pg. 280, column 2)

"Is it any wonder that the Godhead, the Trinity, and the unity of God are so mysterious when we force separate persons to become only one person, all because we do not want to recognize the true meaning of the word one as referring to unity, not to individuality in some scriptures? Men would be just as great a mystery if we forced the meaning of all men to refer to one person." (Dake's Annotated Reference Bible, N.T. pg. 281, column 3)

"Christ received all power in heaven and in earth (Matt. 28:18). Someone had to be greater than He was to give Him that power. Who was it (Jn. 14:28)?"
(Dake's Annotated Reference Bible, N.T. pg. 280, column 2)


The doctrine of the Trinity is the foundation from which Christianity is built. From Scripture we can rightly determine that : God exists as three persons; that each of those persons individually is God; that there is only one God. To deny any of the preceding statements is to embrace heresy the church has had to battle since the second century. Here again, though, Finis Dake simply redefines the meaning of words to suit his desired end. By redefining "one" to mean that the three (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) are one in 'unity', Dake can continue to sound doctrinally correct. Further, suggesting that the word "God" is a plural, "like sheep", allows Dake to cloak his tritheism (belief in three gods) in orthodox language and look himself like a "sheep" but retain his "wolf" nature. (See the creeds below for the historic view of the Trinity).



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The Nature of Jesus, the Christ --

Referring to the word Christ --
"Gr. Christos, "Anointed," ...Like the name "Jesus" it has no reference to deity, but to the humanity of the Son of God, who became the Christ or the "Anointed One" 30 years after He was born of Mary. God "made" Him both Lord and Christ. The Heb. is "Messiah"." (Dake's Annotated Reference Bible, N.T. pg. 1, note a) [This notation has been removed from more recent versions of the Dake bible (sometime after 1990), but rightly reflects Finis Dake's own position on Christ].

"Sonship with Christ always refers to humanity, not to deity. As God, He had no beginning; was not begotten or He would have had a beginning as God; and was not God's Son. But as a man, He had a beginning, was begotten, and was God's Son. In these passages it is clear that there was a certain day when God was to have a Son and the Son have a Father. It was to be in the future from the time the prophets spoke, If sonship refers to deity, then this deity had a beginning on a certain day and He was not eternal. But if it refers to humanity, then all scriptures are clear and we have no man-made mystery of the so-called eternal sonship of Jesus Christ." (Dake's Annotated Reference Bible, N.T. pg. 57, note d)

"This is no longer a mystery when we understand the true "kenosis", or self-emptying of Christ. He retained His divine nature, but limited Himself to human attributes and powers during the days of His flesh" (Dake's Annotated Reference Bible, N.T. pg. 59, note d)

Under the heading "Of what did Christ empty Himself?" --
"Christ emptied Himself of:"

"Equality with God."
"His authority in heaven and in earth."
"His divine attributes and outward powers that He had with the Father from eternity."
"He was limited to the status of a man."
"He was God's agent using God's power of attorney."
"If it became necessary to anoint Jesus during His earthly life, then it proves He did not
retain His former glory and attributes which He had from all eternity when He emptied Himself to become like men in all things."
"He did not claim the attributes of God, but only the anointing of the Spirit to do His works."
"Most scriptures used in doctrine books proving that Christ had divine attributes on earth are statements true of Him since His glory has been restored and do not prove anything during His life on earth. All scriptures related to His earthly life can be explained as referring to the exercise of the gifts of the Spirit and not natural attributes."
(Dake's Annotated Reference Bible, N.T. pg. 218, columns 1, 2 & 3)


To understand that Jesus was, is, evermore shall be, and was never less than eternal God, is truth only the cultists and heathen would argue. It is the very gospel we preach unto salvation. This mystery which was revealed to us is the very thing that causes our hearts to melt like wax at its knowing. God in all that he is, took on the nature of a servant, humbled by clothing himself in the nature of a man, to live the righteous requirement of the law and offered himself a sacrifice so that through the one man, many would be saved. To make Jesus less than God, at any point in eternity, is to deny his very nature from the beginning of all things. "God" minus anything equals "not God".

The name of Jesus has been called upon as savior by Jehovah's Witness', The Church of Jesus Christ Latter Day Saints and others. The separation that exists between those groups and the true, historic and orthodox church is in defining exactly who Jesus is. The Jehovah's Witness' deny the deity of Christ and the Trinity. The Mormons represent Jesus to be the "spirit brother" of Lucifer and redefine the Trinity in a way very similar to Dake. Finis Dake claims that Jesus did not have "equality to God" and that the Godhead is really three separate "gods". Jesus said; "Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophecy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'" (Matt. 7:22-23 NIV) and again, "If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well." (John 14:7) To not know who Jesus is in his nature and being, therefore, is to not know God.



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On Jesus being "the firstborn of all creation": (Col. 1:15)

"Gr. prototokos, Trans. firstborn (v15), It is used of Jesus the firstborn of Mary and of the firstborn of Egyptians. It means the first one born in the family. It must also be understood in this literal sense in connection with Jesus being the firstborn in God's family. However, Sonship in this case refers to humanity and not to deity."
(Dake's Annotated Reference Bible, N.T. pg. 222, column 1)

It must be here noted that Finis Dake uses the same argument, and is in agreement with, the interpretation that the Jehovah's Witness' apply to the use of the word "prototokos". While it may be translated "firstborn", the word prototokos carries with it the understanding of pre-eminence in position. Thus, Jesus was "pre-eminent" over all creation, a fact that scripture soundly affirms. If we look to the septuagint (Greek) translation of the old testament, we find that "prototokos" was used in similar fashion to describe the relationship between Ephraim and Manasseh. In Gen. 41:51-52 we read the following:

"Joseph named his firstborn Manasseh...The second son he named Ephraim." (NIV)
It is clear from scripture that Manasseh is indeed the first one born in the family. However, in Jeremiah 31:9, the Lord, himself, says, "Ephraim is my firstborn son." (NIV)

The word translated "firstborn" in Jeremiah is the very same "prototokos". Since we know that Manasseh was born first, either God has made a mistake, or His intention was to indicate the "pre-eminence of position" that Ephraim had over Manesseh. Since God makes no mistakes, we can conclude the latter. This is also the correct understanding of "firstborn" as it is used in Col. 1:15 in reference to Jesus.



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The Historic Position of the Christian Church



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In order to understand the doctrinal stance held by the church in these areas, both now and during the preceding two centuries, I have chosen, rather than to restate the position from a personal denominational bias of some sort, to provide evidence directly from the documents widely held to contain the position of the church throughout history. While not infallible in their content, these doctrinal statements were crafted and written with great care to ensure proper understanding of the tenants of Christianity. They are here used to compare what the greater church has always believed concerning God and Christ, against what is presented within the Dake commentary.

It is my sincere hope that you will take the time to read carefully the following texts. While the language is at times archaic, these documents are beautifully crafted and exemplify the care and reverence with which the authors dealt with the subject matter. In each is an attempt to codify the truths of Scripture within the framework of the gospel as announced to us through Christ Jesus, our Lord. Correct understanding of our faith, as expressed within these creeds, was of paramount concern to the writers. They understood that nothing short of man's eternal destiny rests in the balance.


These documents will include excerpts from the following:

(A new window will open for each of the following links)

The Nicene Creed (A.D. 325-381) [Complete Text]
The Chalcedonian Creed (A.D. 451) [Complete Text]
The Athanasian Creed (Fourth and Fifth centuries A.D.) [Complete Text]
Articles of Religion (Thirty-Nine Articles, 1571: Church of England) [Excerpts]
The Westminster Confession of Faith (1643-1646) [Excerpts]
The New Hampshire Baptist Confession (1833) [Excerpts]
Baptist Faith and Message (Southern Baptist Convention, 1925, revised 1963) [Excerpts]

Together, these documents, spanning almost 2000 years of church history, will enable us to see without doubt that Finis Dake is in opposition to the truths of Scripture as they have always been understood in the areas outlined above.



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Following the above documents you will find a summary of thought concerning Finis J. Dake and suggested response to his writings.

Summary
(The texts cited below in the creeds come from Systematic Theology, by Wayne Grudem, published by Zondervan Publishing.)


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Summary

It is important to note that in each of the above sited statements of faith, the question of the Trinity and the nature of God and of his Son, Jesus, are the primary issues dealt with. It is the centrality of importance within those doctrines which caused it to be thus so. How can one come to God in repentance, seeking forgiveness through Jesus, if we do not know who God is, or who Jesus is? It was no small matter to the church for 2000 years, and cannot be abandoned now.

According to Dake, the God of the Bible is a being of definite size and shape, with a body not unlike ourselves, except it is of "spirit substance"(?), while living on a "material planet" called heaven. This "God" can only be in one place at a time and he moves from place to place like other persons. The God of the Dake bible is said to be omniscient and, yet, still needs to gather information from the beings he deals with since he chooses not to know all things. Along with this "God" are two other "Gods", all three united by virtue of their agreement in purpose, yet individual and separate in being. One is known as the Holy Spirit, existing with the Father from all eternity, with his own body, again like ours. The other is a "God" who has no name until he left "planet heaven" to be born on planet earth, and was then known as Jesus, the Son. This Jesus, according to Dake, was not the messiah at his birth, but he became such at 30 years of age when he was then baptized and received "the anointing". During his time on earth, Dake's Jesus was not equal to God the Father and, so, was something less than God. This Jesus had not the attributes of God the Father, but was allowed to perform miracles by using a "power of attorney" from the Father. Then Dake's Jesus, who was less than (not equal to) God, eventually sacrificed himself on a cross for our sins, after which time he became fully "God" again and joined the other two "Gods" back on "planet heaven".


Clearly, this is not the God of the bible or of the gospel presented in Scripture and understood throughout the ages of church history. Finis J. Dake has incorporated some of the oldest heresies the church has had to battle, namely: tritheism, adoptionism, and subordinationism through nineteenth century kenotic theology. Seemingly not content with the measure of heresy already obtained, Finis Dake goes on to deny the omnipresence and omniscience of God. Indeed, Finis J. Dake has created "other gods" to follow and "another gospel" to preach, to which we respond with Paul :


"I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel -- which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!"
(Galatians 1:6-9)

and again :

"See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ.
For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority." (Colossians 2:8-10)

and again :

"As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. These promote controversies rather than God's work -- which is by faith. The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. Some have wandered away from these and turned to meaningless talk. They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm." (1 Timothy 1:3-7)

In an effort to understand just how those at Dake Publishing would explain the statements within their commentary, correspondencea began with them on Jan. 2, 2001. In the first letter written, they were asked if they would agree with a statement of faith which included the following: "We believe that there is one God, eternally existent in three persons: Father, Son, andHoly Spirit."A response was received on that same date from Derrick Germaine, General Manager of Dake Publishing and grandson of Finis Dake, Sr. In that letter Mr. Germaine states; "We agree completely with your email and statement of faith. We embrace the same." However, when pressed to comment on the accuracy of quotes from the Dake reference (Specifically references 1, 2, 6, and 7 under the heading The Trinity found above on this page.) Mr. Germaine did not respond. Instead, a letter was received from a South Carolina pastor and "theological consultant" for Dake Publishing, named Leon Bible. As to the statement, "It is a fallacy that there is only one person or one being called God", Mr. Bible comments, "We agree that this is a fallacy as stated". The letter continues by cloaking aberrant teaching in orthodox language and makes many references to the "three ness" of God. In his summation, Mr. Bible compares critics of the Dake notes to those who criticized Augustine, Luther, Calvin, Wesley and Moody and suggests that "true scholars walk away from the Dake Bible with an awe for the work presented." In this Leon Bible is partially correct; true scholars, indeed, walk away from the Dake Bible.

While I have not found a true scholar who agrees with the writings of Finis Dake, it is not difficult at all to find those who oppose it. Reformed theologian Michael Horton says Dake's view on the Trinity is similar to Mormon theology and is heretical. In his book, The Agony of Deceit, he states, "The Faith teachers borrowing from Dake's Annotated Study Bible deny [the Trinity]". Likewise, Hank Hanegraaf of the Christian Research Institute says that, "Dake's doctrine denies the historic Christian church doctrine that God, in Trinity, is one in essence". George Wood, general secretary of the Assemblies of God, says that "His [Dake's] opinions are in direct conflict with our statement of fundamental truth."

Complicating the matter of exposing Dake's teachings is the fact that Finis Dake's material is supported by organizations like the Church of God (Cleveland, TN), which sells the Dake's Annotated Reference Bible through their printing organization, Pathway Press. When I inquired as to why Pathway Press carries the Dake bible I was told that "they sell quite a few and have had very few complaints" b. How sad that the sales profit to be made is valued above the doctrine contained within the pages of the book sold. The declaration of faith of the Church of God is trinitarian and, for the most part, very orthodox. How they have allowed this apparent contradiction is unknown. I spoke with Dr. Paul Walker at the Church of God Theological Seminary concerning this very issue. When I inquired as to whether he was familiar with the works of Finis Dake, he explained that he not only knew Dake's material but had been a speaker at Mr. Dake's funeral. I proceeded to ask why the Church of God endorsed Dake's anti-Trinitarian position. Dr. Walker tried to insist that my "problem" was really with the Dake family (the publisher), not the Church of God. When pressed for a reason for the C.O.G. endorsement however, Dr. Walker said, "I haven't heard anyone say things like this about Dake, and I've been around for 68 years." Dr. Walker is not alone in his lack of concern. When speaking with Larry Gratreak, a pastor and divisional supervisor for the International Church of the Foursquare Gospel, he informed me that several people in his own congregation use the Dake bible. He was unaware of Dake's position on the Trinity and, after being shown what Dake had to say on the matter, simply looked at me and said, "So, what's your point?" I asked whether he felt that those members in his congregation using the Dake bible should at least be made aware and warned of its content. His reply was, "No, I'm not really worried about that."

It really should be an easier matter to gain support against these heresies in the defense of orthodox Christian doctrine. Few, however, know quite what to do when faced with the challenge. Included in some of the historic statements of the Christian faith are concerns relating to the purity of the church in matters of doctrine. It has always been considered not only acceptable, but mandatory, that the church maintain, to the highest degree possible, doctrinal purity. What we believe (about God, about Jesus, etc.) causes us to be either "included" within the church, or "excluded" from it. Correction is not to be withheld because, in so doing, we risk loosing the offending brother to the enemy, or contaminating the church by their continued presence. But should we proactively warn our brothers and sisters about the issues, or simply teach the truth passively and hope they hear our message? Many of the pastors I have spoken with tend toward the latter. Some have suggested that since it is unlikely that any of us have a "perfectly pure doctrine", that holding to some of the teachings found in Dake would not jeopardize an individual's salvation. But, is the question "How far from the truth can I get and still be included within the group called the church?", or should we "Run the race with endurance knowing that only the victor gets the crown?". However we proceed, I'm sure that God will hold each of us accountable to the course we choose.

It should be clear in the above citations that Finis J. Dake departs from the traditional and historic understanding of the Christian faith in several important areas. I have endeavored to include enough material from the Dake'sAnnotated Reference Bible to insure that his position and intention is truthfully represented in each of the doctrinal areas outlined. The question then becomes, how many times must an individual reject the oneness of the Godhead in the Trinity or the equality of Jesus to the Father before we recognize that indeed they are in error?

Once the error is recognized, as in this case, we have an obligation as Christians to speak out against it. This, indeed, is the serious task of the Church. Too many times we have, in the name of not "offending our brother", kept quiet with our concerns. We have somehow begun to value cooperation without correction, restoration without rebuke. But how can there be cooperation and restoration unless correction and rebuke are allowed to be administered in love. It is not a lack of love for our brothers in the church that causes us to take this position of opposition. Just the contrary, it is our desire that "none should perish" that proves our love. Peter was corrected and rebuked publicly for error that would have led others astray if left unchecked. This example in Scripture is no accident. It was not Paul's "lack of love" or "spirit of intolerance" that prompted him to speak. He was a man who was ready at all times to defend the Gospel of Christ. We are to treat error in the same fashion. To paraphrase James just a bit, show me your love without your works, and I will show you mine by my works. The admonition from Scripture is clear on our position when correcting doctrinal error. It was Paul who wrote to Timothy with regard to this very subject :

"The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron....If you point these things out to the brothers, you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, brought up in the truths of the faith and of the good teaching that you have followed." (1 Timothy 4:1-2, 6)

There are those who have indicated that while some of Dake's work is aberrational, they reference it for some greater understanding of prophecy or subjects less controversial than those dealt with here. However, if Finis Dake does not know the true and living God and our Savior, Jesus, as they are revealed in Scripture, can his interpretation of any passage or verse be of value? Two issues need to be discussed:

1) What we believe about God affects and changes the way we interpret Scripture.
Our conclusions with regard to the teachings of various passages of the Bible will be molded by what we personally believe to be true.
From Dake we could conclude that since Jesus was not equal to God the Father, and since he was simply using God's "power of attorney", that as born-again, spirit filled believers, we are as much an incarnation as was Jesus. This is exactly what teachers such as Kenneth Copeland and Kenneth Hagin teach, and it seems likely that they derived such a concept from the doctrine of Finis Dake.

2) If Finis Dake is correct in his understanding of the nature of God and Christ, then the church, as a whole, has been wrong for 2000 years. This would sound more a claim from Joseph Smith rather than any Christian source.
Joseph Smith is reported to have asked God which church he should join. According to Latter Day Saints, he was told to join none of them for they had all become filled with error. How absurd it must sound to God that we believe him strong enough to create and sustain all things, perform miracles beyond description, provide salvation to his people, and not be able to guard and protect his own Word revealedto us in Scripture.

There was a time when the people, confronted with a choice, were asked, "Choose this day which God you will serve". We must again, now, and as many times as necessary, make that same choice. Shall we serve the three "gods" of Finis Dake who are limited in their attributes, or the unlimited, righteous God of the bible who offers us salvation in his Son, Jesus? We are compelled to reply, "As for me and my house, we shall serve the Lord."

It is my sincere hope and prayer that the Dake family, who continues to own and publish the works of the late Finis J. Dake, would take the time to correct the doctrinal errors found throughout the Dake'sAnnotated Reference Bible. As for the rest of his works, it is my sincere hope that they would discontinue there publication and, in so doing, perhaps save many from the confusion and error in understanding that was never their intended purpose.

Until that day, I would urge all denominations at their highest levels, to condemn the writings of Finis J. Dake as undoctrinal, unorthodox, and dangerous heresy. Furthermore, that they would make their membership aware of that position by issuing warnings, in writing, to each of their pastors, overseers, elders, councils, supervisors, and general membership stating in clear language the heretical nature of those same writings.

I leave you with Paul's final instruction to Timothy, which is really for us as well :

"Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to your care. Turn away from godless chatter and the opposing ideas of what is falsely called knowledge, which some have professed and in so doing have wandered from the faith.
Grace be with you." (1 Timothy 6:20-21)

Return to Top Return to Documents list

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Other Dake Supporters and their comments :

All of the people mentioned are listed as an endorsement of the Dake Annotated Reference Bible, computer version, (produced by Dake Publishing) on the back of the computer CD cover. I personally verified with Epiphony Software that each of the following quotes was supplied them by Dake Publishing.


“I thank God for the people who produced the Dake Bible. Their hard
work has made it easier for me to teach God's Word.”
• Joyce Meyers

“If I could put just one tool in the hands of any minister, it would be the
Dake Bible”
• Ralph Wilkerson

“The Dake Bible is the best reference and study Bible you can get! I have
personally worn out four Dake's Bibles.”
• Marilyn Hickey

“The Dake Bible helped me build a solid foundation in the Word.”
• Creflo Dollar

“The Dake Bible is one of the greatest literary works ever made for
Pentecostal and Charismatic believers.”
• Rod Parsley

Back to where you left off





a) Letters for this correspondence are on file with this ministry.

b ) This comment was made to me in a telecom. with Tracy McKinley at Pathway Press as she explained the position of Dan Boling, who is the director of Pathway Press. (Nov, 2000) I have written Dan Boling at Pathway Press outlining Dake's position on various doctrines and pointing out where they are in direct opposition to the Church of God Statement of Faith. I requested to know his intent with regard to the continued presence of Dake material available through Pathway Press. I have yet to receive a reply. [Return to Summary]




All material herein © Copyright 2000 Terry R. Wilson and Main Street Ministries (except where noted)

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[> [> Re: jackofdemons howell----READ THIS! -- A Catholic, NOT Roman, 14:22:38 08/07/02 Wed

Parallels Between Charismatic and New Age Movements

Part One

By Gary F. Zeolla

In writing this two-part article, I will be drawing on my own personal experience in the charismatic movement. I attended an independent, charismatic church for four years. I left after much soul searching, Bible study, and research. Some of my reasons for leaving will be elaborated on in this article. I prefer to leave the full name and address out, because I still have relatives and friends who attend the church. I will simply refer to it as Dayspring.

I will also be drawing on research I have done one the New Age Movement, both through the reading of books and from talking to those involved in the movement.

Movements, Not Organizations

The teachings of charismatic churches can vary from one to another. This is because it is a movement, not an organization. Also, sometimes it is difficult to ascertain what a particular church teaches since most don't have published confessions of faith. Thus, you can’t be sure what is taught and believed till you're deep into the movement. Fortunately, however, Dayspring does have a confession of faith printed. I will be referring to it throughout this article.

This lack of uniformity is the first point of comparison between the movements. The beliefs of New Agers vary from group to group and person to person. Thus, it is also difficult to know what you're getting into from the onset in this movement.

Given this lack of uniformity, what is said below does not necessarily apply to all charismatic churches or persons who would describe themselves as charismatics or to all New Age groups or all New Agers. For that matter, since it has been several years since I left Dayspring it may have changed somewhat since then. And my comments do not apply to everyone who attended that particular church.

That said, the below does relate what I experienced while in the church. And I have visited many other charismatic churches, both in the Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania and the Denver, Colorado areas. And I found that my experiences at Dayspring were not that unique.

Also, I have tried to quote from more influential New Age writers to try to relate as best as possible what is generally seen in the New Age Movement.

Experience, Not Truth

Even if these churches and groups had published statements of faith, few of those entering would probably read them anyway. People entering these movements are generally concerned with having an experience, not finding the truth. As New Ager Marylin Ferguson says, "We begin to trust intuition, whole brain knowing ... As we become attuned to the inner signals, they seem stronger" (Ferguson, p. 107).

This reference to inner signals reminds me of a phrase I heard continually at Dayspring, "God showed me...." People would talk like they had a hotline to God. They would consider an inner "feeling" to always be God’s voice and then act according to what this "voice" said. In other words, their actions are determined by feelings, not intellect.

Both movements also put heavy emphasis on dreams. New Ager Rick Fields writes, "Since ancient times, dreams have been honored as a source of wisdom and guidance in life" (Fields, p. 25).

This is not to say God can't speak to someone in a dream or the "still, small voice" (1Kings 9:12; KJV). However, dreams or inner feelings should not be used to the exclusion of rationally weighing the options in a decision and checking Scripture.

It is because oft his emphasis on feelings, rather than intellect, that it can sometimes be difficult to talk rationally to people involved in these movements about their beliefs.

Dayspring's confession reads, "...we have no desire to debate doctrine." (p. 5). This attitude is common in both movements. Since they just "know" they're right, why discuss it? Besides this, " . . many have very little content to their faith, everything is experience -- emotion (or emotionalism). is the base" (Schaeffer, p. 391).

Backgrounds of Adherents

The reason for this non-intellectual attitude relates to how people get involved in these movements in the first place. Many have come out of a "dead" Christian background. At Dayspring, about half of the members were ex-Catholics. The rest were mostly ex-Protestants. The church itself used to be Baptist.

Compare this composition with Ferguson's statistics for the backgrounds of the New Agers she surveyed: 55% Protestant, 20% Jewish, 18% Catholic (p. 367).

In other words, many in these movements came out of Christian backgrounds that they did not find emotionally fulfilling. So they are looking for an experience or as Ferguson calls it, "a direct connection with the spiritual" (p. 363-4). When they find one, they will generally jump in without questioning whether it is valid or not.

The Apostle John wrote, "Do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are of God" (1John 4:1). But the new charismatic or New Ager never seem to stop and question what the source of their new experience is: whether it is from God, from Satan, if it is a purely psychological experience with no supernatural source, or even an out-right deception.

Even A New Age commentator acknowledges this Problem, "I think one of the greatest faults in the spiritual (New Age). movements is that people are not willing to look at what is going on and say maybe it's wrong" (N. D. Smith as quoted in Ankerberg, inside front cover).

Not Testing Experiences

The kinds of experiences I am referring to are varied. For the charismatic, they can include speaking in tongues, "the baptism in the Spirit," healing, and being slain in the Spirit. For the New Ager it is usually some form of an altered state of conscience. These include drugs, TM, hypnosis, biofeedback, and also healing.

Are these two groups of experiences related? Ferguson states that a mystical experience can radically alter one's values and perception (p. 363). Any of the listed charismatic experiences can do the same. Philosopher William James states, "Mystical states seem to those who experience them to be new states of knowledge. They are insights into depths of truth unplumbed by the discursive intellect." (Ferguson, p. 371)

If this new information is God given, then it's valid. But is it? If it's of God, there should be a consistency in the revelations and they should cohere to Scripture. Also, there should be a provable nature to it, some way to validate its claims (1Thes. 5:21f).

Occult researcher Kurt Koch records several cases of his having to cast out demons who first possessed a person when he/she spoke in tongues (pp. 206-210).

Ex-charismatic C.S. Butler records an incident of a man who wanted to receive the "baptism" -
I let my mind become quite blank and began yielding myself to the external power outside myself that seemed to be pleading for full control of me. At once a feeling of paralysis began to numb my feet. It soon affected my legs...! became alarmed.

"This thing is coming upon me from beneath...." Without a moment's hesitation, I cried out, "May the blood of Christ protect me from this thing!" At once it vanished and I was normal again (p.99).

Unfortunately, most are not this discerning. The man standing beside him "received" the baptism. Compare this story with one from Koch.

He tells of how a hypnotist finally gave up when a group of Christians were praying. The hypnotist announced to the audience, "There are opposing forces present. We will stop the demonstration" (p. 98).

So clearly, one source of these experiences can be demonic. There can also be psychological forces and deception present. If a truly supernatural event has occurred, there should be no natural explanations. However, in a lot of cases there are.

Neil Babcox, another ex-charismatic, reports how he learned to speak in tongues and gained fluency through practice (pp. 64-65). I've witnessed this scenario. A seeker is told to repeat sounds the leader makes. When he does, he's told he's speaking in tongues! This is not the way things happened in the book of Acts.

Also, tongue speaking can be a normal religious phenomenon. It has been heard among Muslims, Mormons, spiritualist mediums and various other groups (Flynn, p. 184). Some Christians would say this indicates demonic activity. Personally, I feel in many cases it is simply a psychological event with no supernatural origins. Butler arrives at the same conclusion (p. 86).

Similarly, psychical/ psychological explanations can be applied to mystical experiences undergone when using drugs. These psychedelic phenomenon don't need Satan to explain them. Chemical changes in the brain are an adequate explanation.

What's interesting is, "there is no element of the LSD experience that does not have a non-drug counterpart" (Ferguson, p.375). Ferguson then refers to such New Age practices as bio-feedback, hypnosis, and TM. Could it be that these New Age practices (and maybe even some charismatic practices). somehow alter the chemical balance in the brain? If so, the resulting experiences gained from engaging in them would be natural, not supernatural experiences.

However, I do want to add here, God is sovereign. He could choose to impart a spiritual gift at His discretion (1Cor 12:18). The "fruits" of the experience need to be evaluated to determine its source. This includes both subsequent doctrinal and lifestyle changes.

Physical Healing

Belief in the miraculous healing of physical ailments is something both groups have in common. Here again, in my opinion, very often nothing supernatural is occurring.

Many claimed healings are due to the placebo effect. Most of the healings I witnessed were of pain: headaches, backaches, arthritis, etc The whipped up emotions at a healing session could easily account for the reported relief of pain.

The same is true in New Age circles. Cult researcher John Ankerberg relates, "The reports of genuine cures are not so much related to the individual treatments used; rather many times it depends on the psychological factors involved" (Ankerberg, p. 24). One proof of this is that I frequently saw the same person going forward one week who had been "healed" the previous week.

The more miraculous healing claims are usually not verifiable. Butler reports how a physician investigated 23 cases of people who were "healed" at a Kathryn Kuhlman crusade. None of the healings proved genuine (Butler, p. 78).

In four years of attending Dayspring I heard claims from healers of everything from giving sight to the blind to raising the dead. However, after viewing probably hundreds of healing sessions, I never saw anything of this sort occur. Why then do so many claim to have witnessed such events? One example will suffice.

An evangelist from "Jews for Jesus" was visiting my former church. When he gave an alter call for healing, a man with a walker slowly shuffled forward. Hands were laid on him and people started shouting, "You're healed! You're healed! Praise the Lord!" The man shuffled back to his seat using his walker.

A woman came forward with a limp. The scene was repeated with shouts praising God for her healing. She limped away. I'm serious! I felt like I was the only one who could see that the emperor had no clothes.

Again, to qualify, none of the above should be taken to mean that God can't heal. Again, He is sovereign and will do as He wills. But God doesn't need anyone to lie for Him!

The whole point of this discussion is, people are entering these movements and changing their entire world views, especially of the supernatural, because of these experiences. But if they are explainable via natural means or worse, are demonic, these people are being deceived. "The demonic can give wonderful visions and experiences in order to fool people into believing a false religious view of the world" (Ankerberg, p. 6; see 2Cor 11:14).

We need to judge our experiences by the Bible and base our beliefs on the revealed truths of Scripture, not on an experience. As Gordon Lewis, Philosophy of Religion professor at Denver Seminary, writes, "The Christian's supreme source of information about life after death and fullness of life at the present is the Bible" (quoted in Montgomery, p. 356).

Use of the Bible

The mention of the Bible above brings us to the next comparison: the two movements use of the Bible. Both groups try to show that their beliefs are consistent with Scripture. And both groups use faulty methods in their Biblical interpretations. I will use one example from each group to demonstrate this.

I continued to receive Dayspring's newsletter even after I left the ,church. In Dayspring's confession, it reads, "It is our God-given commission to proclaim the Gospel of Christ, not to defend it" (p. 5). The newsletter tried to back up this stance with Romans 8:24, "hope that is seen is not hope." The newsletter stated that this meant we shouldn't try to intellectually convince someone that the Gospel is true. We should simply tell them to believe.

There are two big problems with this. First of all, the Bible teach that we should defend the Gospel (see 1Peter 3:15; Col 4:6; Phil 1:16; Jude 3). Secondly, Romans 8:24 has nothing to do with evangelism. "Hope" in this passage refers to the resurrection. We will no longer be hoping to be resurrected after we have been resurrected. Thus, a verse has been taken out of context to make the Bible teach something that is contradicted by the rest of the Scriptures.

New Agers do the same with Psalm 82:16, "I said, 'You are gods.'" They try to use this verse to back up their pantheistic belief that we are all a part of God. Again, we have the same two problems. First, the next verse reads, "But you shall die like men" (Ps. 82:7). Thus, God is not teaching the inner divinity of all men. Secondly, the Bible from Genesis 1 :1 on does not teach pantheism and is clear on the fact there is only one God (see Isa 43:10; 44:8 other verses too numerous to site).

So both groups use faulty exegesis to try to support unbiblical beliefs.

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[> [> [> Re: jackofdemons howell----READ THIS! -- A Catholic, NOT Roman, 14:24:57 08/07/02 Wed

Parallels Between Charismatic and New Age Movements

Part Two

By Gary F. Zeolla

This discussion is continued from Parallels Between Charismatic and New Age Movements Part One.

Baptism with the Spirit

One topic we need to touch on here is the charismatic doctrine of the baptism with the Spirit. At Dayspring, this was taught to be, "a subsequent experience to salvation." And, "The initial evidence of this experience is speaking in other tongues as the Spirit gives ability" (Dayspring, p. 1).

Biblically, there are several problems here. The Bible teaches that a person receives the Spirit the moment he is converted. Moreover, if someone has not received the Spirit, he is not a Christian (see Rom. 8:9; Eph. 1:13 and John 3:6). Charismatics try to circumvent these points by making a distinction between having, receiving, being filled and being baptized with the Spirit. But the Bible uses the terms interchangeably (Acts 2;4; 10:47; 11:16).

Second, nowhere does Scripture teach that tongues is the evidence of being baptized with the Spirit. In fact, Paul makes it clear that not all believers speak in tongues (1Cor 12:30). Also, if as mentioned previously, people of various non-Christian faiths speak in tongues, how can it be a sign of Holy Spirit baptism?

This topic is important. If a believer who doesn't speak in tongues accepts this teaching, he's going to start seeking an experience that has no Scriptural basis. This can lead to demonic influence or psychological delusion. Remember the story I quoted from Butler about what happened to the man who was seeking the "baptism"?

The point is, a person should be seeking God, not an experience. In following the Lord, spiritual experiences may be encountered, but this shouldn't be the focus. Also, the experience(s) need to be judged by Scripture to test their reality.

Positive Thinking/ Confession

Another verse I heard continually taken out of context at Dayspring was Proverbs 23:7, "For as he thinks in his heart, so is he."

This verse leads to the next parallel between the two movements: positive thinking/ confession. "Healing comes as a direct result of perceiving ourselves as whole." This statement could easily have been made by someone at my old church in reference to Proverbs 23:7. The problem is, However, that this quote comes from The Aquarian Conspiracy by New Ager Marylin Ferguson (p. 150).

Also, in context, this verse from Proverbs is not teaching the power of the mind. Proverbs 23:6-8 is a warning to not be deceived by a greedy man who is appearing to be generous. He is only trying to win you over so he can use you.

In any case, positive confession was one of the biggest problems I had with Dayspring. It was usually used in reference to healing. If someone was sick, he was told to tell people he was well. This was because there was supposedly power in the words that would cause God to respond.

However, as Douglas Miller states, "God will not be controlled. Any attempt to direct or manipulate God implies rebellious idolatry" (cited by Gordon Lewis in Montgomery, p. 355). This practice is also lying, which is something God hates (see Prov. 6:17).

This idea stems from a wrong concept of God. As Butler asks, "Is the god whom we can manipulate in this way the God of the Bible? (Butler, p. 113). I say no.

At the healing session I mentioned earlier, the evangelist prayed after he called the people forward, "Lord, I demand that you heal these people."

It was the events of this night that were the last straw in causing me to leave the church. I couldn't believe what I was seeing and hearing. If God must jump when we speak, then we must be at least equal to Him. A charismatic would never say this, but it's the logical conclusion from these practices.

This attitude comes dangerously close to the New Age concept of God. In the mini-series, Out on a Limb, Shirley MacLaine stood on the beach of the Pacific Ocean chanting "I am God, I am God, I am God" (Ankerberg, p. 10). Butler implores, "Let us never lose a sense of awe as we come before a holy God" (p. 67). This warning needs to be heeded by adherents to both movements.

Attitude Toward Sin

Another indication of their faulty viewpoint of God in both movements is their attitude toward sin. Repentance is a part of Dayspring's statement of faith in reference to salvation. (p. 3). However, in practice, this was rarely preached, or when it was it was done in a light-hearted manner. The emphasis in evangelism was always the experience one could have by believing in Christ.

This emphasis was usually tied in with what Jesus could do for you: be healed, be made happy, etc. Which relates back to the positive thinking/confession beliefs. Problem is, God never promised that by becoming a Christian a person would have a carefree, healthy, happy life. In fact, the apostle's experiences were the exact opposite (see 1Cor 4:8-14).

This parallels the New Age "gospel." Sin is looked on as being an ignorance of one's divinity. (Ankerberg, p. 17). The reason to follow "the path" is usually given in terms of all the good things it will bring.

I was very disturbed when I read William James' book, The Varieties of Religious Experiences. It was disturbing that James, an atheist, could see that this health and wealth "gospel" was not what Christianity had traditionally taught.

In the chapter, "The Religion of Healthy Mindedness", James shows how the concept had its roots in the mind-cure cults of the turn of the century. On page 94, he states, "Although the disciples of the mind-cure often use Christian terminology, one sees from such quotations how widely their notion of the fall of man diverges from that of ordinary Christianity."

Throughout, as quotes from the leaders of the movement show, pantheistic terms appear: "recognize your own divinity", "Deific Breath" (p. 95), "your divine self" (p. 96), "There is nothing but God." (p. 97), "the Divinity of man's true inner self" (p. 113). These are placed beside positive thinking/confession phrases: "as a man thinketh so is he" (p. 97), [sound familiar?] "Thoughts are things"(p.99), "God is well and so are you" (p. 100).

The point is, the concept originated not in Christian circles but in the occult. Christians simply added Christian terms and started teaching it in the church. "When it spoke of the 'Christ-life' within, it meant precisely what the mind-cures meant by the spiritual nature, although they might have called it the 'Divine Energy' or the 'Infinite Life’" (Frank, p. 145).

The above is not to say that anything without Christian roots is necessarily wrong. However, in this case, it is difficult to divorce the practice from the faulty world-view underlying it.

Faulty Church History

Both movements are severely lacking a knowledge of church history is. Both ascribe to some kind of restoration belief. New Agers teach, "The early church taught reincarnation … until the sixth century when it was suppressed at a church council. (Grudel, p. 8).

An in-depth refutation of this claim would require an article in itself. Suffice it to say here, that even a cursory reading of the writings of the Church Fathers would show that they believe in resurrection, not reincarnation (see The Nature of Resurrection).

Similarly, charismatics believe the gifts were suppressed by the early Church. They further claim the gifts did not re-appear till the Azuzu Street "Revivals" of the early 1900’s.

However, there was no suppression of the gifts. They just gradually lost importance after apostolic times. Also, there have been isolated groups throughout Church history that have manifested the charismata. However, from the Montanists of the second century to the Mormons of the nineteenth century, many have been heretical or, at least, at the "fringe" of the Christian faith (Butler, pp. 23-68).

The purpose of the sign gifts was to authenticate the message of the apostles (Heb. 2:4; 2Cor 12:12). As such, it is not surprising they lost importance when the apostles died. Whether the gifts are for today is not the issue, the real problem is the excessive importance placed on them by charismatics.

The above points caused me to start questioning the validity of the charismata in my former church. These facts were also instrumental in leading C.S. Butler and Neil Babcox to re-examine their beliefs. Their stories are recorded in their books listed in the bibliography.

Eschatology

Both movements are very interested in eschatology (end-times prophecy). As the name implies, the New Agers think they are going to usher in a "New Age" for society. Charismatics and all Christians are also looking for a new age. However, our new age will be brought about by the Second Coming of Christ. It will not come about by attaining to "Omega" -- the unification of conscience and culture, as Douglas Groothius describes the New Age belief (Groothius, p. 118).

New Age goals are:
1. A one-world government.
2. A one-world economic system.
3. A one-world culture including a one-world religion.
4. A god-like world ruler who will help to implement these changes (Ankerberg, p. 25)

This all sounds dangerously close to what some Christians believe is described in Revelation 13.

Now where do the charismatics fit into this scenario? First of all, charismatic groups throughout the ages have attempted to predict the exact time of the parousia. This practice occurs despite Jesus' clear statements not to do so (Matt. 24:37; Acts 1:7).

This kind of attempted prediction is what exposed the Montanist prophets to be false. Their prediction of the Second coming did not come to pass (D. J. Wright, in Elwell, p. 732). When prophecies like these fail it can lead to great disappointment (See Is the End Near? - Part One).

Add these practices to the charismatics’ emphasis on miracles and it could lead disappointed church members right into the anti-Christ’s arms. The Bible warns the anti-Christ is coming with, "counterfeit miracles, sign and wonders." (2Thes 2:9). I began to feel that charismatics could be the first ones deceived.

Transcending Traditional Belief Boundaries

Both movements are already transcending traditional belief boundaries. As Schaeffer states, "Instead of accepting a person on the basis of what he believes which has always been the Christian way, it's 'do you have these external manifestations?'" (Schaeffer, p. 391)

This statement could apply to New Agers as well. Schaeffer goes on to say, "An example of the down-playing of content is that some are now lamenting the Reformation" (p. 391).

Butler reiterates the same idea, "There are charismatics who have gone so far as to say that they believe that the reformation was a dreadful mistake" (p. 103). This attitude is because, "The charismatic renewal has now become widely established in the Roman Catholic Church" (Butler. p. 105).

The pope would love to see all the "separated brethren" back under his authority. Pope John XIII stated, "We cherish the hope of your return..." (Knolls, p. 74).

The problem is, this unity would be on the basis of experience, not a reconciliation of beliefs. It could only be realized by an extreme overemphasis on experience and anti-intellectualism of these movements.

Francis Schaeffer sums up the problem very well:
We must, of course, be careful here, because we are not saying that there shouldn't be any experience or emotion. There is and should be. But neither experience nor emotion is the basis for our faith. The basis is that certain things are true. the whole man, including the intellect, is to act upon the fact that certain things are true. That, of course, will lead to an experience (Schaeffer; p. 391).

Evangelical Response

What should be the evangelical response to these movements? This question is especially important since many in these movements have some sort of traditional Christian background. As Ankerberg states, "The church needs to have a higher degree of commitment to Christ as Lord in every area of life, to studying and living the Bible's teachings, and to learning apologetics" (p. 22). We need to give a stronger emphasis to teaching theology, church history, and apologetics in our churches.

On the other hand, we should recognize the experiential side to Christianity. Nothing is worse than a dead intellectualism. We need to acknowledge the importance of the Holy Spirit's work in our prayers, worship and evangelism.

However, learning or offering an experience must never become the focus of our activities. The focus needs to stay on God and people's need for a Savior (Rom 3:23).

Lastly, both of these movements grow out of a faulty viewpoint of God. Shirley MacLaine could never shout "I am God" and the charismatic would never try to manipulate God via positive confession if they truly understood the holiness and majesty of God.

R. C. Sproul, in his book The Holiness of God, states, "I was a Unitarian of sorts, a Unitarian of the second person of the trinity. I knew who Jesus was, but the Father was shrouded in mystery." (p 14).

There is too much of the "You've got a friend in Jesus" mentality going around. We must never forget that God, "...is the blessed, and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords; who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light; whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen" (1Tim 6:15-16).


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For follow-ups to this two-part article,
see Parallels Article - "Hate Mail?"
and Parallels Article: Comments.

The links below are direct links to where the book can be purchased from Books-A-Million.
Bibliography:
Ankerberg, John and John Weldon, The Facts on the New Age Movement . Chattanooga, TN: The John Ankerberg Evangelistic Asso., 1988.
Babcox, Neil. A Search for Charismatic Reality. Portland, OR: Multnomah Press, 1985.
Butler, C. S. Test the Spirits: The Charismatic Phenomenon. Great Britain: Evangelical Press, 1985.
Dayspring, Building Blocks of Truth: What We Believe.
Elwell, Walter ED. Evangelical Dictionary of Theology . Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Book House, 1984.
Ferguson, Marylin. The Aguarian Conspiracy. New York: St. Matin's Press, 1984.
Fields, Rick. Chop Wood Carry Water. New York: St. Martin's Press, 1984.
Flynn, Leslie B. 19 Gifts of the Spirit . Wheaton, IL: Victor Books, 1980.
Frank, Douglas. Less Than Conquerors. Grand Rapids, MI: Wm. B. Eardmanns Publishing Co., 1986.
Groothuis, Douglas. Unmasking the New Age . Downers Grove, IL: Intervarsity Press, 1986.
Gudel, Joseph. "Reincarnation, Did the Church Suppress It?" The Christian Research Journal. Summer 1987, pp. 8-12.
James, William. The Varieties of Religious Experience. New York:; Macmillam Publ. Co., 1961.
Knolls, Richard. Roman Catholicism: Issues and Evidences. Chattanooga, TN: John Ankerberg Show.
Koch, Kurt. Occult ABC . Grand Rapids, MI: Kregal Publ., 1980.
Montgomery, John Warwick, Ed. Demon Possession . Minneapolis, MN: Bethany House Publ., 1976.
Schaeffer, Francis A., The New Super-Spirituality, contained in Complete Works of Francis Schaeffer . Vol.3. Westchester, IL: Crossway Books, 1982.
Sproul, R. C. Holiness of God . Wheaton, IL: Tyndale House Publ. Inc., 1985.

Parallels Between Charismatic and New Age Movements. Copyright © 1999 by Gary F. Zeolla of Darkness to Light ministry (www.dtl.org).

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[> Re: Welcome jack and WOG -- A Catholic, NOT Roman, 06:09:13 08/08/02 Thu

Welcome jack-of-demons howell, please keep reading here so you will come under the conviction of the Holy Spirit upon hearing the TRUTH as opposed to the charismaniac lies of the devil that have you in their grasp and REPENT!

You, as a devotee of the heretic and false teacher Finis J. Dake have been further deceived by the demon spirits you allowed place in your life when you were a wiccan witch, blinded by the false sense of "power" those demons have convinced you of, you are in the same category of false prophet as Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland, Rodney Howard Browne, Kenneth Hagin, Joyce Meyer, Crefalo Dollar and the rest of the Word of Faith false prophets.

Yes, we know the litany of false prophesies and teachings that have come from the mouth of people like Benny Hinn, Rodney Howard Browne, Kenneth Copeland and others & we have been warned how serious their sin is e.g. that prophet shall die & thou shalt not be afraid of him. When we hear Benny Hinn bringing a curse against those true men of God and their families and children who oppose his error and nefarious ways, we are told quite clearly not to be afraid of him, and that he is only speaking presumptuously from the futility of his own heart.

You speak presumpuously from your own wicked heart, jack-of-demons howell, and are assisted by a "hireling" named, WOG, who also is under great delusion, and who willingly allows wolves into the sheepsgate to play among the sheep.

So, please keep reading here jack-of-demons howell, there is a lot here that YOU NEED to hear.

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[> Re: Welcome jack and WOG -- A Catholic, NOT Roman, 06:10:06 08/08/02 Thu

Welcome jack-of-demons howell, please keep reading here so you will come under the conviction of the Holy Spirit upon hearing the TRUTH as opposed to the charismaniac lies of the devil that have you in their grasp and REPENT!

You, as a devotee of the heretic and false teacher Finis J. Dake have been further deceived by the demon spirits you allowed place in your life when you were a wiccan witch, blinded by the false sense of "power" those demons have convinced you of, you are in the same category of false prophet as Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland, Rodney Howard Browne, Kenneth Hagin, Joyce Meyer, Crefalo Dollar and the rest of the Word of Faith false prophets.

Yes, we know the litany of false prophesies and teachings that have come from the mouth of people like Benny Hinn, Rodney Howard Browne, Kenneth Copeland and others & we have been warned how serious their sin is e.g. that prophet shall die & thou shalt not be afraid of him. When we hear Benny Hinn bringing a curse against those true men of God and their families and children who oppose his error and nefarious ways, we are told quite clearly not to be afraid of him, and that he is only speaking presumptuously from the futility of his own heart.

You speak presumpuously from your own wicked heart, jack-of-demons howell, and are assisted by a "hireling" named, WOG, who also is under great delusion, and who willingly allows wolves into the sheepsgate to play among the sheep.

So, please keep reading here jack-of-demons howell, there is a lot here that YOU NEED to hear.

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[> Re: Welcome jack and WOG -- A Catholic, NOT Roman, 06:36:11 08/08/02 Thu

Keep reading here jack-of-demons howell, so that you will come under the conviction of the Holy Spirit upon hearing the TRUTH, so that your heart will be led to REPENT of heresies of Finis J. Dake and the Word of Faith false prophets.

You being a devotee of Finis Dake, like the other false prophets of the Word of Faith cult, Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland, Kenneth Hagin, Rodney Howard Browne, Joyce Meyer, etc are in the very same category of wolf in sheep's clothing and are a purveyor of doctrines of demons.

Yes, we know the litany of false prophesies and teachings that have come from the mouth of people like Benny Hinn, Rodney Howard Browne, Kenneth Copeland and others & we have been warned how serious their sin is e.g. that prophet shall die & thou shalt not be afraid of him. When we hear Benny Hinn bringing a curse against those true men of God and their families and children who oppose his error and nefarious ways, we are told quite clearly not to be afraid of him, and that he is only speaking presumptuously from the futility of his own heart. We also know that we are not to listen to the prophet even if his prophesy does come to pass if he seeks to turn your heart away from the Lord, thy God.

You speak presumpuously from your own heart, speaking lies and damnable heresies. Keep reading here---often!

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[> another case of non-discernment -- A Catholic, NOT Roman, 13:42:35 08/06/02 Tue

Murray
In Response To dori
Tuesday August 6, 2002 at 10:10

"Well, again, the same case can be made for OUR seemingly tired old mantra of the Bible and the life of Christ, can't it?"

You are, of course, kidding. Faith in Christ is the most exciting, most wonderful experience we can have in this life -- by far!!! He is the most wonderful, the most excellent Person we can ever meet and become acquainted with. He forgives our every sin, meets our every need, heals our every disease, loves us with an everlasting love, gives our lives meaning and purpose and direction, gives us assurance of our eternal home with Him, gives us a foretaste of it in this life, strengthens us and empowers us to live this life with confidence and to eagerly anticipate the one to come. Get to know Him better, Doris.


After all this time, Murray, you should have been able to discern that "doris" doesn't know Christ at all.
Instead of "doris" getting to know Christ better, "doris" need to be "born again of the Spirit of God" so she can know Christ at all. At this point, "doris" is as lost and blind as her new age guru, minder.

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[> dori doesn't know Christ -- A Catholic, NOT Roman, 13:53:18 08/06/02 Tue

dori
In Response To Murray
Tuesday August 6, 2002 at 10:18

Maybe you're right. Maybe I don't know Christ. At least not your version. I am going to be late for work if I don't get a move on. God bless.

doris, you know OF a christ, but that christ is a false christ, one that you have contrived in your head being influenced by new age gurus and false religionists----you have no idea of the Jesus Christ of the Bible and historic Christian faith. You need to be born again by falling on the Rock of Christ with a broken and contrite spirit.

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[> Re: Good 'old doritos Feel The depth of her spirit & Warmth of her LUV -- A Catholic, NOT Roman, 06:20:03 08/06/02 Tue

What we have in that exchange between the dorki one, and Maggie the Sabellian Monarchian Modalist, is a preview of how the wicked will be devouring each other in the Great Tribulation. But really, that is what we see at the Apostate1 forum daily, played to the tune of Dueling Devils.

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[> Re: Not Surprised! Are U? -- A Catholic, NOT Roman, 07:33:26 08/05/02 Mon

demon jack howell as a devotee of the false teacher Finis J. Dake preaches another gospel just like Dake, and is a false gospel like the Roman Catholic false gospel which is dependant on what man does rather than trusting solely on the complete merit of the Cross of Christ.

The following quote confirms it:

Salvation according to Dake, is conditional upon man remaining faithful until the end. In response to unconditional eternal security, Dake says; "Eternal life is not an eternal possession until the end of a life of holiness, for one can make a failure before then and be lost just as Adam did in the beginning.19 1 John 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

That is taken from:http://www.ministryhelps.com/Catalog/Dake/Dake%20Theology.htm

Finis Dake conveniently does not interpret Scripture in the full scope of Scripture, whereas Jesus says none of His sheep can be snatched from His hand, and those who believe(trust in Him) have(present tense--meaning it is their posession already) eternal life, not might have, not maybe someday will have, not will have after they have done everything they can to secure salvation, but they HAVE eternal life through Christ Jesus's Atonement.

Finis Dake make salvation man centered instead of Christ centered. In that aspect Finis Dake is a Pelagian heretic like Charles Finney, by setting down a set of rules to be followed in order to secure salvation.

No wonder the charismaniacs are as confused and convaluted as the Roman Catholics, they had long string of false prophets and false teachers who introduced all manners of heresy into pentecostalism from the beginning of that movement. Most are being deceived and prepared to accept the Antichrist as their savior.

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[> Re: ACNR/Dolly/Bethany/Tamarisk & Saints -- enemy of false religionests in bishops titles, 20:58:53 08/03/02 Sat

It is a strange and fearful quirk of human nature to
charge a man with being an enemy though his only
motive is to preach the truth. Thus Paul inquired of
the Galatians who were being led astray by false
teachers: "Am I therefore become your enemy, because I
tell you the truth?" (Gal. 4:16)

It's not so strange that the enemies of The Truth hate those who preach The Truth and stand convicted for loving darkness more than The Light.

John 3:19-21

19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."

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