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Monday, April 20, 8:02:44

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• so well put! You are right, too often people don't have the delicacy or subtlety for many awkward situations. BTW you cracked me up with the top-ten comment! (NT) -- Oleander, 12:42:32 10/22/07 Mon
  

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• I do believe that John and Jamie were honestly friends at Ardsmuir right up until "the pass". I think Jamie felt a serious lack after all those years in a cave and then stuck in prison with men who, while he loved them and cared for them, were not his equals. Jamie was hungry for someone he could talk to as an equal. Remember the time he was walking with Major Macdonald and ran into Brown and a bunch of rebels and he cursed himself for his "love of conversation" that had brought about this meeting kicking himself because they were "discussing poetry!"? I think the meetings with John filled a huge need in Jamie and their friendship was genuine. Some part of Jamie must have wanted that back enough for him to overlook what he saw as a flaw in John's personality later at Helwater. Jamie really had nobody there that could fill that need either, he must have been heartbreakingly lonely. (NT) -- Jane, 06:20:56 10/23/07 Tue
  • I agree completely Jane. In spite of the barriers between prisoner and jailer, before "the pass", there was genuine mutual admiration and friendship. And Jamie recognized his own need for intellectual stimulation and camaraderie. Didn't Jamie also remember everything about meeting John at age 16, and that he'd thought him quite a brave, if naive enough to be fooled, lad even then? (NT) -- pamelalass, 07:02:14 10/23/07 Tue
    • Yes - and thanked him for what he tried to do to save Claire's honor. He was a brave lad who deserved to think he was good enough to kill. (NT) -- kgp, 07:42:45 10/23/07 Tue
    • I have a question about hte pass...--> -- Oleander, 09:10:50 10/23/07 Tue
      • I don't think Jamie was tempted so much as revulsed. It is my impression he claimed the Tartan as a way to completely sever the relationship with John, to be sure John understood the gulf between them. By reminding John of his prisoner status it is then John's duty to care for him honorably. Pressuring a sexual relationship would be bad form. As to Jamie being tempted, he assures Claire during a discussion of men in prison using each other or going mad he asserts quite vehemently that he was never tempted to turn to another man no matter how he yearned for physical contact. Jamie's reaction to John's hand on his was so immediate and violent I don't think there was ever even a moment of temptation even for relief from the company of the other Scots. He'd rather be an honorable prisoner than gain priviledges through any means. His dinners with Harry and John were seen by the others as his due because he was their chief and it was then that he spoke for them.. (NT) -- kgp, 09:34:14 10/23/07 Tue
        • See, I totally agree with that. But on my last re read of Voyager, one sentence stood out to me, and took me by surprise. Shoot I wish I had my book with me, i'd go find it ;) oh well, ill post it later! (NT) -- Oleander, 11:14:45 10/23/07 Tue
          • Karen or anyone else - do you remember when this came up a while back, and there was discussion of this same question? It centered on the same word - - "temptation" - - which makes me think there must indeed be something in the text to suggest it. I don't have it to hand, but I vaguely remember reading something where Jamie confesses that he was tempted at Ardsmuir not by John specifically, and not truly sexually, but by the thought that others around him had given in to sexual frustration and temptation, and he was suffering a vast craving for the touch of a human hand. I also think he was harsh on himself for having ever given in to the temptation to enjoy the evenings he did spend with John, while his men were caged in the cell. He must have wished he had held himself completely aloof. Although he was living in a cell with them, he was isolated from the men because of his leadership and care for the group as a whole. >>>> -- pamelalass, 14:42:48 10/23/07 Tue
            • Oh, glory, I can't remember exactly where but he is explaining it to Claire and talking about how he imagines Christ must have felt, apart from the others, longing to be touched. All those years and no one would even consider a casual touch, a pat on the shoulder or nudge going out to the peat bogs. He didn't wish for sexual contact but only for human contact. (NT) -- kgp, 15:35:32 10/23/07 Tue
              • It's the passage in which he thinks of the painting of Christ, the Sacred Heart, and says that the painter must have understood Christ's loneliness. I think it's in ABoSaA but wouldn't swear to it. Anybody? (NT) -- CatherineM., 17:42:11 10/23/07 Tue
                • It is, I think also in context of explaining Tom Christie to Claire. (NT) -- kgp, 19:13:35 10/23/07 Tue
            • I think what John said about the flogging in DOA was really telling.... "but that was not enough for him; he wished a final severance. And so he deliberately brought about an occasion so drastic that it must alter our relation irrevocably and prevent any chace of a friendship between us." (NT) -- Jane, 15:36:54 10/23/07 Tue
          • Oleander - I think I found your reference . It is just after the flogging. I read it as the temptation not of flesh but to rise above prisoner status and accept what little luxuries there were in Ardsmuir, the temptation of priviledge rather than flesh. Prior to this he had been struggling withthe transition from the Governor's quarters back to the cell and the other Scots. John relieved him of the dichotomy of his existence.>>> -- kgp, 05:43:09 10/24/07 Wed
            • THank you! Yes this is the passage that I was thinking of. And I think you are right, about the temptation to rise above his prisoner status, to have wanted to be friends with John and speak to him as an equal. (NT) -- Oleander, 06:17:09 10/24/07 Wed
            • Yes! That's it -- he was tempted just to get some measure of relief from the burden of care for all those men in the cell, and the weary, cold, aching discomfort of it. (NT) -- pamelalass, 07:19:48 10/24/07 Wed
  • Sorry Jane, I have to disagree with you here. Not that you're wrong, *G* it's just that my definition of friendship includes so much more than good conversation with an equally intelligent person. Jamie and LJG may have found hundreds of interesting topics to discuss, but I believe it simply gave them both a small way to "escape" prison-life and to forget they were both being punished. They weren't friends at this point. You have to be able to trust a friend, and there's no way Jamie could trust LJG with anything that might endanger his family. And how could you possibly be friends with someone who holds the power and control of your life and freedom? (NT) -- MelvaT, 13:27:03 10/23/07 Tue
    • Interesting! It does depend on the definition of friendship, and you are right about the issue of trust and the completely unbalanced power dynamic. I sometimes think that they both recognized that John's "control" over Jamie was nominal since they acknowledged each other as men of honor, and that the whole tartan/beating episode was one way for Jamie to demonstrate that he is master of his own fate. In any case, I think although they were constrained from being actual friends, there was something more than just passing the time. I guess I felt that there was an unpsoken acknowledgment that they might actually have been friends had the circumstances been otherwise. But perhaps I used the word "friendship" too casually above -- there was some kind of mutual recognition and connection, but it was completely limited, first by their relative stations, and then by John's ill-advised overture. (NT) -- pamelalass, 14:27:25 10/23/07 Tue
      • I think there was respect, liking and a mutual sense of what could be under other circumstances. Under the circumstance, they were as companionable as they were going to be. (NT) -- kgp, 15:38:07 10/23/07 Tue
      • Yes, there is more! Layers of more. These 2 men have gone through this balancing act of power before. In the woods, when LJG was just a teenager; Jamie treated John as an equal, a grown man. And each interaction since then has been adding to a very strong foundation for their future friendship. It's fascinating, for me, to picture this delicate dance of male-bonding. DG's grasp of human nature and behavior hits neon lights with these 2 characters. (NT) -- MelvaT, 15:51:33 10/23/07 Tue
    • Well, John obviously thought they were friends, just before the quote from DOA I posted above John said "We were friends. Then...he discovered my feelings for him. We were no longer friends." Jamie's thinking that his visits with John in prison was like life in the cave in reverse going from the "crowded, cold, squualor of the cells going to the Major's glowing suite, able for a few hours to stretch both body and mind, to relax in warmth and conversation" perhaps not a declaration of friendship but there was something about the relationship that he valued and hated to lose. (NT) -- Jane, 15:51:36 10/23/07 Tue
      • I can't resist..I posted this below inside my post about the paper written about that Jacobite Trilogy I recommended it is perfect for this friendship conversation "Gabaldon's highly entertaining historical adventures are particularly memorable for the fresh twist she gives to friendships between men, especially the convoluted friendship between the young Highland chieftain Jamie Fraser and the English soldier Lord John Grey."... "It is clear that Gabaldon has read the Trilogy; and the Fraser/Grey relationship surely owes something to Ewen Cameron and Keith Windham. Like Cameron, Gabaldon's tall redheaded hero is saved from a firing squad after Culloden by an English soldier who owes him a debt of honour; and Gabaldon looks at similar themes of friendship and allegiance." So, weird as their friendship might seem to us..we can't say it isn't a true friendship. As Jamie told Claire, "friends are where you find them." (NT) -- Jane, 16:04:50 10/23/07 Tue
      • Aye! John did think they were friends; he'd have never fooled himself into making a pass at Jamie if he didn't. All I'm trying to say is that their relationship takes a serious roller coaster ride before they both, at the same time, can say they are friends. (NT) -- MelvaT, 16:34:07 10/23/07 Tue
        • Melva, Jane, Karen, I love this discussion! I find this "convoluted" friendship immensely compelling and addictive to ponder. Jane, I just found your excerpt from the Broster thesis on the other board, and it was a great Aha! moment , re-contextualizing these two. There's this "classic" formula, with it's powerful themes of conflicted loyalties, duty, love, honor, etc., and then there's DG's rather subversive re-shaping, which does indeed infuse it with neon intensity. I just re-read their fateful meeting, when John is 16 and Jamie humiliates him, but with honor. (Thanks to WendyMF for triggering this delightful mini-reread for me!) Much will pass between them to cause anger and mistrust, yet Jamie's treatment of John with dignity created a foundation that they will eventually find their way back to, even if John first thinks he is a craven outlaw and "Scottish poltroon" and then here in BOTB we see Jamie reviling John's love for men as cowardly and base. (NT) -- pamelalass, 17:09:19 10/23/07 Tue
          • Oh, and let's not forget "unprincipled voluptuary"!! It made Jamie laugh at the time, but it's oddly ironic, since that's basically what he later thinks, and articulates, about John's involvement with Percy, and his interest in men rather than women. (NT) -- pamelalass, 17:14:44 10/23/07 Tue
            • Oh, this is much more fun than the homework I am supposed to be doing! I am wondering how much of the animosity that erupts and the trust that develops is because of the reflection each sees of himself in the other. Jamie might well have tried the same romantic heroics as John at that age. He recognizes the foolish brand of adolescent bravery. I now will go obediently back to my discussion of performance evaluations and merit increases. (shoot me, please!) (NT) -- kgp, 18:16:53 10/23/07 Tue
              • Nope, can't shoot ya. You're too much fun. :-) (NT) -- MelvaT, 18:21:29 10/23/07 Tue
    • Concerning the "definition of friendship" everybody's is different and we as individuals have different levels of friendships going on all the time. My daughter keeps telling me I need to stop ignoring my "flesh and blood friends or pretty soon you won't have any" and spending much of what little free time I have on the boards here. I tell her I need to discuss things that matter to me with intelligent like minded people, like Jamie I like to "stretch my mind". I DON'T get that from her father or my "real" friends and coworkers. I have little patience for the mundane talk about (their) kids (I could talk about mine all day but then I'd be as boring as they are LOL) and the price of gas and groceries. So, we don't really know each other, we doubtless will never meet, but I consider you my friends, and you fill a need for me that nobody else does. Friends are indeed where you find them. (NT) -- Jane, 06:08:26 10/24/07 Wed
      • Jane, you are a verra lovely friend to have, indeed, and we are all the better for it! Thanks for seeing this connection between what we're so busy talking about here, and how we find companionship, intellectual stimulation, solace, etc., here on the boards. (NT) -- pamelalass, 07:27:29 10/24/07 Wed
        • Amen to that. The Hosen Few are quite special and the discussions are far deeper and more candid than the usual co-worker lunch chats. I avoid those by coming here. (NT) -- kgp, 10:16:18 10/24/07 Wed
          • I figure if I drivel on here, people can just skip over my posts ("oh, it's her again!") and I will never be the wiser. I can pretty much say whatever is on my mind without guilt. I am always amazed (and occasionally intimidated) by how intelligent and articulate you all are, I don't believe I have ever even been tempted to skip anyone's posts myself. (NT) -- Jane, 15:08:47 10/24/07 Wed
            • Jane you never drivel on! I love reading your posts and ken exactly what you mean by intimidated. *G* I'll let y'all in on a secret. Most of the time it takes me hours to sort out a reply. I even hit the preview button several times before the send and then I'll stress over accidently offending someone. But I enjoy these discussions so much there's no way I could just lurk and keep my mouth shut for very long. Oh, I've also been told, many times, that I needed to get a 'real' life. *VBG* I just tell them I want to dip into a world of intelligent like-minded folks not a stagnate old gene pool. (NT) -- MelvaT, 18:18:23 10/24/07 Wed
              • What is this "real life" you speak of? {G} (NT) -- kgp, 18:25:26 10/24/07 Wed
                • Real life? I'm not sure. *G* I think it's that mundane stuff Jane mentions above. If your elderly mother is living with you like mine is, it equals bragging about your ailments.... hemorrhoids, arthritis, water retention, blood pressure, etc, etc. Gets a wee bit taxing to listen to after awhile. (NT) -- MelvaT, 18:52:39 10/24/07 Wed
              • Oh Melva, I can't tell you how many times I have wished that I had previewed and to my horror didn't remember to. It's not just because of the typos and awful grammar that make me look like an idiot either. Sometimes I've just plain said the wrong thing and once it's out there you can't take it back. I hurt someone's feelings on the book board once. Trust me you never get over feeling bad about it once you've done it, even if they say they forgive you, it never quite feels the same. So, thank you to the people who take the time to preview, blessed are the peace keepers, for they shall have a positive influence the hot heads like me. (NT) -- Jane, 20:14:02 10/24/07 Wed
                • I've accidently done that too. :-( (NT) -- MelvaT, 22:45:22 10/24/07 Wed
                  • I wish it had been an accident, it would have been less embarrassing if it had been. Mine was an inexcusable knee jerk reaction to an anti John/Willie comment when I was in a foul enough temper to blow up over it. (NT) -- Jane, 06:22:50 10/25/07 Thu
                    • LOL! Come to think of it, I have bitten off a few heads in defense of "my" favorite characters too. BJR, Jamie and the word love in the same sentence will still jerk both my knees over my head. :-) (NT) -- MelvaT, 09:24:33 10/25/07 Thu