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Subject: And furthermore...


Author:
Anthony
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Date Posted: 12:01:47 05/01/01 Tue
In reply to: Rodney Reel 's message, "Don't like your grades? Shoot the teacher!" on 09:09:06 05/01/01 Tue

Rod,

By the way, I totally agree that we cannot blame Eminem and Marilyn "Hanson" and video games for kids killing people. All I know is that I too played violent games and listened to some wacky shit and was teased incessantly in school for years, and I never thought of killing someone as a viable solution. There may be some kids out there that were influenced by the shit they see on TV or hear in a song, like that dumb little turd that tried to imitate the idiots on Jackass and got t-boned by his friend driving a car. But even if music and TV can influence people, it is up to parents to teach kids not to emulate TV. Then there are the people(hopefully the majority of people out there) who can divide life from music and TV and realize that they should think for themselves and not kill someone cause some androgynous prick with white and black contact lenses and a thong on tells them to kill their parents.

About the Brits, I thought I heard that gun violence was rising in the old UK, but I am not sure on that. Anyway, it could be the result of the Americanization of the world, but who knows? And do YOU really get the BBC? How do YOU really know what they are and are not running? And listen, there are more types of violence than just that involving guns. You ask "Is there a correlation between no guns and a lack of violence?" but what do you mean by violence?

I agree with the death penalty idea though. You shoot you fucking fry, or get your head lopped off and dropped into a giant plinko board so people can bet which hole it will fall into on live TV during halftime at the Superbowl ;-)

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Replies:
[> Subject: Re: Don't like your grades? Shoot the teacher!


Author:
Zisel ben
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Date Posted: 08:42:50 05/02/01 Wed

Isn't this an old post? Anyway. I agree with Anthony. The desire to use a gun to solve your problems is the source of these crimes NOT the fact that guns are sitting around someone's house. There are a million different weapons sitting around my house ranging anywhere from a pencil to a knife but I don't ponder using them. Why is that? I have no desire to.

You refer to the correlation between "no guns" and a "lack of violence" so I guess you are saying that firing a gun at someone is the only form of violence. I don't agree. No guns correlates with no gun violence, well, yeah, obviously, but I wouldn't be so naive as to say a lack of a specific type of weapon will lesson violent crimes.

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[> [> Subject: Re: Don't like your grades? Shoot the teacher!


Author:
Zisel ben
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Date Posted: 09:33:16 05/02/01 Wed

Hey, what the hell, why don't I elaborate on this?

By saying that we should eliminate weapons to solve the problem of violence--that is like saying: let's cover up women with 20 layers of fabric and hide them in houses with painted windows and not allow them to leave the house unescorted that way men will not be tempted to rape them or proposition them sexually in any way (as though they will not be taken advantage of by their own husband and his brothers and father). Or how 'bout we rip out a women's clit with a pair of rusty pliers to keep her from being unfaithful because she will lose the desire to fornicate with another man other than her husband (as though sexual tendancies are only derived from your physical being). Or maybe we should lock up criminals in massive prisons to stop them from being violent (as though they won't continue the violence inside the gates of that prison or that they will lose their desire to be violent). Want more analogies? It can be done. But I think I've made my point.

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: Don't like your grades? Shoot the teacher!


Author:
Zisel ben
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Date Posted: 09:57:40 05/02/01 Wed

Yes, here I am again, feeling quite prolific today.

Actually, I do believe it was the Bush administration that came up with this brilliant concept. They want to ban sex education in schools because they figure if kids don't know about sex they won't have the desire to engage in it. Bush and his cronies also want to eliminate abortion clinics as though women will not find a way to have an abortion without one or as though the fact that they exist creates a desire to go have one.

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[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Don't like your grades? Shoot the teacher!


Author:
Rodney Reel
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Date Posted: 10:53:38 05/02/01 Wed

I read some more stories about some tykes blasting
away at their school again (after all, its Wednesday.
Isn't that designated Shoot Up Your School Day?), so I
wanted to revisit the gun topic and try to get some debate cooking in here again. I'm not talking about violence in general. I'm talking about violence involving guns.

What purpose to guns have in society? As Anthony said, to bock before being bocked? I read somewhere that if you try to pull iron one some turd that is trying to stick you up, you have a higher chance of getting a spark put through you than if you didn't have one. I unfortunately don't have the sources in front of me to quote from, but I've heard that statistic rolled out more than a few times.

I'm sure criminals will still get guns somehow. But is
it right to say, "well, we can't control it. I know! Let's legalize it so we can collect taxes on it!"? Shhhh. Don't let Dubya hear anyone say that though. If he does, this country will have more vices for sale than a hardware store.

"I wouldn't be so naive as to say a lack of a specific type of weapon will lesson violent crimes." No? So we just ignore the problem and let people continue blasting away at each other? I read a story yesterday on Reuters that a nun was accidentially caught in a crossfire while walking down the street. A nun! Would she have gotten a shot up if there weren't guns? Would those two Columbine turds have killed a dozen or so of their classmates if they only had baseball bats or machetes? It's naive to just say, "well, we can't solve the problem and people will always get guns on the black market if they become illegal, so we'll just ignore the problem, blame it on human nature, and let people just go on killing each other. After all, if we outlaw guns, we'll put all of the companies that make the chalk that is used to make chalk outlines out of business. Why don't we make flamethrowers and anti-tank weapons legal, too? After all, people will just get the stuff on the black market, right?

Sexual and physical abuse of women is a terrible thing, but I tell you what, I'd rather have it where a man's only choice is to go Ike Turner on some girl and slap her ass down the stairs than having the readily available option of shooting her. If guns are illegal, chances are that your average law-abiding joe won't keep an illegal piece in the house. And that means that little Johnny won't come home from school pissed off because someone stole his Pokemon cards, pick up his dad's Glock, and go start firing away at people. I can't put it any clearer: guns have no productive role in society. Do each of us have to be involved in our own personal arms race where we each have to have bigger and badder guns than the next guy? People want to have guns for protection? Carry that gun around with you at all times, do ya? Or if some jackass stops you on the street for your walley, you're good enough with it that you can outdraw him and punch a hole in him before he turns you into a 6:00 news story fatality? Or if someone is in your home stealing all your shit, you'll pull out your gun and go downstairs to do battle with the guy? Like the dude from Falling Down said, "what kind of vigilante are you?"

Your women analogies make no sense. "Or how 'bout we rip out a women's clit with a pair of rusty pliers to keep her from being unfaithful because she will lose the desire to fornicate with another man other than her husband." I'm sorry, but this is the most absurd argument that I've ever had. OK, going by this analogy, a woman's clit is the gun, metaphorically speaking. The clit, as you so delicately called it, is what is driving women to be unfaithful, so following your logic, a gun is what drives these people to violence? Well, if that is the case, and since guns, unlike clits, do not serve any productive role in society, why not get rid of them? Agreed that mutilating a woman is barbaric. But isn't just going along with you life letting people continue killing each other just as barbaric? So what do we do about it? Just ignore the problem? Have you ever had some piece of shit pull iron on you? I have. And it makes you feel helpless and it sucks. Say there was a product on the market called a "bitch beater" and all it was used for was to beat women. "Damnit woman, dinner isn't ready," *blam*. Wouldn't people be clamoring to get rid of it? And people would say, "but it should be my constitutional right to have the means to beat my bitch!" "my forefathers rose up against oppression and beat their bitches, so why can't I!?" Doesn't this sound rediculous? Well, that's what guns do. They give people a means to kill each other. We can get into the whole hunting rifle argument on another day. I'm talking about your .357, Glock 9mms, and all of that good shit that people use to poke holes in each other. Violence will always persist in society. Hell, I saw that episode of Faces of Death where all the monkeys beat the other monkey to death with hammers. People are violent by nature. But guns have the sole purpose of killing people. Yes, people will still kill each other with crowbars, tire irons, knives, bats, and all that other good stuff. So that means we should just persist with letting people keep their guns? I could even agree to allow people to keep their guns, and simply enforce a death penalty punishment on people that are involved in a crime using a gun. Even if that means sticking your piece under some granny's nose for her walker and social security check. You pull a gun on a woman and rape her, electric chair (and you should have your slim jim taken off first.) I don't care if you pistol whip your mom for not letting you take the car: execution.

We all played Doom and listened to Mr Bungle when we
were growing up and I don't think any (well, most) of
us grew up to be bad people. Sure we might have that
token whack job who grows up to collect guns and runs
around screaming "you want whores?" while doing lines
of dippy do with some wanker who is so junked out that
he thinks he can fly. The FTC just released some big
paper on how television and movies and magazines and
music is rotting kids brains like pixi dust and
sody-pop rots out little Nick's teeth.

I can't give you stats about the Brits, but I actually DO check out the BBC every day, and I don't see the news stories about blokes killing each other like I do here. Maybe violence is on the rise in Jolly Ol' England and we don't hear about it since the BBC is a national news service (CNN rarely goes into every single murder across the country).

When I asked "Is there a correlation between no guns and a lack of violence?" I meant are there less gun-related deaths in countries where guns are illegal?

Cheers,
Rodney

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[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Don't like your grades? Shoot the teacher!


Author:
Zisel ben
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Date Posted: 11:44:21 05/02/01 Wed

"People are violent by nature."

I simply do not agree with that.

I also never said that "well, we can't solve the problem and people will always get guns on the black market if they become illegal, so we'll just ignore the problem, blame it on human nature, and let people just go on killing each other." YOU said this. Don't go putting words in my mouth. Just because I didn't offer a solution at this very moment does not mean I don't have one. Give some time to think a little harder and I will be back with one.

"Or how 'bout we rip out a women's clit with a pair of rusty pliers to keep her from being unfaithful because she will lose the desire to fornicate with another man other than her husband." I'm sorry, but this is the most absurd argument that I've ever had. OK, going by this analogy, a woman's clit is the gun, metaphorically speaking. The clit, as you so delicately called it, is what is driving women to be unfaithful, so following your logic, a gun is what drives these people to violence? Well, if that is the case, and since guns, unlike clits, do not serve any productive role in society, why not get rid of them? "

I guess you did not understand the point of all my analogies. Yes, they are ridiculous analogies, they were meant to be. They were all sarcastic, I was making fun of the line of thinking where the "gun" is the source of the problem. Which I don't agree with anymore than I believe that the "clit" (soo indelicate, pardon me) is the source of desire in a women. It might be where desire makes itself manifest but I believe that the mind is the most powerful erogenous zone. But I'm sure you will try to debate with me on that one or something.

I also don't agree that people have the same intrisic nature as monkeys as you presented. And we can argue till we are blue in the face but I don't suppose either one of us will change our opinion.

"Have you ever had some piece of shit pull iron on you? I have. And it makes you feel helpless and it sucks..."

Now, THIS stuck me as very interesting. Isn't it a horrible feeling? Yeah, have you ever been held down by four large men who are are bigger and stronger than you and had your body being taken over and violated in such a manner that you lose all hope? I think these are some very interesting feelings and ideas that you have flowing here and I urge you to continue pondering them.

Ta Ta for now,
Zisel

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[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Don't like your grades? Shoot the teacher!


Author:
Zisel ben
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Date Posted: 12:41:02 05/02/01 Wed

A question for you Rodney: Since you seem to feel very strongly about this ban the guns deal, which I can understand where you are coming from when you say that they are not productive, I must inquire, how do you feel about the government building up arms to "defend" us from other countries?

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Don't like your grades? Shoot the teacher!


Author:
Rodney Reel
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Date Posted: 13:01:48 05/02/01 Wed

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20010502/ts/crime_teacher_dc_1.html

Check out this news story. This 14 year old in Florida got sent home from school for throwing water balloons. So he went home, got a gun, and shot the teacher.

Zisel, no, I haven't ever held down by four people and violated, but that has nothing to do with the discussion. You feel that violence isn't an intrinsic characteristic, so what do we do about guns? What's the deal with all of the violence? Are we just weak-minded and are being brainwashed into thinking that handing out beat downs and objectifying women as sex objects is cook by television and video games? (as an aside, there's some computer game that's out now that sells the fact that the two main characters (both chicks) get frisky with each other at times. the ad has both of them in their drawz and bras, laying almost on top of each other. they're frigging computer animations for christ's sake!)

But back to your question, I have no problem with us having a national defense budget. It may be naive, but I trust the military with the guns more than I trust the everyday schmo.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Don't like your grades? Shoot the teacher!


Author:
Zisel ben
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Date Posted: 21:27:50 05/02/01 Wed

My point with the being held down by someone was that it is the same as having someone pull a gun on you---You feel helpless and scared, that was my point, so it DOES have something to do with the discussion. Okay? YOU were the one who brought that up, anyway, I'm not sure if there was a question following that...but I said that to begin with because I was explaining that someone who is using a gun is being violent driven from a motive to be violent, their gun is just the tool. But I do see your point that without guns maybe it wouldn't be so easy to kill someone when you are driven to a violent outburst BUT I still feel more strongly about the fact that concentrating on the root of the problem is a more pressing issue. I guess in the mean time we should try to eliminate easy-to-access deadly weapons like guns. That is something I will agree with.

And, yes, I don't feel violence is intrisic in human nature. I am not a violent person. I have never been. I also happen to know countless people who are not. Many people. How can you say that it is? Do you feel that these people who commit violent acts on a regular basis were born with this desire to kill or harm or whatever? That just seems like a sad dark assumption and underestimation of humans and their ability to evolve, especially with your comparison to monkeys or something. I mean, isn't that what "evolution" is about? We are constantly evolving. Maybe you don't feel that we have. ?

I believe that as people grow they learn what gets results and what doesn't and if they learn that violence, in any fashion, is a tool for power or indulgence than, yes, they will use it. And who knows where they learn it or at what point in their life they are influenced by it, I don't think that the media is to blame, I think it goes deeper than that. Whether we like to admit it or not our parents, teachers and friends are out biggest influences on our lives and if we surround ourselves and are exposed to negativity and violence on a regular basis than sometimes it becomes hard to filter out what is acceptable and what is not, what is right and what is wrong. What IS right and wrong? I believe that we all know that answer to that in our hearts but are afraid to embrace that inner sense out of a lack of trust or fear that it will not get us "what we want". Maybe we should stop focusing on "what can I get" and instead learn to give, and teach others the same, and with that as the goal WHO would want to harm another simply for their own gain? But here I am getting all idealistic I suppose. Shame on me, right?

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