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~The End~

While we may be lighthearted at times, the core mission of this MB is serious gay activism. While this is an online community, it is primarily a tool to disseminate information regarding the latest in gay rights issues. Unnecessary distractions are not only unwelcome, but will be removed at the discretion of the board administrators.

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"Proudly engaging others in tense, unproductive political arguments that break down into embarrassing exchanges of personal attacks since the year 2000!" (Just kidding!)
**Be cool**

Hate Crime Laws -- John, 10:32:11 06/10/03 Tue
I would just like to state why I agreed to discuss this topic with you and to present my views concerning Hate Crime Laws. I'm not here to dispararage or criticize anyone for their beliefs. We all form our opinions through our own personal experiences and what we learn from others; be it in school or from the media, or from other private sources. Sometimes we get bad information or we might misinterpret what we do hear. I try to keep an open mind in any discussion and learn whatever I can even if it doesn't persuade me to change my mind. It may give me an insight as to why other people believe as they do.
As our discussion progresses I'll go into more detail and give examples and sources for verification of the information I use.

My main objections to HCLs are very basic. 1.They are unfair and violate the 14th amendment of the Costitution, which guarantees equal protection under the law. 2.They accomplish very little in the punishing or deterring of criminal actions, just as the death penalty doesn't deter homicides in the states that have a death penalty. 3.They are designed to punish thoughts more so than actions, and 4.They single out groups of people, especially the gay community, and put them in the limelight for the anti-gay bigots and homophobes to use as targets of their hatred once again.
We can discuss them in any order and for any length of time it takes to show how damaging these laws are, and to lay out the facts for everyone to see, so they can decide for themselves if that is how they want their country to be run.

[ Post a Reply to this Message ][Edit]

Replies:

I'm looking forward to reading the opinions expressed on this subject. Welcome. (NT) -- Sergio, 16:07:15 06/10/03 Tue
For those of us not cognizant of things more recent than 1650 would you please post the 14th Amendment? -- Kris, 20:09:02 06/10/03 Tue

14th Amendment Section1 -- John, 23:55:34 06/10/03 Tue

I'm not a spokesperson. I'm not someone to argue with anyone. I know that I am not articulate, or educated, or informed enough to debate this with you. I'll leave that to Lance but I have very intense feelings about this issue. -- Chris, 00:56:24 06/11/03 Wed

Ditto to your subject -- Trevor/TJ, 01:14:14 06/11/03 Wed

Excuse me? You totally lost me with this post. Redheads? License plates? I'm not trying to be rude, and if I come across that way, please accept my apology, but I don't understand what any of that has to do with the sentiment expressed in Chris's heartfelt post? It seems to trivialize his feelings. (NT) -- Tom, 01:49:33 06/11/03 Wed

I agree with Tom. Whether or not you support Hate Crime Legislation, to throw out something like why not have laws to protect short people or redheads beneath a post that includes a picture of Matthew Shepard really offends me. When you think of the list of gay people, the list of black people, the millions of Jews, who have died because of hate, to joke about short people and redheads being equally persecuted? I'm sorry but it just seems like a very insensitive thing to say. (NT) -- Pepper, 02:23:37 06/11/03 Wed

I'm sure Trevor meant no offense to anyone. He's a real sweet heart and would never intentionally offend or insult anyone on this board and I'm sure he was as moved by Chris's post and Matthew Shepard's picture, as I was. *hugs everyone* I know that hate crimes are a difficult and emotional issue but lets all do the best we can and maybe we'll all learn something. (NT) -- Lance, 04:56:59 06/11/03 Wed

Trevor was not making a joke. He was simply saying as you draw lines between us and them the area between lines gets smaller and smaller. And pretty soon even redheads become a minority of their own. -- Kris, 11:08:57 06/11/03 Wed

If you look at the FBI's statistics on hate crimes you will see that certain very pronounced groups of minorities experience the majority of hate crimes in this country -- Sergio, 12:48:02 06/11/03 Wed

Sorry if I phrased it poorly -- Trevor/TJ, 12:25:32 06/11/03 Wed
who is tom whether? -- Pat Collins, 18:02:05 11/08/09 Sun

::hugs you back:: You and all the kids on here have my utmost respect. I want to say "Thanks" to every one of you. You're all heros in my book. (NT) -- Tom, 01:56:12 06/11/03 Wed
They should abolish HCL completely -- Khadgar, 15:11:31 06/15/03 Sun

"special rights"? Do you consider all civil rights laws regarding sexual orientation as "special rights" or is it just the HCL? What about marriage? What about equal employment opportunity laws? I'm just trying to figure out where you're coming from on this, and why it's in response to a high school kid who mourns Matthew Shepard and said he wasn't debating, he was just telling us how the kids at his school feel about it. Please enlighten me. (NT) -- Lance, 23:57:25 06/15/03 Sun

Question -- Khadgar, 11:23:43 06/16/03 Mon

and just who are HCL unfair to? The point of HCL's is to make sure current laws are enforced, that prejudice and hatred does not cloud or impede the investigation or prosecution of crimes that have been committed against minorities. Such laws exist to protect other minorities (ie African Americans, immigrants, Jews and other minority religions among others) and none of them have created a "special class" of citizens or violated anyone's Constitutional rights.... -- Drew Greyfox, 14:18:59 06/16/03 Mon

Again, no one reads -- Khadgar, 16:44:02 06/16/03 Mon

I did read, you said they create a "special class" of people, which is basically synonymous with "special rights"...and you did not answer my question, nor have you offered any facts or proof to back up any of your comments.... -- Drew Greyfox, 12:19:04 06/17/03 Tue

And by the way -- Khadgar, 15:24:11 06/15/03 Sun

Are you addressing this to Chris? (NT) -- Lance, 23:48:33 06/15/03 Sun

Chris, or -- Khadgar, 11:19:37 06/16/03 Mon

I am very sorry if I gave that impression. I was expressing my personal opinion about a Federal Hate Crime Law issue. I was not making a pesonal attack on anyone. I don't do that. (NT) -- Chris, 12:44:41 06/16/03 Mon

Uh huh.. -- Khadgar, 12:53:04 06/16/03 Mon

The core mission of this MB is serious gay activism. It is primarily a tool to disseminate information regarding gay rights issues. Further rudeness and/or personal comments from you are unwelcome and will be removed at the discretion of the board administrator. (NT) -- Sergio, 13:57:11 06/16/03 Mon

Interesting -- Khadgar, 14:11:06 06/16/03 Mon

By the way -- Khadgar, 15:11:20 06/16/03 Mon

Hmm... if I may weigh in here, I don't think you quite appreciate whats going on here, Khadgar (more) -- Bester, 16:33:31 06/16/03 Mon

Minor correction -- Khadgar, 17:03:41 06/16/03 Mon

Indeed, a minor correction. Lol one could almost say inconsequential. You didnt at all adress the substance of what I said. Semantics much? (NT) -- Bester, 17:38:41 06/16/03 Mon

Ah, you were expecting an argument? -- Khadgar, 18:05:27 06/16/03 Mon

I personally fail to see rudeness or personal insults in Khadgar's posts -- The Wolf, 16:37:49 06/16/03 Mon

Much like you? That�s the rude comment Sergio was talking about aside from your rude demeanor in every post you have made. It�s interesting that because Chris does not agree with you, his head is buried in the sand. I guess that makes you the authority on constitutional law? (NT) -- Mitchell, 16:32:28 06/16/03 Mon

Stunning -- Khadgar, 16:58:12 06/16/03 Mon

man, I can't believe this. {{{hugs chris}}} chris, ur my hero n i luv u (NT) -- -- :*~*:. .:*~*:. ..:*~*:. . { JASON } . .:*~*:. .:*~*:. :*~*:., 17:21:21 06/16/03 Mon

**hugs 4 chris** (NT) -- sean, 17:26:40 06/16/03 Mon
::group hug 4 chris:: (NT) -- andy, 17:58:08 06/16/03 Mon

Stick to the substance. Sarcastic bitchiness and ad hominem arguments add nothing to any debate. Be civilised. (NT) -- Bester, 17:41:51 06/16/03 Mon
chris ur the bravest guy i know n a hero 2 all of us {{{{{{{{{chris}}}}}}}}}}}}} (NT) -- jake, 17:43:32 06/16/03 Mon
Here's a hug from me too. I think not only Chris, but all of you kids are heros. (NT) -- Tiani, 19:05:48 06/16/03 Mon
Stunning? Why thank you!!! Usually a guy has to spend the night with me before they label me stunning!!! LOL!!! -- Mitchell, 22:08:16 06/16/03 Mon
I've never seen anyone tear into a gay kid like that on a gay rights forum. **hugs Chris** I have always admired you Chris, from the first time you showed up on this board asking for information on how you could start a GSA. You were shy and you were scared, but determined and you overcame enormous obstacles, backed the school board down, and got your GSA. You're one of the finest, bravest kids I have ever had the privilaged to meet. -- Dante, 00:33:20 06/17/03 Tue

I�ve been sick for a few days (nothing serious) and haven�t really felt up to posting in this thread. But before the thread disappears I just want to add something here. I�m putting it under Dante�s post cuz I�m going to steal one of his lines. I can�t say it any better. Chris as Dante said, you�re a class act all the way. (And one of the most courageous human beings I�ve ever run into). (NT) -- Dano, 13:20:36 06/17/03 Tue

Kids like Chris are on the front lines everyday. They are the heros. {hugs chris} I have one word for Chris. RESPECT. R-E-S-P-E-C-T -- Pepper, 01:28:45 06/17/03 Tue

�.,�,�.*,��*�`��*�"�)`'�.*,��*�`��(�`*�,�,.�*�*(�`'�.,(....::hugs Chris::....�,*.�*'��)�,*.�*'��)�`'*��*(�`'�.*,��*�`��)�`'�.,��* (NT) -- (�`'�.,�(�`'�.,��`��jErEmY��`��,.�'��)�,.�'��), 17:16:43 06/16/03 Mon

**************hugs chris********** (NT) -- mattie, 18:20:17 06/16/03 Mon

I will wait until Lance posts his comments before I participate. Where is Lance anyway? (NT) -- Pepper, 02:12:06 06/11/03 Wed

LANCE IS HERE! (Better late than never!) And now I'm going to bed! (NT) -- Lance, 04:58:32 06/11/03 Wed

�.,�,�.*,��*�`��*�"�)`'�.*,��*�`��(�`*�,�,.�*�*(�`'�.,(....::hides in lances bed heeeeeeeeeeeeeeee::... shhhhhhh.�,*.�*'��)�,*.�*'��)�`'*��*(�`'�.*,��*�`��)�`'�.,��* (NT) -- (�`'�.,�(�`'�.,��`��jErEmY��`��,.�'��)�,.�'��), 18:23:26 06/16/03 Mon

lmao in ur dreams ::crawls in with u:: whooooooo hooooo : )~ (NT) -- -- :*~*:. .:*~*:. ..:*~*:. . { JASON } . .:*~*:. .:*~*:. :*~*:., 18:36:02 06/16/03 Mon

::comes dancing in::Look at the stars, Look how they shine for you, And everything you do, Yeah, they were all yellow. I came along, I wrote a song for you, And all the things you do, And it was called 'Yellow.' -- Lance, 04:46:49 06/11/03 Wed

Back to you Lance -- John, 12:51:14 06/11/03 Wed
Question -- Khadgar, 21:47:56 06/15/03 Sun

Khadgar, -- Lance, 04:12:19 06/16/03 Mon

Interesting -- Khadgar, 11:14:13 06/16/03 Mon

Israel and Palestine? In a HCL discussion? Interesting indeed. LOL (NT) -- Markus, 13:47:06 06/16/03 Mon

Reading comprehension -- Khadgar, 14:14:54 06/16/03 Mon

Markus is a lawyer, be careful what you wish for lol. (NT) -- Mitchell, 21:36:19 06/16/03 Mon

There's no danger of Markus posting a lengthy reply to anything. He bills by the hour! LOL! (NT) -- Sergio, 23:53:45 06/16/03 Mon

Reading is fundamental (nt) -- Khadgar, 16:22:42 06/16/03 Mon

So are manners. (NT) -- Pepper, 01:31:33 06/17/03 Tue

It is a perfectly good example for hate and vengence and thus valid for this discussion. It's not something someone should laugh about in order to try to take away the value of the argument! (NT) -- The Wolf, 16:41:31 06/16/03 Mon

Gah! everyone keeps using shitty arguments! lol. "Israelis and palestinians kill each other so this shows that hcls will engender a culture of violence????" Uh, I don't think so. (more) -- Bester, 18:01:30 06/16/03 Mon

1991 - Phillip W. Smith -- Sheryl (Contemplative), 21:19:41 04/20/09 Mon

Right, my 2 cents. I don't support hate crimes as an initial measure. cos they don't work by themselves (more inside) -- Bester, 06:07:58 06/11/03 Wed

Ahem, Edward =P hehe... -- Mitchell, 08:41:35 06/11/03 Wed

I just finished a book by a black woman, who I "think" is gay. Anyway, she said that the only reason ANYONE cared about Matt Shepard's murder is because he was white. If he'd been black it would have just beeen another black teen lynched.. so sad. -- Kris, 11:20:27 06/11/03 Wed

Oh, I don�t know. Morehouse is an all black university, the boy who was attacked was black. The country seems to have sat up and taken notice. (NT) -- Mitchell, 21:42:58 06/11/03 Wed
No gay bashing will not disappear overnight because of hate crimes laws, just as hate crimes against others have not disappeared, but it is very important to do what can be done, even if it only reduces the number of crimes it is a worthy effort. As for the authors comments... -- Drew Greyfox, 12:30:28 06/17/03 Tue

Thank you Mitchell. Maybe your post will help people better understand why we need this law. (NT) -- Sergio, 13:00:40 06/11/03 Wed

I dont know why I bother to think.... Eddie says everything I am thinking and ten times MORE eloquent! Better education and better enforcement! (NT) -- Kris, 11:12:58 06/11/03 Wed
Bester, -- Sergio, 11:56:48 06/11/03 Wed

Notice to Lance-Sergio-Bester -- John, 13:35:49 06/11/03 Wed

John, I am so sorry. I should have been more careful in my wording. I didn't mean to imply that you or anyone else in this discussion are in any way like Fred Phelps in character, actions, words or thoughts. You seem like a very nice man, and I am mortified that I offended you. Please accept my sincerest apology. I am very sorry that I came across in such an offensive manner. (NT) -- Sergio, 17:05:53 06/11/03 Wed
With all due respect John, and no insult intended, you didn't exactly uphold the same high standard that you expect of others. You told Lance that in effect people who wanted HCL "appear to be whining individuals who are demanding special treatment, which they are" While I am pointing it out to you, I don't see anyone taking offense and yelling at you for it. -- Pete, 18:46:10 06/11/03 Wed
First off, if anyone is going to attack you it WON�T be Sergio. Sergio would never intentionally insult you. I know how big hearted he is and I�m sure he�s in agony for offending you. -- Mitchell, 21:09:14 06/11/03 Wed

BTW, I just found your other post. I'd like to add your own words, "How many times has any of us said things in the heat of an argument or fight that weren't really intended." (NT) -- Mitchell, 21:59:03 06/11/03 Wed

Wow... emotional blackmail much? -- Bester, 16:09:28 06/11/03 Wed

You heartless bitch!!! Don�t talk in �NZ context� to me!!! I�m an American Damn it! Until they find a way to grind up sheep and put them in my gas tank, you think I give a flying flip about some bump in the road, wana be Australia, country like NZ??? LMAO!!! -- Mitchell, 21:35:25 06/11/03 Wed

hey, aint no one grinding me! Lol. And you're probably right that my view would be different, but I still don't see how HCL protects! It punishes (which is good) after the fact. It doesnt protect. (NT) -- Bester, 21:47:28 06/11/03 Wed

Am I going to have to draw you a picture??? Don�t make me get out the crayons!!!! Cause I can tell you right now, IT WON�T BE PRETTY!!! (NT) -- Mitchell, 22:40:34 06/11/03 Wed

�.,�,�.*,��*�`��*�"�)`'�.*,��*�`��(�`*�,�,.�*�*(�`'�.,(....::steals ur crayons::....�,*.�*'��)�,*.�*'��)�`'*��*(�`'�.*,��*�`��)�`'�.,��* (NT) -- (�`'�.,�(�`'�.,��`��jErEmY��`��,.�'��)�,.�'��), 00:27:00 06/15/03 Sun

�.,�,�.*,��*�`��*�"�)`'�.*,��*�`��(�`*�,�,.�*�*(�`'�.,(....::Steals Jeremy�s ..... What is this stuff anyhow? Sparkles? ::....�,*.�*'��)�,*.�*'��)�`'*��*(�`'�.*,��*�`��)�`'�.,��* (NT) -- Mitchell, 01:16:29 06/15/03 Sun

jer lives in the swamp. its dirt. mitchell. rotflmao (NT) -- -- :*~*:. .:*~*:. ..:*~*:. . { JASON } . .:*~*:. .:*~*:. :*~*:., 18:39:54 06/16/03 Mon

Ohh I get it! Like Pigpen off The Peanuts!! LOL Gives it back to Jeremy. (NT) -- mItChElL LOL it just doesn't look as cool with my name!!!, 22:25:17 06/16/03 Mon

{{hugs sergio}} why are people being almost violent just because they dont agree about hate crime laws -- -- :*~*:. .:*~*:. ..:*~*:. . { JASON } . .:*~*:. .:*~*:. :*~*:., 16:56:00 06/11/03 Wed

Aww jason, I'd never yell at you. I'm sorry things have got a bit heated, I really didnt intend them to get that way. **hugz**. Maybe I'll take a little break from posting until things cool down, I dunno. I didnt mean to hurt anyone. (NT) -- Bester, 17:03:59 06/11/03 Wed
Jason... -- Pete, 18:15:13 06/11/03 Wed

Thanks Pete, good post. I agree that hate crimes legislation make an important political statement, but I still have to question their practical effect. (NT) -- Bester, 18:47:51 06/11/03 Wed

Hmph..interesting... -- Eddi, 04:22:27 06/15/03 Sun
Hmph..... -- Eddi, 04:34:20 06/15/03 Sun

Compare the attitude to women now to 50 years ago. Attitude to black people, asians, jews... its not perfect, but it has improved, and legislation CANNOT achieve that by itself. Education and social change is a HUGE part of it. Don't diss education. (NT) -- Bester, 18:05:30 06/16/03 Mon

yet, without the legislation. THe education might never starts. Without the law to desegreate, there are still a strong possiblity that US is still segregated. THe law will be a push to the educatoin to the btetter..and didn't we talk about this? the education of United states..hehe =) (NT) -- eddi, 00:42:00 06/19/03 Thu

lance is having computer problems and will respond as soon as he can (NT) -- crvboy, 09:43:50 06/11/03 Wed
Basically, I agree with John, and I can't say anymore than Bester already did. -- Alie, 15:47:33 06/11/03 Wed
Hey y'all...the "resident Republican" is seeking information...not participating in the debate. Can someone tell me just what a Hate Crimes Law provides? (NT) -- Geoff, 00:26:50 06/12/03 Thu

In broad terms, if the crime is hate motivated, ie, because the victim was black, Jew, etc., or in this case gay. Additional penalties are imposed. (NT) -- Mitchell, 00:39:11 06/12/03 Thu

I understand that, Mitchell, but what does it provide? Are there additional penalties, or such as that? (NT) -- Geoff, 01:15:57 06/12/03 Thu

HCL are different from state to state, city to city, which is another reason we need a uniform Federal HCL. (more) -- Lance, 08:53:42 06/12/03 Thu

ALSO... with a federal HCL ... -- Lance, 09:03:02 06/12/03 Thu

Oops...I didn't read it fully... -- Geoff, 01:18:46 06/12/03 Thu

Hate crimes are not necessarily murders, they also include things like attacks, beating, arson, or any crime that was hate motivated. (NT) -- Mitchell, 01:34:24 06/12/03 Thu

So what you are telling me is that Hate Crimes Laws are laws about motive,...am I understanding this correctly? (NT) -- Geoff, 01:47:41 06/12/03 Thu

I have another question, Mitchell... -- Geoff, 04:22:55 06/12/03 Thu

Hi Geoff. Thank you for your questions. Exchanging information is the whole point of this discussion. I'll try to answer them too. -- Lance, 07:52:30 06/12/03 Thu

::Comes dancing in:: My internet was out yesterday (and so was I. haha!) -- Lance, 09:49:04 06/12/03 Thu
Ok, I guess I owe it to all to explain my opinion on this subject. ... -- Geoff, 14:20:25 06/12/03 Thu

Hate crime laws do not prosecute anyone for what they say or think. (NT) -- Chris, 16:26:40 06/12/03 Thu

They don't? Hmmmm....according to what both Lance and Mitchell told me in this very thread, if a perpetrator uses such words while committing a horrible crime, then it becomes a Hate crime, and additional penalties apply. Mitchell said that in the Morehouse case, and additional five years could have been given. Thats prosecuting someone for what they say, as I see it.. (NT) -- Geoff, 17:32:55 06/12/03 Thu

Hate Crimes do not prosecute people for what they say. People do no get arrested for saying something therefore they are not prosecuted for what they say. Everyone has explained this many times.. (NT) -- Chris, 19:46:06 06/12/03 Thu

I have not read the board in days and have not read all the replies here so excuse me if I am repeating someone else, but...hate crimes laws DO NOT punish anyone for their thoughts, only their ACTIONS. You can think gay people should be killed all day long, but when you cross the line and act on that thought then you have broken the law... -- Drew Greyfox, 16:18:48 06/12/03 Thu

I don't see it that way, Drew. ... -- Geoff, 16:30:24 06/12/03 Thu

So you're worried about somebody being punished for their choice of words as they beat somebody to death? (NT) -- Drew Greyfox, 16:56:53 06/12/03 Thu

Seriously. Is this a reason for gay men to oppose a hate crime law? Would having a hate crime law in some way harm you Geoff? Because all of us at my high school want to see it passed very much. (NT) -- Chris, 19:51:13 06/12/03 Thu

Sorry Geoff, the point you made is simply legally incorrect... -- Bester, 17:42:59 06/12/03 Thu

Thank you Bester. That was very well spoken. (NT) -- Chris, 19:54:31 06/12/03 Thu
Sorry Bester, YOU miss my point entirely, or choose to...but that's your choice, and others. I've said all I'm gonna say. (NT) -- Geoff, 20:23:49 06/12/03 Thu

Awwww don�t get all pouty Geoff LOL! Did you not expect a dissenting opinion? LOL! -- Mitchell, 21:10:13 06/12/03 Thu

Mitchell, I sent you an email, but I've decided to post it here as well... -- Geoff, 21:25:08 06/12/03 Thu

Talked out?? Oh, we haven't even begun to talk about this issue. And trust, me, no one is trying to change anyone's minds. But the kids, the adults, who post and lurk here deserve to know exactly what this is about so that when some ignorant jerk at the family reunion starts in about it, they'll be armed to the teeth with some intelligent responses of their choice. heh heh Education is a wonderful and powerful thing. (NT) -- Lance, 01:34:34 06/13/03 Fri

You missed the point Lance...I said that *I* am talked out, not anybody else. (NT) -- Geoff, 07:01:52 06/13/03 Fri

Ok, I've expressed my opinion, and said all I'm gonna say about this. To each his own. Peace and love to all. (NT) -- Geoff, 17:35:27 06/12/03 Thu
Hate Crime Laws would lead to unequal protection! -- The average guy next door, 17:47:23 06/12/03 Thu

*grins* I wont comment except to say that your constant use of the word homosexual and putting 'gay' in inverted commas says a lot about your attitude towards gay people in general (NT) -- Bester, 17:59:42 06/12/03 Thu
Talk about bringing up arbitrary facts to make your point. No one is saying any crime against a homosexual is a hate crime. (NT) -- Mitchell, 20:42:55 06/12/03 Thu
Well I guess we're getting our daily allowance of misinformation today... -- Drew Greyfox, 14:37:53 06/13/03 Fri

Adding to Lance's post. -- Chris, 21:10:29 06/12/03 Thu

Adam Colton, a senior at San Marin High School in Novato, Calif., was attacked in the parking lot of a local supermarket on the evening of Feb. 12. Carved into the flesh of his stomach and arms with a pen was the word �fag.� It was the second time this school year that the 17-year-old student was attacked after forming the Gay-Straight Alliance on campus and declaring that he was gay. (NT) -- jErEmY, 22:13:43 06/12/03 Thu

awwwwwww *hugs* Don't get all sad on me jailbait. Cheer up little emo kid. (NT) -- Lance, 01:36:52 06/13/03 Fri

Chris. You did an awesome thing. I know how hard that was. I'm so damn proud of you. *hugs* (NT) -- Lance, 01:38:18 06/13/03 Fri

In reply to Johns response to my response to John's post HAHAAAA!! -- Lance, 01:29:10 06/13/03 Fri

Lance, you're so damn cute when you get all fired up! Heh heh. I must say, that was epic! I laughed, I cried, I think I saw God once or twice!! Thanks for the entertainment value and sharing your opinions! I know how shy you are about telling anyone what you REEEEALLY think! LOL!! You've just a wild man, Lance! BTW - I particularly enjoyed the ENORMOUS TOOL and whip parts! yeee hah! ROTFLMFAO! (NT) -- Markus, 15:14:40 06/13/03 Fri

John, I'd just like to say welcome. It looks like you have an admirer in our resident rawk star! Lucky you! You know, all that teasing and argument is just foreplay to Lance! LOL! If he gets too sassy, I recommend handcuffs!! They'll work wonders on an attitude adjustment for him! LMAO! J/k I just wanted you to know that I particulary enjoyed both your opening and your response. I like the way you present your information. -- Markus, 15:30:39 06/13/03 Fri

I hestitate to post this cos I don't want to offend anyone, so I'll apologise in advance if I do (more) -- Bester, 03:11:37 06/13/03 Fri

It does offend me. For you to put in quotes as though one of us actually said "all thiese people died form hate crimes, so we should have HCL" offends the Hell out of me. You show me where ANYONE on this discussion said that? HERE IS WHY WE SHOULD HAVE HCL. Read it carefully one more time. I'm not trying to change your mind, but by God, don't misquote me or Chris. -- Lance, 09:31:21 06/13/03 Fri

I mailed you saying why I said what I did, and I hope you understand. From now on, I promise to stick to substance, lol. (NT) -- Bester, 17:21:38 06/13/03 Fri

Some of the people who posted that oppose HCL say everything would be fine if the laws we currently have were enforced but they don't give any information on how they expect that to happen. I'd really like to hear HOW they expect laws to be enforced with homophobic policemen? (more) -- Pepper, 14:34:59 06/14/03 Sat

Tragic cases, no doubt about that, and the conduct is indefensibe, but how would a Hate Crime Law have prevented these? (NT) -- Geoff, 15:10:37 06/14/03 Sat

Your missing the point now Geoff. What she is saying is, without federal oversight, who is going to force a homophobic police department to enforce existing laws when committed against a gay person? (NT) -- Mitchell, 15:30:45 06/14/03 Sat
Here's how... -- Pepper, 15:53:54 06/14/03 Sat

Hmmm...Sounds ideal, but I doubt it would deter anyone who is so disposed. Besides, we already have such a Federal Law, its called Violating the Civil Rights of a citizen. that hasn't had much effect on such horrible actions by hateful people. (NT) -- Geoff, 16:04:19 06/14/03 Sat

I totally disagree. Knowing that the victim can contact the FBI and initiate a full scale federal investigation will most certainly detere a lot of potentional gay bashing policeman especially in small rural areas where the victim has no one to turn to. But also in large corrupt city police depts. where gay bashing has been an accepted way of life for decades. I have a question for you. -- Pepper, 16:46:23 06/14/03 Sat

Why? Because IMO it is unnecessary, and unequal. ALL crime is horrible, not just SOME crimes. .. -- Geoff, 17:53:29 06/14/03 Sat

Unnecessary? Thought control? Please explain and educate everyone. (NT) -- Pepper, 21:39:30 06/14/03 Sat

And please respond to my earlier post: Please explain to me how having a Federal Hate Crime Law would affect your life in a bad way. I'd really like to know. (NT) -- Pepper, 21:42:27 06/14/03 Sat

Pepper, how such a law would affect me personally is irrelavant. But to me, the law is immutable, and must apply to all equally. If you can't grasp that concept, that's your problem. (NT) -- Geoff, 13:40:23 06/15/03 Sun

It's my problem? LOL Well, that's a convenient way to evade a direct answer. You still did not answer anything that I asked you. Surely you know the answers so, why not share with them with everyone instead of telling me it's my "problem" that I don't understand why you are making these statements? Lance and others patiently answered your questions, and you had quite a few. Why won't you answer mine? -- Pepper, 17:18:19 06/15/03 Sun
That's wasnt a very nice thing to say to Pepper. Lets all be nice, shall we? Hate Crime Laws do apply to everyone equally regardless of race, religion, or sexual identity. As Princess Eddi pointed out, everyone has a racial identity, a religious identity, and a sexual identity, even white, straight, fundamentalists. (NT) -- Markus, 17:38:27 06/15/03 Sun

At the risk of beating a dead horse, hate crimes laws have NOTHING, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with "thought control"... -- Drew Greyfox, 17:30:39 06/18/03 Wed

I'm sorry, but your "facts" are fiction -- The Wolf, 20:07:44 06/18/03 Wed

Thats interesting that you think politicians would go to so much trouble to secure a minority of votes. And as I have already said several times, certain murders ARE more severe then others... -- Drew Greyfox, 10:58:01 06/19/03 Thu

The question has to be whether in an environment with homophobic police, will a potential hate crime be reported as such? If the initial investigation is deliberately biased, the feds will never become involved, and HCL cannot and will not stop individual prejudice within the police force. (NT) -- Bester, 15:43:50 06/14/03 Sat

The victim won't have to report it to the police. With a Federal Hate Crime Law, they can report it directly to the FBI. (NT) -- Pepper, 15:56:51 06/14/03 Sat

Exactly. With LLEEA once the state has completed prosecution (or declined to prosecute), the Justice Department can initiate a subsequent prosecution. (NT) -- Dante, 16:04:18 06/14/03 Sat

...Ok, sorry, lol. A little hard for a non-federalist to grasp that first up... but there is still the question of homophobia within the FBI, is there not? (NT) -- Bester, 18:43:46 06/14/03 Sat

Put your mind at ease on that accout honey! They're not rent-a cops! They are professionals all the way. The Feds are the Feds. They will do the job they are trained to do like attack dogs patrolling a drug kingpin's warehouse! LOLOLOLOL (NT) -- Sprite, 21:34:40 06/14/03 Sat

I had to run an errand Lance. Here's my my opinion. -- TheEggman, 18:06:05 06/14/03 Sat

Oh Honey, I just love what you said, "Well excuse the fuck out of me for living and loving someone! " Amen! (NT) -- ~*~Spritey~*~, 21:45:00 06/14/03 Sat

�.,�,�.*,��*�`��*�"�)`'�.*,��*�`��(�`*�,�,.�*�*(�`'�.,(....heeeeeeeeeeeeee. ::hugs::...�,*.�*'��)�,*.�*'��)�`'*��*(�`'�.*,��*�`��)�`'�.,��* (NT) -- (�`'�.,�(�`'�.,��`��jErEmY��`��,.�'��)�,.�'��), 00:07:03 06/15/03 Sun

hmph... -- Eddi, 04:28:42 06/15/03 Sun
Counter... -- Eddi, 04:50:48 06/15/03 Sun

Eddi you make an excellent point in #4. Everybody has a sexual orientation. Everybody has a race just as everybody has a religion (or they are atheists) that means that EVERYONE is protected under these hate crime laws! The Princess has just added a whole lot more ammo to the argument in favor of HCL. (NT) -- Markus, 11:54:10 06/15/03 Sun

In regard to gay bashing by police I wanted to share the following story. I8 year old boy assaulted by off duty police officer who called him "faggot" as he inflicted a severe beating on the 115 pound teen ager. -- Dan, 17:31:03 06/15/03 Sun

Dan, I agree with you completely.... -- Geoff, 17:41:38 06/15/03 Sun

Nothing tackles homophobia better than having the FBI come in and send half of them off to prison for a few years. Best �training� I can think of! (NT) -- Mitchell, 23:06:31 06/15/03 Sun
Without an investigation from an independent law enforcement agency with power over this dept. who will ever MAKE them own up to this crime, much less give them "training"? Exactly how do you envision getting these entire homophobic police depts to take "training"? Do you think homophobic cops will just volunteer to take training on how to not beat the shit out of gay kids? And the "orientation" of the victim was the reason for the crime so its not "regardless." It's VERY relevent. (NT) -- Lance, 02:26:59 06/16/03 Mon

You see. The entire police dept. is implicated. With a federal HCL the FBI would be there investigating instead of leaving the victims attorney pleading for state and local police to PLEASE investigate. How can they investigate themselves when they are being named as defendants? That's just too ridiculous for words. They need an impartial federal investigation, not the good old boy's club covering everything up, destroying evidence, and closing ranks. (NT) -- Pepper, 17:44:55 06/15/03 Sun

Ok, I can see how giving federal oversight works in the US context. It would be an effective measure. But it wouldnt stop the bias of the police for at large. Again, my argument is that HCL will not work BY ITSELF. It needs to be combined with a concerted movement for societal change, and probably police training practices as well (NT) -- Bester, 18:18:14 06/16/03 Mon

I think everyone who is for HCL totally agrees with you that HCL will not work by themselves. (NT) -- -- :*~*:. .:*~*:. ..:*~*:. . { JASON } . .:*~*:. .:*~*:. :*~*:., 18:45:49 06/16/03 Mon

Actually, no. I can point to at least 2 posts that state education is unrealistic and won't work. (NT) -- Bester, 18:56:03 06/16/03 Mon

oops my bad! lol ok most everybody will agree. hows that? n e way i agree. lol lol (NT) -- -- :*~*:. .:*~*:. ..:*~*:. . { JASON } . .:*~*:. .:*~*:. :*~*:., 19:28:08 06/16/03 Mon

Lol, cool jason. Thanks :). (NT) -- Bester, 19:38:22 06/16/03 Mon

FBI Guidelines. The FBI Hate/Bias Motivation Guidlines to law enforcement agencies for determining what constitutes a hate crime: -- Robb, 07:42:53 06/16/03 Mon
A couple people were looking for this information earlier. A perfect example of where a Federal HCL could have been useful was in the Matthew Shepard case. -- Sergio, 14:21:54 06/16/03 Mon
Why do we need a specific Hate Crime Law? -- The Wolf, 15:13:07 06/16/03 Mon

��.,�,�.*,��*�`��*�"�)`'�.*,��*�`��(�`*�,�,.�*�*(�`'�.,(....::gives a cookie to the wolf::....�,*.�*'��)�,*.�*'��)�`'*��*(�`'�.*,��*�`��)�`'�.,��* -- (�`'�.,�(�`'�.,��`��jErEmY��`��,.�'��)�,.�'��), 16:57:11 06/16/03 Mon

Rich and I have been following the discussion with great interest for days, and I'm sad to see it disrupted by one or two individuals. We have found it to be very informative on both sides of the issue. I personally to do not favor HCLs in general, but until they are repealed, I believe gays should be included. (NT) -- Mike, 18:12:07 06/16/03 Mon
Why? Why? Why? -- John, 18:35:13 06/16/03 Mon

you asked for the debate..and debate is two side argument. And i have not seen any facts that you stated, no stats nor quotes. If you don't mind you can point out which post is it. And the truth you believe in is not the ultimate truth..if you think what you believe is right then don't even bother with debating because its pointless. And calm down. (NT) -- eddi, 18:52:54 06/17/03 Tue

John gave quite a few facts in his early posts, but unfortunately he became a victim of something that happens quite often on this board -- The Wolf, 22:23:26 06/17/03 Tue

fuck off asshole (NT) -- wolfie, 22:47:17 06/17/03 Tue

Sweet ... I'm pretty sure the IP of this post matches the IP of some other posts in this discussion (NT) -- The Wolf, 19:34:01 06/18/03 Wed

Thanks Wolf- I appreciate the kind comments. Wish there were others that were as civil. (NT) -- John, 04:39:25 06/18/03 Wed

To Eddie with my deepest sympathy for the loss of your sight -- John, 23:50:26 06/17/03 Tue

...im...blinnnnnnnnnnnnd.....and *look whos talking!* that comes from someone who can't even spell my name right!..hahha -- EDDI......not eddie..not ed..but EDDI, 05:04:21 06/18/03 Wed
OH and by the way, Mr. John. Why don't you try to counter MY ARGUMENT listed up there..yeah look up..scroll up..ailttle more..you see the one says COUNTER. YEAH..thats it....good job! (NT) -- Eddi...not eddie!..or ED..or EDI!, 05:20:32 06/18/03 Wed

Here's an article that I thought everyone might find interesting. -- Tiani, 19:03:04 06/16/03 Mon

According to Judy Shepard, "I can assure opponents of this legislation firsthand, it was not words or thoughts, but violent actions that killed my son." (NT) -- -- :*~*:. .:*~*:. ..:*~*:. . { JASON } . .:*~*:. .:*~*:. :*~*:., 19:13:31 06/16/03 Mon

And those violent actions are already against the law, aren't they? So why create a new law? (NT) -- The Wolf, 19:59:29 06/16/03 Mon

Well according to Cmdr. David O'Malley of the Laramie, Wyo., Police Department, who worked on the investigation -- Sergio, 20:10:36 06/16/03 Mon

As I said in my other post, the police has to be better trained, educated and above all paid! Then they will also be more motivated to prosecute crimes and enforce the existing laws! (NT) -- The Wolf, 21:04:31 06/16/03 Mon

What Sergio is saying is the police department didn�t have the money to pay the investigators. The county that I live in is a good example of this. The sheriff�s department has been begging for more money for years. The county commissioners are afraid that if they raise property taxes to properly fund the sheriff�s department, they won�t get reelected. (NT) -- Mitchell, 21:34:24 06/16/03 Mon
How to train the police? smear the donuts over the book, maybe they can catch a few words while they are licking....a very lame joke from eddi..not ed, not edi, not eddie..but EDDi (NT) -- EDDI, 05:06:47 06/18/03 Wed
Sensitivity training and extra pay does nothing to motivate prejudiced and hateful individuals and departments in law enforcement to follow the law... -- Drew Greyfox, 14:52:34 06/18/03 Wed

I said it before, I'll say it again -- The Wolf, 15:08:27 06/18/03 Wed

I also said it b4, and I will say it again -- Eddi, 01:22:09 06/19/03 Thu
not true -- Drew Greyfox, 11:18:09 06/19/03 Thu

Here's an article that isn't about HCL. It's just about Matthew Shepard. Maybe some would like to read it. It's very sad. Sobbing Shepards Reject Henderson Apology -- -- :*~*:. .:*~*:. ..:*~*:. . { JASON } . .:*~*:. .:*~*:. :*~*:., 19:32:01 06/16/03 Mon
Just thought i'd jump in now that everybody's good and damned tired of talking about this...lol. *John, please read this. seriously* -- Josh, 01:02:29 06/18/03 Wed

Josh, a voice of reason.... -- John, 03:32:24 06/18/03 Wed
Josh, a voice of reason.... -- John, 03:33:32 06/18/03 Wed
CRY ON!!! BITCH!...=P..*hugz joshie..*.. u know I love ya! =) (NT) -- Once again, EDDI, not eddie, nor ed, or edi..., 05:09:52 06/18/03 Wed
You are SUCH a liarmouth!! And you KNOW it! I totally kicked your ass on the last HC debate and when all the smoke cleared, you were FOR hate crime laws now you ...you...you're undecided?? Did you backslide or what? Are we going to have to do some all night IM discussions? Am I going to have to interrupt your sex life? Don't think I wont! ::in my best Samuel Jackson voice:: Don't make me have to come down there and get medieval on yo ass! (more) -- Lance, 09:00:41 06/20/03 Fri

"...attorney general/rawk star-in-chief..." Like hell! You'll be first lady!!! (NT) -- Mitchell, 14:21:06 06/20/03 Fri

Come to think of it I want to be appointed to something! I want a job where I don�t actually have to �do� anything. Just have a really sweet office, and interns. Lots, and LOTS of hot, slutty interns!! (NT) -- Mitchell, 14:33:45 06/20/03 Fri

Adding to the elephant. -- Lamar, 22:45:20 06/18/03 Wed

my thoughts.... -- Eddi, 00:01:03 06/19/03 Thu

A car accident is not a violent crime and won't be prosecuted as one (unless it was an intentional hit, then it would probably be an attack with a deadly weapon) -- The Wolf, 00:50:13 06/19/03 Thu

Equal protection of the law protects everyone under the crime but it does not protect crime committed based on discimination. Someone can kill someone because of wrong place wrong time, or he can be disciminating him being white and planned the murder. With your rational, they shall be charge with the same crime. Matthew Sheapard would be alive or not, I do not know. Possiblity is he will still be killed. ..(more) -- Eddi, 01:29:25 06/19/03 Thu

OH shut the hell up eddi, you're blind as a bat! HAHAHAAAAAAA! (NT) -- Lance, 08:18:16 06/19/03 Thu

Welcome Lamar -- -- Dano, 10:30:17 06/19/03 Thu
OMG Lance!!!!! You invited another one??? Have you not learned your lesson??? LMAO!!! It�s my job to administer the newly required mental stability examination. Please remove all your clothes and lie back in the couch. LMAO!!! -- Mitchell, 10:40:10 06/19/03 Thu

LMAO! smart ass! (NT) -- Lance, 10:43:00 06/19/03 Thu
MENTAL STABILITY EXAMINATION! ROTFLMAO. No problem. I can fake normal for short periods of time! LOL (NT) -- Lamar, 23:30:25 06/19/03 Thu

Hey, you're already one step ahead of Lance then LOL (NT) -- Drew Greyfox, 11:18:37 06/20/03 Fri

Re: adding to the elephant.... HAHAHAAAA! Hey I got your elephant right here mister. -- Lance, 10:40:26 06/19/03 Thu

This is just a minor point -- Josh, 11:33:57 06/19/03 Thu

OK. It's a political philosophy not to have any more laws. The last time I heard that old "live and let live" bullshit was during "The Laramie Project." Keep repeating it to yourself while someone's beating you to death while you're tied to a fence and you'll see that not everyone else suscribes to it. It's like the people in Iraq joining hands and singing "Give Peace A Chance" while bombs are dropping all around them. I mean come on! -- Lance, 08:08:15 06/20/03 Fri

Did you just offer me a naked pic? I think I'm liking this debate thing more all the time! LOL (NT) -- Lamar, 23:17:25 06/19/03 Thu

HAHAHAAAAAAAA. Is that it?? I write all that stuff and the ONLY THING you got out of it is the possibility of a naked pic? HAHAHAHA. Good God! Why me Lord? hahahaaa (NT) -- Lance, 08:01:19 06/20/03 Fri

Hi there. Welcome to the board. I'm doing a lot of surfing today so I'm gonna jump right in and give my rebuttal to your post... -- Drew Greyfox, 12:01:16 06/19/03 Thu

I think somebody asked to see some studies...... -- E.J., 22:09:15 06/19/03 Thu
Thank all of yall for the welcome. I figured any friends of lance's are gonna be cool even if he's so lame an such a total loser. lol. He couldnt argue his way out of a paper bag! I'm gonna answer all yall's questions sooner or later but mos likey later lol so just hold on an be patient an i'll git to ya maybe. -- Lamar, 23:11:27 06/19/03 Thu

Nice theories, but not based in much fact... -- Drew Greyfox, 11:54:36 06/20/03 Fri

Repeating your arguments and "facts" again and again doesn't make them right -- The Wolf, 13:23:30 06/20/03 Fri

So show me the facts Wolf, show me real examples that prove that HCL's violate free speech or Constitutional rights. So far I've only heard theoretical arguments against them with very little or no actual proof... -- Drew Greyfox, 14:03:01 06/20/03 Fri

OK Drew, I'll take you up on that (more) -- Bester, 17:10:37 06/20/03 Fri

Hope you don�t mind if I jump in here for a sec Bester & Drew. (more) -- Dano, 19:45:30 06/20/03 Fri
well... -- Tom, 20:57:57 06/20/03 Fri

I have no hard facts on professionalism or otherwise of the FBI. I'm not American, I don't know. My point is simply that legislation cannot combat individual homophobia within a police force, and that its simply incorrect to say that it can. I would also make the point that FBI oversight is not a universal panacea for all ills (more) -- Bester, 02:21:48 06/21/03 Sat

I'm sorry if I upset you. No one is suggesting that a HCL is the universal panacea for all ills or that it will totally eradicate homophobia in police forces, I'm merely saying that it will help not hinder. It's a big step in the right direction. I believe everything Lance listed to be true. Since you disagree, then maybe you know something I don't know. I'm sorry if I upset you for asking. I was just trying to understand why you believe as you do. I apologize. (NT) -- Tom, 11:13:16 06/21/03 Sat

LOL *hugs* No, I'm not upset, Tom :). I was just making the point that facts were offered to back up beliefs but havent been forthcoming... Doesnt mean my belief is any more valid than yours :) (NT) -- Bester, 17:41:25 06/21/03 Sat

who and what facts are you talking about? was it me? haha. I have ADD so you have to remind me if I promised something and I didnt do it. So, if it's me, just point out the post and I will reread and try to do it, when I get some time. I gotta work tonight. Just DJ'ed all day and now I'll be at the club until the wee hours. Post it or send me a mail if its me. *hugs* (NT) -- Lance, 20:28:21 06/21/03 Sat

Lance has the attention span of a mosquito on crack! LOLOLOLOLOLOL (NT) -- *~*Sprite*~*, 16:59:04 06/22/03 Sun

I thought it was a goldfish on speed, spritey, lol. And no lance, I wasnt talkin bout you, as we discussed on AIM. (NT) -- Bester, 20:27:38 06/22/03 Sun

gay HCL's simply add certain people to an already existing law, which after decades has not produced the situations, violations, and other problems that are being predicted... -- Drew Greyfox, 13:08:08 06/23/03 Mon

Just a question...On the Department of Justice web site, they show a definition of hate crimes which includes sexual orientation. Is this just a misprint or what? -- E.J., 19:42:17 06/20/03 Fri

I doubt that it�s a misprint E.J. Maybe they just took that definition out of a dictionary. I don�t know why sexual orientation is included. I�m tempted to send them an email and ask about it. (more) -- Dano, 20:11:24 06/20/03 Fri
A bit farther down the page is this statement: "In September 1994, Congress also enacted a Federal hate crime penalty enhancement statute (Public Law 103-322 � 28003), which would increase the penalties for Federal crimes where the victim was selected "because of the actual or perceived race, color, religion, national origin, ethnicity, gender, disability, or sexual orientation of any person." http://www.usdoj.gov/crs/pubs/htecrm.htm (NT) -- E.J., 21:40:18 06/20/03 Fri

Getting a little complicated for me but I�ll give my take on it. Hopefully someone more knowledgeable than I am will explain, for sure, what�s going on here.. I�ve got a feeling what you quoted is applicable only in cases where the �federally protected activity requirement� of the existing federal hate-crime law comes into play. Most hate-crimes against gays wouldn�t fall into this category (i.e. voting etc.) (NT) -- Dano, 22:24:56 06/20/03 Fri

From the FBI's web site: Although the Hate Crimes Statistics Act of 1990 (amended in 1994 and 1996) defines a hate crime as a crime against a person or property motivated by bias toward race, religion, ethnicity/national origin, disability, or sexual orientation, the FBI does not have any federal jurisdiction to investigate hate crimes motivated by a sexual orientation bias. Some stats inside....... -- E.J., 22:29:01 06/20/03 Fri

Is it fairly safe to say that on the issue of HCL, (gay) people fall into two categories: -- Sergio, 16:34:31 06/22/03 Sun

I'm for anything that will help stop violence against gays. From reading all the arguments, for and against, I think a federal HCL would help more than hinder. (NT) -- Jean, 17:08:08 06/22/03 Sun
Well, fair summary of mine anyway serge. Yes indeedy, lol. (NT) -- Bester, 06:31:57 06/23/03 Mon

Just remember, be safe. The most dangerous month for homosexuals, statistically speaking, tends to be June, a month when hundreds of gay pride parades and festivals are held across the country. (NT) -- Jean, 17:05:15 06/22/03 Sun

crzy house -- E.J., 11:05:51 09/14/08 Sun
Is Crzy House gone......the new site seems to have disappeared

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