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Date Posted: 12:12:13 03/18/02 Mon
Author: Ëåì
Subject: Re: í³÷îãî íîâîãî ïðî "êîð³â" íå ïî÷óâ :)
In reply to: Òðåéòÿê 's message, "í³÷îãî íîâîãî ïðî "êîð³â" íå ïî÷óâ :)" on 14:06:15 03/16/02 Sat

Çàóâàãà: íå õîõëîôîáàìè, à óêðà¿íîôîáàìè. Áî öÿ íåíàâèñòü ñòîñóºòüñÿ ñàìå á³ëüø-ìåíø ñâ³äîìèõ óêðà¿íö³â.

Íå ÷³ïëÿéñÿ äî ñë³â, ÿê òà äèòèíà. Ñâ³äîìèé, íåñâ³äîìèé, õîõîë, ìàëîðîñ, óêðà¿íåöü... Äëÿ íèõ íå ³ñíóº æîäíèõ óêðà¿íö³â, âîíè çàñòèãëè íà äîíàö³îíàëüíîìó ð³âí³. Ïðàâäà, ïî ðåâîëþö³¿ òàì áóâ äîñèòü ñèëüíèé íàö³îíàëüíèé ðóõ, àëå éîãî áóëî ðåïðåñîâàíî. ² ïëþñ ãîëîäîìîð, äåïîðòàö³ÿ, ì³ãðàö³ÿ ç íå÷åðíîçåìíî¿ Ðîñ³¿ ³ àæ äî ïåðåéìåíóâàííÿ ñòàíèöü (íàïðèêëàä, Óìàíñüêà, çäàºòüñÿ, ïî÷àëà íàçèâàòèñÿ Ëåí³íãðàäñüêîþ). Êîðîòøå, ç óêðà¿íñüêèì íàö³îíàëüíèì ñàìîóñâ³äîìëåííÿì òàì íå ñêëàëîñÿ, òî ÿê ìîæíà âèìàãàòè, ùîá âîíè âèçíàâàëè ñàìîñò³éíó Óêðà¿íó ³ ¿¿ ö³ííîñò³? Àëå âîíè é íå ðîñ³ÿíè. Î÷åâèäíî, ñë³ä âèçíàòè, ùî öå ÿêàñü îêðåìà íàö³ÿ, ñòâîðåíà íà óêðà¿íñüêîìó åòí³÷íîìó ìàòåð³àë³ ç ï³çí³øèìè ³íøîåòí³÷íèìè äîäàòêàìè.

Íó òî é ùî ç òîãî? Òîé Øêóðî ìîæå é ìàâ óêðà¿íñüêèõ ïðåäê³â, àëå çà ïåðåêîíàííÿì áóâ çàâçÿòèé ìîñêàëü. ßê ³ òâî¿ êóáàíñüê³ "õîõëîôîáè". Âîíè íå º óêðà¿íöÿìè, àëå ïðàâäèâèìè ìîñêàëÿìè. Óêðà¿íñòâà â íèõ ñàì³ ðåøòêè, íà
åòíîãðàô³÷íîìó ð³âí³ (ñï³âè, íàïð.)

Àãà, ñï³âè ³ íàðîäíà çàáàâà íèùåííÿ æèä³â:))) ×èì òîá³ íå åòíîãðàô³ÿ? ß æ êàæó, ùî çâåðíóâ íà êîçàê³â Øêóðî óâàãó ò³ëüêè òîìó, ùî ïîì³òèâ ïåâíó ñïàäêîºìí³ñòü ç êîçàöüêèìè òðàäèö³ÿìè (êîíêðåòíî éäåòüñÿ ïðî ñïîñ³á âáèâñòâà). ×èñò³ñ³íüêà åòíîãðàô³ÿ:)

Òðèâàëà ìîñêîâñüêà ïðîïà´àíäà ç ÷àñîì ïåðåòâîðèëà öþ ïåðåâàæíî ñóòî
åòíîãðàô÷íó ìàñó íà ñâ³äîìèõ ìîñêàë³â.

Íó ÿ íå çíàþ, íàñê³ëüêè êîðåêòíèì º âèâîäèòè îñîáëèâó íàö³þ "ñâ³äîìèõ ìîñêàë³â". Ìîñêàëü - öå ðàäøå ùîñü åòíîãðàô³÷íå, à ÿêùî ðîçãëÿíóòè ó ³äåîëîã³÷íîìó ñìèñë³, òî ñåðåä "³ìïåðö³â" âèñòà÷ຠ³ åòí³÷íèõ óêðà¿íö³â. Íàïðèêëàä, äîáðå â³äîìèì ôàêòîì º, ùî á³ëüø³ñòü ïðîâ³äíèõ ºâðàç³éö³â áóëè óêðà¿íöÿìè çà ïîõîäæåííÿì. Òè ÿêîñü äóæå çàïðîñòî ä³ëèø íà "ìîñêàë³â" ³ "óêðà¿íö³â", à ì³æ òèì, ³ñíóþòü ùå "ðóññ곺". Íå êàæó÷è âæå çà íîâîâèâåäåíèõ "êðåîë³â":)Ìîñêàëü - öå â òåáå òîé õòî çà ìîñêîâñüêó ³ìïåð³þ, óêðà¿íåöü - çà óêðà¿íñüêó ñàìîñò³éí³ñòü. À ÿê áóòè ç óêðà¿íöÿìè, ÿê³ çà îá"ºäíàííÿ ç Ðîñ³ºþ ó ðàìêàõ Êè¿âñüêî¿ ³ìïåð³¿?:) À îñü òóò ïî÷èíຠãëþ÷èòè. Íåõàé áóäóòü ìîñêî-óêðà¿íöÿìè:) À ³ñíóº ùå ìàñà àìá³ö³éíèõ óêðà¿íö³â-³ìïåð³àë³ñò³â, ÿê³ õî÷óòü æèòè ó âåëèê³é äåðæàâ³. Âîíè òåæ "ñâ³äîì³ ìîñêàë³"? ͺ, âîíè óêðà¿íö³ ç "ðóññêîé" ³äåíòèô³êàö³ºþ, ïîäîáàºòüñÿ öå òîá³ ÷è í³. Òðåáà ïðîñòî âèçíàòè, ùî óêðà¿íö³ áóâàþòü ð³çíèìè, ³ í³ òè, í³ ÿ íå ìàºìî ìîíîïî볿 íà óêðà¿íñòâî. Ìåí³ çäàºòüñÿ, òàê áóäå ïðàâèëüí³øå. Òðåáà ïðèïèíèòè êèäàòèñÿ òèìè "õîõëàìè", "ÿíè÷àðàìè" ³ "õîëóÿìè", áî íà "õîëóé Ìîñêâè" òè çàâæäè ïî÷óºø ó â³äïîâ³äü "õîëóé ÍÀÒÎ" (àáî "õîëóé Âàðøàâè", ùî ñüîãîäí³ âòðàòèëî àêòóàëüí³ñòü). Ïðîñòî ó íèõ â³äì³ííå áà÷åííÿ Óêðà¿íè ³ ¿¿ ìàéáóòíüîãî. Âîíè ÷åñíî â³ðÿòü, ùî âîíî á³ëüø ïðàâèëüíå. Òî÷í³ñ³íüêî òàê ñàìî ÿê ³ òè. Öå âñå ÷åðåç òå, ùî ôîðìóâàííÿ íàö³¿ ïðîõîäèëî ó âêðàé íåñïðèÿòëèâèõ óìîâàõ, ³ íà ñüîãîäí³ ùå íå çàâåðøåíî, çâ³äêè ³ òàê³ â³äì³ííîñò³ ó ðîçóì³íí³ "ïðàâèëüíîãî óêðà¿íñòâà".

Àãà, çàðàç ñêàæè ìåí³, ùî çàïîðîæö³ ñâ³äîìî é çàâçÿòî áîðîëèñÿ çà ìîñêîâñüêèõ öàð³â.

Òà íå áîðîëèñÿ âîíè çà æîäíèõ öàð³â. Öå áóëà "âîëüíèöÿ", çà âîëüíîñò³ ³ áîðîëèñÿ. Öå áóëà îñîáëèâà â³éñüêîâà êàñòà, ÿêà ïî÷óâàëàñÿ á íåïðèðîäíî ó ðàìêàõ áóäü-ÿêî¿ äåðæàâè - ÷è òî ïîëüñüêî¿, ÷è ìîñêîâñüêî¿, ÷è õàé íàâ³òü ã³ïîòåòè÷íî¿ óêðà¿íñüêî¿. Âîþâàòè - òàê, öå ¿õíº ïîêëèêàííÿ, à ñòâîðåííÿ ³ ðîçáóäîâà äåðæàâè - òî âæå íå äî íèõ. Äî ðå÷³, ïðåêðàñíî ñïðàâëÿëèñÿ ç ðîëëþ íàéìàíö³â.

Òàê çàâçÿòî, ùî àæ íà Äóíàé ïîâò³êàëè. À Ãîð䳺íêî â³ä òî¿ çàâçÿòîñò³ ï³øîâ äî êðèìñüêîãî õàíà ïðîñèòèñÿ íà í³÷ë³ã. ² ùå ñêàæè ìåí³ ïðî áîðîòüáó ç íåâ³ðíèìè çà òîðæåñòâî õðèñòèÿíñòâà. Äî òîãî äîáîðîëèñÿ, ùî ïî÷èíàþ÷è â³ä Õìåëüíèöüêîãî ³ äàë³ íàéêðàùèìè ñîþçíèêàìè ââàæàëè òàòàð ç òóðêàìè.

Íó ùî âè ç òèìè áàñóðìàíàìè äîêîëóïàëèñÿ? Íó âîíè æ íå â öåðêîâíó óí³þ ç íèìè ãðàëèñÿ, à ó çâè÷àéí³ ì³ë³òàðí³ ñîþçè.
ßêùî á³ëüøå ïî÷èòàòè ïîëüñüêèõ àâòîð³â, òî âçàãàë³ ìàòèìåø âðàæåííÿ, ùî íàñïðàâä³ âîíè áóëè ïðîâîâ³ðíèìè ìàãîìåòàíàìè:))

Òàê îò, âáèâñòîì æèä³â çàâæäè çàéìàâñÿ ñàìå ïðîñòîëþä, ÷åðíü, à íå ñàìà øëÿõò, ÿêà àêòèâíî êîðèñòóâàëàñÿ ïîñëóãàìè æèä³â. Òàê ñàìî é çàïîðîæö³ (÷èòàé õî÷áè Òàðàñà Áóëüáó). À âáèâñòâîì æèä³â øëÿõòà íå çàéìàëàñÿ - äëÿ òîãî º ÷åðíü, íàâ³ùî øëÿõò³ "ìàðàòèñÿ"? :)

À ÿêà, âëàñíå, ð³çíèöÿ? Òàêå âðàæåííÿ, ùî òåáå çàïðîñèëè àäâîêàòîì íà ïðîöåñ, äå þäå¿ ñóäÿòü øëÿõòó:)

Ïðîñòå çàïèòàííÿ: êîëè òà õòî ç Êèºâà íàêèíóâ ³äåþ ïðî Òðåò³é Ðèì ìîñêâèíàì?

Ïðèãàäàé-íî ñîá³, ÿê Îëåã ç â³éñüêîì ÷îâíè íà êîëåñàõ ñóøåþ òÿãàâ:) Ëèáîíü, íå ïðîñòî òàê çàáàâëÿâñÿ, íå ìàþ÷è êóäè ïîä³òè äóðíî¿ ñèëè. Âò³ì, òè âæå êîëèñü ïðî öå çàïèòóâàâ.

ªðåñü æèäîâñòâóþùèõ (íåîô³ö³éíèé, àáî ÿê òåïåð ãîâîðÿòü "íåôîðìàëüíèé" ðóõ) öå îäíå , à íàêàçè (ö³ëêîì
îô³ö³éí³, îáîâ"ÿçóþ÷³ äî âèêîíàííÿ) ²âàíà Ãðîçíîãî ùîäî æèä³â òî ³íøå.

À ùî òàì ç íàêàçàìè ²âàíà Ãðîçíîãî? Íåâæå æèä³â ãàíÿâ?

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