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Date Posted: 16:55:43 05/18/99 Tue
Author: Daniel
Subject: Re: A different view
In reply to: Kevin 's message, "A different view" on 15:07:56 05/18/99 Tue

> Biblically it clears up many of the paradoxes of the
> Christian faith when you view time as a part of our
> universe and not a limitation of God. For instance
> the Trinity makes at least some sense once you accept
> God is not limited by time.

For the sake of argument, how does the Trinity make non-sense if limited by time?

As for God knowing the future I think that many paradoxes unfold, but when we realize that the future is an unfolding plan of God with the added complication of man's freewill.

> Free will and
> predestination are no longer contradictory terms when
> viewed in this way. When God creates that spark that
> is you, your entire life is known to Him, and yet from
> your perspective you are free to chose the path you
> will follow in life.

I hate to admit that Boethieus was right. He suggested a similiar equation as follows:

For A (Action) by B (Person) at C (specific time)
God knew A since eternity past, then only A by B at C can occur.

This is known as the Boethieus Principle. I present here because is a valuable theoreum that demonstrates that there really is no such thing as freewill or that God does not know the future.

Most "Christians" will say that just because God knows the future doesn't mean that we do not have freewill, he just knows what we will choose before we choose it.

As usual I will expand my proposition with the inclusion of biblical texts, something that none of you seem to consistently do.

I have a list of about 50 references where it appears that God does not know the future. You will have to step out of your comfort box to realize that the literal interpretation is very possible and the only consistent interpretation.

Here is the first verse of many:

Gen 22:12
12 And He said, "Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me."
(NKJ)

Before I post the extensive list, I would challenge you to recognize that several prophecies that were ordered by God did not come to pass and several promises to judge never occurred as God declared. Why?

Jonah 3:4
4 And Jonah began to enter the city on the first day's walk. Then he cried out and said, "Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown!"
(NKJ)

Were they destroyed?

Exod 32:12-14
12 "Why should the Egyptians speak, and say, 'He brought them out to harm them, to kill them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth'? Turn from Your fierce wrath, and relent from this harm to Your people.
13 "Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, Your servants, to whom You swore by Your own self, and said to them, 'I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven; and all this land that I have spoken of I give to your descendants, and they shall inherit it forever.'"
14 So the LORD relented from the harm which He said He would do to His people.
(NKJ)


If you read earlier passages God threatens to utterly destroy that which do not obey his will, God is determined to destroy Israel and then repents and does not destroy Israel. Why?

The key here is that God is a living God and that he interacts and learns from his creation. He honors forgiveness and destroys wickedness. He even answers prayer and supplications from man.

In the myriad of debates I have had with those that confess some form of Calvinism (pre-destination), the one question that so often stumpst them is...."Why pray?". So "Why pray?"

> When Adam was tested in the
> garden the outcome was already known, but the test was
> real. Adam could have chosen not to sin. God already
> knew he would. The question, "Adam where art thou?"
> is not asked because God did not know. It is for the
> purpose of causing Adam to see where he was. In
> addition, Scripture tells us Jesus was predestined to
> save us before time began. God knew. Still it brings
> up some interesting points.
>

The outcome was not known. If it was known then God's perfect will was that man would fall, and Jesus would suffer. As a matter of fact God knew before hand that he would fall, and so therefore He can be the one found wanting and in a court of law found equally guilty for a crime that he knew would occur before hand.

In addition to your other claims, I would recommend you support your claims with scripture. It helps the process significantly.

> How could God repent of making man if He already knew
> what man would become? God created our universe and
> all that is in it outside of time, including man.
> Yet, He chooses to interact with us in time. It is
> this decision that allows us to perceive Him at all.
> His repentance is outside of time, and at the same
> time there is a real moment in our history when God
> repents.
>

What evidence do you have to support your claim. Prove it biblically.

> Why can't we pray for our long dead relative's
> salvation? God is outside of time - we are not. For
> God to honor your request would mean that He had to
> violate the timeline of not only your relative, but
> all humanity, and even the universe. While it is
> possible He could do this, there is an important
> reason why He does not. This would be a direct
> violation of free will. God will not violate your free
> will.
>

How is preaching the Gospel one more time a violation of freewill? How is compelling man to reconsider his eternal position a violation of freewill? You compell people everyday to do your will.

Please provide evidnce to support your claim that freewill would be violated. If I pray for the salvation of a wicked man, do I violate his freewill? When God hardened the heart of Pharaoh, did God violate his freewill?

Daniel

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