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Monday, April 20, 0:17:03

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• I think this exchange is particularly enlightening in view of the many John hater's out there in the world. As we have dicussed (when talking about having a LJ board) many women don't appreciate John's feelings for Jaime and get jelouse on Claire's behalf, or think it is an ugly obsession. But it is just love. Do they feel this way about Tom's feelings for Claire (NT) -- Oleander, 09:33:35 02/04/08 Mon
  • I will say though I am not a "John hater" I don't quite see all his actions in the noble light that so many of you do, and this is the perfect example. I don't see raising Willie as a great sacrifice and upheaval-its actually, as i've said before, Isobel who sacrifices all chance to be loved or have a spouse who actually desires her without even being able to make that choice openly. As for John, this was a golden opportuntiy- how else could he ever have a son by the man he loved- it aint possible any other way. Think of Claire- how did she survive without Jamie all those years- by having his child to love- that's what John gets here. And in this day and age of arranged marriages- he can be absent as much as he wants- like when he goes to Jamaica and she doesn't. (NT) -- susiej, 13:02:30 02/04/08 Mon
    • I agree, susiej. I am not a "John Hater", but you most certainly summed up my feelings. I metioned this before since I do the polls over on Broch Talk. We had a poll regarding who people "liked" better: LJG or Roger. If I recall correctly, it was dead even or LJG may have won. I think there is misconception out there. He is a well loved character. Many people may not post on this board, but my feeling is that most people do like him. Myself, like you, I most certainly don't hate him. I just don't find him as compelling a character as others do. (NT) -- Rollaine, 13:14:02 02/04/08 Mon
    • and as for your original question- John is a very brave soldier- we've seen him risk his own safety for Claire- he's like that. Tom was not- he feared death and death by hanging is not quick or noble, so I do see his sacrifice as bigger and much more poignant. And had he lived- I don't see him as ever hooking up with anyone else. So yes, I see it as different than John's love for Jamie- Toms' IMO is completely selfless and nearly as great as Jamie's love for her. IMO (NT) -- susiej, 13:22:14 02/04/08 Mon
      • Wow, susiej, that's a great observation and quite true when you think about it. (NT) -- Rollaine, 13:48:32 02/04/08 Mon
    • First of all, thanks to both you and Rollaine for responding! Of course, I went long--> -- Oleander, 13:31:15 02/04/08 Mon
      • No, your post was not at all rude! I do hope you are feeling OK?? It wasn't our responses that did it-was it?? I never felt that John had perverted intentions of any sort towards Willie-never even gave it thought. But I agree with you an susiej, it was not selfless and he did it out of his love for Jamie. Me, I know that I would be jealous of anyone who I know was so in love with my DH. I find it odd that people would not understand Claire's jealousy-even if there is no chance of any relationship. But Jamie & John are friends and do share a specail bond through Willie. I would find it quite disconcerting to have this person in his life and raising his child. A son no less, in a time when I think we can agree more value was placed on sons. I always thought that got under Claire's skin a bit. But, that could be me projecting my own feelings again. I have a nasty habit of doing that! (NT) -- Rollaine, 13:47:06 02/04/08 Mon
        • Well, I think we all do that to some degree- bring our own experiences/feelings to our reading and that's why we are such devoted readers, we get into it. That's why I obsess over Isobel so much more than everyone else. I have a friend who was married to a man for 16 years who after their second child basically stopped having sex with her- it happened once a year. He won't admit it but she now believes he's gay. Well, those years were very hard on her- she tried everything and ended up thinking it was her- she was so skinny, had gotten braces, plastic surgery- and she was very pretty to begin with. I thought of her and cringed when John told Jamie he "could do the deed." I had always liked John and I still do but that irked me. It just didn't seem fair to her. Not that we're always fair, but I don't see this action as somehow great and noble. Running out with his sword to protect Claire- that almost evened the score. *g* (NT) -- susiej (), 14:49:39 02/04/08 Mon
          • Yes, I agree about John. I, too, always felt bad for Isobel. Kind of wondered what her story was. We really don't know do we? Unless you all have some insights on her from the LJ series (I have not read it). We don't see her side nor hear too much about or from her. Like your friend, I get the same feeling from Frank. I kind of cringe whenever I hear how honorable and great he is. My parents marriage ended due to my father's infidelity-it devasted her. My experience does not allow me to see Frank as a great guy. So yes, we do bring our own experiences to our reading and can feel things differently than what the author may intend. (NT) -- Rollaine, 16:08:52 02/04/08 Mon
          • OK...I know this must sound awful, but please remind about the sword episode?? I don't re-read the books like you all do (yes, I know I should hang my head in shame :-), wish I had more time), but I really don't remember this! Thanks! (NT) -- Rollaine, 18:41:18 02/04/08 Mon
            • he's recovering from measles- a very dangerous disease in that time- and the big old German guy who scalped the Indian women comes to the house as Claire steps outside. John rushes out with his sword though he can barely stand. And then he speaks German so that the two of them can communicate and he tells Claire what the guy says. (NT) -- susiej, 07:45:10 02/05/08 Tue
              • OK, I remember now. I thought he grabbed a pistol...or maybe Claire grabbed the pistol? Neverless, I do recall it now. Thanks! (NT) -- Rollaine, 09:48:47 02/05/08 Tue
    • I feel as if I need to, once again, step up and say that I agree with susiej and Rollaine. I know we are in the minority here. (NT) -- GwenM, 14:35:21 02/04/08 Mon
    • Isobel was older when she chose to marry John. She was the guardian of a young child who was an heir to a great fortune, her own parents only surviving heir. I am pretty sure she would have had ample opportunity to marry elsewhere if she had chosen to. John had been a visitor to her household practically all her life. He was handsome, educated, titled, wealthy in his own right, and most of all has a wonderful sense of humor. Isobel accepted him immediately. Leading me to believe she was waiting for him, wanted him. Knowing John, you know he would have done all he could to make himself the best husband he could be, resigning his commission and I assume his preferences as well, and devoting himself to her. I am pretty sure John would have made a better than average husband for the times. I don't imagine Isobel came with any preconceived notions about how sex should be and was as satisfied as she expected to be. (NT) -- Jane, 15:47:07 02/04/08 Mon
      • Oh, Jane! You almost had me until that "waiting for him, wanting him" bit- that makes it sad!!! He'll never want her. OK- scratch that line and its all fine. *g* (NT) -- susiej, 16:01:34 02/04/08 Mon
        • Susie, I don't know how you feel about spoilers but I have a couple of Isobel related ones from Scottish prisoner I think you should read if you don't hate them. Send me your email address and I'll send them on my address is malty_mom2003@yahoo.com (NT) -- Jane, 18:12:02 02/04/08 Mon
          • You know, I actually discussed this a little with Herself over on Compuserve and she hinted that I don't really know what goes on in the bedroom with the two of them - so I think I see where your going and I appreciate the offer, but yes, I do avoid spoilers. Remember- i told you once that because I do so many rereads in my life, I like to be surprised when i can be which is why I am loving the Lymond Chronicles. Dunnet tricks me again and again!!!! She's amazing. (NT) -- susiej, 08:01:57 02/05/08 Tue
            • True, but the fact is, he will never love her. He can "perform" as he says, he may love her as a friend, respect her, but he will NEVER love her in a way a husband can love a wife. And to me, there is an element of sadness to that. Strange though, John can love Jamie, but can NEVER have him. There seems to be quite a bit of unrequited love in these books. Tom Chrisite, John, maybe Isobel, Frank in a way...gee now I'm getting depressed! (NT) -- Rollaine, 09:54:45 02/05/08 Tue
              • I do believe John loved her in his own way, not like any of us would expect our husbands to love us in this day, but real love none the less. Doubtless more than many men of his class loved wives from arranged marriages that were so common at the time. She could have done much worse..anyone recall Mary Hawkin's Viscount? It was obvious to John that she and her mother needed someone to help the father run the estate even if Willie didn't need a father. I don't think Isobel would have settled for anyone else, it was her choice, nobody forced her. Some BOB bits of info that you perhaps haven't read about John and Isobel's relationship inside. -- Jane, 19:26:53 02/05/08 Tue
                • Isobel had her own parent's close marriage as an example and no doubt hoped for the same. I think John has true affection for her which is more than could be said of some societal marriages, he also had his parent's marriage and Benedicta's current marriage of affection as well as Hal and Minnie for examples. We don't know yet what happens to John over the next couple of years that make him decide to give up the army life. Yes, he gains a son by the man he loves but he certainly wasn't in a hurry to take up that role or else he might have married Isobel sooner. (NT) -- kgp, 05:37:11 02/06/08 Wed
                  • AND he didn't do it till he knew Jamie was leaving! He wasn't interested in living there as Isobel's husband when Jamie was there. (NT) -- Jane, 15:31:11 02/12/08 Tue
  • There is a bit of a difference...Tom is not raising one of Claire's children. Jamie had a son with another woman-a son who looks remarkably like him (w/out the red hair!) and he is being rasied by a man who she knows is very much in love with her husband. I think its a perfectly natural human reaction to be jealous-regardless if it is a man or woman. John is also portrayed in a very different way than Tom Christie. John is certainly a more sympathetic character. Most of us really didn't like Christie until we realized he loved Claire and made the ultimate sacrfice for her. We didn't know his feelings and he hid them, esp from Jamie. John does not hide his feelings for Jamie from Claire. Quite different...JMHO (NT) -- Rollaine, 13:20:59 02/04/08 Mon
    • Tom hid his feelings FROM CLAIRE. He NEVER touched her hand, nor spoke of it to her. That's ANOTHER difference 'tween the two. (NT) -- GwenM, 14:38:21 02/04/08 Mon