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Date Posted: 03:08:52 03/04/03 Tue
Author: Chris Henry
Author Host/IP: cache3-2.ruh.isu.net.sa / 212.138.47.13
Subject: Perhaps it's their vivid memory of the carnage of the last 2 world wars , as evoked by this poem, that makes them want to avoid war if there's an alternative. Who remembers what WWI was about, and what did it achieve? 25.000 French soldiers served in the last Gulf War, so they'll fight when there's obvious aggression, but they clearly feel this proposed war is about a non-existent threat based on a tissue of lies. However you should post your question on a French site to get an authentic French viewpoint.
In reply to:
SG [Whatever the reason, their active anti-Americanism has become more than a civil disagreement.]
's message, "I don't understand your point. Do you mean they remember inviting Hitler to Paris and long for those days again? I don;t mean to be glib, but your answer is too cryptic for me to grasp your intended meaning due to your pronoun use "It's because...." If I interpret what you wrote literally you said they forget perhaps because they remember more vividly. ????? Anyway, I hope you enjoyed reading that old poem again." on 21:51:28 03/03/03 Mon
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"Perhaps it's their vivid memory of the carnage of the last 2 world wars" I doubt it, Chris! The French have become all but insignificant and they are trying desperately to retain some but being a bug up the ass of the US and Great Britain in what is a legitimate concern, world wide Islamofascist militancy empowered and supported by the likes of Saddam Hussein and others. -- William, 11:43:09 03/04/03 Tue (cache-mtc-ah04.proxy.aol.com/64.12.96.169)
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The French interest and hence opposition to any attack on Iraq is based on their lust of blood for oil and other considerations. France is likely Iraq's number one business partner and has billions in IOUs with Iraq. France does not wish to lose her investment and France wants her money. France purchases and resells Oil from Iraq. She also conducts other business with Iraq such as building a nuclear reactor which Iraq was using to develop materials to build a nuclear arsenal. The Israelis destroyed that and rightfully so. -- William, 11:45:14 03/04/03 Tue (cache-mtc-ah04.proxy.aol.com/64.12.96.169)
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Yes, France sold them that reactor, in 1975. If we're going back to the 70's and 80's then few countries come out squeaky clean. See the list in the New York Times http://www.iraqwatch.org/suppliers/whoarmediraq.pdf Germany took 50%, France was only 5%. We were 3.5% with the guidance systems we sold for the missiles they later sent against us. Of course, at that time, Saddam was our friend, because the Iranians were our enemy. It was a case of "My enemy's enemy is my friend". Plus ca change, as the French would say.. -- Chris Henry, 12:33:04 03/04/03 Tue (cache3-2.ruh.isu.net.sa/212.138.47.13)
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Iran declared themselves to be an enemy of the US. At that time Iran had already taken part in attacking the US Embassy and holding US citizens hostage. The US did NOT think Iraq was their friend. The US did provide advice and a minimum of material. Nevertheless that does NOT negate the authenticity of the need to disarm Iraq and topple Saddam Hussein. -- William, 15:42:38 03/07/03 Fri (cache-mtc-ah04.proxy.aol.com/64.12.96.169)
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It was all right for Clinton to bomb Kosovo, Bosnia, Herzegovenia, etc., and to do so without UN approval but these same people who applauded those actions have their panties in a knot over regime change and disarmament of a cruel megalomaniac who has abused his people, supported terrorism, and, in the "new" world in which super empowered individuals can murder millions with Weapons of Mass Destruction, as they did in Bali, NYC (World Trade Center), Kenya, Tanzania, and elsewhere, is a threat to others including US citizens. -- William, 15:45:32 03/07/03 Fri (cache-mtc-ah04.proxy.aol.com/64.12.96.169)
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Also France has sold quite a few materials to Iraq, as has Germany, who has sold even more, which have been used to develop Weapons of Mass Destruction. France has helped perpetuate the suffering of the people in Iraq by standing by Iraq and continuing to do business with Iraq and France has prevented improvements in the lives of Iraqis by standing against regime change. By opposing action against Saddam, France has encouraged Saddam and his abusive regime.Another thing to consider is that the Frence are terribley fearful of Islamofascism and Islam itself.
-- William, 11:51:35 03/04/03 Tue (cache-mtc-ah04.proxy.aol.com/64.12.96.169)
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There are at least 6.5 million Muslims living in France and they have changed the face of France. The French feel threatened by them, having experienced terrorist bombings and such themselves.Regarding France and WW II, from 60,000 to 70,000 Jews were rounded up by the French and sent off to death camps without even so much as a request from the Germans. The French were more powerful than the Germans during the 1930s after WW 1 but they did not act to stop Germany's advancement and development, which broke the resolution Germany agreed to at the end of WW I.
-- William, 12:02:55 03/04/03 Tue (cache-mtc-ah04.proxy.aol.com/64.12.96.169)
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The French and the British declared war on Hitler in 1939, while we waited until Dec 1941 before we did anything about him, and only then because we were attacked by Japan. A collaborator government was involved in deporting Jews, but they got justice from the rest of France at the end of the war. Throughout the occupation many thousands of brave French men and women fought in the Resistance, without the protection of the Geneva Convention, so capture meant death. -- Chris Henry, 03:47:43 03/05/03 Wed (cache10-2.ruh.isu.net.sa/212.138.47.29)
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These attacks on the French are totally unworthy, believe it or not they are entitled to disagree with the US position on Iraq without this sort of attack and "Old Europe" jibes. We can hardly squeal about anti-Americanism if we insult other countries like this. -- Chris Henry, 03:48:48 03/05/03 Wed (cache8-2.ruh.isu.net.sa/212.138.47.27)
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Of course the French, or anyone else, are entitled to disagree with our positions and not support us. We, in turn, are likewise entitled to exercise our displeasure with them through means of verbal dissent or, more importantly, a financial boycott. May the best man win. Quelle dommage. -- JL, 20:02:22 03/05/03 Wed (pcp01376707pcs.selrsv01.pa.comcast.net/68.80.69.241)
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Yes, that would be really smart, allow a disagreement about a squalid little Middle East dictator to spill over into mutual boycotts and trade wars. Saddam Hussein would love that, even posthumously. Voire, quelle folie. -- Chris Henry, 03:43:50 03/06/03 Thu (cache3-2.ruh.isu.net.sa/212.138.47.13)
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I suspect that it would also appeal to Osama Bin Laden's sense of irony. Attack the USA from Afghanistan, and you set the USA and GB against France, Germany, Russia etc. He could just sit relax in his cave and enjoy the show on satellite TV. By the way, how does a country that is a net importer of capital as we are, impose a financial boycott? -- Chris Henry, 03:55:08 03/06/03 Thu (cache10-2.ruh.isu.net.sa/212.138.47.29)
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First of all, our problems with the French go far beyond this single episode. This was the proverbial 'straw'. How do we impose a financial boycott? One wallet at a time. Don't think this is happening? I do. -- JL, 18:44:10 03/06/03 Thu (pcp01376707pcs.selrsv01.pa.comcast.net/68.80.69.241)
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This is beautiful -- Rajean, 08:41:49 03/08/03 Sat (adsl-65-42-83-66.dsl.chcgil.ameritech.net/65.42.83.66)
I'm with Chris on this particular point. And I keep asking myself...When did America get appointed as the self-righteous Pit Bulls of enforced Democratic Tyranny? When the Iraqis begin to rise up and rebel, then we might be able to justify an assault on their government in the name of Human Rights violation.
Osama and Hussein hate each other.
The French hate Americans. (Im part French and learned this years ago)
Bush hates Hussein cause he tried to "kill my daddy" (Did anyone see Hussein at the White House with an AK-47??)
We held Russia in check for over 40 years, but we can't control the actions of a third rate dictator in a second rate country?
How far could he lob one of his weapons? About 900 kilometers...Just far enough to piss off his neighbors, who would then annihilate him.
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Rajean, times have changed a bit since the cold war. Now there are super empowered individuals who can carry a bomb, a flask of VX gas, Serin gas, Anthrax, nuclear devices, etc. Saddam Hussein himself has been supporting and training terrorism for many years. He signed a cease agreement fire in 1991 during the "Gulf War" in which he agreed to disarm and discard and/or destroy his Weapons of Mass destruction arsenal. Instead he played hide and seek and spy and harass with the UN inspectors throughout the 1990s and again since the implementation of resolution 1441. -- William, 11:27:17 03/08/03 Sat (cache-rl02.proxy.aol.com/152.163.189.98)
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Bush is not after Hussein because "he tried to kill my daddy." That is a stupid, idiotic, immature, and disingenuous claim perpetrated by the brain dead "hate America" crowd, like the claim that this is about "blood for oil" and other idiotic claims. It is pure propaganda. In fact, for the French this IS about blood for oil. By doing business with Iraq and by openly aggressively opposing taking action against Saddam Hussein France has actually perpetuated the suffering of the Iraqi people and placed others in danger by encouraging Saddam Hussein and his thugs. -- William, 11:30:32 03/08/03 Sat (cache-rl02.proxy.aol.com/152.163.189.98)
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"so they'll fight when there's obvious aggression, but they clearly feel this proposed war is about a non-existent threat based on a tissue of lies." I disagree with this assessment, Chris. They do not clearly think this. In fact they have admitted that they think Saddam and Iraq are a threat and that they do have WMDs. They merely don't wish to lose their investment and the, the French, do have other fish to fry. -- William, 12:18:26 03/04/03 Tue (cache-mtc-ah04.proxy.aol.com/64.12.96.169)
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The French have to deal with the backlash of Algeria, a place where the French had exercised their imperialism, and the French, again, do not wish to have to deal with the Muslim population in their own borders, something they have to deal with and will deal with sooner or later. They will have no choice for eventually the Muslims will dominate the political landscape there. -- William, 12:24:46 03/04/03 Tue (cache-mtc-ah04.proxy.aol.com/64.12.96.169)
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