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Nope -- no terror connection in Iraq -- yeah sure . . . just a start . . . much more to come -- SurveyGuy, 08:57:07 03/30/03 Sun (pcp01422563pcs.lndsd201.pa.comcast.net/68.81.153.209)

U.S. Forces Face Iraqi 'Terror Behavior'

. . . he said an Iraqi woman who waved a white flag of surrender was later found hanging from a street lampost.

"Iraqi terror organizations continue to force young men to come out of the towns and fight," Renuart told a briefing at Central Command's forward headquarters in Qatar.

"They're probably being forced to fight because they fear for their families as opposed to being loyal to the regime."

(Just click story headline to view full story at Reuters)

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Replies:
- No one doubts that this is a vicious regime. However to equate these "terror organisations" with the likes of Al Qaeda is misleading and dangerous. They pose a threat to their own population, but not the world at large. Meanwhile trouble is brewing in the home of the real terrorists - see http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/2897137.stm - and the danger is that we've taken our eye off that ball. And then of course there's North Korea, stirring up their own form of trouble. (NT) -- Chris Henry, 01:19:37 03/31/03 Mon
  - I didn't mention Al Qaeda -- you did. I don't care what group a terrorist belongs to --- I just by their behavior. In this case if i were to conjecture a group relation, it would likely be Hamas. Seems that they were recommending certain behaviors of Iraqis a few weeks back and then such actions did occur. Would you have left that poor woman's corpse hanging from that tree? This is not premptive ... did you not see the death in New York and Washington D.C. That "pre-emptive" crap is just propaganda and you know it. (NT) -- SG, 09:54:39 03/31/03 Mon
    - Yes, the "pre-emptive" argument is propaganda. It was specifically advocated by Bush and Wolfowitz, among others, in the run-up to this war. See "Bush aides press case for pre-emptive strikes" in http://www.washtimes.com/national/default-200291112438.htm. Their words, not mine. And they are, as you say, faeces. (NT) -- Chris Henry, 02:05:16 04/01/03 Tue
    - ...and I did see the 9/11 attacks, 1700 onwards local time, on BBC and CNN. They must have been on every TV in the world (apart from North Korea). Bin Laden was watching, on satellite TV, in his cave, from Afghanistan (not Iraq, as many seem to think). (NT) -- Chris Henry, 03:51:35 04/01/03 Tue
- It would be nice and neat if we could deal with each of these in turn, however the enemy tends not to fit in with our plans. I dread to imagine a summer where are own forces are still sweating it out in Iraq, while a new Taliban Republic is declared in S.E. Afghanistan and North Korea takes a "pre-emptive, just to defend ourselves" walk across the DMZ. (NT) -- Chris Henry, 01:22:37 03/31/03 Mon
Looking for moral authority . . . -- SurveyGuy, 20:52:58 03/29/03 Sat (pcp01422563pcs.lndsd201.pa.comcast.net/68.81.153.209)
I have visited the "news" page http://www.catholicnexus.com/ where they have an article that calls the war in Iraq an "immoral war." I then wondered, what is a moral war? Others call it an "illegal war." What then is a "legal war?"

Then I read the separate page on articles about the "crisis in the church" and asked myself, how do these people have the chutzpah to even speak about morality when all around them for decades morality and decency have been not only ignored, but covered up?

I have heard no outcries about the atrocities in Iraq over the past decade. I heard little concern of the 1000s who died in New York and Washington D.C. -- just some lip service. I guess Iraqis are less important than those killed by Milosevic's cronies. Or is it because of the (illegal) trading relationships with Iraq? Maybe what we had was really an immoral peace as well as an illegal peace. (Why not?)

Where was the indignation during Operation Desert Fox when Clinton bombed Iraq? There was none. I wonder why.

So tell me ... (1) What is a moral war and (2) What is a legal war? If a war is moral, does it have to be leagl? If it is legal, need it be moral as well?

Then the big question that I never seem to hear answered, if not this solution, then what alternative?

Has anyone seen any viable alternatives ofered that are legal and moral? The only one I heard was to send an assassination squad. A moral act? A legal one?

Just questions that bounce around in the space not otherwise occupied between my ears. I don't expect that I will ever have a satisifactory answer, but somehow having the feeling that something is being done is more satisfying than more worthless chatter and false civility. Now we can see the anti-semitism in France and Germany that is still alive. We can see the extent of anti-Americanism within our own country. It is an awakening experience.

What ios troubling are the fascist actions in the private sector, like the saleman who was fired because he sent an email (to his sales group) listing French companies if anyone wanted to boycott. While a repremand for using company email for private correspondance would be in order, firing their #1 sales person seemed a bit extreme.

In France they attack a MacDonalds. It is just a brand. The location is run and franchised by a French citizen who hires French workers. They just hurt Frenchmen in the name of symbolism. Protesting must make people stupid. Maybe carrying those signs cuts off the circulation somewhat. They also attacked an 8-ft replica of the Statue of Liberty and a 9-11 memorial to those who died.

Some restaurants won't serve Coca-Cola. Now there's a moral choice . . . or is it that they really wish to sell more wine since we won't be buying it. I say let our State Stores stock French wines and let the market determine. Heck, they're only 1.5% of all the wines sold here in PA anyway and their sales have increased last quarter more than other wines. So be it. Boycotts should come from the grass roots and not forced on people. It would then be interesting to see what happens this next quarter.

In the meantime all we can do is stay informed and question when reported "facts" seem to not jibe with common sense.

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Replies:
- Please excuse all my typos. I just didn't feel like reposting. (NT) -- SG, 10:38:24 03/30/03 Sun
- I'll duck the "big question" - too early in the morning! However, on the subject of boycotts, I'd just like to observe that these are often self-defeating - our world is too intertwined up in terms of trade for the effects to be neat and pinpointed. Our local Burger King has closed down as the result of a local anti-US boycott that's been on for several months. Who suffered? One Saudi franchise owner and 8 Pakistani staff. Who benefited? The KFC down the road - people still want fast food. (NT) -- Chris Henry, 01:33:25 03/31/03 Mon
  - We agree, but it does make people who want to respond feel better. I decry boycotts by governments or organizations and leave it to the people. I also decryed the institutional boycotts of South Africa investments years ago. To me, grass roots boycotts serve to create awareness of the interdependence. Still French wines come only from France and I prefer New World style wines anyway. I still buy good German and Alsace wines. Your local boycott was of a brand, not a product. Again -- ignorance. They just need to rename it BurgerSheik. (NT) -- SG, 10:04:56 03/31/03 Mon
And now for something completely different . . . -- SurveyGuy, 20:29:13 03/26/03 Wed (NoHost/68.81.153.53)
Just click on the picture to go to a hilarious website ...

Soldier Of Surrender - The Official Magazine Of The French Army

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Replies:
- I'm glad someone has a sense of humor. You might enjoy this, then. http://www.theonion.com/ (NT) -- Chris Henry, 06:33:11 03/27/03 Thu
  - Thanks. Most regulars here are long time fans of The Onion. My favorite piece there is the ANA (Americans with No Abilities Act). (NT) -- SG, 18:56:47 03/30/03 Sun
- I found that to be a clever, humorous, and refreshing experience. (NT) -- William, 17:48:00 03/27/03 Thu
- Move over Vogue & GQ... (NT) -- Spock, 15:36:09 03/28/03 Fri
I don't expect anything to come of this, but it would be nice to see Chirac squirm on this -- SG, 10:55:16 03/30/03 Sun (pcp01422563pcs.lndsd201.pa.comcast.net/68.81.153.209)
http://www.newsmax.com/showinsidecover.shtml?a=2003/3/28/204350
U.S. Watchdog Group Files Nuclear Charges Against Chirac

French President Jacques Chirac is guilty of illegal proliferation of nuclear technology and arms trafficking, a judicial watchdog group charges.
Judicial Watch has filed legal complaints against the French chief executive with both Interpol and European Police Office (Europol), and is demanding an investigation of the blockbuster charges of massive corruption.

Judicial Watch said it had filed complaints "for the unlawful proliferation of nuclear technology, the unlawful trafficking of arms and military technology, and the violation of UN trade sanctions imposed after the 1991 Gulf War, as well as additional UN sanctions relating to the so-called 'oil-for-food' program."

In a statement the group said that it particularly wanted an investigation of "financial contacts and dealings" between Chirac's Rally for the Republic party and other parties, and government officials and corporations.

"These unlawful activities involve private persons from France, Iraq, the People's Republic of China and Syria. It is likely that several other parties and countries, unknown at this time, are also involved in the criminal conspiracy."

The statement referred to a 1991 book by French journalists Claude Angeli and Stephanie Mesnier which included details from Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein revealing his links with French politicians.

In the statement Judicial Watch chairman Larry Klayman stressed that Chirac had also been accused of accepting bribes while he was mayor of Paris but that a court had ruled he could not be prosecuted until he left office.

"However, Interpol and Europol have no constraints on beginning an investigation of President Chirac," Klayman said, adding: "He and his colleagues of violations of law and public trust are a disgrace to the high ideals upon which the French Republic was founded."

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Modifying the constitution...? -- Rod, 11:48:04 05/17/03 Sat (NoHost/64.255.100.112)
Modify the constitution because it is basically a legal contract? That is the dumbest thing I believe I have ever heard.
The constitution is not just a 'legal contract'. It is the basis of our nation and the foundation by which we perpetuate ourselves as Americans. If you "modify" that document, you change this country, and not necessarily for the better.
There is a diffence between "amending" and "Modifying."
We amend when its a good thing (with the exception of the prohibition. That was a bad idea and America learned its lesson and repealed it.)
But modifying the constitution the way this so-called "patriot" act determines is not only self-destructive for this nation... it is seditious. Those who support it are traitors, pure and simple. Anyone who supports undermining the document which this nation was founded upon and defined by ...those people are the true traitors and ironically (compared to the Act's name) the most UN-patriotic.
My family has been in defense of this nation in every war before this one, all the way back to our war for Independence. And I will be damned if I allow my ancestors' struggles, to win and maintain liberty and freedom, die at the hands of a cocaine-using, drunk-driving, greedy, spoiled, rich Texas oil brat who cares nothing for anyone but himself or his pack of oil-corp/ceo buddies.
Anyone who argues for the validity of the patriot act or the just means by which Bush reigns shoot be placed in front of a firing squad for treason.
Pure and simple.
If this offends you, then I guess you better check you ethics and loyalty real quick.
We are citizens and defenders of this nation... not one spoiled little rich kid destroying it.

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Our treatment of prisoners-of-war, and our double standards. Is this how we demonstrate our civilised behavior, our belief in the rule of law, our moral superiority? -- Chris Henry, 01:53:38 03/25/03 Tue (cache10-2.ruh.isu.net.sa/212.138.47.29)
George Monbiot
Tuesday March 25, 2003
The Guardian

Suddenly, the government of the United States has discovered the virtues of international law. It may be waging an illegal war against a sovereign state; it may be seeking to destroy every treaty which impedes its attempts to run the world, but when five of its captured soldiers were paraded in front of the Iraqi television cameras on Sunday, Donald Rumsfeld, the US defence secretary, immediately complained that "it is against the Geneva convention to show photographs of prisoners of war in a manner that is humiliating for them".
He is, of course, quite right. Article 13 of the third convention, concerning the treatment of prisoners, insists that they "must at all times be protected... against insults and public curiosity". This may number among the less heinous of the possible infringements of the laws of war, but the conventions, ratified by Iraq in 1956, are non-negotiable. If you break them, you should expect to be prosecuted for war crimes.
This being so, Rumsfeld had better watch his back. For this enthusiastic convert to the cause of legal warfare is, as head of the defence department, responsible for a series of crimes sufficient, were he ever to be tried, to put him away for the rest of his natural life.
His prison camp in Guantanamo Bay, in Cuba, where 641 men (nine of whom are British citizens) are held, breaches no fewer than 15 articles of the third convention. The US government broke the first of these (article 13) as soon as the prisoners arrived, by displaying them, just as the Iraqis have done, on television. In this case, however, they were not encouraged to address the cameras. They were kneeling on the ground, hands tied behind their backs, wearing blacked-out goggles and earphones. In breach of article 18, they had been stripped of their own clothes and deprived of their possessions. They were then interned in a penitentiary (against article 22), where they were denied proper mess facilities (26), canteens (28), religious premises (34), opportunities for physical exercise (38), access to the text of the convention (41), freedom to write to their families (70 and 71) and parcels of food and books (72).
They were not "released and repatriated without delay after the cessation of active hostilities" (118), because, the US authorities say, their interrogation might, one day, reveal interesting information about al-Qaida. Article 17 rules that captives are obliged to give only their name, rank, number and date of birth. No "coercion may be inflicted on prisoners of war to secure from them information of any kind whatever". In the hope of breaking them, however, the authorities have confined them to solitary cells and subjected them to what is now known as "torture lite": sleep deprivation and constant exposure to bright light. Unsurprisingly, several of the prisoners have sought to kill themselves, by smashing their heads against the walls or trying to slash their wrists with plastic cutlery.
The US government claims that these men are not subject to the Geneva conventions, as they are not "prisoners of war", but "unlawful combatants". The same claim could be made, with rather more justice, by the Iraqis holding the US soldiers who illegally invaded their country. But this redefinition is itself a breach of article 4 of the third convention, under which people detained as suspected members of a militia (the Taliban) or a volunteer corps (al-Qaida) must be regarded as prisoners of war.
Even if there is doubt about how such people should be classified, article 5 insists that they "shall enjoy the protection of the present convention until such time as their status has been determined by a competent tribunal". But when, earlier this month, lawyers representing 16 of them demanded a court hearing, the US court of appeals ruled that as Guantanamo Bay is not sovereign US territory, the men have no constitutional rights. Many of these prisoners appear to have been working in Afghanistan as teachers, engineers or aid workers. If the US government either tried or released them, its embarrassing lack of evidence would be brought to light.
You would hesitate to describe these prisoners as lucky, unless you knew what had happened to some of the other men captured by the Americans and their allies in Afghanistan. On November 21 2001, around 8,000 Taliban soldiers and Pashtun civilians surrendered at Konduz to the Northern Alliance commander, General Abdul Rashid Dostum. Many of them have never been seen again.
As Jamie Doran's film Afghan Massacre: Convoy of Death records, some hundreds, possibly thousands, of them were loaded into container lorries at Qala-i-Zeini, near the town of Mazar-i-Sharif, on November 26 and 27. The doors were sealed and the lorries were left to stand in the sun for several days. At length, they departed for Sheberghan prison, 80 miles away. The prisoners, many of whom were dying of thirst and asphyxiation, started banging on the sides of the trucks. Dostum's men stopped the convoy and machine-gunned the containers. When they arrived at Sheberghan, most of the captives were dead.
The US special forces running the prison watched the bodies being unloaded. They instructed Dostum's men to "get rid of them before satellite pictures can be taken". Doran interviewed a Northern Alliance soldier guarding the prison. "I was a witness when an American soldier broke one prisoner's neck. The Americans did whatever they wanted. We had no power to stop them." Another soldier alleged: "They took the prisoners outside and beat them up, and then returned them to the prison. But sometimes they were never returned, and they disappeared."
Many of the survivors were loaded back in the containers with the corpses, then driven to a place in the desert called Dasht-i-Leili. In the presence of up to 40 US special forces, the living and the dead were dumped into ditches. Anyone who moved was shot. The German newspaper Die Zeit investigated the claims and concluded that: "No one doubted that the Americans had taken part. Even at higher levels there are no doubts on this issue." The US group Physicians for Human Rights visited the places identified by Doran's witnesses and found they "all... contained human remains consistent with their designation as possible grave sites".
It should not be necessary to point out that hospitality of this kind also contravenes the third Geneva convention, which prohibits "violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture", as well as extra-judicial execution. Donald Rumsfeld's department, assisted by a pliant media, has done all it can to suppress Jamie Doran's film, while General Dostum has begun to assassinate his witnesses.
It is not hard, therefore, to see why the US government fought first to prevent the establishment of the international criminal court, and then to ensure that its own citizens are not subject to its jurisdiction. The five soldiers dragged in front of the cameras yesterday should thank their lucky stars that they are prisoners not of the American forces fighting for civilisation, but of the "barbaric and inhuman" Iraqis.

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Replies:
- Chris, I will answer one point to begin with for that article is a bit long. This article claims that war with Iraq is illegal. That is patently false! This war IS legal. The Gulf War did not end. There was a cease fire agreements signed by Saddam Hussein and his cronies which included disarmament of Weapons of Mass Destruction. Since that time Saddam has violated 17 UN Resolutions including resolution 1441. This is legal and right but you and many others in the world have your heads in the sand. (NT) -- William, 16:16:27 03/25/03 Tue
  - Only marginally longer than some of your replies! (NT) -- Chris Henry, 23:53:23 03/25/03 Tue
  - It would have been a legal war if the vote had been put in the UN. It wasn't because only 4 countries indicated their willingness to vote "Yes" (That's right, not just France, also Russia, China etc.). So the US and Britain didn't put it to a vote. If a second vote wasn't needed, why table it , and make all those attempts to drum up support? (NT) -- Chris Henry, 23:58:48 03/25/03 Tue
    - Chris, you are distorting the facts ... again! The UN Security Council vote was 15 - 0 passing resolution 1441 which Saddam then violated. The French promised to veto any other resolutions, sight unseen, which Blair and the UK and Bush and the US brought forth. The bottom line is, they, the UN, dropped the ball. The US, UK, AU, Polland, Spain, and others, and now the approximately 47 countries who support this war, got off their asses and took action, something the UN did not do for more than 12 years. How's the weather in Saudi Arabia? (NT) -- William, 21:48:22 03/26/03 Wed
- All 15 members of the UN Security Council signed on to 1441 which authorized action to be taken against Saddam Hussein if he did not cooperate and a time line was given. He did not cooperate. Again, making this action legal. Also, the US is taking steps to protect itself and its citizens as well as other countries from Saddam's regime and the dangers he does present. As a sovereign nation we do have that right and again, this does make this war legal. (NT) -- William, 16:23:46 03/25/03 Tue
- All 15 members of the UN Security Council signed on to 1441 which authorized action to be taken against Saddam Hussein if he did not cooperate and a time line was given. He did not cooperate. Again, making this action legal. Also, the US is taking steps to protect itself and its citizens as well as other countries from Saddam's regime and the dangers he does present. As a sovereign nation we do have that right and again, this does make this war legal. (NT) -- William, 16:38:09 03/25/03 Tue
  - I seem to remember this spurious sort of claim ("we must protect ourselves") being made when Russia invaded Afghanistan, India attacked Pakistan, China attacked India, Israel occupied the West Bank, Japan attacked Pearl Harbor. Nice bedfellows. (NT) -- Chris Henry, 00:04:02 03/26/03 Wed
    - I seem to remember this spurious sort of claim ("we must protect ourselves") being made when ....
      Total BS, Chris. You invent much of your posting. China did NOT attack India and claim that it was in order to protect themselves. Nor did Japan attack Pearl Harbor in order to protect themselves and they never claimed that they did. Israel won Gaza and the West Bank after being attacked by several Arab states in a war in 1967. The Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor in order to maintain superiority in the Pacific and their number one threat was the US fleet. (NT) -- William, 03:55:30 03/26/03 Wed
- Regarding the claims about the treatment of the "prisoners" from Afghanistan, these are now false as well. The prisoners are provided with comfortable living conditions, food, water, clothing, religious artifacts and religious chaplains, etc. Everything they would need to have a comfortable life. (NT) -- William, 17:14:22 03/25/03 Tue
  - Legal rights? Habeas Corpus? Communications to and from their family? Prisoners on "Death Row" have more "comforts" (NT) -- Chris Henry, 00:08:30 03/26/03 Wed
    - Most Taliban and al Qaeda prisoners are NOT US citizens, Chris. They are out to kill US citizens and other non-Muslim people, including Jews, Chris. The US is treating the prisoners in Guantanamo very well. They are doing far better than if they were living an a cave with little or no food, water, medicine, sunshine, etc. There is a difference. (NT) -- William, 03:49:34 03/26/03 Wed
      - Let's give them the choice, then. Imprisonment without family contact in Guantanamo, or return to their caves. Open up the gates and let's see what happens. (NT) -- Chris Henry, 06:18:39 03/27/03 Thu
- Along with that, something you might not know yet is the fact that those prisoners in Afghanistan actually begged to be sent to Guantanamo rather than to be imprisoned in the lesser quality holding areas they experienced in Afghanistan. Regarding the claim that these are the same as soldiers that is false. These are not affiliated with a country, do not wear uniforms or bear the insignia identifying themselves or their affiliation. They are illegal combatants and they are part of a group intent on killing internationally and who have already done so. It is right and just to hold them. (NT) -- William, 17:16:25 03/25/03 Tue
  - They were part of the detritus scooped up in the aftermath of the Afghan action, most if not all relatively harmless. If there were any big-time terrorists in there we'd have had a show trial by now. We were hurt bu 9/11 and making a big display of these unfortunates was, to some, like soothing the pain. For others its an embarrassment for a country which prides itself on legal process. Go and look at the foreign press and see their reaction to Rumsfeld's comments, see how many times they mention "Guantanamo"! (NT) -- Chris Henry, 00:18:56 03/26/03 Wed
- The article you posted, Chris, is full of distortions, half truths, and misinformation. In fact, it is definitely a slanted against the truth article to be sure. (NT) -- William, 17:18:25 03/25/03 Tue
  - I wouldn't expect you to say anything different. The truth hurts. (NT) -- Chris Henry, 00:10:47 03/26/03 Wed
    - "The truth hurts" Nice cliche, Chris. This article that you posted is rife with false information, false accusations, distortions, half truths, if any, etc. I have pointed out some of those defects to you. In other words, Chris, your message is not "the truth" and it does not hurt. (NT) -- William, 06:08:35 03/26/03 Wed
- Are you really trying to compare Taliban prisoners held in a sunny prison who get cereal, medical care, and special dietary considerations for religious purposes with the cold blooded execution of American POWs? (NT) -- Chez, 13:50:26 03/26/03 Wed
  - Chez --- as William pointed out to me, "Chris" is posting through a TLD "sa." Know what "sa" stands for? Hint: Saudi Arabia. Code broken. Propaganda exposed. Nevertheless, it is important to see these kind of reports and write rejoinders. You will probably find that "Chris" is a one-note Charlie, who only posts this sort of thing like our old Mumiacs did. Few who visit here will be convinced of anything by such tactics. Let the news media continue to expose themselves. (NT) -- SurveyGuy, 18:41:21 03/26/03 Wed
    - I'm sorry, have I broken some sort of rule here? Are expatriates U.S citizens banned from posting here, and only residents allowed? I have never concealed where I am writing from, and it would be easy enough to go through a dummy address. So what's your problem? (NT) -- Chris Henry, 06:10:03 03/27/03 Thu
      - Just pointing out our expectations. I have no problem whatsoever. By the way, most of the known "anonymizers" have been blocked here. It will be interesting to hear what you have heard. It also explains why you are unaware of some of the local broadcasts. I am glad you have chosen to revisit. Be aware that your views will often be challenged here. The only rules are at the top. No personal attacks (like calling people Nazis, etc.) on other posters. You may insult public figures (until they post here -- yeah, sure, right.) (NT) -- SurveyGuy (This is just a hobby. I lose no sleep over what anyone posts here.), 20:16:54 03/29/03 Sat
    - Or is this one of those groups where everyone is supposed to agree with one another? Isn't that a bit pointless? (NT) -- Chris Henry, 06:35:47 03/27/03 Thu
      - Quite the contrary my boy. Bring on your best stuff.. (NT) -- Chez, 22:37:19 03/28/03 Fri
  - P.S. Want to learn more about "Chris Henry"'s internet backbone, check this WHOIS link: http://www.zoneedit.com/whois.html?zone=212.138.47.29 (NT) -- SurveyGuy, 18:53:56 03/26/03 Wed
    - Would you like a photograph? An autobiography? My horoscope? Just ask. (NT) -- Chris Henry, 07:00:11 03/27/03 Thu
      - I have no problem with anything you've posted or the manner. That you are then only poster who uses an IP that handles much of the Saudi Arabia traffic is unique. (NT) -- SurveyGuy, 18:19:06 03/27/03 Thu
  - Of course not, both sides should observe the Geneva Convention, in full. So should the US in Guantanamo. (NT) -- Chris Henry, 06:23:06 03/27/03 Thu
Parody Song -- Flash Required -- SurveyGuy, 12:09:17 03/29/03 Sat (pcp01422563pcs.lndsd201.pa.comcast.net/68.81.153.209)
By now everyone must have Flash Player installed. So if you do, try this link:

http://www.bantv.com/vincevance/bomb_iraq.swf

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Replies:
- Ouch! Pheewwww! P U! That really Stinks! Expecially the part where Saddam gasses the Iraqi people. Maybe Saddam should be locked in an airtight room while lethal gas is released into the room. See how he likes it. (NT) -- William, 15:54:18 03/29/03 Sat
Visit the USO web page to see how you can get involved to support our troops! -- Spock, 15:42:59 03/28/03 Fri (user-vc8fm1s.biz.mindspring.com/216.135.216.60)

Click HERE

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More fuel for the fire? -- Spock, 15:20:54 03/27/03 Thu (user-vc8fm1s.biz.mindspring.com/216.135.216.60)

Here's an article I came across today that I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on. It's not definitive, but certainly controversial...

(Source Link: click HERE)

*********************
By Robert L. Holmes

The fall of Rome in 410 was a calamity of staggering proportions to the citizens of the Roman Empire. Civilization itself had been shaken to its foundations.

So it was viewed by Augustine, from his vantage point on the North African coast. But he worried not so much about the empire as about the threat of a backlash to Christianity.

Hadn't critics warned for years that Christians' pacifism would weaken the empire? Didn't this confirm the fears that Christianity was too other-worldly for its followers to be responsible citizens of the state?

Though church and state had worked together for nearly a century (since the conversion of Constantine), Augustine still felt that he needed to establish once and for all that Christians could in conscience assume the full obligations of citizenship, including participation in warfare.

The task was a challenge. Critics seemed to have on their side the teachings of Jesus himself. Though Jesus never talked about war directly, his message of love, humility, and compassion seemed incompatible with violence and killing. And so it was understood by most early Christians.

However, Augustine had already argued (in his attack on the Manichees) that, properly understood, Jesus' teachings did not in all cases call for literal obedience. Of Jesus' injunction, "If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also," Augustine said, "What is here required is not a bodily action, but an inward disposition. The sacred seat of virtue is the heart."

To illustrate this priority of inward motive, Augustine asked readers to consider a man hitting a boy and another man caressing a boy. The first case seems bad, but the man might be a father lovingly disciplining his son; the second case seems good, but the man might be a child molester. Thus, Augustine said, "We find a man by charity made fierce; and by iniquity made winningly gentle."

Because God judges the soul, the ultimate question is not "what the man does . . . but with what mind and will he does it." The appropriate motive in all cases, Augustine rules, is love. What is done from love of God must be good.

This opens the door for Christians to perform outward acts that might appear to be forbidden by Scripture. Still, there had to be a rationale for stepping through the door, and Augustine gave that rationale in City of God.

There Augustine insists there is no "private right" to kill. One can kill only under the authority of God, as communicated by direct or implicit command from God, or by a legitimate ruler who carries out God's intent to restrain evil on earth. Augustine further suggests that one who obeys such a command "does not himself 'kill.'" He acts only as an instrument of the one who commands.

Augustine concludes, "The commandment forbidding killing was not broken by those who have waged wars on the authority of God, or those who have imposed the death-penalty on criminals when representing the authority of the state, the justest and most reasonable source of power."

When there is no command by God, war may be waged only by those with legitimate authority, and only for a just cause. Augustine was not, however, specific on what causes can be considered just. He has been interpreted narrowly, as saying states may go to war to avert (defensively) or avenge (offensively) a violation of their rights, or broadly, as saying war may be waged to redress any wrong against God's moral order.

Thus Augustine fashioned what is now called the "just war theory," which over the centuries has become a complex set of criteria to govern both the recourse to war in the first place and the conduct of war once begun.

According to this justification, theologian Paul Ramsey contends in The Just War, Christian participation in warfare "was not actually an exception [to the commandment, "You shall not murder"] . . . but instead an expression of the Christian understanding of moral and political responsibility."

This understanding has, of course, been challenged from many angles. But with the exception of the "peace churches" (Quakers, Brethren, and Mennonites), mainstream Christianity has stayed to the present day essentially on the course set by Augustine.

Robert L. Holmes is professor of philosophy at the University of Rochester and author of On War and Morality (Princeton, 1989). This article originally appeared in Christian History issue 67: Augustine.

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Replies:
- Interesting. Gibbon in his "Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire", blamed this sort of soul-searching as one of the reasons for the demise of Rome. In pre-Christian times, emperors had no such scruples and would wage "Total War" - if a local chieftain didn't lay down his arms, a massacre would follow. It was much more effective militarily, although it didn't win over "hearts and minds". Having said that, the Christian approach, sincerely followed, can result in both military and moral victory. (NT) -- Chris Henry, 05:37:52 03/28/03 Fri
  - Well put. The ideological war currently afoot stems from the Postmodern legacy - there is no absolute truth, nor absolute right or wrong: all is relative and open to interpretation. We are also seeing the fallout of an increasingly insular western mindset - technology allows unprecedented anonymity and impunity. Thus we have "look out for number one" joining forces with "mind your own business." (cont'd) (NT) -- Spock, 13:57:52 03/28/03 Fri
  - Anti-war protestors don't see the point of going to war because their view is shortsighted and subjective. Unfortunately, long-term civilization can't survive like that. We are becoming once again tribal and primitive, the inevitable end of catering to the lowest common denominator for too long. (NT) -- Spock, 13:59:21 03/28/03 Fri
Gore -- Beverly, 16:41:17 03/27/03 Thu (host-209-214-119-58.bna.bellsouth.net/209.214.119.58)
Rush stated a couple of days ago that the Democrats were having a hard time deciding who they were going to get
to run next time. He said some were talking about maybe Gore, but Gore had said, "No".
Then suddenly Gore really jumped onto all the news reporters, saying he was really disgusted because they hadn't been talking to any Democrat and listening to their opionion about this war.
I do not want his opinion, or theirs.

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Replies:
- Gore was probably complaining thatthey weren't talking to him. Poor Al. Even Hillary is blocking his candidacy for 2004. What a two-faced nasty bunch those Democrats are. (NT) -- SurveyGuy, 18:36:22 03/27/03 Thu
Understanding why some Iraqis are reluctant ... what a terrible regime ... -- SurveyGuy, 18:02:13 03/24/03 Mon (pcp01422551pcs.lndsd201.pa.comcast.net/68.81.153.197)
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/03/24/1048354501716.html
'Allies will inject you with poison', Iraqis told
March 24 2003, 6:25 AM-- Sydney Morning Herald

Iraqi soldiers have been told they will be injected with poison if captured by British or American troops, it emerged today.

US forces have tried to counter Iraqi propaganda by carrying out mass leaflet drops, saying anyone who surrenders will be treated well.

But a British medic who has been acting as an interpreter for injured prisoners of war said the men were still "completely terrified" and believed they would be executed.

They could have been kept in sanitised barracks and never shown the US leaflets, he said.

Captain Wassim Slim, who was born in Saudi Arabia but educated in Britain and speaks fluent Arabic, said: "They are completely terrified, they have been fed a lot of stuff about what will happen to them if they are captured.

"A lot of them have been very scared of having needles or canulas put into them because they have been told they will be injected with poisons and terrible things.

"They're hungry, weak and pretty terrified.

"They have been indoctrinated so they're in a Catch 22. They don't want to fight against this overwhelming force but at the same time they think that if they throw themselves on our mercy they will be injected.

"It's a very tough decision."

Captain Slim, 28, an army dentist, said he had not yet done any dentistry but had spent all day translating for some five or six Iraqi prisoners of war taken to the mobile hospital, known as a dressing station, where he works.

They were mostly conscript privates in their early 20s but there was also a more senior man, believed to be aged 50. All had come from the 51st Mechanised Division.

All of them had gunshot wounds and said they were caught in firefights and were treated at the dressing station before being evacuated back to a field hospital in Kuwait.

Capt Slim said they were surprised to find someone who spoke Arabic but immediately became calmer as he explained the situation.

"I explain to them that we are not going to hurt them, that we only want to treat their medical wounds," he said.

"The older man, who I think was a staff sergeant and more experienced, said: 'We have been waiting for you for a long time, we have been expecting you.'

"He said it in a positive way, as if to say: 'What kept you?'

"When they left, I explained what would happen to them next, that some of them needed operations and might need general anaesthetic, and that there might not be someone who spoke Arabic.

"By the time they went, they were thanking us. Obviously a great weight had been lifted from their minds, some myths had been dispelled.

"They shook our hands if they could and you could see they were a lot more relaxed."

The Iraqis were thought to have been injured in a gunfight with US troops and one of the men died before British medical teams could reach him.

But Capt Slim and other Army medics all said they would give exactly the same medical treatment to prisoners of war as they would to British or US troops.

"We are non-combatants; we are doctors, dentists and nurses; we are just here to help people," Capt Slim said.

"Everyone gets treated the same. They're treated on their medical needs, nothing else."

Capt Slim was born in Saudi Arabia but was sent to an English boarding school in Eastbourne, East Sussex, before going to Epsom College and studying dentistry at Guy's Hospital in London. He now lives in Germany with the army.

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Replies:
- "They could have been kept in sanitised barracks and never shown the US leaflets, he said." With full air-conditioning and ensuite bathrooms, no doubt. Another case of believing our own propaganda, assuming that Iraqi soldiers will believe what we tell them in a leaflet. Why should they? They see us as the enemy, a view reinforced by the fact that we shoot at them. Would we expect our soldiers to believe an Iraqi leaflet? Some of our propagandists and media people need to get back on to Planet Earth. (NT) -- Chris Henry, 00:40:11 03/25/03 Tue
  - Chris, I would believe the US before I would believe Saddam Hussein and his thugs. It is obvious already that the US has been treating Iraqi prisoners humanely and even let many Iraqis go on their way back home, etc., rather than imprison them. (NT) -- William, 17:21:18 03/25/03 Tue
    - Of course you would, so would I. Soldiers will always believe their own side rather than the enemy leaflets. But it obviously applies to the Iraqis as much as to us, we shouldn't fool ourselves otherwise. (NT) -- Chris Henry, 23:51:58 03/25/03 Tue
      - Sorry, Chris, but it does not apply to the Iraqis the same way it applies to us. Many of the Iraqi military do not wish to fight and do not trust Saddam. They do know what he is. The US is more honorable and can be trusted a lot father than Saddam can. (NT) -- William, 06:11:08 03/26/03 Wed
        
        Absolute truths are irrelevant here. What is important is what the Iraqi troops themselves think, and what they think is that the US military is their enemy and will always lie to them. As any intelligence officer will tell you, you need to get into the mind of the enemy; thay don't think like us, and certainly not the way we would like them to think. (NT) -- Chris Henry, 05:53:52 03/27/03 Thu
"homophobic" reverend? -- jc, 17:24:49 05/12/03 Mon (clgrtnt6-port-124.dial.telus.net/161.184.50.124)
to the dude so worried about the homophobic reverend: by definition, all the judeo-christian, abrahamic and other dominant world religions, are 'homophobic' in that they all censure the practise. So get over it. And as for "stopping" this reverend, who is really more like Hitler, Stalin and Mao now -- those guys were the masters of censorship. Concernig the youths who began clapping upon reference to the fact that Trudeau (rightly) liberalized laws governing homosexual behaviour, is it not equally possible that they had been brainwashed to support that position, by the public schools -- otherwise why would they care one way or the other? Just as the reverend should get over your sexual lifestyle, you should get over other people's religious and moral lifestyles. You are no better than those you deride. Get over yourself -- what you do in bed ain't that important.

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Iraqis "welcome" US troops - from a Reuters report 23.03.03 (or is Reuters biased, now?) Maybe they don't like Saddam Hussein, but it's still their country, and they see us as invaders, not liberators. -- Chris Henry, 03:36:27 03/24/03 Mon (cache7-1.ruh.isu.net.sa/212.138.47.17)
BLACK SMOKE, WHITE FLAGS

In the southeastern city of Umm Qasr, Iraq's only deep-water port, U.S. and British forces used planes and tanks in a battle to dislodge at least 120 Iraqi Republican Guards.

Reuters correspondent Adrian Croft said British Harrier jets had dropped 500-pound bombs on the city, sending columns of black smoke curling into the air. When the bombing ended, some Iraqis could be seen waving white flags and surrendering.

As night fell U.S. soldiers were still using machinegun, artillery and mortar fire in an attempt to flush out another group of Iraqi fighters from a hideout.

Civilians streamed out of Umm Qasr and the city of Basra. Reuters correspondent Rosalind Russell, south of Basra, watched dozens of trucks and battered cars pass, crammed full with household belongings.

Machinegun and artillery fire echoed behind them.

"There is fighting in the center, on the streets. It is terrible," said Hussein, a 24-year-old engineer who works for the state-run southern oil company in Basra.

"We don't want Americans here. This is Iraq."

One group of Iraqi boys on the side of the road smiled and waved as a convoy of British tanks and trucks rolled by.

But once it had passed, leaving a trail of dust and grit in its wake, their smiles turned to scowls.

"We don't want them here," said 17-year-old Fouad, looking angrily up at the plumes of gray smoke rising from Basra.

He pulled a piece of paper from the waistband of his trousers. Unfolding it, he held up a picture of Saddam, showing the Iraqi leader sitting on a throne with a benign smile.

"Saddam is our leader," he said defiantly. "Saddam is good."

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Replies:
- Only those not paying attention would think that all people in Iraq think alike. Those who are part of the regime or have some family member who is would think one way. Those who have been terrorized will think another. Heck, there is hardly a uniformity of thought in this country. I don't draw any conclusons from reports from propaganists. I will believe more when reported by 500 professional journalists that are actually there. The first casualty of war is the truth. (NT) -- SurveyGuy, 17:51:35 03/24/03 Mon
  - "The first casualty of war is the truth" - true indeed. If all the bullsh*t from both sides were spread all over Iraq it would turn that country into a garden paradise. But I am countering the myth that the Iraqis are going to come out into the streets welcoming us like the liberation of Rome. I am still waiting for a URL to a picture that shows this. If it doesn't happen, it won't be the French who look stupid, it'll be us. (NT) -- Chris Henry, 00:14:52 03/25/03 Tue
    - Chris, are you in denial or what? There have been video and still photographs which clearly show the Iraqis shaking hands with the coaltion troops, smiling, tearing down larger than life photographs of Saddam Hussein, etc. At this very moment there are reports that Iraqi forces in Basra have been killing Iraqi citizens and that the citizens have actually turned on the Iraqi military and are uprising against the Iraqi forces in Basra. The Brits are there with tanks and other firepower and are engaging the Iraqis as well. We shall see if Basra falls. (NT) -- William, 17:26:21 03/25/03 Tue
      - OK, send me a URL, because I haven't seen one of those pictures (NT) -- Chris Henry, 23:45:52 03/25/03 Tue
        
        Chris, just watch television, read the newspaper, or read the internet outlets for news. Of course, if you are watching al Jazeera and possibly BBC, you might not see these images for they might be censored whereas most of the outlets I have seen show both the dancing, celebrating, smiling Iraqis happy to see the coalition forces as well as the dancing, smiling Iraqis celebrating around a downed coalition aircraft. (NT) -- William, 04:13:02 03/26/03 Wed
        
        I watch CNN, BBC, FoxNews, Bloomberg. I don't watch Al Jazeera because I can't follow the Arabic.I have access to every site that exists on the Internet. I haven't seen a single example. If you send me the URL of one, I'll be the first to admit I'm wrong. (NT) -- Chris Henry, 05:48:55 03/27/03 Thu
    - Nevertheless you seem to be in deep denial as if you don't want this to work and as if you want Saddam to win. To paraphrase Michael "Mr. Fiction" Moore, Shame on you, Chris! Shame on you! (NT) -- William, 17:27:27 03/25/03 Tue
      - There is not one single Middle East country surrounding Iraq where the population (and in many cases the government) does not regard the US as invaders and userpers. Why, then, would we expect the Iraqi people to welcome us with open arms? Yes, they are ruled by a despot, but he's their despot and the alternative of Gen Tommy Franks in an Arab, Islamic, country is about as welcome as the proverbial "Hooker at a wedding". That's where the denial comes in. And I'll be ashamed when I'm so naive as to think otherwise. (NT) -- Chris Henry, 00:28:43 03/26/03 Wed
        
        Chris, there is not one single Middle East country in which the citizens and the leaders don't support and like and appreciate the US. Sure they have their radical, hate America crowds but they also have those who don't hate America but who love it. Iran is one wherein millions of Iranians have been demonstrating against the rulers, the Ayatollahs, for some time now. (NT) -- William, 06:19:32 03/26/03 Wed
        
        They often demonstrate against their rulers, but that doesn't mean they like the US. What opinion polls there are show support for the US at less than 10%. The reason is, of course, their perception that the US aids and abets a country that they detest and would wipe out if they ever got the chance - Israel. (NT) -- Chris Henry, 05:39:15 03/27/03 Thu
        
        Middle Eastern citizens come here and to other western countries in droves to get an education, live, work, and find it wonderful and their families and friends come as well. Sure there is resentment but it is not all the US fault. I have read the "Friday Sermons" from the Palestinian Areas, Saudi Arabia, etc., calling for the murder of Westerners, Americans, Israelis, Jews, etc. This stuff is broadcast via Radio, television, print media, and in the mosques, etc. It is pure, unadulterated brainwashing and hate speech. By the way, how did you join this forum posting through Saudi Arabia? (NT) -- William, 06:23:18 03/26/03 Wed
        
        Whether it is the US's fault or not is irrelevant. The fact is that there is extremely strong anti-US feeling. You've just quoted above some examples of that. The fact exists, whether it's justified or not, whether we like it or not. (NT) -- Chris Henry, 05:43:12 03/27/03 Thu
  - The second myth is of course the "Shock and Awe" myth, that the regime will implode when we blow up government buildings and terrorise the population. It didn't work in Britain in 1941, in Germany in 1943, etc. etc. One of the biggest dangers in any war is believing one's own propaganda. (NT) -- Chris Henry, 00:22:00 03/25/03 Tue
    - Propaganda, Chris? The targets of this military action are the leadership of Iraq, Saddam, his sons, his generals, etc. There are ongoing talks with the leadership, the generals, etc., to end this conflict and some generals have already been captured. The Shock and Awe is the power and the precision, pinpointing the military and strategic targets while not destroying the whole Iraq. It is working and the leadership is having difficulty as their command communication system is breaking down. (NT) -- William, 17:32:04 03/25/03 Tue
      - I haven't seen any generals captured, indeed nobody at or above divisional command. If I'm wrong, send me a URL. (NT) -- Chris Henry, 23:48:09 03/25/03 Tue
        
        Again, Chris, do your own homework! (NT) -- William, 06:12:40 03/26/03 Wed
        
        It's your assertion, you need to show something to support it. If you want me to do your homework, then I may as well write your arguments as well. (NT) -- Chris Henry, 05:34:22 03/27/03 Thu
Try this, just for fun. I has some recent historical events over your life. -- SurveyGuy, 18:32:40 03/26/03 Wed (NoHost/68.81.153.53)
When you go to this website, first fill in the prompt that asks for your date of birth. It is used to help construct the rest of the page. Cool.

http://www.frontiernet.net/~cdm/age1.html

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Heard this one yet? -- Spock (lightening up for a bit), 15:49:13 03/26/03 Wed (user-vc8fm1s.biz.mindspring.com/216.135.216.60)

What does it tell you about our world when a white man is the best rapper, a black man is the best golfer, France is accusing *us* of being arrogant, and Germany *doesn't* want to go to war??!!

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Perhaps the French still have not gotten the message -- they are irrelevant -- and no longer trusted either. I sure wish they would be told off ... enough of the diplomatic crap. -- SurveyGuy, 18:16:13 03/22/03 Sat (NoHost/68.81.153.197)
http://newsmax.com/showinsidecover.shtml?a=2003/3/21/101038
Friday, March 21, 2003
Note to Appeasement Activists: Iraqis Cheer U.S. Troops

Even as San Francisco leftists throw temper tantrums, vicious Germans desecrate U.S. flags and fussbudget Frenchmen fret, citizens in southern Iraq are thrilled today to be liberated by U.S. Marines.

As American forces took the border town of Safwan, residents waved. "A woman threw herself at the Marines' feet until a man hurriedly came and led her away," Fox News reported today.

"Americans very good," Ali Khemy said. "Iraq wants to be free."

Another resident told reporters why he welcomed the arrival of U.S. troops. "We're very happy. Saddam Hussein is no good. Saddam Hussein a butcher."

Some townspeople chanted, "Ameriki! Ameriki!"

"Many others in the starving town just patted their stomachs and raised their hands, begging for food," the Associated Press reported.

Frenchie Admits, 'We Look Really Stupid'

Let's recall this quotation from Dominique Dord, a deputy from French President Jacques Chirac's own party: "We would look really stupid if Iraqis applaud the arrival of Americans." Well said.

Perhaps if the blame-America-first extremists, foreign and domestic, got to experience life under a genocidal dictator for a few years they would finally stop hating the U.S.

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Replies:
- SurveyGuy, have you noticed the crazy formatting to Surf's and my posts below? Voy was doing some updates, etc., and, although these posts looked find at first, the new changes affected those post which seem to have been posted during Voy's tinkering.
  Although it might sound like a joke the following is NOT a joke and is for serious consideration. The French are irrelevant and Chirac is attempting to ensure the he and the French have some importance on the world's stage. (click to read more) -- William, 04:18:44 03/23/03 Sun
  - Yes, I saw the /r/n sequences. They seem to have stopped. Don't know the problem, but they resemble Perl tags in certain CGI commands. Probaly just a programming glitch they have corrected. (NT) -- SurveyGuy, 16:43:25 03/23/03 Sun
    - SurveyGuy, it appears these glitches reared their ugly heads again in your post. (grin) (NT) -- William, 19:59:02 03/23/03 Sun
- Ask the little boy at the bottom of this page whether he's cheering the US troops http://www.aljazeera.net/news/arabic/2003/3/3-23-11.htm - probably not, they blew his head away (NT) -- Chris Henry, 07:14:22 03/23/03 Sun
  - ...as broadcast from Qatar, home of Gen Franks HQ, not from Baghdad. Who's going to be first to suggest that it's done with Photoshop? (NT) -- Chris Henry, 07:22:32 03/23/03 Sun
Note to Appeasement activists - Iraqi farmers cheer US helicopters - http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=2435575 - They welcomed them so much, they shot them down with their WWI vintage rifles -- Chris Henry, 07:35:12 03/24/03 Mon (cache10-2.ruh.isu.net.sa/212.138.47.29)

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Voices from Iraq - the plight of Iraqis at the hands of Saddam Hussein and his regime -- William, 04:52:57 03/23/03 Sun (cache-rf05.proxy.aol.com/152.163.188.165)

Here is a mere glimpse what some of the Iraqi people really wish and hope for.

UPI report "Lucky Break for Jordan", March 21, 2003

--- snipped ---

A group of American anti-war demonstrators who came to Iraq with Japanese human shield volunteers made it across the border today with 14 hours of uncensored video, all shot without Iraqi government minders present. Kenneth Joseph, a young American pastor with the Assyrian Church of the East, told UPI the trip "had shocked me back to reality."

Some of the Iraqis he interviewed on camera "told me they would commit suicide if American bombing didn't start. They were willing to see their homes demolished to gain their freedom from Saddam's bloody tyranny. They convinced me that Saddam was a monster the likes of which the world had not seen since Stalin and Hitler. He and his sons are sick sadists. Their tales of slow torture and killing made me ill, such as people put in a huge shredder for plastic products, feet first so they could hear their screams as bodies got chewed up from foot to head."

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Just in for a quickie... -- Spock (miss y'all!), 12:27:56 01/28/03 Tue (user-vc8fm1s.biz.mindspring.com/216.135.216.60)
Arkansas Medicine

An Israeli doctor says "Medicine in my country is so advanced that we can take a kidney out of one man, put it in another, and have him looking for work in six weeks."

A German doctor says "That is nothing, we can take a lung out of one person, put it in another, and have him looking for work in four weeks."

A Russian doctor says "In my country, medicine is so advanced that we can take half a heart out of one person, put it in another, and have them both looking for work in two weeks."

The Arkansas doctor, not to be outdone, says, "You guys are way behind. We recently took a man with no brain out of Arkansas, put him in the White House for eight years, and now half the country is looking for work."

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Replies:
- Thanks for the quickie, Spock! Was it as good for you as it was for me too? Did you catch up on the lates about the country you are living in and the moron you have for a president? Your country, the USA, is the worst terrorist ogranization in the history of the world, has killed more people than any one ever did, and your president is a war monger, a facist dictator and worse than Hitler. Of course Israel is second worst terrorist organization in history with Sharon of Israel is a war criminal who commited genocide. (NT) -- William, 16:12:53 01/28/03 Tue
- Now you want to invade Iraq and steal their oil, just like your president stole the election! Come to the next anti-US, er, I mean, come to the next anti-war demonstration sponsored by A.N.S.W.E.R. (communist, terrorist supporting group) and you might wish to carry a sign like "bomb Texas, not Iraq", or "Drop Bush, not bombs". Isn't the world populated with nothing but geniuses?
  Anyway, enough with the sarcasm, or is it irony? Anybody? Spock? SurveyGuy? Irony or sarcasm or both? (NT) -- William, 16:18:26 01/28/03 Tue
  - It was both, but they are difficulty to convey in this medium. Those who haven't been here, might have thought you were serious. (NT) -- SurveyGuy, 07:59:58 01/29/03 Wed
    - "Many a true word is spoken in jest" (NT) -- Ahmed, 03:29:14 03/03/03 Mon
  - William, stop scaring me like that (NT) -- Surf, 13:48:27 02/09/03 Sun
- Spock, I for one am really happy to see your post! It has been a long time. But for a few visits from H Bergeron, and KRM?, who stop by once in a while, SurveyGuy and I are about the only ones who have posted here for a while. I like reading SurveyGuy's stuff and H Bergeron's stuff and others, like KRM?, etc, but I miss the "old gang", so to speak, including you, JL, and others. (NT) -- William, 16:22:15 01/28/03 Tue
  - Thanks -- just been really, really busy for a couple of months now. I've lurked and skimmed at times, tho', as able... (NT) -- Spock, 13:06:58 01/29/03 Wed
    - Hi Spock, I am in the same boat. I have not been posting because I am really busy (I have started my MBA..) but I still check in.. Hi to William , Suvey Guy (NT) -- Chez (looking out for commie profs and campus peacniks.. ), 20:49:19 01/29/03 Wed
      - Hi Chez! Good to hear from you! Did you hear about the anti-war group which has been giving money from donations to Mumia? (NT) -- William, 15:28:53 01/30/03 Thu
        
        William I just heard Dom G. talking about it.. Check out his webpage there a great picture of Saddam Hussein.. Spread it around the internet.. (NT) -- Chez, 22:03:38 01/30/03 Thu
        "Kill the Kurds, not Mumia" catchy slogan... (NT) -- H_Bergeron, 22:02:38 02/03/03 Mon
        Hi William, Chez, and all! Yea, they were one of the 'sponsors' of that ludicrous 'peace rally' a few weeks back. Friends of Mumia ... Enemies of Civilization. Hope you all have been well. (NT) -- JL, 17:10:30 02/08/03 Sat
- Laser-Guided Bombs -- The price of freedom, 12:19:32 03/21/03 Fri
  - "We Cannot Spread Democracy With Laser-Guided Bombs"
    nor can we inspire dialogue with hit-and-run posting.... (NT) -- H_Bergeron, 01:08:31 03/22/03 Sat
  - But we can spread tyrants .... all over the desert. The key is to make tyranical oppressors be afraid of attacking us. Spreading Democracy? Heck -- we don't even have a democracy in the U.S. It is a Republic -- duh! The purpose is to finally stop taqlking and stop those who attack us. Afghanistan, Iraq, .... is the message becoming clear enough? Attacking U.S. interests now comes with a price ... not hot air. Maybe you'd like the UN to move to Denmark from where your post originates. You are welcome to have them. (NT) -- SurveyGuy, 11:28:30 03/22/03 Sat
. -- Surf, 18:27:09 03/21/03 Fri (pool-68-162-77-214.phil.east.verizon.net/68.162.77.214)
FRANCE SURRENDERS\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nnot so out of the realm of possibility is it?

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A view of Iraq, war, the UN, resolutions, etc., from Kuwait -- William, 15:41:24 03/21/03 Fri (cache-dq01.proxy.aol.com/205.188.209.133)
\r\n\r\nNotice the reference to France and others in one comment in the interview below\r\n\r\n
\r\nSaddam's regime has always threatened us: Kuwaiti Ambassador Pramit Pal Chaudhuri\r\nMarch 20 Hindustantimes\r\n\r\nHow is Kuwait reacting to the start of the war?\r\n\r\nWe've always said we are against the war. We are not going to fight. But we will certainly defend our country. Since 1991, the international community has been trying to disarm Iraq. Saddam Hussein's regime has made no attempt to build real trust between itself and its neighbours, especially Kuwait. We do not trust Hussein's regime. We have always been under threat from it. No one, no country can stop this war. We only hope that it will be short. We are only against this regime. We are sure the region will be safer, more secure if Hussein's regime is removed.\r\n\r\nIs Kuwait concerned about the lack of a second UN resolution?\r\n\r\nWe would have preferred a second resolution. Kuwait was, after all, liberated through United Nations resolutions. But that the war has started without a second resolution is not our mistake or our concern. Kuwait is not a Security Council member. That is the concern of certain permanent members who threatened to use their vetoes.\r\n\r\nWhat do you feel Saddam Hussein should do?\r\n\r\nIt is probably too late for him to do much. But even now he can leave the country or resign. I don't think he will do either.\r\n\r\nDo you think that the US-led invasion will lead to an upsurge in Arab terrorism?\r\n\r\nI hope not. I don't think so. The US army will be liberating the people of Iraq. I am certain that the people of Iraq will be happy. In 1991, the US army was only 90 km from Baghdad. But not one Iraqi took up arms against US troops. Instead, the Iraqis took up arms against their ruler.\r\n\r\nWhat do you think of India's position on the war?\r\n\r\nIndia and Kuwait have more or less the same position on the war. We were both for UN Security Council resolutions to disarm Iraq. We both want to finish this through peaceful means and feel that more attention should be given to the Security Council. In the end, both countries are praying that this war will be finished with few casualties. Our friends in India will understand our position: how Kuwait has had to live in fear of Saddam Hussein all these years. In the near future, we expect to open an embassy in Iraq and turn things around.

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Another view of France's collusion with Iraq -- William, 14:19:04 03/21/03 Fri (cache-dq01.proxy.aol.com/205.188.209.133)
Britain reveals France's �135m exports to Iraq\r\n\r\nNicholas Watt, political correspondent\r\nFriday March 21, 2003\r\nThe Guardian\r\n\r\nBritain intensified its propaganda campaign against France yesterday by releasing figures showing that Paris has exported goods worth hundreds of millions of dollars to Iraq.\r\n\r\nThe government published a detailed breakdown of trade figures which allegedly show that France is "stretching" the rules of UN sanctions.\r\n\r\nPatricia Hewitt, the trade and industry secretary, claimed that in the first six months of last year France exported goods worth $212.5m (�135m) to Iraq. Germany exported goods worth $203.8m. In the same period Britain exported goods worth $27.8m.\r\n\r\nThe figures were released in a parliamentary written answer hours before Tony Blair was due to meet Jacques Chirac at an EU summit in Brussels. No formal commentary was attached, but the clear intention was to to undermine French claims that it is opposing the war on moral grounds.\r\n\r\nGovernment sources said the figures showed that France was stretching UN security council resolution 661, which tightly restricts exports to Iraq. Under the oil-for-food programme foreign companies are allowed to export machinery solely to maintain existing refineries.\r\n\r\nOne source said: "We interpret resolution 661 very strongly. We interpret that to mean that it is illegal to do other than maintain what is there [in terms of exports for the oil industry]. Clearly the French and the Germans have done more than that."\r\n\r\nJack Straw, the foreign secretary, insisted yesterday that relations with his French counterpart, Dominique de Villepin, were "very good".

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Ann Coulter Rocks!!! (again) -- Spock, 16:16:16 03/20/03 Thu (user-vc8fm1s.biz.mindspring.com/216.135.216.60)
John Burns of the NY Times reported last night and today how Iraqi citizens are, for the most part, enthusiastically greeting the American coalition and supporting their cause, seeing it as the solution to the oppression that Saddam Hussein has dished out on them for over 30 years. \r\n\r\nNow we hear that more and more countries -- more even now than supported us for the Gulf War in 1991 -- are joining us. Why are "American" liberals & Democrats so slow to see what's going on?\r\n\r\nKissing cousins: New York literati and Nazis\r\nby Ann Coulter\r\n\r\nFrom WorldNetDaily.com\r\nPosted: March 19, 2003\r\n1:00 a.m. Eastern\r\n\r\n� 2003 Universal Press Syndicate \r\n\r\nIt became clear the nation was finally going to war with Iraq this week when the New York Times pulled two dozen reporters off the Augusta National Golf Club story. In a speech to the nation on Monday night, President Bush gave Saddam Hussein 48 hours to get out of Baghdad, warning that the American military was poised to remove him forcibly. \r\n\r\nMany still held out hope that Saddam would abandon power without a fight, primarily so we could listen to liberals explain how a peaceful resolution was brought about by their urgent demands that we work through the United Nations, and had nothing to do with the fact that Saddam was surrounded by 200,000 American troops. \r\n\r\nIn response to Bush's ultimatum, Saddam's son, Uday Hussein, said Bush was stupid. He said Bush wanted to attack Iraq because of his family. And he said American boys would die. At least someone is finding the New York Times editorial page helpful these days. \r\n\r\nIn angry harangues largely indistinguishable from the one by Uday Hussein, the Democrats were also hopping mad at Bush. Sen. Joe Lieberman, D-Conn., spent 40 minutes detailing Saddam Hussein's manifest cruelties and violations of all human norms. Without breaking a sweat, Lieberman then said he could understand why the French were not bothered by these indisputable barbarisms: It was Bush's failure of "diplomacy." Bush, the clod, had failed to convince the inconvincible. \r\n\r\nSen. Tom Daschle, D-S.D., said: "I'm saddened, saddened that this president failed so miserably at diplomacy that we're now forced to war. Saddened that we have to give up one life because this president couldn't create the kind of diplomatic effort that was so critical for our country." Mostly, the Democrats were saddened that America was about to win a war. \r\n\r\nWith the nation on the verge of a glorious military triumph, liberals have had to put their predictions of a Vietnam "quagmire" on the back burner for a few weeks. Instead, they have turned with a vengeance to attacking "American arrogance." The day after President Bush's speech, Washington Post columnist David Ignatius spoke of self-defeating "American arrogance." The Post quoted "a senior U.S. official" (in newspaper jargon: "a janitor at the Pentagon") who warned of "a degree of hubris unprecedented in American history." \r\n\r\nThe New York Times' lead editorial on Tuesday also bemoaned American "hubris." One front-page article called Bush trigger-happy and another bitterly accused him of breaking a campaign pledge to preside over a "humble" America. In the 19 months since the 9-11 attack, the Times has used the phrase "American arrogance" nearly as many times (17) as in the entire 96 months of the Clinton presidency (24). Instead of American arrogance, the Times yearns for Clintonian flatulence. \r\n\r\nThere was no more eloquent testimony to what liberals mean by "American arrogance" than an article in the March 10 New Yorker, which nonchalantly quoted a Nazi in support of the proposition that Americans are jingoistic, imperialist rednecks. Amid page after gleeful page of European venom toward Americans, Columbia University professor Simon Schama quoted the anti-American bile of Norwegian writer and renowned Nazi-sympathizer Knut Hamsun. \r\n\r\nSchama admiringly cited Hamsun's contempt for American boosterism, neglecting to mention that Hamsun went for Hitler boosterism in a big way. Beginning in the early '30s and until his death in 1952, Hamsun was absolutely smitten with Adolf Hitler. He exchanged gifts and telegrams with Goebbels and Hitler. Indeed, so enamored of Joseph Goebbels was he, that Hamsun gave Goebbels his own Nobel Prize medal. \r\n\r\nWhen the Nazis invaded Norway, Hamsun wrote a newspaper column saying: "NORWEGIANS! Throw down your rifles and go home again. The Germans are fighting for us all." Tearful upon news of the Fuhrer's death, Hamsun was quoted in an obituary on Hitler saying: "I am not worthy to speak his name." He never equivocated and he never apologized. \r\n\r\nWhile he issued tributes to Hitler, Hamsun wrote the ironically titled book "The Cultural Life of Modern America," which, as professor Schama sniggeringly writes, was "largely devoted to asserting its nonexistence." Hamsun called America "a strapping child-monster whose runaway physical growth would never be matched by moral or cultural maturity." It must have been a relief for Hamsun to find such genuine "cultural maturity" in Nazi Germany. \r\n\r\nHamsun hated America for all the reasons liberals hate America. To the delight of New York sophisticates, Hamsun once sneered at pathetic Americans marching in veterans' parades, "with tiny flags in their hats and brass medals on their chests marching in step to the hundreds of penny whistles they are blowing." America's little patriotic parades apparently compared unfavorably to a stirring Nazi war rally. \r\n\r\nThis is the essence of liberal admiration for Europeans and their pompous cultural snobbery. For proof that Americans are immature hicks in an ugly jingoistic mood, they cite a Nazi.

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- Great column! Oddly, I heard that Tom Daschle vote for the bill to ban partial birth abortion and Lieberman (the great humanitarian) voted against it. Then Daschle turns around and becomes obnoxious again. When this "war" is over in a week, won;t the DEmocrats look as stupid as they did before the Afghanistan conflict? Will their voters remember? Are their voters even paying attention? (NT) -- SurveyGuy, 06:21:14 03/21/03 Fri
More information revealing Iraq and Saddam Hussein's deceit and black heart (if he even has one). -- William, 00:45:27 03/18/03 Tue (cache-mtc-ah04.proxy.aol.com/64.12.96.169)
Iraqi Chemical Weapons Official Shot Trying to Escape\r\nBy Times Online\r\nMarch 17, 2003\r\n\r\nA SENIOR Baghdad official who feared for his life after helping to hide Saddam Hussein's chemical weapons was executed after he tried to flee the country, Iraqi sources revealed last week.\r\n\r\nKhalis Muhsin al-Tikriti, 35, had been working in the scientific department of the president's office under the authority of the Special Security Organisation (SSO), headed by Qusay Hussein, Saddam's younger son and political heir.\r\n\r\nAl-Tikriti, an engineer, had supervised an operation to bury a significant quantity of Saddam's chemical weapons before United Nations weapons inspectors arrived last November. Some weapons were buried near the river Tigris in the Baji area north of Baghdad during the operation, which was carried out by a specially formed group in the SSO.\r\n\r\nThe Iraqi sources said that, in a chilling attempt to ensure that the location of the weapons of mass destruction (WMD) remained secret, the SSO members who concealed them were executed. Al-Tikriti then tried to escape. "I think that he knew he would be executed after the killing of the people who participated in the burial of the WMD," said Abu Hajjaj, an Iraqi exile.\r\n\r\nAbu Hajjaj served for 20 years in the Mukhabarat, the Iraqi security service, and helped Saddam set up a European network before escaping when he came under suspicion. His information comes from former colleagues still serving under Saddam.\r\n\r\nWhile it is almost impossible to confirm the information independently, a second Iraqi source known to The Sunday Times for 15 years verified that Abu Hajjaj's information had proved correct in other cases.\r\n\r\nBefore Republican Guards moved into Baghdad to defend the city, Abu Hajjaj correctly reported the plans; he also warned that trenches would be filled with oil and set ablaze. Pools of oil have now been observed from satellites.\r\n\r\nIt is nearly two months since he first told The Sunday Times of the execution but only now, through sources in Baghdad, has he been able to obtain the victim's name. A Western intelligence source said his story "sounds credible", but could not confirm the name.\r\n\r\nFurther evidence of merciless oppression has emerged in another incident. Several weeks ago, the Iraqi president decreed that anyone discussing reports that he might step down to avert a war would face execution. According to a western intelligence source who has verified the information, an Iraqi civilian named Mohammed Hadid, was later overheard talking of Saddam's possible exile.\r\n\r\nHe was arrested by members of Saddam's Fedayeen, a militia headed by the president's eldest son Uday, and brought to Baghdad. There, he was tied to a post, his tongue was cut out and he was left to bleed to death.\r\n\r\nAl-Tikriti, the engineer, suffered a swifter but no less brutal death. He was allegedly shot in the head just after the UN inspectors' arrival.

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- William, I'm surprised at you! I'm sure he has the heart of a young boy....in a jar....on his desk..... (NT) -- Spock, 13:11:54 03/18/03 Tue
  - Spock, maybe if the catch Saddam they can do an autopsy on him and see if he does have a heart and if so, maybe they can see what his heart is made of. (NT) -- William, 05:17:33 03/20/03 Thu
The Democrats' (temporary) warmongering (article) -- William, 02:38:03 03/14/03 Fri (cache-dq01.proxy.aol.com/205.188.209.133)
Rich Lowry
03/14/03 Townhall.com

The Democrats' (temporary) warmongering

In keeping with the new vogue for pre-emption, Democrats would be well-advised to try an unprecedented, pre-emptive flip-flop on North Korea.

Every Democrat in the country is saying things about the Korean crisis that they will regret and have to abandon, perhaps in a matter of weeks. Better to make the shift now to try to hide some of the opportunism later.

During the Iraq debate, doves have sought any shabby argument to counter President Bush's case for war. The notion that the Iraq buildup was distracting from the fight against al-Qaida was made ridiculous by Khalid Shaikh Mohammed's capture. That has made more important the line of criticism that an Iraq-obsessed White House is neglecting North Korea.

If you weren't already scared by the Korean crisis, listening to Democrats will terrify you. Rep. Nancy Pelosi, who wouldn't consider Saddam Hussein a threat if he marched on San Francisco, says that North Korea is "extremely dangerous." Sen. Tom Daschle considers North Korea "a grave threat that seems to grow with each day that passes."

Democrats can hardly mention North Korea without saying "threat." Connecticut Sen. Chris Dodd thinks it "poses some tremendous threats to us," while Michigan Sen. Carl Levin calls it "a very threatening regime." Presidential candidate John Kerry asks, "Why are we not moving more aggressively with respect to that [North Korean] threat --where it is more real in terms of the longer-term threat of nuclearization -- than the current threat in Iraq?"

Everything Democrats say about North Korea is true and -- for their purposes -- shortsighted. Kerry's question will retain its bite only so long as Bush is distracted by Iraq. As soon as the administration turns its attention to North Korea and at least considers a military strike (as it must), the Democrats' apocalyptic rhetoric will lend support to a hard-line policy.

The Democratic standard from the Iraq debate is that a country must present an "imminent threat" for the United States to undertake military action. North Korea apparently meets the test. "This business of fighting war in Iraq," says West Virginia Sen. Robert Byrd, "is detracting our attention from that imminent [North Korean] threat." Democrats pooh-pooh the possibility of Saddam giving nukes to terrorists, but Delaware Sen. Joe Biden notes, ominously, that North Korea "exports things" and "all you need is two little pieces of that plutonium ... to produce a one-megaton bomb."

Assuming they will oppose a war in North Korea (and why would it be any more appealing than war in Iraq?), Democrats will have to walk all of this back -- e.g., North Korea has never actually used any of its nukes, it might be an imminent threat but hasn't attacked us yet, and as for its policies of mass starvation, well, even America has a hunger problem.

Also requiring reconsideration will be the Democrats' current taste for American unilateralism in the Korean crisis. The administration has been trying, futilely, to involve North Korea's neighbors in addressing the problem. Democrats, instead, want the United States to seize the initiative alone by engaging in bilateral talks.

Pelosi's position is that "In those talks, we must get more from North Korea than in existing agreements." Any hope of achieving that will mean exactly the sort of unilateralism that Pelosi hates. Military pressure will be necessary to give negotiations a glimmer of a chance of success, and if North Korea is determined to become a nuclear power, then war might be the only way to ensure a nuclear-free Korean peninsula.

At this point, Democrats will rue ever having tried to distract attention from one looming war by implying another war might be necessary elsewhere. They will forget their warnings of the "extremely dangerous," "grave," "tremendous," "imminent" threat of North Korea, and want to talk about something else -- say, Iran or even Nagorno-Karabakh.

Today, Daschle says, "The president should stop downplaying this threat." Tomorrow, he will say, "Uh, never mind."

Rich Lowry is editor of National Review, a TownHall.com member group

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Replies:
- What I'm seeing more of is Democrats waging a civil war (politically speaking....for now). I hear France has got a lot of nice countryside available.....the price? your national pride. (NT) -- Spock, 11:07:01 03/14/03 Fri
- Idiots who elected Daschle should be saying "never mind". The Demoncrats have fears right now-that war will be short and successful, the economy will improve. Then those having no message will have even less. Of course they will think of some double standard to be enforced, but who expects anything less? What will the liberal media say- if the Iraqis hug and kiss the Marines instead of firing at them - wasn't there a news blip in the Brit press that some Iraqi soldiers tried to surrender LAST WEEK during exercises? Oh well, lets just pray it's short-God bless George Bush, our military USA. (NT) -- pat, 07:23:33 03/19/03 Wed
So ya wanna have a boycott, eh? You'll need a list ... -- SurveyGuy, 21:00:25 03/12/03 Wed (maxtnt04-159.phlpa.fast.net/209.92.96.159)
http://newsmax.com/showinsidecover.shtml?a=2003/3/11/144347
Tuesday, March 11, 2003
French Products and Companies to Boycott

Dozens of readers have written in asking for a list of French companies products to boycott. After all, some are
well known, but many are not. Here goes.

The Web site FrogWienie targets those "Smelly Surrender Monkeys." It asks: "Are you sick and tired of the crying,
whining FrogWienies? We bail them out every time they are in trouble and what do they do?"

It lists:
� Bic (razors, pens and lighters)
� Club Med (vacations)
� Yoplait yogurt
� Vivendi and its subsidiary Universal Studios (music, movies and amusement parks)
� Christian Dior
� Michelin (tires and auto parts)
� Marie Claire
� Air Liquide
� Veritas Group
� M�phisto (shoes and clothes)
� Moet (champagne)
� Perrier (water; and who can forget that benzene scandal?)
� Evian (which we found out is owned by huge food company Danone, which boasts of being No. 1 in water, No. 1 in fresh dairy products and No. 2 in cereal biscuits and snack crackers; brands include Aqua,
� Wahaha and Volvic waters, Dannon yogurt and LU biscuits and crackers)
� Biotherm (cosmetics)
� DKNY - LVMH acquired 100 percent of Gabrielle Studio Inc., the privately owned licenser of Donna Karan trademarks.
� Jacobs Creek
� Givenchy
� Allegra (allergy medication, produced by the Strasbourg company Aventis Pharmaceuticals
� Pierre Cardin
� International Herald Tribune
� Air France
� Peugeot (wee automobiles)
� Alcatel
� Renault (automobiles - "I used that word loosely," says FrogWeeneie)
� Bollinger (champagne)
� Louis Vuitton
� Hennessy
� L'Oreal (health and beauty products)
� Lancome

Also:

� Motel 6 and Red Roof Inns are owned by Accor Hotels.

And don't forget to avoid the Total and Fina gas stations owned by the oil-greedy Frenchies.

P.S.: Thanks to GOP lawmakers, cafeterias in the U.S. House of Representatives will today start offering "freedom
fries" instead of you know what.

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Replies:
- Are people going to boycott "French Kissing"? (NT) -- William, 11:10:39 03/13/03 Thu
  - I heard that it is now called "Freedom Kissing." (NT) -- SG, 15:48:08 03/13/03 Thu
- Jacob's Creek Wines are Australian; perhaps they are owned by the French through a 'shell' company? Seagrams and Sofitel are majority if not wholly owned by French. (NT) -- JL, 20:52:21 03/13/03 Thu
  - Actually, I did hear from someone who worked at a US affiliate of Perrier that they are Swiss owned. Their h2O still sux , but just thought I'd mention that. (NT) -- JL, 21:40:56 03/13/03 Thu
- I think the only one we'd miss is Jacob's Creek -- we especially like their Shiraz-Cabernet Sauvignon blend. :( But none of the other cross my radar anyway. BTW: did you know that Evian backwards spells "naive"? (NT) -- Spock, 11:14:31 03/14/03 Fri
  - Try Wyndam Estates Shiraz (Bin 555) for a very nice inexpensive wine from Australia. Yes, I knew about Evian, but others mnight not have. (NT) -- SurveyGuy (wondering who can remember these lists anyway), 19:17:34 03/18/03 Tue
* Another important and eye opening look at the intentions and mindset of Muslim militants. -- William, 01:11:10 10/29/02 Tue (cache-rl02.proxy.aol.com/152.163.189.98)
Here is another look at what some militant Muslims are putting forth. After perusing their words of love and compassion, I wonder what people will think of the "Religion of Peace" as it is being presented to the world today.
Oh! Please excuse me. The people will not hear these words or read them, at least not many people here in the US, and other potential victims of the militant, hijacked portion of this bloodthirsty, suicidal, homicidal, misdirected cult called Islam and their adherents, called Muslims and their false prophets or false, equally delusional religious leaders. Many people will most likely not hear or read these words because this stuff is not normally revealed to the public or covered in what many consider to be the main stream press
Here is my small contribution to dispelling the darkness of ignorance by revealing the light of knowledge.
You can read the Arabic version at the web site http://www.qoqaz.com/
The translation and this material below can be found at MEMRI (The Middle East Media Research Institute)
On the Islamic internet site www.qoqaz.com which is hostile towards the Russians, and is probably run by Chechens, there are a number of unsigned articles which deal with Islam?s position towards prisoners. Drawing upon Islamic religious sources; e.g., the Koran and its interpretations as well as other traditions about the Prophet?s conduct, the articles advocate a position which permits the killing of prisoners if their killing benefits the Muslims. The following are the main elements in the articles:

?A Guide to the Perplexed about the Permissibility of Killing Prisoners?

In an article titled ?A Guide to the Perplexed Regarding the Permissibility of Killing Prisoners,? which appeared in the column ?Jihad News from the Land of the Caucasus(1)? the author suggests that the Islamic religious scholars present five different alternatives, drawn from the various interpretations of the Koran:
1) A polytheist prisoner must be killed. No amnesty may be granted to him, nor can he be ransomed.
2) All infidel polytheists and the People of the Book (i.e., Jews and Christians) are to be killed. They may not be granted amnesty, nor can they be ransomed.
3) Amnesty and ransom are the only two ways to deal with prisoners.
4) Amnesty and ransom are possible only after the killing of a large number of prisoners.
5) The Imam, or someone acting on his behalf, can choose between killing, amnesty, ransom or enslaving the prisoner.

Killing a Prisoner for the Sins of Others is Permissible

The last position is the one preferred by the author who explained that the Prophet Muhammad had dealt with the prisoners in different ways to maximize the benefits to Muslims.

He gives examples regarding the methods that the Prophet Muhammad had chosen to kill, grant amnesty, or ransom prisoners.

The author finds it necessary to present the subject in reaction to an Islamic criticism ?which had torn his heart? about the execution of nine [Russian] prisoners after the Russian Government had refused to surrender ?one of Russia?s biggest criminals and crooks.?

According to the author, [the Chechens] have executed the prisoners not because of their heart?s desire, but because they have seen a benefit for the Muslims in such an act.

In reaction to the arguments made by some critics that no one should be punished for the sins of others, the author maintains that Allah permits the killing of a prisoner because he is a prisoner, and all the more so if his killing for the sins of others serves an important Islamic interest, as well as a deterrent (to the enemy). He brings examples from actions of the Prophet. A state of war justifies actions of the sort that could guarantee the security of the soldiers of Islam. Moreover, only with such action is it possible to protect the honor of Muslims.(2)

In an article titled ?Are Hostages Prisoners?? the author explains the concept of ?hostages? in its modern application to local kidnapped individuals and foreigners who are held as a means of pressure to achieve specific goals. According to him, he who was kidnapped in accordance with Islamic law should be considered a hostage, and hence a prisoner, who should be treated in the manner that would bring benefits to the Muslims.(3)

Endnotes:
(1) In an article titled ?Prisoners in Islam? the author indicates that there are five methods that Islam proposes for dealing with prisoners: release without ransom, ransom, killing, enslavement or subjugation to the authority of the Islamic state. The method changes according to circumstances but it has to be one that brings the greatest benefits to Muslims. For example, if amongst the prisoners there is someone who is strong and is likely to tantalize the Muslims and his keeping alive may cause harm to them, his killing will be the preferred method. If there is someone who is weak but wealthy, ransoming him is the best method. If there is someone who holds a favorable view of Muslims and could help them and their prisoners, amnesty is the best method. If there are those who could render a service, such as women and children, enslavement is the best method. http://www.qoqaz.com/qoqaz.asp?9=4&pp=1&sec=7
(2) www.qoqaz.com/qoqaz.asp?p=4
(3) www.qoqaz.com/qoqaz.asp?p=4&pp=1&sec=8

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- Define "benefit the Muslims" -- if it means to send them all the sooner to the "bosom of Allah" I could be turned to this thinking....after a fashion.....Heck, let's just send them on their way and be done with it! (NT) -- Spock, 12:41:13 10/29/02 Tue
- called Muslims and their false prophets or false, equally delusional religious leaders -- HITECCAT, 04:32:13 03/18/03 Tue
Rally for America -- William, 02:06:02 03/17/03 Mon (cache-dq01.proxy.aol.com/205.188.209.133)
The Rally for America attracted many thousands more participants than actually arrived at the main site at the Freedom Foundation.

My wife and I and our two small children attended but we did not arrive at the main site.

The arrangement was that all participants were to park at the Baptist Convention or the Freedom Business Center on Gulph Road and board a shuttle bus from which of these two sites we parked.

There were so many more participants who attended that, due to a shortage of shuttle buses and a three to six mile walk to the main rally site, a few thousand participants were left standing awaiting the arrival of the shuttle buses at the parking area we used, the Freedom Business Center. As a result we never made it to the main site for the rally. There could have been a rally at each of the two parking/shuttle areas, making that three rallies rather than one.

The news media and others might not be reporting this.

The bottom line is that many thousands more participants came out for this rally in Valley Forge than those who were actually seen at the main rally.

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YAAAAYYYY TONY!!!!!! -- Spock, 10:49:58 03/14/03 Fri (user-vc8fm1s.biz.mindspring.com/216.135.216.60)

Surprisingly supportive coverage of a lecture that Justice Scalia gave at U Penn on Feb. 13 regarding the constancy, rather than the organicness, of the Constitution as a fixed legal document.

Stick to the original, says Scalia

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So who is planning to attend the Rally for America on Sunday? If anyone from Bucks or eastern Montgomery needs a ride I can try to hook you up. -- JL, 22:21:19 03/13/03 Thu (pcp01376707pcs.selrsv01.pa.comcast.net/68.80.69.241)

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In defense of tolerance -- Dr. Phil Fernandes, 16:34:09 04/19/03 Sat (0-2pool18-141.nas10.bellevue1.wa.us.da.qwest.net/67.3.18.141)
I believe it to be rather ironic that Christianity is viewed as being "intolerant" & is practically banned from public schools in North America, while the supposedly "tolerant" pro-homosexual activists force their agenda on public school children using the power of big government to achieve their goals. And then, as if that's not enough, the homosexual activists try to force traditional Christians, Muslims, & Jews to refrain from calling homosexuality a "sin." I guess homosexual activists, in the name of freedom & tolerance, want to control both public education & the religions of other people. What kind of tolerance is this? Pastor Stephen Boissoin has done nothing wrong; please don't strip him of his religious freedom. Don't be intolerant of him in the name of "tolerance."

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Democratic Talk Radio -- Stephen Crockett, 00:47:26 07/29/02 Mon (cache-rl02.proxy.aol.com/152.163.189.98)
Al Lawrence and Stephen Crockett host Democratic Talk Radio which is based in Al Gore's old Congressional District. We would like the Democratic activists interested in promoting talk radio that is not totally dominated by the Republican Right and their Big Business bosses in Philadelphia to join our discussions on the Democratic Talk Radio website message board. We are available as call-in guests anywhere in America. Our website is http://www.DemocraticTalkRadio.com . We are available by phone at 931-438-1500 or 443-421-0287.

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- Thanks for the notice. Are you going to come back here and converse some more or just spam this web site and run? Your comment about big business bosses is hilarious. I wonder what Ted Turner, Bill Gates, Barbara Streisand, and many other Democrat "Big Bosses" and Democrat/Liberal multimillionaires fall under? Now, let's see, ther is WHAT in Phila, that is extremely Left wing/Liberal/Democrat, and there is NPR and others. Quite a few talk shows feature Libertarian minded hosts as well as Democrats and Republicans. I'd say the Dems/Liberals/Left wingers are more than well represented. Let's see, Republican Right = big business bosses and evil ... Democrats = care about people and good. Do I have that straight? (NT) -- William, 11:11:54 07/29/02 Mon
- This just cracks me up. One radio station is such a monstrous threat?! I love how the existence of one conservative forum in the midst of our liberal-dominated airwaves is suddenly "domination"! Wish my checkbook worked that way...I could retire. And it's interesting to see how the purportedly tolerant party is intolerant of anyone airing views they don't like or agree with. (NT) -- Spock (not looking to live in Camazotz any time soon, but it appears to the the up-and-coming neighborhood for liberals & democrats), 12:36:19 07/29/02 Mon
  - Spock, they are so full of lies, deception, hate filled rhetoric, and such that they don't smell their own stench. One of the best spins which they have gotten away with is the variations on the "Evil Rich", and "Evil Republicans", and the "Republican Right Big Business Bosses" as well as painting as evil many Christians and Jews. Democrats are into big business and are quite wealthy. I give you Ted Turner and Bill Gates to name just two. Barabara Streisand, Rosie O'Donnel, Brandon Tartikoff, and on and on. (NT) -- William, 13:04:05 07/29/02 Mon
  - Don't forget, Tennessee is where Phil valentine on the radio has stopped a tax bill TWICE with grassroots efforts. Must be driving the tax-and-spend liberal crazy! (NT) -- SurveyGuy, 20:17:58 07/29/02 Mon
    - (NT) -- , 15:17:34 08/01/02 Thu
- note, if you will, that this talk show is for Democratic activists only....
  apparently they're only interested in preaching to the choir....
  reminds me of something said re: conservatives and liberals:
  conservatives think liberals are just stupid, while liberals think conservatives are evil (NT) -- H_Bergeron (liberal narrowcasting - who'd have thunk it?), 13:17:10 07/29/02 Mon
  - Liberals are evil. The public is stupid. (NT) -- SurveyGuy, 19:43:21 07/29/02 Mon
    - After visitng their 'message board' I have to disagree. Liberals are evil AND stupid. AND very amusing. (NT) -- JL, 21:05:31 07/31/02 Wed
    - Fake Conservatives like the Bush Republicans are evil... the followers are stupid! -- Stephen Crockett, 22:36:29 03/09/03 Sun
      - You had nothing creative or original to say so you parrot SurveyGuy about Liberals being evil and the public stupid and change the words a bit. I can also see that you have nothing much to offer but whining and complaining. At least you came back to this web site and you did leave another message.
        The abuse you described at your message board sounds like the behavior of the Liberals, Left Wingers, and many Democrats. (NT) -- William, 23:31:46 03/09/03 Sun
        
        William, did you notice how long it took Mr. Crockett to reply? Imagine that, a speechless liberal, reduced to a petty nyah-nyah in the end. Must be some great talk show they've got going. (NT) -- Spock, 17:47:17 03/12/03 Wed
        We checked out their board first. Just repeating the lies of the left. I still wonder if Robert Rubin will ever face a grand jury to testify. No liberal ever responds to that. Medicare is a disaster- many elderly can't find doctors. Lots of really evil and stupid actions by liberals that hurt people. Who began raiding the Soc. Sec. "trust fund" and then lie about it. Reepublicans need to speak out about that, but they have been complicitly silent. (NT) -- SurveyGuy, 19:43:11 03/12/03 Wed
        7-1/2 months for a response? YIKES! My excuse is I travel alot. But at least I can configure a reply every 3 months or so. Shows ya what we're up against ... LMAO!!! ; ) (NT) -- JL, 21:50:48 03/13/03 Thu
- Maybe Gore will actually win his own state next election !! (NT) -- Chez, 17:14:07 07/29/02 Mon
- The show will fail. Obviously you will attempt to promulgate continuing lies since you only want "Democratic activists." Conservative talk shows are popular because there is at least an attempt to tell the truth. While this sometimes falls short or deteriorates into idiology, all I ever hear are blatant lies from liberal spokepeople. I get tired of Gephardt's fairy tales. and Daschel's blatant politicizing even to the detriment of the country. it is the agenda, not the nation, that is important. The end justifies the means (doesn't that sound familiar?). (NT) -- SurveyGuy, 19:58:30 07/29/02 Mon
  - I took a look at the discussion board. What tripe. Usual parroting of H of R rep lies and character assassinations. No mention of why Robert Run=bin isn't being called to testify. No mention of his part in changing accounting rules while secretary of treasury. Just usual innuendo backed by rumors and lies. Not worth participating in IMHO, but have a look for yourselves. We let everyone post here but lies will not go unchallenged. On that board, lies and idiology are theorder of the day. They think Gore needs to win in 2004 to, get this, "save America." Maybe they can get some Buddhist monks to vote for him. (NT) -- SurveyGuy (are we looking at a Lieberman-Gore ticket in '04?), 20:14:43 07/29/02 Mon
    - Just curious: Where's Joe coming down on current events in the Middle East? How does he feel about Israel and her position? And his party's pandering to the "poor Palestinians"? And I'll never forget how utterly relieved and disturbed Gore looked at the national prayer service following 9/11 -- he sure as hell was glad he wasn't in the White House for once. (NT) -- Spock, 09:07:45 07/30/02 Tue
      - Joe is pretty much keeping his mouth shut, even about anti-semitism in Europe. Someone has been circulating an open letter, supposedly by Joe condemning France, buit Joe did not write it. In fact,he even made a public statement disavowing it. If Joe had any substance he would have said, I didn;t write it but I wish i did, but alas, poor Joe. (NT) -- SurveyGuy, 19:18:34 07/30/02 Tue
        
        How convenient. Perhaps he's making a pilgrimmage up de Nile... (NT) -- Spock (appreciating the value of exploring one's roots), 10:14:56 07/31/02 Wed
    - I looked on the site as well. It is a turn off because, as you said, it is full of you know what. Same old repeated lies, exaggerations, old outdated and since disproven rumors and accusations. Why is the Enron thing not a big deal among many democrat members of congress? Because they are involved and have the most to lose if an investigation is pushed foward on the scale that they try on other issues. That is why they are keeping their profile low. They are trying to accuse Bush and the Republicans for it yet it does not stick. Yet they clearly and falsely accuse Bush and the Republicans for this. What a bunch of crap! (NT) -- William, 22:28:56 07/31/02 Wed
      - (NT) -- , 15:16:28 08/01/02 Thu
Iraqis want the US to overthrow Saddam Hussein and Liberate Iraq -- William, 04:43:11 03/12/03 Wed (cache-mtc-ah04.proxy.aol.com/64.12.96.169)

Iraqi immigrants want Saddam ousted
Steve Miller
THE WASHINGTON TIMES

Published March 11, 2003

SOUTHFIELD, Mich. - Ramsey Jiddou, fresh from a conference in Washington with National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice, Vice President Richard B. Cheney and Secretary of Defense Donald H. Rumsfeld, was back here at home to beat the drums of liberation with his fellow Iraqis.

"Finally, somebody is listening to us," Mr. Jiddou, a chemist who immigrated from his native Baghdad in the late 1970s to escape Saddam Hussein's dictatorial oppression, said over the weekend.

His sentiments are shared throughout the largest Iraqi community in the United States, in southeast Michigan: Get Saddam out of power and do it now.

"I want peace in Iraq. So if you are for peace, you cannot be for Saddam. It is all about changing the regime," said Ala Faik, a real estate agent in Ann Arbor, 45 miles down Interstate 94 from Detroit. Like almost everyone who has settled here from his homeland, he simply knows that Saddam has to go by any means necessary.

Since a June conference here of various anti-Saddam groups that was attended by low-level State Department members, Iraqi communities in Michigan, California, Illinois and Tennessee have been quietly tapped by the Bush administration for support and advice on the U.S. effort to depose Saddam.

At government expense, these representatives have been brought to Washington to tell Mr. Cheney, Miss Rice and other ranking officials of the pressing need to remove Saddam from power.

The State Department would not comment on its effort to recruit these community members.

"We have actually said this for 35 years," said Mr. Jiddou, 59, as he drove through a large settlement of Chaldeans - members of Iraq's Christian minority - in this Detroit suburb, where a retirement home, Chaldean Manor, sits next to a megachurch and the Chaldean Club.

An estimated 120,000 Chaldeans live in and around Detroit, and 60,000 more - Arabs and Kurds as well as Chaldeans - came in two waves: one after the rise to power of Saddam in 1979 and another after the 1991 Gulf war and the ensuing failed uprisings.

They danced in the aisles when Deputy Secretary of Defense Paul Wolfowitz showed up in Dearborn to address them last month.

"He did not expect that. The people were so glad that he came here to talk to us about ending the regime in Iraq" said Mr. Faik, who is part of a national group of Iraqis, called the Iraqi Forum for Democracy, who advocate the removal of Saddam.

Last week, a coalition of mostly Detroit area Iraqis, Muslim and Christian, sent a letter to Miss Rice, thanking her for inviting them to the White House and stressing that "those who are marching for 'peace and justice' in the name of the Iraqi people are unwittingly supporting a totalitarian dictator who promotes terrorism."

"These people, these so-called peace people who support human rights, have never been there for the people of Iraq," said Salam Jafar, a 52-year-old physician, who left Iraq in 1980.

He sits in a suburban Ann Arbor kitchen with several other Iraqi Muslims, gulping coffee and talking about siblings, parents and children who were taken in Saddam-ordered campaigns of ethnic cleansing and brutal suppression of uprisings.

All four of the men, in their 40s and 50s, have made the United States home, raising families, paying mortgages and hoping for the end of the Saddam era so relatives in Iraq can be free to visit and vice versa.

Until now, anti-Saddam statements from Iraqis in the U.S. were rare, they all conceded; Saddam has spies among them in Detroit's Middle Eastern community.

"People are now encouraged by this administration, and we are tired of not being able to tell the truth," Dr. Jafar said, risking retribution against family members in Iraq.

"And we got tired of all those stories from Iraq, where the people tell the news people that they don't want war," he added. "Of course they say that. There are [government police] right there next to them. To tell the truth could mean death."

If Saddam is toppled as hoped, there are few Iraqis who would return permanently to their home country, although most would enthusiastically help settle a long-awaited democracy.

"Nobody here would go back, not after all this time," said Ilham Jiddou, wife of Mr. Jiddou, the chemist. "It will take a long time to really establish the country ... too long."

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Replies:
- I cannot wait for this day. First for the benefit of those who feel we should never have listened to the Unfit Nothings bk in the 90's and not ran through Baghdad. And, secondly, the crow will be served room temperature. : ) (NT) -- JL, 21:46:29 03/13/03 Thu
Bush Sr warning over unilateral action. See Today's London Times http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-605441,00.html Bush Jr would be well advised to take the advice of Bush Sr, a President with a creditable record both as C-inC and a decorated front-line pilot. Full text inside. -- Chris Henry, 10:00:15 03/10/03 Mon (cache10-2.ruh.isu.net.sa/212.138.47.29)
March 10, 2003

Bush Sr warning over unilateral action
From Roland Watson in Washington

THE first President Bush has told his son that hopes of peace in the Middle East would be ruined if a war with Iraq were not backed by international unity.
Drawing on his own experiences before and after the 1991 Gulf War, Mr Bush Sr said that the brief flowering of hope for Arab-Israeli relations a decade ago would never have happened if America had ignored the will of the United Nations.

He also urged the President to resist his tendency to bear grudges, advising his son to bridge the rift between the United States, France and Germany.

�You�ve got to reach out to the other person. You�ve got to convince them that long-term friendship should trump short-term adversity,� he said.

The former President�s comments reflect unease among the Bush family and its entourage at the way that George W. Bush is ignoring international opinion and overriding the institutions that his father sought to uphold. Mr Bush Sr is a former US Ambassador to the UN and comes from a family steeped in multi-lateralist traditions.

Although not addressed to his son in person, the message, in a speech at Tufts University in Massachusetts, was unmistakeable. Mr Bush Sr even came close to conceding that opponents of his son�s case against President Saddam Hussein, who he himself is on record as loathing, have legitimate cause for concern.

He said that the key question of how many weapons of mass destruction Iraq held �could be debated�. The case against Saddam was �less clear� than in 1991, when Mr Bush Sr led an international coalition to expel invading Iraqi troops from Kuwait. Objectives were �a little fuzzier today�, he added.

After the Gulf War, Mr Bush Sr steered Israel and its Arab neighbours to the Madrid conference, a stepping stone to the historic Israeli-Palestinian Oslo accords, in much the same way that the present President has talked about the removal of Saddam as opening the way to a wider peace in the region.

In an ominous warning for his son, Mr Bush Sr said that he would have been able to achieve nothing if he had jeopardised future relations by ignoring the UN. �The Madrid conference would never have happened if the international coalition that fought together in Desert Storm had exceeded the UN mandate and gone on its own into Baghdad after Saddam and his forces.�

Also drawing on the lessons of 1991, he said that it was imperative to mend fences with allies immediately, rather than waiting until after a war. He had been infuriated with the decision of King Hussein of Jordan to side with Saddam rather than the US, but while criticising the Jordanian leader in public and freezing $41 million in US aid, he also passed word to King Hussein that he understood his domestic tensions.

Mr Bush Jr, who is said never to forget even relatively minor slights, has alarmed analysts with the way in which he has allowed senior Administration figures such as Donald Rumsfeld, the Defence Secretary, aggressively to criticise France and Germany.

There are, however, signs that Mr Bush Sr�s message may be getting through.

Father and son talk regularly and it was, in part, pressure from Mr Bush Sr�s foreign policy coterie, that helped to persuade the President to go to the UN last September.

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Replies:
- Please define 'unilateral' for me. This is absolutley the most over-used, inappropriate misnomer of this entire debate. Or does 'unilateral' now come to be construed as against the French, Germans, and Belgians? I guess the British, Australians, Spanish, Italians, and all of 'New' Europe, and many, many others count as nothing? Where do you all get off with this spin? (NT) -- JL ~sigh~, 21:26:59 03/13/03 Thu
Did anyone catch Larry King last night on CNN? -- Spock, 15:46:56 03/12/03 Wed (user-vc8fm1s.biz.mindspring.com/216.135.216.60)

The topic for a panel discussion was what does the Bible say about war, and what is the Christian position on war, particularly in view of current events with Iraq.

On the panel were three conservative theologians, John MacArthur, Max Lucado, and Bob Jones, as well as two liberal theologians, whose names I didn't recognize nor remember, but one was a Catholic priest, and the other was a Methodist bishop (who, relevant or not, was black).
I don't usually watch Larry King, but found myself admiring him as an impartial moderator particularly on such a hot topic.

It was interesting to hear the liberal theologians give politically "safe," i.e., wishy-washy, answers -- a la, "I believe THIS....unless it makes me look bad, in which case, I'll believe the current popular opinion...until it changes..."

It was also sobering to see the liberal theologians be quick to disagree and undercut the conservatives, and rely on personal or popular opinion instead of answering what the Bible says about these hard questions -- which was the stated topic of the discussion. (Hey guys, it's OK to say the B-word! and mention the J-guy!)

It was interesting to watch the Methodist guy squirm and hem and haw when Larry King asked him point blank if by being a Christian he believed Christianity were right and true. Oh, how controversial it is to admit something like that today. My take is that if you don't believe Christianity is true, why subscribe to it? What's the point? Why especially make it your career? It's disturbing to hear church officials make such statements. PICK ANOTHER CAREER ALREADY! What a dishonest life to lead, to tell people to believe something you don't believe yourself. That's called hypocrisy.

Also, there was the liberals' insistence that conservative Christians are war-mongerers, namely these other guys on the panel and chiefly our President, when in fact the conservative guys were repeatedly stating they were not "for" war, but agreed with it as a potential outcome of our current international situation.

Nobody takes a stand anymore, so when someone does, everybody gets all wiggy over it. No sane person "wants" war, but sometimes that's what results of an impasse. Talk about war-mongering, uh...hello?! *WE* WERE ATTACKED 18 MONTHS AGO! Why are we not entitled to stand up for ourselves?

Nobody complained when Clinton went into Kosovo ten years ago. Larry King brought this up, and the liberal guys couldn't answer it. Clinton had full support. Oh, I get it...he was one of the *cool* kids. Silly me....I guess I should know better. The "rules" don't apply to them.

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Replies:
- I don't watch Larry "Softball" King. I am surprised that he made the Kosovo remark. he probably expected that his liberal buddies would have an answer prepared for that, but they must've been fooled to hear a decent question from ol' Larry. Whoops. Betcha he never does that again. (NT) -- SurveyGuy, 19:30:20 03/12/03 Wed
- SPOCK: See my remarks on Operation Desert Fox below .. You will find it very interesting to do a google search .. (NT) -- Chez, 09:56:43 03/13/03 Thu
George W. Bush's approval (job) ratings -- Wililam, 01:47:40 01/31/03 Fri (cache-mtc-ah04.proxy.aol.com/64.12.96.169)

Nothing disarms lies and deception like the truth (although liars just deny the truth when they are presented with it).

I have read and heard quite a number of Left wing, anti-US, anti-Bush rhetoric and propaganda recently, as I am certain that many many of you have as well.

Here is a site which lists several poll results regarding President George W. Bush's job approval polls.

You can see for yourself what the numbers are. I believe these numbers were not updated to include Bush's State of the Union address yet.

Next time someone tells you that Bush's job approval ratings have plummeted or took a plunge or plunged you can see for yourself what the truth is and then, once again, see how dishonest and inclined to twist the truth these people on the Left really are.

George Washington University
As I read at Andrew Sullivan's Blog Site today "The dictionary definition of a "plunge" is "to descend steeply; fall precipitously; to move forward and downward violently; to become suddenly lower; decrease dramatically.""

You might like to read a comment from the parapraph titled "Krugman Watch", available today, Friday, January 31, 2003 at 1:45 AM, in which Krugman is quoted as claiming that "Mr. Bush's approval ratings have plunged over the last two months"

I don't think so!

Maybe Mister Paul Krugman needs a reality check.

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Replies:
- Liberals have for years been telling us that bad is good, good is bad, right is wrong and wring is right. It has gotten so thatthey believe their own lies, liek "Bush is a moron." KLet them keep thinking so. The public is starting to awaken faster than the extreme left wing (of whom about 80% of journalists seem to belong. The other 20% act that way out of intimidation from the 80%). Some liberals are beginning to wake up and are beginning to see the Democrats are the party of broken promises. (I amde that description up. I like it.) (NT) -- SurveyGuy, 12:36:44 02/01/03 Sat
  - The party of broken promises, eh? I like it too! Anything that Krugman has to say can be found at Dimocratic Underground (sic), where he seems to gather his 'talking points'. Wanna see some REAL hate-filled vitriol? It's worth it for the laffs. (NT) -- JL, 16:04:44 02/08/03 Sat
  - Of course Bush is not a moron - he managed to keep out of the Vietnam War, didn't he? (NT) -- Ahmed, 04:01:41 03/03/03 Mon
    - shut up -- don, 19:59:30 03/12/03 Wed
What the president said -- William, 16:05:25 03/10/03 Mon (cache-dq01.proxy.aol.com/205.188.209.133)

"What if [Saddam] fails to comply and we fail to act, or we take some ambiguous third route, which gives him yet more opportunities to develop this program of weapons of mass destruction? ... Well, he will conclude that the international community has lost its will. He will then conclude that he can go right on and do more to rebuild an arsenal of devastating destruction. And some day, some way, I guarantee you he'll use the arsenal."

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Kiesling/Oderint dum metuant -- Kim, 06:32:20 03/10/03 Mon (dialup-63.209.86.184.Dial1.LosAngeles1.Level3.net/63.209.86.184)
For those of you who would like to inform yourselves by actually reading Kiesling's letter of resignation, in which he suggested "Oderint dum metuant" as a possible motto for the United States, you can find it at http://www.voy.com/15996/2/6265.html where it was entered into the Congressional Record.

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You won't like this ... but that's our major parties for ya. It feels so good when I vote Libertarian in light of such things. -- SurveyGuy, 18:13:54 03/08/03 Sat (maxtnt02-214.phlpa.fast.net/209.92.227.214)
U.S. Providing N. Korea With Nuke Info
Mar 7, 8:33 PM (ET), By H. JOSEF HEBERT

WASHINGTON (AP) - While the Bush administration confronts North Korea over development of nuclear weapons, it is allowing the regime access to thousands of documents on nuclear technology as part of an electric power project, the Energy Department acknowledged.

Rep. Ed Markey, D-Mass., questioned the continuation of the nuclear technology transfers.

In a letter to Markey, Energy Secretary Spencer Abraham said the administration was considering suspending the technology transfers, which began in 1996 as part of a program to help North Korea build two light water nuclear reactors to generate electricity.

The program was extended for another five years by the Bush administration in 2001. The twin reactors are being built by a South Korean consortium using reactor technology developed by Westinghouse. Construction began last August.

The Energy Department confirmed Friday that about
3,100 documents related to nuclear power plant licensing and operation have been approved for use in the project. About 300 of the documents have already been transferred, while about 100 documents were blocked by the Energy Department's export control office.

Abraham said every precaution is being taken to assure that North Korea "does not receive technology or assistance that could further a nuclear weapons program."

"The authorization explicitly restricts U.S. technology transfers to that related to licensing and safe operation" of the proposed reactors and "bars transfer of any U.S. technology that would enable North Korea to design or manufacture key components or nuclear reactor fuel," Abraham wrote Markey in a March 4 letter.

He said the DOE export control office "has carefully and thoroughly reviewed" the documents related to the reactor project.

Markey said the administration should halt all nuclear cooperation with North Korea and immediately bar the further transfer of the documents, which cover such subjects as training, quality assurance, reactor construction and reactor safety.

"While Bush administration officials have thrashed the Clinton administration's approach to North Korea, the fact is that they continued the same ill-conceived policy of offering (North Korean leader) Kim Jong Il access to nuclear technology," complained Markey.

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Operation Desert Fox -- Chez, 22:00:47 03/07/03 Fri (07-053.002.popsite.net/64.24.19.53)
Does any body remember operation Desert Fox? The Clinton administration launched hundreds of missiles at Iraq in an attempt to destroy � military and security targets in Iraq that contribute to Iraq's ability to produce, store, maintain and deliver weapons of mass destruction."
I do not seem to remember any protesters calling �no blood for oil�, no comparisons of Clinton to Hitler, no call for UN approval. No Hollywood wackos crying..

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Replies:
- That's because they knew he wasn't serious. The only "fox" was probably hiding under his bed. (NT) -- SurveyGuy, 18:00:04 03/08/03 Sat
How soon the French (and others) forget . . . -- SurveyGuy, 18:45:54 03/01/03 Sat (maxtnt04-67.phlpa.fast.net/209.92.96.67)

In Flanders Fields
In Flanders fields the poppies blow
Between the crosses, row on row,
That mark our place; and in the sky
The larks, still bravely singing, fly
Scarce heard amid the guns below.
We are the Dead. Short days ago
We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,
In Flanders fields

Take up our quarrel with the foe:
To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.

by John McCrae

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Replies:
- How soon the French (and others) forget . . . -- Chris Henry, 02:44:28 03/03/03 Mon
  - I don't understand your point. Do you mean they remember inviting Hitler to Paris and long for those days again? I don;t mean to be glib, but your answer is too cryptic for me to grasp your intended meaning due to your pronoun use "It's because...." If I interpret what you wrote literally you said they forget perhaps because they remember more vividly. ????? Anyway, I hope you enjoyed reading that old poem again. (NT) -- SG [Whatever the reason, their active anti-Americanism has become more than a civil disagreement.], 21:51:28 03/03/03 Mon
    - Perhaps it's their vivid memory of the carnage of the last 2 world wars , as evoked by this poem, that makes them want to avoid war if there's an alternative. Who remembers what WWI was about, and what did it achieve? 25.000 French soldiers served in the last Gulf War, so they'll fight when there's obvious aggression, but they clearly feel this proposed war is about a non-existent threat based on a tissue of lies. However you should post your question on a French site to get an authentic French viewpoint. (NT) -- Chris Henry, 03:08:52 03/04/03 Tue
    - Could you tell me the title of the history book that says that the French invited Hitler to Paris? Is it the same one that says that 6 million Jews was an accounting mistake and Hitler didn't know anyway that his over-zealous subordinated were running an extermination program? Is there a book that says that we invited the Viet Cong into Saigon? (NT) -- Chris Henry, 03:14:51 03/04/03 Tue
      - It all depends what you mean by "invited" and what you mean by "the French." Nice debate. See the article that I posted above with picture of Hitler in Paris. (NT) -- SG, 16:18:48 03/05/03 Wed
- Thx, SG. (NT) -- JL, 19:04:06 03/03/03 Mon
  - You're Welcome. Who says this board has no class? We have poetry, art and even some music sometimes. (NT) -- SG, 21:56:00 03/03/03 Mon
Nice discussion on France, Hitler, etc. -- SurveyGuy, 16:14:51 03/05/03 Wed (maxtnt02-160.phlpa.fast.net/209.92.227.160)
Here is some History for you:
http://www.nationalreview.com/weekend/history/history-kopel071401.shtml

The French did not exactly willingly invite Hitler, but the above article gives a nice summary. Enjoy.

Also, this picture says a lot:

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Replies:
- 'For France is not alone! ... She can, like England, use without limit the immense industry of United States. ' Hmmmm. (NT) -- JL, 19:44:45 03/05/03 Wed
- Yankee: Hey, Frenchie, Can you speak German? Frenchie: AhhunhHUHNHHUH (ala Glenn Beck) But No, I don't... Yankee: YOU'RE WELCOME!! Think about it for a little - those ingrates! I hear there are restaurants in the area crossing out french items on the menu - the wine, for instance, and renaming appropriate dishes - freedom fries, unfrench toast, unfrench dressing, etc. - I love it. AhhunhHUNH!!! And as an afterthought, consider going to the rally for the USA at Valley Forge on Sun 3-16 I believe - it's being advertised on 1210 - bet the mainstream doesn't cover it! (NT) -- pat (grrrrr), 09:52:30 03/06/03 Thu
  - I think we should stop giving the French credit for what they did not create. French Fries are from Belgium for example. Most of the others are U.S. creations, called "French" to make them sound more sophisticated. Little did the people realize. (NT) -- SurveyGuy, 16:46:43 03/07/03 Fri
Micheal Skakel -- Jan East, 13:26:49 11/25/02 Mon (campuscache1.eku.edu/157.89.46.110)
Mr. Skakel's aunt married a Kennedy, I hardly believe that makes him part of the Kennedy "lice". If people would focus more on the evidence or the lack of it and lay off the "Kennedy fascination", one would see why the indictment was unjust. Sadly enough,if Mr. Skakel's aunt had not married into the Kennedy family, people would not be as observant to this murder twenty some years after the fact. This is proven by the media in their vivid details to ensure that readers know that Mr. Skakel is related to the Kennedy's. I believe in innocent until proven guilty. The public is so determined to place blame on one of the Skakels, it really doesn't matter which one, they are all kin the Kennedy's by marriage, that the fact that there was and still is no evidence to prove that Micheal Skakel committed the murder makes little or no difference to some. The murder was gruesome and senseless, but to convict basically on a "he said, she said basis" is an injustice. If this indictment gives one a feeling of justice, even in the lack of evidence, I believe one has no real sense of what justice means in the pretense of law. I am not a pro advocator of Skakel per se, I am a pro advocator of justice as it is explained by law.

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Replies:
- I dont care -- Nancy, 11:17:10 03/06/03 Thu
- So you must also have a problem that the Kennedy connection got Mr. Skakel's case handled with kid gloves originally so that the efforts to gather evidence at the time was minimal. In the end, I don't care. His behavior and attitude is reminiscent enough of the Kennedy's behavior that he is dispicable whether he's a murderer or not. In the end, it is a local matter, just like that of William Kennedy Smith was. Why is this case even discussion worthy? I doubt your allegations, since the MA public keeps electing the most dispicable Kennedy of all. (NT) -- SurveyGuy, 16:42:16 03/07/03 Fri
A little something to ponder re: the relationship between France and Iraq -- William, 06:51:52 03/07/03 Fri (cache-mtc-ah04.proxy.aol.com/64.12.96.169)

Iraq strengthens air force with French parts
Bill Gertz
THE WASHINGTON TIMES

Published March 7, 2003

A French company has been selling spare parts to Iraq for its fighter jets and military helicopters during the past several months, according to U.S. intelligence officials.

The unidentified company sold the parts to a trading company in the United Arab Emirates, which then shipped the parts through a third country into Iraq by truck.

The spare parts included goods for Iraq's French-made Mirage F-1 jets and Gazelle attack helicopters.

An intelligence official said the illegal spare-parts pipeline was discovered in the past two weeks and that sensitive intelligence about the transfers indicates that the parts were smuggled to Iraq as recently as January.

Other intelligence reports indicate that Iraq had succeeded in acquiring French weaponry illegally for years, the official said.

The parts appear to be included in an effort by the Iraqi military to build up materiel for its air forces before any U.S. military action, which could occur before the end of the month.

The officials identified the purchaser of the parts as the Al Tamoor Trading Co., based in Dubai, United Arab Emirates. A spokesman for the company could not be reached for comment.

The French military parts were then sent by truck into Iraq from a neighboring country the officials declined to identify.

Iraq has more than 50 Mirage F-1 jets and an unknown number of Gazelle attack helicopters, according to the London-based International Institute for Strategic Studies.

An administration official said the French parts transfers to Iraq may be one reason France has so vehemently opposed U.S. plans for military action against Iraq. "No wonder the French are opposing us," this official said.

The official, however, said intelligence reports of the parts sale did not indicate that the activity was sanctioned by the French government or that Paris knows about the transfers.

The intelligence reports did not identify the French company involved in selling the aircraft parts or whether the parts were new or used.

The Mirage F-1 was made by France's Dassault Aviation. Gazelle helicopters were made by Aerospatiale, which later became part of a consortium of European defense companies.

The importation of military goods by Iraq is banned under U.N. Security Council resolutions passed since the 1991 Persian Gulf war.

Nathalie Loiseau, press counselor at the French Embassy, said her government has no information about the spare-parts smuggling and has not been approached by the U.S. government about the matter.

"We fully comply with the U.N. sanctions, and there is no sale of any kind of military material or weapons to Iraq," she said.

A CIA spokesman had no comment.

A senior administration official declined to discuss Iraq's purchase of French warplane and helicopter parts. "It is well known that the Iraqis use front companies to try to obtain a number of prohibited items," the official said.

The disclosure comes amid heightened anti-French sentiment in the United States over Paris' opposition to U.S. plans for using force to disarm Iraq.

A senior defense official said France undermined U.S. efforts to disarm Iraq last year by watering down language of U.N. Security Council Resolution 1441 that last fall required Iraq to disarm all its chemical, biological and nuclear weapons programs.

France, along with Russia, Germany and China, said yesterday that they would block a joint U.S.-British U.N. resolution on the use of force against Iraq.

French Foreign Minister Dominique de Villepin told reporters in Paris on Wednesday that France "will not allow a resolution to pass that authorizes resorting to force."

"Russia and France, as permanent members of the Security Council, will assume their full responsibilities on this point," he stated.

France has been Iraq's best friend in the West. French arms sales to Baghdad were boosted in the 1970s under Premier Jacques Chirac, the current president. Mr. Chirac once called Saddam Hussein a "personal friend."

During the 1980s, when Paris backed Iraq in its war against Iran, France sold Mirage fighter bombers and Super Entendard aircraft to Baghdad, along with Exocet anti-ship missiles.

French-Iraqi ties soured after the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait that led to the 1991 Persian Gulf war.

France now has an estimated $4 billion in debts owed to it by Iraq as a result of arms sales and infrastructure construction projects. The debt is another reason U.S. officials believe France is opposing military force to oust Saddam.

Henry Sokolski, director of the private Nonproliferation Policy Education Center, said French transfers of military equipment to Iraq would have "an immediate and relevant military consequence, if this was done."

"The United States with its allies are going to suppress the Iraqi air force and air defense very early on in any conflict, and it's regrettable that the French have let a company complicate that mission," Mr. Sokolski said.

Secretary of State Colin L. Powell last month released intelligence information showing videotape of an Iraqi F-1 Mirage that had been modified to spray anthrax spores.

A CIA report to Congress made public in January stated that Iraq has aggressively sought advanced conventional arms. "A thriving gray-arms market and porous borders have allowed Baghdad to acquire smaller arms and components for larger arms, such as spare parts for aircraft, air defense systems, and armored vehicles," the CIA stated.

Iraq also has obtained some military goods through the U.N.-sponsored oil-for-food program.

A second CIA report in October on Iraq's weapons of mass destruction stated: "Iraq imports goods using planes, trains, trucks, and ships without any type of international inspections ? in violation of UN Security Council resolutions."

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Inside the deluded world of the 'human shields' Sorry, this is yesterday's news, but just too hilarious to pass up. -- JL, 19:19:58 03/03/03 Mon (pcp01376707pcs.selrsv01.pa.comcast.net/68.80.69.241)
Inside the deluded world of the 'human shields'
By Charlotte Edwards
Courtesies to www.telegraph.co.uk
Filed: 03/02/2003

'I am ashamed to be leaving you at this time of need, but I'm going out of pure, cold fear," Godfrey Meynell, 68, told the two Iraqi factory workers standing before him. His white hair was, as always, unbrushed; his navy windcheater zipped up to the chin. "This power plant is next to a bridge, surrounded by Republican Guard," he continued. "It's obviously a prime target." The men, who understood this fear too well, returned his handshake and thanked him warmly.

As he heaved his rucksack into the taxi, Mr Meynell, a former Colonial Office civil servant, was tearful. He was not, however, the only "human shield" fleeing Baghdad yesterday in a state of high emotion. Nine of the 11 British shields on the pioneering wave of red double-deckers left this weekend. At the Andalus hotel five kilometres away, Dr Abdul Hashimi, the official overseeing their mission in Iraq, had issued the shocked group with an ultimatum: deploy to the "strategic sites" hand-picked by the government or leave immediately.

It was a chilling twist in the saga of the human shields' mission to stop a war in Iraq. It was also inevitable. I accompanied the first wave of shields throughout their 3,500 mile, three-week journey aboard three double-decker buses from Europe to Baghdad and remained with them while they battled unsuccessfully with Iraqi officials to be allowed access to the civilians most thought they had come to protect.

The eccentric, eclectic group, none of whom fitted the "peacenik" stereotype, may have been drawn from all ages, backgrounds and experience, but they all shared one trait: naivety. Beset by problems on the road, lack of sufficient funds or a clear, universally-shared agenda, most had been tested beyond their limits before they even arrived in Iraq.

Among the catalogue of dramas they experienced en route were numerous breakdowns of the creaking 1967 Routemasters, bickering over the preferred route and acrimonious departures and illness.

During one cold, rainy night in Milan, we were left without our sleeping bags after an Italian went AWOL with the support bus. Later, a �500 donation from a well-wisher in Istanbul was squandered on boxes of Prozac in a misguided attempt to cheer up the war-weary Iraqi civilians.

Conspiracy theories spread like a contagion through the ranks. Whenever a puncture occurred it would be blamed on the CIA. "It's sabotage," Peter Van Dyke, 36, had whispered to a bemused mechanic as he removed a thick screw from a flat tyre in a garage outside Naples.

Sue Darling, 60, a former diplomat from Surrey, had been eager to demonstrate her civil service credentials: most importantly, she confided in one shield, she knew how to recognise a spy. Her first suspect turned out to be The Telegraph's photographer.

Little surprise then that so few were alert to the real nature of the regime that welcomed them to the Iraqi capital two weeks ago. After a propaganda lecture from Dr Hashimi, one young American told me: "It's so interesting to hear what is really going on in this country." He scoffed at any suggestion that their good intentions might be misused by Saddam's regime: "All we have seen here is continuous kindness and hospitality."

Bruce, a 24-year-old Canadian wearing a T-shirt saying "I don't want to die", was one of a group of tanned young men who were drafted into protect a grain store. Initially, he, like others, had concerns about the sites, which included an oil refinery, a water purification plant and electricity stations. He was won over when the Iraqis provided televisions, VCRs, telephones and a Play Station.

"Dr Hashimi has explained that we help the population more by staying in the 'strategic sites'," he explained. His friend added: "We play football in the afternoons and the Iraqis bring us cartons of cigarettes. It's just like summer camp."

Not all the sites were as welcoming. Daniel Pepper, a 22-year-old student from Pennsylvania, was not fooled by the oil refinery, despite the comfortable beds with parcels of goodies laid out on the pillows. "The people staying there sleep 50 yards from stacks billowing black smoke." he said. "And it's sinister: 20 minders are there for eight shields. There are three security gates, including one manned by plain-clothed guards carrying AK47s. Most shields want to get out of there and go to the granary.

"We need to negotiate with Dr Hashimi about this." Any negotiations with the Iraqi official, however, would undoubtedly be met with a frosty reception.

The Iraqi government has invested an estimated �10,000 to provide free food and hotel accommodation to the 200 shields and have lost patience with their dithering. It could be argued that this confusion is as much the fault of their leaders as the Iraqi government. On the bus, Sue Darling, who was in touch with Dr Hashimi, had told the shields they would stay with families or in schools, hospitals and orphanges.

"As a former diplomat, I should deal with the Iraqi officials. I speak their language," she said. Once in Baghdad, Ms Darling, who had traded her red puffa-jacket and walking boots for smart suits and Jackie O glasses, quickly acquiesced to the demands of the regime and moved into the granary.

Kevin and Helen Williams, a soft-spoken couple from Wales, were baffled by this volte-face: "We always understood that human shield meant a shield of humans and that we would be allowed to work with Iraqi civilians. Why it is being interpreted differently now?"

Others acted on their suspicions and left without a word. Adele Peers, a 23-year-old special needs teacher from Liverpool, and Peter Van Dyke, a therapist from Portsmouth, left for Jordan three days ago after the Iraqis reneged on a promise to allow them to work with children.

Not everyone was upset by the latest turn in events. Ken O'Keefe, 33, the founder of the human shields movement who served as a US marine during the Gulf war, had always planned to protect Iraqi "installations" should bombs rain down on the capital.

During the journey, the heavily-tattooed O'Keefe, who earned the title "black Ken" on account of his penchant for the colour and outlook on life, had alienated his companions who felt he had developed both a death wish and a messiah complex. Prone to tantrums and mood swings, his credibility had not been helped by the fact that he had, for much of the journey, been accompanied by his mother, Pat.

In Baghdad, Ken came into his own. Dressed in a thick, grey dishdash, he took to ambushing me in the Andalus corridors to brief me on his latest soundbites. "Dark forces have worked against me," he said, "but I have survived. My mission is hard core, in-your-face activism."

O'Keefe's nemesis was Joe Letts, 52, a former television cameraman from Dorset and the owner of the two red buses. Dressed in his fawn duffle coat and a ragged, bright jersey, the Glastonbury Festival regular devoted his unswaying optimism to propelling the convoy to Baghdad regardless of O'Keefe's absence.

"We will stop the war," he would tell me cheerfully everyday. "If that doesn't happen, I'm taking my buses back to London - with a detour via the vineyards of Lebanon."

It was precisely this attitude that enraged the militant O'Keefe, who yesterday waved aside any talk of the exodus affecting his mission. "They have a soft, fluffy attitude to activism," he muttered. "We are better off without them."

While the group visibly "radicalised" once in Iraq, Godfrey remained charming and affable. One afternoon, Sue Darling posted an angry message on the Andalus hotel noticeboard: "Can whoever stole my bag of nuts, sultanas and dried bananas, please return them. They are my emergency rations". Godfrey scrawled below: "Sue, I can let you have some of my prunes. If it would help."

Back at the Andalus hotel yesterday, the British contingent who arrived on the red double-decker buses were packing up to leave, their faces chalk-white with exhaustion.

Closeby Erdogan Erikci, a 25-year-old who had never before left his village in Turkey, was telling Turkish CNN that he planned to stay: "I have a message for my mum," he told the camera, "You should be proud of me, I am a human shield. "

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Replies:
- I just want to know how they got on the invitation list to be a shield. Did you hear about the human shield who told reporters that he brought his dog along to be a human shield also? [I didn't make that up!] (NT) -- SurveyGuy (why does the Marxist term "useful idiots" come to mind?), 21:41:27 03/03/03 Mon
  - Yes, I do recall the dog story. And the cries of 'Free Gustavo!' emanating from the hateful right. Where was PETA? (NT) -- JL, 19:12:51 03/05/03 Wed
Streisand's probing mind -- Vincent from UD, not Florida, 18:03:54 02/14/03 Fri (NoHost/205.147.242.4)
The Questions below were taken from Barbara Streisand's website. What a deep thinker. Can anybody possibly supply an answer to her questions. Pick one or two and comment.

Some Questions to Think About...

I wrote these questions in September, 2002, but never put them on my website. I think they are still relevant questions and are worth considering:

1. How many body bags does the military expect to send home to America?

2. What is the cost of the war in billions of dollars? One advisor to the president estimates the war would cost up to $200 billion, but he was quickly replaced by a more conservative successor.

3. Are there estimates for how long American troops would have to stay there? Are they remotely realistic? A lot of knowledgeable people predict a very long and expensive haul.

4. What are the costs in civilian lives and social and environmental destruction (i.e. is Saddam going to burn oil fields again)?

5. How much of this war is about oil?

6. How much of this war is a vendetta against "the man who tried to kill my dad"?

7. Why now? For 11 years (without attacking the United States) Saddam Hussein has been defying U.N. resolutions, as many countries have. Since writing these questions last September, the international community is now faced with a prime example of this situation, with North Korea defying multilateral nuclear proliferation treaties. The Bush administration�s response has been a policy of containment. Why the double standard? Could this be because North Korea doesn�t have oil?

8. If we preemptively attack Iraq, will Iraq strike Israel who will then retaliate, leading to the Arab world responding, which will set off the powder keg in the entire Middle East and will disrupt the continuity of some Arab nations Mr. Bush counts among his allies?

9. Is there really an alliance between Iraq and Al Qaeda, since one society is secular and one is fundamentalist? (I've read that bin Laden had issued a Fatwa calling Hussein an apostate who needs to be destroyed.)

10. What is the responsibility of a powerful nation to follow the rule of international law? ... We should be setting an example for the rest of the world.

11. Will Hussein give weapons of mass destruction to Al Qaeda? (I�ve read Hussein would be afraid to ... because if Al Qaeda obtained weapons of mass destruction, one of their first targets would be Iraq).

12. What will be the increased terrorist threat to the United States as a result of going to war with Iraq?

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Replies:
- Someone with initials B.S. has a little too much tie on her hands and spends a lot of time wringing them. These are the propaganda questions provided to her. She probably forgot and thinks she thought of them. What a waste of time. (NT) -- SurveyGuy, 18:59:17 02/14/03 Fri
- lemme take a shot....
  Why the double standard? Could this be because North Korea doesn?t have oil?
  NO, it's because N. Korea has nukes, which will result in far maor nasty body bags.... (NT) -- H_Bergeron, 00:53:21 02/15/03 Sat
  - That's right - only attack weaker countries, it's safer (NT) -- Ahmed, 04:20:34 03/03/03 Mon
- How much of this war is about oil? \r\n \r\n
  Venezuela's about oil...and Iraq would be less about oil
  if it wasn't for your SUV driving, "public radio and private everything else" half-caf latte liberal friends.... (NT) -- H_Bergeron, 00:58:36 02/15/03 Sat
  - I think BS should read what Tom Wolfe and Truman Capote wrote about actors shooting their mouths off. These people are dumber than dirt. (NT) -- Vincent, 10:59:22 02/15/03 Sat
- Hasn't that f-in' plane with her and Baldwin, Sarandon, Asner, Farrell, O'Donnell, Glover, etc. left yet? (NT) -- pat (still around...), 13:31:04 02/20/03 Thu
  - Hi there, pat! Was just asking myself that very question the past 700+ days. Plane's gotta be full by now. What's the holdup? (NT) -- JL, 14:19:51 02/22/03 Sat
    - Security checks in the airport, I'd guess... (NT) -- Spock, 13:20:17 02/25/03 Tue
New information regarding possible attack on US soil -- William, 12:56:54 02/27/03 Thu (cache-mtc-ah04.proxy.aol.com/64.12.96.169)
Fellow forum readers,

The following text was culled from an Islamic web site and translated and posted at MEMRI (Middle East Media Research Institute).

MEMRI is an organization which monitors Middle Eastern and Islamic communications and provides translations, and other information. It includes such information as translations of sermons broadcast via radio and mosques as well as other means of communication such as tapes, video tapes, and internet postings.

Many of these transmissions include exhortations to the faithful to lie to infidels, Jews, US citizens and members of the Western civilizations, and also to launch violent attacks and kill citizens of Western civilization, culture, or countries, including non-religious as well as those with religious affiliations, such as Christians, Jews, and others, as well as US citizens, Israelis, etc.

Below is a recent posting which suggests plans to launch another attack against the United States of America. The rest of this text is self explanatory.

The original article can be found at MEMRI Special alert number 7, February 26, 2003

An Imminent Terrorist Attack
by MEMRI (Middle East Media Research Institute) http://www.memri.org/
February 27, 2003

On February 24th, an Islamist website, www.alfjr.com (1) - published a religious exhortation containing text announcing an imminent terror attack, apparently to take place in the U.S. The author signed the announcement by the moniker "The Prince of Philosophy." The message also appeared on the Islamist website www.arabforum.net (as copied from alfjr.com). On several occasions in the exhortation, the author claims that the attack is imminent ("the train of death is on its way... nothing will stop its riders") and that only an order from their commander is needed before the attack is carried out. Two pictures of bin Laden were added to the exhortation, one with an image of the World Trade Center in flames, hinting, possibly, to an Al-Qa'ida connection. The following is the main part of the exhortation:

'Here is Victory Appearing on the Horizon... Here is the Dawn of Islam'

"Allah Akbar [Allah is the greatest], Allah Akbar. Here is victory appearing in the horizon."

"Allah Akbar, here is the dawn of Islam that has arrived to bring an end to the night of unbelief, collaboration [with foreign powers], and hypocrisy."

"Allah Akbar, die with your anger, oh herds of error. Allah Akbar, die with your wrath, oh gangs of [unjust Muslim] rulers. Allah Akbar, oh slaves: all of you are big slaves and small slaves, you and your masters."

"Your shrouds are woven with gun powder and smoke, and your coffins are shells of fire and spearheads."

"There is no rescue, nor escaping the earth, with all of its width and length [it] belongs to our Lord, the skies and their horizons belong to our Lord. You have nothing, oh slaves of the cross and slaves of the Dirham and Dinnar [currency used in the Arab world]."

'Our Dead Go to Paradise and Yours Go to Hell... Rejoice, Oh Lovers of the Hur [i.e. the Black-Eyed Virgins of Paradise] and the Gardens [of Paradise]'

"Allah is our ally and you have no ally. Our dead go to Paradise and yours go to Hell, and how bad is their fate."

"Allah Akbar. It is Paradise, a paradise as wide as the whole skies and earth. Rejoice, oh lovers of the Hur [i.e., the black-eyed virgins of Paradise] and the gardens [of Paradise]"

"Allah Akbar, it is the clear victory and the great triumph [promised by Allah]. By Allah, if you knew what I know, you would laugh much and you would go to your trenches crying with extreme joy, while you carry your arms."

"Allah Akbar, here are the heroic soldiers of the Truth. They have taken their positions and raised their swords and they shielded themselves with the protection and support of Allah."

"Here Are the Lions Ready to Set Out, Waiting to Hear the [Battle Cry] 'Allah Akbar' Coming from their Commander"

"Allah Akbar. Here are the lions ready to set out, waiting to hear the [battle cry] 'Allah Akbar' coming from their commander, to assault with speed, with the heat of a volcano, and the bombardment of thunders."

"Allah Akbar, how long was the dark night, its darkness will no longer besiege us."

"Oh the raiders for Allah, hurry on your way to crush this unbelief, oh the raiders for Allah."

'The People of Islamic Lands... Have Left to Encounter the Enemy'

"Allah Akbar, oh the people of Islamic lands, your brethren have left to encounter the enemy with firm resolve and conviction of victory, Allah willing."

"You should offer supplications. Continue with [supplications] and do not stop. Do not stop asking Allah's forgiveness and recite His name, so that victory should come from Him,"

"Oh lions of Islam, may our appointed time be tonight and every night in the prayer niches of the Exalted One so that we align our feet before Allah, He who has all power, kingship, and greatness."

'The Coming Blows... Meet the Enemy Inside His Own Home [Country]'

"We beseech Him and humble ourselves before Him and implore Him to direct the coming blows [right to the targets] and to protect our brethren who went out to meet the enemy inside his own home [country]."

'It is Only a Matter of a Few Days, a Little More'

"You, our brethren, be firm and keep the path and hide in waiting and prostration [as in prayer] for it is only a matter of a few days, a little more than ten or less until we hear the cry announcing to us the good tidings of Allah's victory [coming] by the hands of our brethren, the Jihad fighters. This is a serious matter and not a joke."

'The Operations Have Already Been Set and the Lions Have Taken their Positions'

"The operations have already been set and the lions have taken their positions and everything is complete. They are only waiting for permission from the heroic commander."

"Whatever the enemy may do, he will never be able, Allah willing, to thwart anything. The brigades for the main missions are ready. They are supported by their brethren, members of the supporting brigades and the reserve brigades. The alternative plans are ready."

"Hence, whatever the enemy of Allah may do, he shall not be able to harm us, Allah willing."

'The Train of Death is on its Way'

"The train of death is on its way. Its riders are steadfast. Nothing will stop them or turn them back, Allah willing, from the goal: neither the bushes of the enemy nor his weeds, neither his reptiles [nor] his lizards will stop its progress."

"There is no force or advancement, except from Allah, the All-Powerful..."

"It is only a matter of a few days so be patient. We will come out and announce to you the news of the great victory."

"And so I repeat: supplications, supplications, supplications, supplications to Allah..."

"We implore Allah, to protect them [the Jihad fighters]... and to take away from them [the enemies'] hearing and sight."

'Oh Allah, This is America... Destroy it and Shake it and All who Walk in its Line'

"Oh Allah, this is America... destroy it and shake it and all who walk in its line and entrenches with it... There is no god but you, the exalted..."

Endnote:
(1)http://www.alfjr.com/showthread.php?s=53b79d480414980d0db52c9247aadcd8&threadid=135372, February 24, 2003. According to Networksolutions, www.alfjr.com is registered to AlFajr, located in Paris, France. DomainValet Support Department, located in Bellevue, Washington, is listed as the website's technical contact.

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Replies:
- Scary. That any nation with such bloodlust as their MO has survived to this day is even scarier. I like the current trend of rhetoric, that we are liberating Iraq much more than we are going to war with it. But I'd like to know how ANY Muslim can defend that theirs is a "peaceful" religion anymore? (NT) -- Spock, 13:14:55 02/27/03 Thu
  - Which nation? -- Chris Henry, 02:51:39 03/03/03 Mon
Lobar pnuemonia -- Lucia Hall, 10:19:01 03/02/03 Sun (host213-122-187-58.in-addr.btopenworld.com/213.122.187.58)
Is it a forgone conclusion that if you have this disease you will die,this is the verdict I was given for my daughter who died.I tried to sue for negligence as she was turned away from hospital twice and her own doctor said it was just panic attacks? I really need some answers

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Replies:
- That is what malpractice attorneys are for. A political opion page would not seem to be a good place to get such advice. The only adive i have is document, document, document and engage an attorney who specializes in such suits. Click Here for the Google Search Results (NT) -- SG (wondering why people with serious medical problems keep posting here and then never return to see if there's a response), 13:39:04 03/02/03 Sun
Buh-bye Phil Donahue -- SurveyGuy, 22:35:05 02/25/03 Tue (maxtnt06-156.phlpa.fast.net/209.92.241.156)
Mr. Donahue seems to be a decent human being, for a knee-jerk liberal. I actually tried to watch his dreadful show. About 2 minutes maximum was all that I could take. Less when he went into his high and mighty act.

I think that the public is generally more wise to the shenanigans that he could get away with in the "old days." Now that shrill, phoney indignation is just offensive. That is why he is gone in my opinion. That is why those liberals who follow him will meet the same fate in that genre unless they have something of substance to offer.

Any other thoughts on this or related stuff? Then there's Dan Rather ....

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Replies:
- Donahue doesn't seem to be a decent human being to me. However, I DO think he would make a terrific human shield. Rather is done. What a disgusting display of ass-kissing (sorry SG and Surf). My nieces could have come up with tougher questions. They are 12, 8, and 3. (NT) -- JL, 18:55:17 02/27/03 Thu
- We have not subscribed to cable or satellite television at our home and consequently we do not have access to the Phil Donahue Show. Nevertheless I did not miss him. It appears that he had no competition in his first run and hence, was the only show in town and appeared to be a success. Now that there are other options, he bites the dust. Frankin will probably die on the vine as well. He is dry, not humorous, self righteous, and wrong on many of his claims that I have heard him make. (NT) -- William, 04:27:44 02/28/03 Fri
- He takes a false premise or accusation and runs with it as if he is making political commentary and humor simultaneously. As a result it comes of as if he passed gas after eating something foul. In other words, it stinks! (NT) -- William, 04:28:46 02/28/03 Fri
Then again, they just might learn to like that music ... -- SurveyGuy, 18:53:19 02/16/03 Sun (maxtnt05-269.phlpa.fast.net/209.92.100.15)
Bus station plays jazz to drive teenagers away

A bus station in America is planning to play classical music and smooth jazz to discourage loitering teenagers.

Officials at the Trade Street in Charlotte, North Carolina, hope the "grow-up" music will irritate groups of youths who hang around the station.

The station's loudspeakers already emit the calls of hawks and owls to frighten away pigeons that roost in the rafters.

"The idea is to make the atmosphere at the Trade Street station less pleasant for those who aren't there to catch a bus," a spokeswoman told the Charlotte Observer.

"We know if we play a certain genre, people won't want to hang around."

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Replies:
- Works for me. (NT) -- JL, 23:11:29 02/20/03 Thu
- Now if we can just find music to play so Muslim extremists won't want to hang around ... or politicians .... or some other undesirable group. Think of the research possibilities and potential applications. (NT) -- SurveyGuy (with tongue in cheek), 22:06:09 02/21/03 Fri
  - Islamofascists - how about anything from 'Fiddler on the Roof'? Politicians - need to give this more thought, but perhaps songs that mention the words 'truth' and 'honesty'? (NT) -- JL, 13:51:05 02/22/03 Sat
    - "Call me....irresponsible..." (NT) -- Spock (channeling Frank Sinatra [I think]), 13:15:31 02/25/03 Tue
A good idea or a scary one? -- SurveyGuy, 11:28:54 02/18/03 Tue (maxtnt05-727.phlpa.fast.net/209.92.101.219)
http://news.com.com/2010-1071-984792.html
Perspective: Closer to a national ID plan?
By Declan McCullagh February 17, 2003, 4:00 AM PT

WASHINGTON--A little-known company called EagleCheck is hoping to provide a standardized identity check technique that governments and corporations will use to verify that you are who you claim to be.

EagleCheck, a privately held firm in Cleveland proposes that whenever someone uses a driver's license or a passport for identity verification, the ID's authenticity will be checked through EagleCheck's network that is tied to state motor vehicle and federal databases. The databases will respond by saying whether the ID is valid.

I ran into David Akers, EagleCheck's president, last week in a Senate office building where he was hawking his system to a crowd of politicians understandably nervous about Threat Level Orange, Osama bin Laden, and possible terrorist attacks sparked by a loominginvasion of Iraq. Stacked on a table were brochures warning in stark crimson letters that "EagleCheck could have flagged" 14 of the 19 terrorists who hijacked planes on Sept. 11, 2001, because some had used expired visas and stolen passports.

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Replies:
- Am I crazy, or don't these documents have expiration dates and/or photos on them? Maybe if the people checking the documents could speak, read, and write our language this lunacy would not be necessary. Add in a huge dose of prolfiling and we would at least be better off than we are now and before. Let's try that old standard of FULLY using the data we already have. Non-citizens can and should be held to different standards. (NT) -- JL, 13:42:46 02/22/03 Sat
  - You've broken the code! Why hire people who can recognize and expired document when a multi-million dollar system, fsar more complex than that, can be introduced? Consider how welll emmissions inspections are cleaning the air in PA. Bureaucratic Motto: Always appear to be doing something, whether it will work or not. (NT) -- SurveyGuy, 13:03:13 02/24/03 Mon
Wonder if we can get these on cable? -- Spock, 11:31:04 02/24/03 Mon (user-vc8fm1s.biz.mindspring.com/216.135.216.60)
IRAQI TV GUIDE

SUNDAY:
0800 - My 33 Sons
0830 - Osama Knows Best
0900 - I Dream of Mohammed
0930 - Let's Mecca Deal
1000 - The Kabul Hillbillies

MONDAY:
0800 - Husseinfeld
0900 - Mad About Everything
0930 - Monday Night Stoning
1000 - Win Bin Laden's Money
1030 - Allah McBeal

TUESDAY:
0800 - Wheel of Terror
0830 - The Price is Right if Osama Says it's Right
0900 - Children are Forbidden from Saying the Darndest Things
0930 - Taliban's Wackiest Public Execution Bloopers
1000 - Buffy the Yankee Imperialist Dog Slayer

WEDNESDAY:
0800 - Beat the Press
0830 - When Kurds Attack
0900 - Two Guys, a Girl, and Pita Bread
0930 - Just Shoot Everyone
1000 - Veilwatch

THURSDAY:
0800 - Fatima Loves Chachi
0830 - M*U*S*T*A*S*H
0900 - Veronica's Closet Full of Long, Black, Shapeless Dresses and Veils
0930 - Married with 139 Children
1000 - Eye for an Eye Witness News

FRIDAY:
0800 - Judge Saddam
0830 - Suddenly Sanctions
0900 - Who Wants to Marry a Terrorist Millionaire?
0930 - Cave and Garden Television
1000 - No-Witness News

SATURDAY:
0800 - Spongebob Squareturban
0830 - Who's Koran Is It Anyway?
0900 - Teletalibans
0930 - Camel 54, Where Are You?
1000 - Survival - Baghdad

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