Haven't seen the last eppy but didn't Denise say it happened to her and she was the one that would have to work it out with Jeremy. That this was not a one time event and seemed to be escalating on Jeremy's part. " I'm sorry", and all of a sudden all is supposed to be right with the world? I really don't feel it's genuine and that is probably one of the reasons I have a hard time with cutting him some slack. Yes help him but he needs some MAJOR consequence because of his repeated actions. Denise helping him come up with a solution to his Dad's punishment made from outrage and anger would just be more coddling. Jeremy sure knows how to get what he wants, no West Point, and not only talking to Amanda but doing the very thing that wouldn't earn him her father's trust! -- Army Wives: Celebrating the circle of friendship!

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Date Posted: 08:59:54 07/18/07 Wed
Author: Jubellant
Subject: Haven't seen the last eppy but didn't Denise say it happened to her and she was the one that would have to work it out with Jeremy. That this was not a one time event and seemed to be escalating on Jeremy's part. " I'm sorry", and all of a sudden all is supposed to be right with the world? I really don't feel it's genuine and that is probably one of the reasons I have a hard time with cutting him some slack. Yes help him but he needs some MAJOR consequence because of his repeated actions. Denise helping him come up with a solution to his Dad's punishment made from outrage and anger would just be more coddling. Jeremy sure knows how to get what he wants, no West Point, and not only talking to Amanda but doing the very thing that wouldn't earn him her father's trust!
In reply to: Texasbrat 's message, "Read it & it is most interesting. Maybe a better response on Frank's part would have been to tell Jeremy that he wanted him out of the house by the time he got back when Frank walked out after Jeremy told him. That would have allowed Denise & Jeremy time to find him a place to stay. I believe Michael Holden let Jeremy down in the area too, he said he would help him after he told his dad, but didn't. Michael could have told him that one way to earn his trust was to seek help, & then help him find a place to get that help. I think Frank thinks that by getting rid of Jeremy, he gets rid of the problem, & D wants to help her son, doesn't exactly know how, & was probably hoping Frank would help with that too." on 07:48:04 07/18/07 Wed

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[> [> [> hm, haven't seen the last ep either, but I did read those posts on KFugate's site. They didn't make me change my mind though about Frank, but I believe that disapproving of his behaviour doesn't mean supporting Jeremy! I totally agree with those who think that hitting his mom is a very serious offense and that he deserves a major punishment. He has anger management issues that need to be addressed though not only by a punishment but by counseling also. So it's not the idea of a punishment from his father that irates me, it's the fact that Frank hadn't even stopped for a second before he kicked him out of the house WITHOUT knowing where he would go. Ok, Frank loves his wife very much and his anger is legitimate, but still,..(inside) -- jo, 09:43:31 07/18/07 Wed [1]

his son should still be his son and Frank should be willing to try to help him overcome his problem.Or Frank doesn't seem to care at all about this aspect, and that's what I so strongly resent about him. His son is dead to him?! This I can't understand. maybe it's because he has never truly considered Jeremy as his son but as his own extension, his property, and when Jeremy stopped behaving as such he was wiped out from his father's life. Some posters said that he reacted this way because it was about his wife whom he loves more than anything else etc. Ok, I can understand that. BUT he should also love his son more than anything else, don't you think so? what about the unconditional love parents have for their kids? therefore,he should balance punishment AND help. Denise got it, and I don't think that her trying to make sure her son is alright is coddling him, it's a natural maternal reaction. IMO

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[> [> [> [> Jeremy is resourceful and bold enough to use his Mom as a punching bag on a military base no less. I think he would be resourceful enough to find somewhere to stay. Peter Belgrade got cut some slack for his PTSD. I think Frank too was affected by what he endured, maybe not to the same extent however. I am concerned though by Frank's escalating anger. I think he is going into overkill here. He wasn't there to protect Denise and it appears he is making up for this feeling of helplessnes by taking it out on anything remotely connected with his son. That he used the word dead to him and not disappointed, hurt, or betrayed is a major concern. That he said something out of anger, I could deal with it but his cont. rage is troublesome. (Inside) -- Jubellant, 12:20:37 07/18/07 Wed [1]

Not knowing much about his character besides his military style run home with the male being the head of the household stance, I am not going to be too quick to judge him. There seems to be some moments of genuine caring for his son especially before he learned of the abuse. He asked Denise where's Jeremy when she greeted him off the bus, he winks at his son after being told the trout are really biting, he supports his architecture decision and thanks him for looking after his Mother. Then of course everything hit the fan and I think he took out his feelings of frustration and helplessness from his last mission as well as on the home front, out on Jeremy.

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[> [> [> [> I hear what you are saying jo, but there is a supposed close knittedness on an army post. You so frequently hear the phrase we stick together. I would expect that would extend to the kids as well and Jeremy would not have had a problem finding a place to lay his head overnight, then call his Mother in the morning and work something out with her,. -- Jubellant, 14:31:05 07/18/07 Wed [1]

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[> [> [> [> [> Jubellant, I think we have to agree to disagree on this one...LOL. I agree with jo as well. I'm sorry, but my opinion of Franks personality and actions still hold strong and haven't changed. Jeremy said in this last episode (which I know you haven't seen yet) that he couldn't show his face around there with everyone knowing what he did and that there was nothing left for him there. Jeremy is embarassed about what he did and can't face anyone and for him to just call home is also touchy with his father there to answer the phone at anytime. It's not an easy situation. I don't by any means condone what Jeremy did, but Frank handled the situation badly all the way around, including with Denise and then saying his son was dead to him was awful. -- KH, 18:28:24 07/18/07 Wed [1]

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Frank "quit" his son and from the looks of it, he won't have any change of heart any time soon. I admire Denise so much (she's come a long way and was handling it), such a strong, loving, caring and forgiving woman and mother. Denise "didn't quit" her son like his father did. Take Care! :o) -- KH, 18:29:43 07/18/07 Wed [1]

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> I hear you K.H. If Jeremy wasn't 18, I might feel strongly about him being tossed out. Jeremy should be embarassed, his behaviour was inexcusable. Jeremy's an Adult! There are many ways to channel one's anger, that Jeremy chose abuse is appalling to me. I hate the silent treatment Frank is giving Denise as it solves nothing. Communication is the key. Jeremy buying a few groceries, vacuuming and helping his mother garden does not cut it. These are all things he should have been doing anyways as being part of a family. Don't toss him out on his ear? Fine, but what's his punishment? I realize that he needs major help! It didn't phase Jeremy one bit to see his mother helpless and defenseless against his abuse. Now one is supposed to feel sorry for him in a situation he created? I don't get it! -- Jubellant, 05:52:45 07/19/07 Thu [1]

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Are you a Mom Jubellant? -- Kathy, 10:50:19 07/19/07 Thu [1]

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Kathy if I am a Mom would my stance make me heartless. If I am not a Mom would it make me unable to understand how a Mother would feel? Either way it's a moot point! -- Jubellant, 17:58:11 07/19/07 Thu [1]

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Would a mother be worried sick if her adult child was tossed out the house by his Dad? You bet! I didn't see this as being a longterm thing, I didn't feel Jeremy was in any immediate danger and I thought it just might jolt him into realizing this was just not something that could be smoothed over easily. -- Jubellant, 18:45:10 07/19/07 Thu [1]

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I think being angry with Franks actions doesn't equal condoning the abuse. Inside... -- Theresa, 12:32:22 07/19/07 Thu [1]

The anger toward Frank comes from his disregard for Denise and lack of trust that she had it under control. Thinking him saying his son is dead to him was overboard doesn't mean that we believe that Jeremy wasn't horrible and needs to be punished. If Denise had asked Frank to remove Jeremy because she was afraid he would be right to do so, but she didn't, she was dealing with it already in her own way. Should Jeremy be punished? OH YES! He should be put into domestic violence treatment. Those facilities are NOT fun. There he'd get the help he needed and be in a place where his mother knew he was safe. She went from fearing Frank had died to fearing for her son. And now she's doubly afraid because he enlisted.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I don't think anyone is feeling sorry for Jeremy per say, its more feeling sorry for Denise. Once again she's the victim, & she put an end to Jeremy's abuse, & she was working on forgiving him & rebuilding their relationship. Then Frank comes in like a bat outta h**l, & in one SWOOP destroys all of that by throwing Jeremy out & what's worse IMHO, by totally DISREGARDING Denise's feelings. Its like Denise didn't matter, Frank was taking charge & he was going to make the decisions FOR her in regards to Jeremy. So once again, Denise loses out, b/c of Frank's actions. What Frank should've done IMHO is taken Jeremy to the hospital, where they could admit him to get him help with his anger problem. Then when he's released, like Theresa said, Inside... -- Jennifer, 13:43:36 07/19/07 Thu [1]

Jeremy needs to attend domestic violence programs, much like an alcoholic with AA. What bothered me is Frank's bullying attitude, like it was a personal affront against him, where he totally dissed Denise and wouldn't even listen to what she had to say. That's not Frank's style, listening to the "little" woman, he's the male and he makes the decisions.

Its in no way feeling sorry for Jeremy. He made his own bed, and he (and Denise) were trying to rebuild. Yes Jeremy should've sought treatment on his own, but he's a teenager and they don't think like that.

Jeremy's anger is at his father and Frank's standards of upbringing, its just Denise who was the one home had to deal with it. And Jeremy used her as a punching bag....

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Exactly. I'm with you all the way. -- Theresa, 14:02:11 07/19/07 Thu [1]

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> for me too Twinny! I'm with you all the way as well. :o) -- KH, 18:04:51 07/19/07 Thu [1]

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Thank you, Jennifer. You've put it into perspective for me. Frank's coming home and "taking control" of the situation 'like a bat outta hell' describes it perfectly. I was left with the same feeling I had when the PTSD soldier (forgot his name) was shot (!) just as Roland was making headway in resolving the situation quietly. The Army swooped in with guns blazing and settled everything once and for all! I felt slapped, betrayed, deflated. The most forceful response is not always the best. I hope Frank will figure that out. -- judy, 18:23:15 07/19/07 Thu [1]

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Theresa, I was as appauled as you were by Frank's comments about his son being dead to him and could only hope that these words expressed in anger would have him repenting in the brighter light of day (once he cooled down). I also recoiled when I heard the words Frank said to Denise being 'Do you understand me?', like she was a child, stupid, or a suboordinate. I can see the anger being thrown Frank's way with respect to Denise. I just was feeling more the vibe of poor Adult Jeremy was getting tossed for acting like an adult and treating his Mom like she was someone of no consequence, that didn't deserve to be respected, and whom he hurt enough to draw blood and leave bruises. (Inside) -- Jubellant, 18:21:32 07/19/07 Thu [1]

I agree wholeheartedly that Denise had a right to deal with the situation as she had already embarked on a course of action. Ideally the two parents should have conferred on a mutual solution to the problem. Frank went ballistic, but to his credit he did not continue the pattern of violence and go after his son which is what Michael would have done. As for your concerns re: the Frank/Denise dymnamics I am in full agreement on that front.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I think to a certain extent Jeremy was treating his mother as father did...not from the physical abuse standpoint, but from the standpoint that she's really a NONEITY & she's just a woman so who cares what her opinions are. That part of Frank rubbed off on Jeremy, & he like Frank totally disregarded Denise, thought of her as a subordinate (since his Dad was gone Jeremy was man of the house thereby assuming Frank's role in the family) & he didn't respect his mother one iota. That he learned from Frank....but Denise stood up to Jeremy (I wish she would've smacked him back however LOL) & like I said, when Frank got home he made it ALL ABOUT him. Inside... -- Jennifer, 19:06:18 07/19/07 Thu [1]

Not about Jeremy and Denise...Its Denise's choice whether she forgives her son and wants him to be a part of her life, not Frank's. Frank has every right to be angry with Jeremy, for Jeremy is close enough to being an adult where his actions are reprehensible, and he should know better. But its not Frank's place to SPEAK for Denise, or to make decisions in regards to Denise's relationship with Jeremy.

But Frank is controlling...he calls the shots, and no one has ever IMHO had the guts to stand up to him or "question" his decisions. Well, the time has come where Denise has, and Frank can't handle it. So he's reacting like a spoiled toddler....

As for Jeremy, yes he and Denise should've sought treatment immediately....I think Jeremy would've benefitted, and maybe *if* he'd been in treatment when Frank returned Frank wouldn't of gone so ballistic. Who knows?

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I agree with you here but think Frank's reaction was more of a knee jerk one that no one hits his wife. You touch my wife and you answer to me. Unfortunately this approach did undermine what Denise was trying to accomplish here. What she didn't need was someone rescuing her on a white horse. She needed to gain the respect of her son herself. Just as she is now forcing Frank to do. -- Jubellant, 19:52:59 07/19/07 Thu [1]

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Then we're in agreement Jubellant because I don't think that Jeremy needs sympathy either. I think he needs treatment before he goes to basic training and learns even more ways to hurt people when he's angry. I'm afraid he's going to get himself and maybe others killed. And Denise will blame Frank for tossing him out of both of their lives against her protests, and making Jeremy feel like he needed to enlist, when Jeremy was about to become an architect. I think also that Denise was so forgiving of Jeremy because deep down she knew where his frustration came from. -- Theresa, 21:20:04 07/19/07 Thu [1]

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> You make a very interesting point with respect to Denise and her knowing where Jeremy's frustration comes from. She probably feels she attracted and fascilitated the abuse by being weak and letting herself be treated like a doormat. -- Jubellant, 01:49:59 07/20/07 Fri [1]

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