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Date Posted: 14:46:48 05/27/99 Thu
Author: Kevin
Subject: Time continued

Daniel, I am moving the time debate to a new thread, as the old one was starting to run off my screen. I am typing this away from the board so I am sure I will not respond to all your questions. I am not intentionally avoiding them.

You made a comment in an earlier post, something about checking the history of YEC and noticing that there was no resistance to it prior to a couple hundred years ago. You wondered why that is. Hmmm.

Mostly, the tools did not exist to reveal the age of the earth until recently. The earth is old. Given Darwin, dinosaurs, the lack of physical evidence of the global flood, and prehistoric hominid fossils, it is no wonder many believers have felt compelled to hold firmly to YEC. But, and this is important, as I pointed out to you previously, many commentators of the past held that the days of creation were greater than 24 hour days (Martyr). Others held that the days were symbolic rather than literal as they contended that God created everything instantly (some held time did not exist until the third day - Philo). St. Augustine never really said what he believed except that the days of creation were somehow different than normal days - whatever that meant to him. Others bought into the Greek idea that the universe was eternal - they apparently did not see a conflict with Scripture (maybe they never read it?). Yes, others held the days were 24 hour days. The point is there was acceptance of differing views because no one was certain. That is why there was no resistance.

As for YEC, you are an exception, your views appear to be based on Scripture alone. Most YEC's I have encountered claim this, but the real heart of their faith is fear. Fear of evolution. Fear that science has somehow proved God does not exist. That is nonsense. Or the other extreme is their faith is based on pride - they are sooo much wiser than all those godless scientists. Both extremes are horribly wrong. What makes you far more challenging to debate than most is you actually know what you believe and why. That proves to me we have a lot in common. I don't agree with your position, but I salute you.

Considering our present topic, let me tell you a story. The last time I met someone as competent at debating as yourself was in our local Church a year or so ago. This fellow began attending, and quickly won everyone over. He could quote Scripture inside out, and up side down. He was very learned. He quickly moved into positions of power. Problem was he held some very incorrect views. He believed, for one, that God actually created some people for the purpose of burning in Hell. I know you think that is what I am saying - it is not. I tried and tried to talk to him. He kept demanding I was wrong. Many began to side with him. They would say his argument is so good and so Scriptural, he must be right. But he wasn't. Today he still holds his views but he no longer worships with us. He no longer worships with any local congregation. Seems he can't find one that is doctrinally good enough to call home. Sad. I still pray for his maturity.

Please do not misunderstand that story. In no way am I questioning your intentions, or your maturity. I do not know you well enough to have an opinion. The point was, though your argument sounds good and seems to be based in Scripture, it does not mean you are correct. It only means no one has ever convinced you you're wrong. You are wrong. The world is old.

As a matter of personal choice I have always avoided confrontation with YEC. On the public discussion boards it seems out of place. It makes it appear I am attacking a brother (or sister), something I do not want to do. The naturalist crowd is quite organized and seem more than capable of tearing the YE view apart. Instead I prefer presenting an alternative view of the evidence. One that accepts the Work and the Word of God as witness of His creation. I admit to taking a more antagonistic position with you, early on, because this is a closed debate and I perceived you were eroding the faith of a brother and a friend. I have no compassion for religious vipers. I also avoid the YEC debate because for all the hard work and research that goes into it, the return is negligible. As I said before, you will not change your position because of this debate. The change, if it comes, will be from a battle within yourself, not from without.

I am but a layman. I have only been working on the OE model for a couple years. I may still have holes in my theory - you haven't convinced me of any yet, but I'm sure they are there. Your model fails from the start. It may be a nice tight dogmatically correct view, but it is wrong. It is more dead than the fossils that prove it wrong. Since your view is dead, and you believe mine can not be supported with God's Word, where does this leave us? Should we question whether Scripture is really the word of God? God forbid. That was my starting point. I believed the Bible was not the word of God. I searched for meaning in life through various philosophies and religions, and found no purpose. To invent a purpose, I came up with a list of goals. I reached them all by the time I was 25. So again I saw no meaning. About this time, my former employer (a true religious viper - I pray he will see his error) began to use the Bible against me for his personal gain. There was no reasoning with him. But I had a plan. I would use the Bible against him! So I started reading it with zeal - and poor motives. God had a plan as well. The Spirit grabbed me hard and quick. I was on my knees in short order. I found the conflicts that kept me from accepting the Word (YEC for instance) were but man made doctrines. When I looked beyond them I was humbled and amazed at the truth of Scripture. I also lost my desire for revenge against my employer. It was replaced by love, and a deep sadness for his blindness. Never again will I be held captive by man or man made doctrines.

Why Pray? I had this debate with my Pastor as a new convert. His belief is that the purpose of prayer is to conform us to the will of God - we change, not God. I maintained prayer was a call for God to do a work that can not be done without Him. The fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. I figured if a man like me could pray and it didn't rain for 3 years, I should be able to pray for change in the physical and spiritual lives of those around me. I have seen some truly miraculous things happen as a result of that attitude. And yet, I find my Pastor was correct as well.

Now what you are really saying is why pray if God has already predestined your days. The problem is you misunderstand predestination - like the fellow at my church, you believe it means some people are created to burn. Nonsense. All your actions and reactions are your free will choice. You can decide to agree with me or disagree with me - your choice. God fellowships with us (seeks a relationship with us) in time, because as Richard pointed out, it is the only way we can relate to Him. Our lives are linear. Our decisions and their consequences are linear. God deals with us in a linear manner. If He limits Himself to the now is His choice. If He is limited in any way it is for the benefit of His creation.

Your Scripture about time in heaven; It does not surprise me to see proof of time in heaven. I see nothing in Scripture to lead me to believe otherwise. However, the heavenly realm was created not for God alone, but in order that He might have a relationship with the heavenly beings. I see no indication in Scripture that the angels are able to know the future. They proclaim only what they have been instructed to say (the Devil misuses his free will to speak profanely, and in the end it will carry no weight). They are limited by the Creator. They are limited by time, just as we are. They are apparently not limited by 3-D space in the same way as we. We can not see them, but we know they are there.

Does time before time have any meaning?; Yes. Our time is linear. Time in the heavenly realm God created for the angels is linear. Mathematically our time can be considered as a ray. It has an origin. At present it is considered to have no end in the forward direction. We do not know what time limitations God has, only that His time is not our time. If He has two time dimensions this would be represented as a plane, three dimensions - a cube or sphere. No matter how we represent God's time, when our time intersects it, the observed intersection is still a ray. That is how you can maintain the Bible writers did not know about multiple times, and yet we can say we do know. That is the nature of progressive revelation. God gives what we need when we need it. In this age of skepticism we need it. Yet it does not violate Scripture in any way, only our understanding of it.

But, I realize you are not likely to accept this teaching, so let's suppose for a moment I agree with you that God is limited to the now (I don't agree - I'm just supposing). How would this in any way limit the universe to 6,000 years of age? In no way would it, so this is a peripheral issue. One that has been argued by greater minds for years without resolution. If you believe God is only in the now, what do I care. Time to move on.

By the way, if radiometric dating was the only method of determining the age of the universe I would agree with you that we should be very cautious about accepting the data. But it is not the only method available. Besides, there are many different types of dating methods that when properly applied arrive at the same conclusion - the earth is old.

Peace

Kevin

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