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Date Posted: 14:06:15 03/16/02 Sat
Author: Òðåéòÿê
Subject: í³÷îãî íîâîãî ïðî "êîð³â" íå ïî÷óâ :)
In reply to: Ëåì 's message, "Re: äî ÷îãî òóò äåí³ê³íö³?" on 13:21:37 03/16/02 Sat

---- Øêóðî ñàìå ³ áóâ âèõ³äöåì ç êóáàíñüêîãî ñåðåäîâèùà. ß æ íåäàðåìíî ãîâîðèâ ïðî ñïàäêîºìí³ñòü òðàäèö³é. ß ¿õ áà÷èâ íå òàê äàâíî ó îäíîìó í³ìåöüêîìó ô³ëüì³: ðîçìîâëÿþòü ðîñ³éñüêîþ ç ñèëüíèì ìàëîðîñ³éñüêèì àêöåíòîì, ñï³âàþòü ÷èñò³ñ³íüêîþ óêðà¿íñüêîþ, º çàâçÿòèìè ìîíàðõ³ñòàìè ³ þäîôîáàìè (³ õîõëîôîáàìè òåæ). \

Çàóâàãà: íå õîõëîôîáàìè, à óêðà¿íîôîáàìè. Áî öÿ íåíàâèñòü ñòîñóºòüñÿ ñàìå á³ëüø-ìåíø ñâ³äîìèõ óêðà¿íö³â.
Íó òî é ùî ç òîãî? Òîé Øêóðî ìîæå é ìàâ óêðà¿íñüêèõ ïðåäê³â, àëå çà ïåðåêîíàííÿì áóâ çàâçÿòèé ìîñêàëü. ßê ³ òâî¿ êóáàíñüê³ "õîõëîôîáè". Âîíè íå º óêðà¿íöÿìè, àëå ïðàâäèâèìè ìîñêàëÿìè. Óêðà¿íñòâà â íèõ ñàì³ ðåøòêè, íà
åòíîãðàô³÷íîìó ð³âí³ (ñï³âè, íàïð.) Òðèâàëà ìîñêîâñüêà ïðîïà´àíäà ç ÷àñîì ïåðåòâîðèëà öþ ïåðåâàæíî ñóòî
åòíîãðàô÷íó ìàñó íà ñâ³äîìèõ ìîñêàë³â.

--- À ïðî ×å÷íþ òðåáà ðîçïîâ³äàòè? ³ä ïî÷àòêó ³ äî íàøèõ äí³â? ×è öå ãåòü çðóéíóº òâî¿ ³äåàë³çîâàí³ óÿâëåííÿ
ïðî çàïîðîæö³â? :)

Öå òè ìàºø íà óâàç³ îô³öåð³â óêð. ïîõîäæåííÿ ó ðîñ. àð쳿? Íó òî çíîâó, ùî ç òîãî? ßê³ âîíè óêðà¿íö³, ÿêùî âîíè
ñâîãî óêðà¿íñòâà âæå äàâíî â³äöóðàëèñÿ ³ îñü-îñü äîäàäóòü äî ñâî¿õ íåçðó÷íèõ "õîõëÿöüêèõ" ïð³çâèù îáîâ"ÿçêîâå
ìîñêîâñüêå -â? :) Âîíè - óêðà¿íö³? Íå ñì³øè ëþäåé. Âîíè âæå ìîñêàë³. Ç íàêàçó Ìîñêâè âîíè òàê ñàìî ï³äóòü
âîþâàòè Óêðà¿íó, ÿê ñüîãîäí³ âîþþòü ×å÷íþ.

---- Íà ì³é ïîãëÿä, íàéá³ëüøèì ãëóïñòâîì çà äîáó íåçàëåæíîñòè áóëî ïðîãîëîñèòè çàïîðîæö³â áîðöÿìè çà
óêðà¿íñüêó äåðæàâí³ñòü.

Àãà, çàðàç ñêàæè ìåí³, ùî çàïîðîæö³ ñâ³äîìî é çàâçÿòî áîðîëèñÿ çà ìîñêîâñüêèõ öàð³â. Òàê çàâçÿòî, ùî àæ íà Äóíàé ïîâò³êàëè. À Ãîð䳺íêî â³ä òî¿ çàâçÿòîñò³ ï³øîâ äî êðèìñüêîãî õàíà ïðîñèòèñÿ íà í³÷ë³ã. ² ùå ñêàæè ìåí³ ïðî áîðîòüáó ç íåâ³ðíèìè çà òîðæåñòâî õðèñòèÿíñòâà. Äî òîãî äîáîðîëèñÿ, ùî ïî÷èíàþ÷è â³ä Õìåëüíèöüêîãî ³ äàë³ íàéêðàùèìè ñîþçíèêàìè ââàæàëè òàòàð ç òóðêàìè.

--- òîá³ âèñòà÷èòü ôàíòà糿 óÿâèòè, ùî õîõëè ìîæóòü áóòè ïîáîðíèêàìè ö³º¿ "ºä³íàé íºäºë³ìàé"?:) Äî òîãî æ, òàêèìè, ÿêèõ ³ â Ìîñêîâùèí³ íå çíàéäåø. Îñü äå ñïðàâæíÿ òðàãåä³ÿ. À õòî áóëè íàéêðàùèìè âîÿêàìè ó ñîâºöüê³é àð쳿, í³÷îãî íå ÷óâ?.. "Êàçàêè" Øêóðî áóëè õîõëàìè

Òè ïîãàíî¿ äóìêè ïðî ìîþ ôàíòàçþ :) Äèâèñü âèùå.
Òðàãåä³ÿ, êàæåø? Òàê, òðàãåä³ÿ, ùî ñò³ëüêè ëþäåé ïîâòðà÷àëè íà êîðèñòü âîðîã³â. Àëå òåïåð íåìຠðàäè - ìóñèìî âæå áîðîíèòè ðåøòó. À ïðî òèõ çìîñêîâùåíèõ, ìàáóòü, äîâåäåòüñÿ çàáóòè. Ïðèíàéìí³ ñüîãîäí³ ¿õ íå ìîæíà ââàæàòè óêðà¿íÿìè. Òà é âîíè ñàì³ ñåáå âèçíà÷àþòü ìîñêàëÿìè.

---- Ñîö³àëüí³ ìîòèâè - öå òàê, àëå äàëåêî íå âñå. Ìåí³ çäàºòüñÿ,òóò ãëèáøèé êîíôë³êò, "ìåòàô³çè÷íèé" ÿêùî áàæàºø. Ùî òàêå êîçàêè? òà ò³ æ ñàì³ õðåñòîíîñö³. Öå âîºííà öèâ³ë³çàö³ÿ ó êîíôë³êò³ ç êîìåðö³éíîþ.

ßêùî âæå çàéøëà ìîâà ïðî àíàëî´³þ ç õðåñòîíîñöÿìè, òî ÷îì áè íå çðîáèòè íàñòóïíèé êðîê: êîçàêè-çàïîðîæö³ öå âèùà âåðñòâà, øëÿõåòíà, ÿêà ç ïîãîðäîþ äèâèëàñÿ íà ÷åðíü, ÿê ³ õðåñòîíîñö³-øëÿõòè÷è. À ÷åðíü òî ïðîñòîëþä. Òàê îò, âáèâñòîì æèä³â çàâæäè çàéìàâñÿ ñàìå ïðîñòîëþä, ÷åðíü, à íå ñàìà øëÿõò, ÿêà àêòèâíî êîðèñòóâàëàñÿ ïîñëóãàìè æèä³â. Òàê ñàìî é çàïîðîæö³ (÷èòàé õî÷áè Òàðàñà Áóëüáó). À âáèâñòâîì æèä³â øëÿõòà íå çàéìàëàñÿ - äëÿ òîãî º ÷åðíü, íàâ³ùî øëÿõò³ "ìàðàòèñÿ"? :)

--- Êîçàêè ìàëè ïî÷óâàòè ãëèáîêó â³äðàçó äî ä³ÿëüíîñòè þäå¿â, ùå á³ëüøå í³æ äî "áþðãåð³â". Äî òîãî æ, ãåáðå¿
áóëè íåõðåùåíèìè, à ó î÷àõ êîçàêà, îáîðîíöÿ ïðàâîñëàâ"ÿ, öå ìàëî íå çëî÷èí. Òîæ óñ³ ò³ "õóäîæåñòâà" Õìåëüíèöüêîãî ìàëè ï³äñòàâîþ íå îäíå ëèøå ãíîáëåííÿ (òèì á³ëüøå, êîçàê³â í³õòî íå ãíîáèâ, à ñåëÿíñòâî âîíè â³äâåðòî çíåâàæàëè). Öå, î÷åâèäíî, çàãàëüíîñâ³òîãëÿäí³ ìîòèâè.

ß íå ìîæó òóò ç òîáîþ ïîãîäèòèñü, áî ö³ âñ³ âèù³ ìîòèâè çàçâè÷àé íå áóâàþòü ïðè÷èíîþ, ïðè÷èíè êóäè ïðîñò³ø³ - à âèùèé ìîòèâ âèêîðèñòîâóºòüñÿ ëèøå ÿê ïðèâ³ä. Ïðîçà æèòòÿ ïåðåâàæàº, ÿêùî òîá³ áóäå çàâãîäíî :)

-- âëàñíîãî âîíè íå âèãàäóâàëè, àëå íàìàãàëèñÿ ðåàë³çóâàòè ³äå¿, íàêèíóò³ ¿ì ç Êèºâà, - ³äå¿, ÿê³ íå âäàëîñÿ
ðåàë³çóâàòè êèÿíàì. Ó òîìó ÷èñë³ ³ ïðî Òðåò³é Ðèì.

Ïðîñòå çàïèòàííÿ: êîëè òà õòî ç Êèºâà íàêèíóâ ³äåþ ïðî Òðåò³é Ðèì ìîñêâèíàì?

-- ÷è áóëî æèäîáîðñòâî ó Ìîñêî⳿ äî 17 ñò. - íå çíàþ, àëå çíàþ, ùî áóëî æèäîëþáñòâî.

ªðåñü æèäîâñòâóþùèõ (íåîô³ö³éíèé, àáî ÿê òåïåð ãîâîðÿòü "íåôîðìàëüíèé" ðóõ) öå îäíå , à íàêàçè (ö³ëêîì
îô³ö³éí³, îáîâ"ÿçóþ÷³ äî âèêîíàííÿ) ²âàíà Ãðîçíîãî ùîäî æèä³â òî ³íøå.

-- À "ìåòàô³çèêè" ³ êîçàêàì íå ïîçè÷àòè.

Ïðî ìåòàô³çèêó â êîçàê³â äèâ. âèùå.

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