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Subject: Oldies but goodies


Author:
Wes
[ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]
Date Posted: 11:50:21 03/31/15 Tue

Another column lifted from the paper.

I was swinging through one of the national news pages to see if I could kindle an idea for a column, and happened to notice that today is the sixtieth anniversary of the first flight of the B-52.

The big bomber has been around for a long time. Although it first flew sixty years ago, the actual roots of the design go back even further than that. The Air Force still has about ninety of them flying, and all of them are over half a century old, since the last of them were built in 1963. The big old bird has outlasted several newer planes, mostly because it has been proven fairly easy to upgrade and modify for a variety of missions over the years. At present, the Air Force plans to keep operating them until the 2040s, which when you stop and think about it is pretty amazing for a combat aircraft.

The part that really seems amazing is that the B-52 was designed in a period when aircraft design was changing rapidly. In World War II, which wasn't very far in memory when the pencils for the B-52 first hit the drawing board, an aircraft a year or two out of date was a hazard to its crew from being so obsolete -- yet the B-52 has hung on forever.

The B-52 is not the only aircraft out of the 1950s that has hung on forever doing just exactly the job it was expected to do, and no matter how much technology has changed, it still is nearly impossible to replace with something better. The C-130 was first conceived of in 1951 and first flew in 1954. They are still being built.

The C-130 is pretty close to a universal airplane. It has done everything. Designed as a cargo plane, it has been used for just about anything that can be crowded into its cavernous interior, everything from gunship to hurricane hunter, spy plane to forest fire control, from bomber to tanker. Don't get me wrong -- it's a BIG airplane, and I know, for I was a passenger in one several times almost fifty years ago. But big as it was, that didn't keep the Navy with experimenting with flying them off a carrier deck. Although they decided to not go through with it operationally, they are still the biggest airplane to ever fly off an aircraft carrier.

In the late 1960s the Air Force decided to explore the idea of a C-130 replacement and came up with the idea of a design competition. Lockheed entered the C-130 in the competition -- and won! Only now is the Air Force halfway serious about considering a C-130 replacement, and it probably will not go into production until the 2040s, if at all.

The U-2 reconnaissance aircraft, also a 1950s design, is still flying and will probably be well into the future. The Air Force also operates KC-135s, which were early model Boeing 707s, also dating from the 1950s.

It extends to helicopters, too -- the UH-1 "Huey" and CH-47 Chinook are both 1950s designs, and are still in active use. The Army is now phasing out the UH-1, but the venerable CH-47 is still in production, and there are other slightly younger designs that are coming up on their fiftieth anniversary.

Old aircraft designs staying active for decades is not just a military thing, either. I can rattle off several civilian planes that are still in use -- and some still in production, after fifty and sixty years of service. It is not unusual for a single airplane to remain in use for forty or fifty years, with good maintenance and equipment upgrades as needed.

The point that comes to me out of all this is that developments in aviation just aren't coming as fast as they once did -- but that once they get things right they might as well keep them right. Or, to say it in a different way, just because it's new doesn't necessarily mean that it's better. It's something we all ought to bear in mind.

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Replies:
[> Subject: Re: Oldies but goodies


Author:
Leo Kerr
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 20:13:55 03/31/15 Tue

on the B-52, it's also kind of remarkable how durable they are - in a more active sense. This is from memory of something I saw several years ago, but the B-52 on display at the Air Force Museum in Dayton was shot-up pretty bad over Vietnam. Hit by a SAM, or something like that. Limped back home, got repaired, and continued to fly missions over North Vietnam.

Kind of incredible (actually, the detailed damage assessment, including Engines #1 and #3 being scrap, are at the Museum's web-site.. http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/factsheets/factsheet.asp?id=294 )
[> [> Subject: Re: Oldies but goodies


Author:
bigolal
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 08:57:29 04/01/15 Wed

>on the B-52, it's also kind of remarkable how durable
>they are - in a more active sense. This is from memory
>of something I saw several years ago, but the B-52 on
>display at the Air Force Museum in Dayton was shot-up
>pretty bad over Vietnam. Hit by a SAM, or something
>like that. Limped back home, got repaired, and
>continued to fly missions over North Vietnam.
>
>Kind of incredible (actually, the detailed damage
>assessment, including Engines #1 and #3 being scrap,
>are at the Museum's web-site.. >target=_blank
>href="http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/factsheets/facts
>heet.asp?id=294">http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/facts
>heets/factsheet.asp?id=294
)

For those of us on the west coast (US), March Field Air Museum in Riverside CA has a wonderful collection of aircraft on display, including a B52D which is currently under restoration. They also have vast collections of aircraft related materials. It's well worth a visit
[> [> Subject: Re: Oldies but goodies


Author:
mike
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 22:40:43 04/02/15 Thu

I love warbirds of almost any age. When I graduated from Basic in 1969 they landed a DC-3 on the parade field at Ft. Polk in Louisiana and Trans Texas Airways, (nicknamed tree top airways) flew us to our new school at Ft. Walters, Texas. 20 some years later I saw several C-47s on the airfield in Istanbul that looked to still be in use.

When I was in Japan in 1980 the Blue Impulse, Japan's version of the Blue Angels, was still flying F-86 Sabre jets.

Some designs are just too good to die.
[> [> [> Subject: Re: Oldies but goodies


Author:
wexwiz543
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 23:43:51 04/02/15 Thu

>I love warbirds of almost any age. When I graduated
>from Basic in 1969 they landed a DC-3 on the parade
>field at Ft. Polk in Louisiana and Trans Texas
>Airways, (nicknamed tree top airways) flew us to our
>new school at Ft. Walters, Texas. 20 some years later
>I saw several C-47s on the airfield in Istanbul that
>looked to still be in use.
>
>When I was in Japan in 1980 the Blue Impulse, Japan's
>version of the Blue Angels, was still flying F-86
>Sabre jets.
>
>Some designs are just too good to die.

Another is the Boeing 737 still the work horse of many airlines. One of the few jets that can land on a gravel runway.

Wex
[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Oldies but goodies


Author:
Jon
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 21:56:15 04/05/15 Sun

>Another is the Boeing 737 still the work horse of many
>airlines. One of the few jets that can land on a
>gravel runway.

Possibly answering my own question: high mounted engine intakes are less able to inhale debris (pebbles or small rocks) that would damage the turbine blades?

Jon
[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Oldies but goodies


Author:
Lew
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 00:24:37 04/06/15 Mon

>>Another is the Boeing 737 still the work horse of many
>>airlines. One of the few jets that can land on a
>>gravel runway.
>
>Possibly answering my own question: high mounted
>engine intakes are less able to inhale debris (pebbles
>or small rocks) that would damage the turbine blades?
>
>Jon

The engines on the 737 hang under the wings. If it indeed is certified to use gravel runways there must be features Boeing designed in to make it possible.

Lew
[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Oldies but goodies


Author:
Mike
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 10:33:34 04/06/15 Mon

>>>Another is the Boeing 737 still the work horse of
>many
>>>airlines. One of the few jets that can land on a
>>>gravel runway.
>>
>>Possibly answering my own question: high mounted
>>engine intakes are less able to inhale debris (pebbles
>>or small rocks) that would damage the turbine blades?
>>
>>Jon
>
>The engines on the 737 hang under the wings. If it
>indeed is certified to use gravel runways there must
>be features Boeing designed in to make it possible.
>
>Lew

He was probably thinking of the 727, which has the engines high up on the tail of the aircraft.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Oldies but goodies


Author:
Jon
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 22:15:49 04/06/15 Mon

>>>>Another is the Boeing 737 still the work horse of
>>many
>>>>airlines. One of the few jets that can land on a
>>>>gravel runway.
>>>
>>>Possibly answering my own question: high mounted
>>>engine intakes are less able to inhale debris
>(pebbles
>>>or small rocks) that would damage the turbine blades?
>>>
>>>Jon
>>
>>The engines on the 737 hang under the wings. If it
>>indeed is certified to use gravel runways there must
>>be features Boeing designed in to make it possible.
>>
>>Lew
>
>He was probably thinking of the 727, which has the
>engines high up on the tail of the aircraft.

I was thinking of the 727.

Silly me, the 737 is dual engined, underslung from the wings.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Oldies but goodies


Author:
wexwiz543
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 10:41:06 04/06/15 Mon

>>>Another is the Boeing 737 still the work horse of
>many
>>>airlines. One of the few jets that can land on a
>>>gravel runway.
>>
>>Possibly answering my own question: high mounted
>>engine intakes are less able to inhale debris (pebbles
>>or small rocks) that would damage the turbine blades?
>>
>>Jon
>

There is a gravel kit option for the B737. See link below

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravelkit

wex
>The engines on the 737 hang under the wings. If it
>indeed is certified to use gravel runways there must
>be features Boeing designed in to make it possible.
>
>Lew
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Oldies but goodies


Author:
wexwiz543
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 09:47:14 04/16/15 Thu

>>>>Another is the Boeing 737 still the work horse of
>>many
>>>>airlines. One of the few jets that can land on a
>>>>gravel runway.
>>>
>>>Possibly answering my own question: high mounted
>>>engine intakes are less able to inhale debris
>(pebbles
>>>or small rocks) that would damage the turbine blades?
>>>
>>>Jon

More info on the 737 still being built

https://www.youtube.com/user/Boeing?v=jfSNj8HB_WI

Wex
>>
>
>There is a gravel kit option for the B737. See link
>below
>
> >href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravelkit">http://en
>.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravelkit

>
>wex
>>The engines on the 737 hang under the wings. If it
>>indeed is certified to use gravel runways there must
>>be features Boeing designed in to make it possible.
>>
>>Lew
[> Subject: Re: Oldies but goodies


Author:
mark farmer
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 18:47:38 04/08/15 Wed

>Another column lifted from the paper.
>
>I was swinging through one of the national news pages
>to see if I could kindle an idea for a column, and
>happened to notice that today is the sixtieth
>anniversary of the first flight of the B-52.
>
>The big bomber has been around for a long time.
>Although it first flew sixty years ago, the actual

back when Carswell was a SAC base (into the 80's), I can see those squadrons of 52's coming across the lake, reaching for altitude, into that October wind. Gathering leaves, I could almost believe that I could count the rivets as they thundered over.

talking to a neighbor one day, we would fall silent as a 52 demanded its acceptance. Then, he looked at me & laughed ... beats the hell out of red stars on those wings.
>roots of the design go back even further than that.
>The Air Force still has about ninety of them flying,
>and all of them are over half a century old, since the
>last of them were built in 1963. The big old bird has
>outlasted several newer planes, mostly because it has
>been proven fairly easy to upgrade and modify for a
>variety of missions over the years. At present, the
>Air Force plans to keep operating them until the
>2040s, which when you stop and think about it is
>pretty amazing for a combat aircraft.
>
>The part that really seems amazing is that the B-52
>was designed in a period when aircraft design was
>changing rapidly. In World War II, which wasn't very
>far in memory when the pencils for the B-52 first hit
>the drawing board, an aircraft a year or two out of
>date was a hazard to its crew from being so obsolete
>-- yet the B-52 has hung on forever.
>
>The B-52 is not the only aircraft out of the 1950s
>that has hung on forever doing just exactly the job it
>was expected to do, and no matter how much technology
>has changed, it still is nearly impossible to replace
>with something better. The C-130 was first conceived
>of in 1951 and first flew in 1954. They are still
>being built.
>
>The C-130 is pretty close to a universal airplane. It
>has done everything. Designed as a cargo plane, it has
>been used for just about anything that can be crowded
>into its cavernous interior, everything from gunship
>to hurricane hunter, spy plane to forest fire control,
>from bomber to tanker. Don't get me wrong -- it's a
>BIG airplane, and I know, for I was a passenger in one
>several times almost fifty years ago. But big as it
>was, that didn't keep the Navy with experimenting with
>flying them off a carrier deck. Although they decided
>to not go through with it operationally, they are
>still the biggest airplane to ever fly off an aircraft
>carrier.
>
>In the late 1960s the Air Force decided to explore the
>idea of a C-130 replacement and came up with the idea
>of a design competition. Lockheed entered the C-130 in
>the competition -- and won! Only now is the Air Force
>halfway serious about considering a C-130 replacement,
>and it probably will not go into production until the
>2040s, if at all.
>
>The U-2 reconnaissance aircraft, also a 1950s design,
>is still flying and will probably be well into the
>future. The Air Force also operates KC-135s, which
>were early model Boeing 707s, also dating from the
>1950s.
>
>It extends to helicopters, too -- the UH-1 "Huey" and
>CH-47 Chinook are both 1950s designs, and are still in
>active use. The Army is now phasing out the UH-1, but
>the venerable CH-47 is still in production, and there
>are other slightly younger designs that are coming up
>on their fiftieth anniversary.
>
>Old aircraft designs staying active for decades is not
>just a military thing, either. I can rattle off
>several civilian planes that are still in use -- and
>some still in production, after fifty and sixty years
>of service. It is not unusual for a single airplane to
>remain in use for forty or fifty years, with good
>maintenance and equipment upgrades as needed.
>
>The point that comes to me out of all this is that
>developments in aviation just aren't coming as fast as
>they once did -- but that once they get things right
>they might as well keep them right. Or, to say it in a
>different way, just because it's new doesn't
>necessarily mean that it's better. It's something we
>all ought to bear in mind.
[> Subject: Re: Oldies but goodies


Author:
Lew
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11:13:54 04/09/15 Thu



>The B-52 is not the only aircraft out of the 1950s
>that has hung on forever doing just exactly the job it
>was expected to do, and no matter how much technology
>has changed, it still is nearly impossible to replace
>with something better. The C-130 was first conceived
>of in 1951 and first flew in 1954. They are still
>being built.
>
>The C-130 is pretty close to a universal airplane. It
>has done everything. Designed as a cargo plane, it has
>been used for just about anything that can be crowded
>into its cavernous interior, everything from gunship
>to hurricane hunter, spy plane to forest fire control,
>from bomber to tanker. Don't get me wrong -- it's a
>BIG airplane, and I know, for I was a passenger in one
>several times almost fifty years ago. But big as it
>was, that didn't keep the Navy with experimenting with
>flying them off a carrier deck. Although they decided
>to not go through with it operationally, they are
>still the biggest airplane to ever fly off an aircraft
>carrier.
>
>In the late 1960s the Air Force decided to explore the
>idea of a C-130 replacement and came up with the idea
>of a design competition. Lockheed entered the C-130 in
>the competition -- and won! Only now is the Air Force
>halfway serious about considering a C-130 replacement,
>and it probably will not go into production until the
>2040s, if at all.



Vis-a-vis the C-130, here is a CNN article about it's long life:

http://www.cnn.com/2015/04/08/us/c-130-hercules-military-plane-anniversary/index.html
[> Subject: Re: Oldies but goodies


Author:
Robert Gallant
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 20:17:27 05/06/15 Wed

>Another column lifted from the paper.
>This just proves the old adage. If it works don't fix it.
>I was swinging through one of the national news pages
>to see if I could kindle an idea for a column, and
>happened to notice that today is the sixtieth
>anniversary of the first flight of the B-52.
>
>The big bomber has been around for a long time.
>Although it first flew sixty years ago, the actual
>roots of the design go back even further than that.
>The Air Force still has about ninety of them flying,
>and all of them are over half a century old, since the
>last of them were built in 1963. The big old bird has
>outlasted several newer planes, mostly because it has
>been proven fairly easy to upgrade and modify for a
>variety of missions over the years. At present, the
>Air Force plans to keep operating them until the
>2040s, which when you stop and think about it is
>pretty amazing for a combat aircraft.
>
>The part that really seems amazing is that the B-52
>was designed in a period when aircraft design was
>changing rapidly. In World War II, which wasn't very
>far in memory when the pencils for the B-52 first hit
>the drawing board, an aircraft a year or two out of
>date was a hazard to its crew from being so obsolete
>-- yet the B-52 has hung on forever.
>
>The B-52 is not the only aircraft out of the 1950s
>that has hung on forever doing just exactly the job it
>was expected to do, and no matter how much technology
>has changed, it still is nearly impossible to replace
>with something better. The C-130 was first conceived
>of in 1951 and first flew in 1954. They are still
>being built.
>
>The C-130 is pretty close to a universal airplane. It
>has done everything. Designed as a cargo plane, it has
>been used for just about anything that can be crowded
>into its cavernous interior, everything from gunship
>to hurricane hunter, spy plane to forest fire control,
>from bomber to tanker. Don't get me wrong -- it's a
>BIG airplane, and I know, for I was a passenger in one
>several times almost fifty years ago. But big as it
>was, that didn't keep the Navy with experimenting with
>flying them off a carrier deck. Although they decided
>to not go through with it operationally, they are
>still the biggest airplane to ever fly off an aircraft
>carrier.
>
>In the late 1960s the Air Force decided to explore the
>idea of a C-130 replacement and came up with the idea
>of a design competition. Lockheed entered the C-130 in
>the competition -- and won! Only now is the Air Force
>halfway serious about considering a C-130 replacement,
>and it probably will not go into production until the
>2040s, if at all.
>
>The U-2 reconnaissance aircraft, also a 1950s design,
>is still flying and will probably be well into the
>future. The Air Force also operates KC-135s, which
>were early model Boeing 707s, also dating from the
>1950s.
>
>It extends to helicopters, too -- the UH-1 "Huey" and
>CH-47 Chinook are both 1950s designs, and are still in
>active use. The Army is now phasing out the UH-1, but
>the venerable CH-47 is still in production, and there
>are other slightly younger designs that are coming up
>on their fiftieth anniversary.
>
>Old aircraft designs staying active for decades is not
>just a military thing, either. I can rattle off
>several civilian planes that are still in use -- and
>some still in production, after fifty and sixty years
>of service. It is not unusual for a single airplane to
>remain in use for forty or fifty years, with good
>maintenance and equipment upgrades as needed.
>
>The point that comes to me out of all this is that
>developments in aviation just aren't coming as fast as
>they once did -- but that once they get things right
>they might as well keep them right. Or, to say it in a
>different way, just because it's new doesn't
>necessarily mean that it's better. It's something we
>all ought to bear in mind.


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