Sex and violence in books, and the American attitude � caution, I am ranting!*G* -- Spirit World

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Date Posted: 04:18:32 08/27/03 Wed
Author: Martina
Subject: Sex and violence in books, and the American attitude � caution, I am ranting!*G*

I have a very direct question to all North Americans. I don�t mean to offend anybody, just seeking an answer to something that crosses my path over and over again.

Background story:
On another board was a discussion about the vampire books from Laurell K. Hamilton. There is a lot of slaughtering, blood and sex in those, and they are placed in some stores under books for young people.

I noticed that most of the Americans get upset about that, but mainly because of the sex than for the violence!
What�s up with that? Why is sex in American minds such a bad thing that they feel like having to protect their kids from? Sex is a natural thing, a wonderful thing too, and doesn�t harm anybody, whereas violence is a much more important thing to protect kids from, IMHO.

Why are so many people in America more appalled about the idea their kids read about two people making love, than if they would read about slaughtering, evil mind games, killing, and such?

I also had posted over there the other day about some country differences between Europe and America, and mentioned that we have naked people on TV in general, and someone found my list interesting, but wasn�t �sure� about the sexual openness. I am asking you, what the heck is bad about seeing people naked? I didn�t speak of porn, and that was clearly understood too. Nevertheless Americans don�t like their kids to see someone naked.

Why is that so?

Did the catholic church brainwash people that efficient? Are we back to Adam and Eve here, to original sin? Is that still that much in peoples minds in these modern times? Apparently so.

Anyway, it makes me sad to see how violence is stated as less dangerous than sex. There is something wrong with that, right? When JS was on a business trip in Washington he stood on the sidewalk and saw a car passing by that had one entire side punctured with bullet holes!!! A sight like that Americans find normal, but a naked breast on TV would shock them???
Well, that is just something Europeans don�t understand.*lol*

I appreciate your honest opinion!

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Replies:

[> I also wonder why the original religion developed so much different on the continents, because over here even catholics are much more open to sex. Strange, hm? -- Martina, 04:38:00 08/27/03 Wed

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[> [> Martina, that's a good question, America is made up of so many nationalities that it's hard to say where a certain attitude originated from. My father's family is German and Polish, my mother's background is Irish and French Canadian and myself I am a mix of French, English, German and Polish. *BG!* I think each of these groups brought some of themselves and their beliefs into America and we kind of melded together to form a common ground although there are still many many differences between us. More inside.... - -- Linda, 11:53:31 08/27/03 Wed

When you say that Americans have a certain attitude about 'sex' I agree and disagree. On the one hand, I do agree that many of us are much more private and protecting of the naked body. To a fault I think. I think Colly did a good job of explaining it below, it comes down to intentions and wanting to keep our children innocence. I'm sure for some religion must factor into it as well. But on the other hand I look around and see SEX everywhere - in our magazines, advertising, tv commercials, music, tv shows, movies etc. and I wonder if we are really as reserved about it as you might think? I'll say I am seeing more nudity on tv where there never was before, seems as if in the last 5 years or so there have been quite a few nekkid arse's on tv in prime time that have surprised me. haha! I also see _a lot_ of concern about the level of violence our children are exposed to so I'm not quite a believer in your theory that we are more hung up on one than the other. I think it depends on each person, family and/or group. We are a very diverse country! :)

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[> Hmmm, a lot to ponder Martina! lol Yes, Americans are hung up on the naked body, I have no idea why. However I think it's important not to jump to any assumptions - I'll put more inside....... -- Linda, 08:02:29 08/27/03 Wed

Martina, I'm not sure how to explain this but I am going to try. :)

I think it's important not to lump Americans into a certain stereotype based on an individual experience. That would be like saying all German's are Nazis when we know that is far from the truth.

JS had an experience in Washington that was shocking so it looks as if in your eyes that equals _All Americans_.

Do you mind if I quote from your post? :)

**!!! A sight like that Americans find normal, but a naked breast on TV would shock them???**

Put this way it does sound outrageous! But I think maybe you are making an assumption here based on JS's experience. I think the majority of Americans *would* find a car full of bullet holes FAR from normal!! I know I've never seen one, not even just one bullet hole, anywhere! Perhaps in some inner cities where gang violence is common it is something that people have become accustomed to. Either that or I am really sheltered! haha! But I grew up right outside of Washington DC so I've spent time in Washington, in the suburbs and now in a country/rural area and it's not something I've ever come across so it's a long long way from normal in my eyes. I'm not doubting what he saw, I just want to make clear that it would be misleading to assume that all Americans would find this normal. And even those that appeared to be untouched by it - who knows what is going through their minds? Perhaps they are sick and disgusted with the violence themselves and just don't know how to go about putting a stop to it. They feel helpless as an individual to stop it so they close themselves off from it and go about their lives. Just something to consider. :)

As far as LKH goes, I would be horrified to think of a young person reading the kind of violence that is contained in these books - so again please don't assume that the majority of Americans would not be bothered by this. :) In fact, the first book I read halfway through and put it down for a year before I picked it up again because the violence level was just too high for me as an adult. Especially in that she used a childlike appearing woman as the evil vampire.

Now let's take the 'sex' in the LKH books, do you think that's something healthy for a young person to read? I'm not sure we should use Americans being upset about the sex in these books as a good example to make the point that American's are less effected by violence. Often with LKH the violence is wrapped up in the sex, in a horrific way. How many times has she used a form of sexual torture? And the sex itself is not a loving encounter between two people but rather something used to gain preternatural power between several people at one time. And often the dead spirit of another is along for the ride. I think it's Raina? I don't know, I gave up on these books. lol :) Not to mention Anita's aredur which makes it an urge she doesn't want but can't control. IMHO I can certainly understand why this type of sexual focus would worry _anyone_ that a young child would read it and get some warped ideas in their head before experiencing a healthy, loving encounter.

I will say that yes - American culture does seem to be more hung up on exposing the human body than in other countries. It's a shame because I agree with you that the human body is a beautiful, natural thing and that we are giving children the wrong impression of their bodies by making it not ok to ever show them. I personally would like to see this change. However even this I can't say speaks for all Americans, my daughter was thrilled to tell me about a camp she saw advertised in the paper over at her Grandmother's, it's a came for children under 15 or so that is like a nude day camp, where they can explore the human body in a natural non sexual way. She told me she wanted to go, lmao! I think she was just goading me though, I don't think she'd really do it. :) :)

Well I've got to run and take the kids to school, I think I've said enough. *G* I hope I made my main point clear which is to ask that we not make assumptions or lump groups of people into certain types of behavior or labels because of an individual experience. We are all very different and America often expresses that, as does other countries as well. We have many groups of concerned citizens that fight to keep violence off tv, in record lyrics etc. And we have many people that do not think this should be an issue. We are lucky to live in a free country where we can express these views without fear of retribution!!

Hugs to everyone! :)

Linda

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[> Well said Linda. I will say, in reference to the LKH books, that I don't think the sex portrayed in these books is appropriate for a young adult. The sex in some parts of these books was very violent and not particularly mainstream and I don't think a young person is ready mentally to deal with that. I do think that the US is too hung up on hiding things like this from young people and it probably has a negative effect. When you tell someone something is bad or they shouldn't do it....what's their first instinct? Usually to go do it. I think there are good intentions in trying to limit some of these things...naked bodies, sex and violence but it generally backfires>>> -- Colly, 09:31:09 08/27/03 Wed

I remember thinking that when they started rating music cd's and video games that it was kind of stupid. Now you know just which ones have the most graphic content....of course those are the ones you would pick! Reverse psychology at its best. I do try to limit the amount of violence my son sees in movies or on tv, or has on his games, but when he goes to his fathers....well, he doesn't pay attention. My son has seen several movies I wouldn't approve of but I just make sure that i explain that people don't as a rule run around with a machine gun and kill people! He also love James Bond movies, which is alright with me, but I just don't want him to idolize James Bond...especially not Bonds sexual habits, eh?
The nudity thing is something I try not to make a big deal about also. I have a habit of roaming around the house naked and try to cover up around my son, who is 8, but if he happens to wander in to the bathroom while I am in the shower or something I don't make a big deal of it. He is getting to the age where he is kind of shy about being naked in front of me, but will still run about naked after a shower. Again, I don't say anything, other than to tell him he has a cute butt, which usually makes him run and put some clothes on. HIs father however has some uptight views on being naked and I hope that he doesn't project them on to Ryan...the poor kid will be so confused!
Recently I was at a friends house and her 4 year old was running around naked. She plopped herself down on the couch and was all sprawled out....hey, she's 4, she was comfortable! Her mother told her to go cover up "that nasty thing...we don't want to see that nasty thing". I really thought this was horrible, to tell a 4 year old that any part of her body was nasty. What effects will this have on this child when she gets older?
In the quest to protect our children from things we feel they may not be able to handle at such a young age (fear of loss of innocence) we may actually be doing more harm.

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[> I have no time right now.... but I just wanna throw in quickly that I did not refer to the LKH books, just telling how the subject came up, and in that process (and at many other ocassions before) I noticed the "general" attitude towards sex and violence. I agree that the LKH books are nothing for kids!!!! Must run to my house, more later!!! -- Martina, 10:02:38 08/27/03 Wed

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[> [> Martina, haha! Ok, yes I will look forward to you coming back and elaborating a little more. :) :) -- Linda, 12:03:17 08/27/03 Wed

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[> I agree with Linda that the US is a very big and diverse country and that it is impossible to make general statements about everyone. But at the same time, I think part of the sex issue that Martina refers to comes from the people that founded this country, not too many generations ago. The Pilgrims and the first colonists generally came to this country to escape religious persecution, or so we are told. These were sects of believers that just wanted to be left alone to observe their religion as they saw fit. Since they got here first, they got to make the rules, including sex as a shameful thing. These WASPs (white anglo saxon protestants) ruled the land until the Irish Catholics started taking over from the ground up. Only about 40 years ago, it was amazing that JFK got elected because he was Catholic. So the sex thing is not primarily a catholic thing, rather a very straight-laced old protestant thing, the kind that had people wearing black up to their necks even in the summer. -- Lissa...MORE INSIDE>>>>, 14:31:06 08/27/03 Wed

But I'll bet you see that all fading with this next generation. Look at how every type of body is displayed on tv these days. Lots of skin, too.
As for the violence thing, I too have never seen bullet holes in anything. It is a misconception to think that there is that much violence in US culture. Thanks Hollywood. I live near some old mill towns that have lots of tough elements, but there are misconceptions about them even from towns next door. My niece goes to the public HS in her city and my sil gets all kinds of comments about letting her daughter go there. Fear and misunderstanding spread so easy. Cultural misunderstandings can happen anywhere about anything, whether from one town to the next or across the ocean.
And another thing, my dds had some books to read when in HS classes that you would be surprised about if you were to believe that all Americans are afraid of sex. I wish I could find the list of suggested summer reading for this one class. I would definitely not say that sex is hidden away, whether it is rape or love.
As a final note, I haven't read the LKH books and don't plan to because they don't interest me, which is not a judgement on you and the fact that you read them and like them. It's nice that you like them and have so much fun with them. But does that make me afraid of sex? Because I am an American and this doesn't interest me, does that make me less open minded than you who are a European? What about all the Americans who are reading these books? When someone on the other board said they did not think kids should read LKH books because of the sex, was it because it was sex in general they didn't want kids to read, or the 'twisted' sex that I understand is in there?
Back to my original statement, I believe that when you hear an American making some comment about hiding sex related things, what you are hearing is the culture of the Puritans that is still seeping out of our collective consciousness.

HOORAY FOR OPEN DISCUSSIONS!!!!!!!!!

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[> [> Well, it is true that a lot of crap come over the ocean about America. I am glad to have you and all the other wonderful people on the board to make me a bit wiser than the rest of us.*g* >>>> -- Martina, 15:55:35 08/27/03 Wed

I am glad to hear that things are getting different with the younger generation. About referring to the other board - we had discussions about many other books too, which have totally normal sex scenes, just pretty good described. None of the readers there would be happy though to have their kids read it. I didn�t understand that, and took it as a cultural difference, which I do respect fully. I haven�t said anything to it either, only here on this board I thought I could bring it up.*g*

Thanks for the explanation where that attitude originally came from! That explains a lot.

And for the LKH books I must say I read them for the humor. The author has a way with words it�s just too good, haha. I could read the ugly parts with a certain detachment, because English is a foreign language for me and things don�t sound so harsh.*lol* I am not sure if I want to read that in German, haha.

Besides, from what I read on the boards I don�t believe Americans are afraid of sex.*lol* It just struck me funny that they think they need to hide from their kids. When I say THEY I am speaking of the general opinion about Americans that we have here. It might be wrong, like not every German likes Sauerkraut, but I met that opinion a lot on the boards.

About the violence, well that is just another thing they teach us here about America. I am glad you don�t experience it as crass as it is described on TV.

On another note: We got our house put up today!!!

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[> I'd have to agree with the route Lissa is taking. Alot of the colonists were very prudent and there were obviously alot of English (the kind from England) that came over too and they were very straight laced. If you look at some of the things that went on under English rule both in Europe and here, there was much violence but sexual things were totally taboo (except for certain underground groups). The Indians weren't the first people to scalp enemies or torture people, alot of the torture and violence came over from England and was introduced here. They were notorious for using torture to repel acts of sexuality (look at the witch trials and that kind of thing). I'm not getting down on England but alot of that stuff didn't show up in the states until they came over. Personally I think alot of the violence came directly from the Church of England as a way of controlling people. -- Lori, 22:10:23 08/27/03 Wed

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[> Too long, please come inside. -- John Scott, 05:10:04 08/28/03 Thu

Putting national pride aside, the basis of Martina's references are true.

North America condones violence.

There are no doubts. I grew up watching Indians being slaughtered on tv. I grew up watching war movies. Oh I know John Wayne movies were not as graphic as movies today, that is not the point. The point is that they were on tv, people being killed.
This was acceptable behavior, and it has gotten worse. Now if I watch a war movie, I will see men being blown apart, I will see their guts, blood, and see what they had for supper.
I was ten years in the military, and had ties to a motorcycle club before then. I know violence first hand, I know what bullet holes look like in autos and flesh. I know the smell of violence and death.
Why? I grew up where violence is a part of life.
Some city folk sit in their houses thinking they are safe, why should that even cross their minds?
You know, it wasn't until I was an adult that I saw my first breast on tv, with the beginning of pay tv. Why is that? What strange rules prohibit showing the body, but condone showing one being ripped apart by a bullet?

No, Martina is right, there is something very warped with North America's view on nudity and violence. Something we need to change, for the sake of our children if not our own peace of mind.

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[> [> John Scott, Why is your experiences in the military and a bike club indicative of the N Am experience in general? I used to go to my father's rifle matches and also know what bullet holes look like, but not because I live in N Am. Martina might be right to some extent, but I still would not put that big of a blanket statement across the entire continent. Why? Because I live here and that is NOT my experience. Even if what you described was a fair description of the memories of your long ago youth *wink* does that mean that things are still the same today? Sure, we don't have naked weather here but we have MTV and the Love Channel. I also exercize my choice of never bothering to watch anything violent. Neither do I care for skin flicks. I don't need to be a voyeur to enjoy nakedness and sex. Does that make me warped? >>>>>>> -- Lissa, 12:52:10 08/28/03 Thu

Quite simply, It just bothers me to hear you both making such a sure and total judgement, when you base your claim on your personal violent experiences and Martina has never even been here. At least Martina has the balls to talk with N Americans about it, thanks to the internet. And thus proves my point that the world is changing in all ways because we all have the opportunity for open lines of communication with no borders or restrictions.

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[> [> [> Well Lissa, the reason I mentioned the experiences I had was just to let you know that I know what a bullet hole looks like, because it was implied I may have been wrong. Not likely. As for blanket statements, look around you, look at your tv. Whether you choose watch a program or not is just that, a choice. The fact is violence is very much on your tv stations, whether you personally watch it or not. Look in your schools, forget that I have had friends shot to death, or beaten to death, just take a look at your news and see how violent it is. D.C has one murder each day, while I was there, there were 5 in 3 days. That is just one city!>>> -- John Scott, 13:35:13 08/28/03 Thu

And skin flicks? Excuse me deary, but I said nudity, which you automatically classified as "skin flick". Thank you for making my point for me. ;) As for people who have no hang-ups with nudity being voyeurs...well now it is you who has made a blanket statement. Don't throw rocks in a glass house Lissa.
Why do you get as you say "bothered" by my statement? Do you not believe in free speech? Am I not allowed to have my opinion? Is Martina not allowed to have one because she is not North American? Is it necessary to "save" us now? ;)

As a side note, I have been to a few big biker bashes here, and ther was no, I mean NO violence. People (caution, blanket statement: in gerneral-that means as a nation) do not condone violence here. No it is not a violence-free country, but the General rule is "No Violence". One sees this, it is very evident on the streets, and in the news.

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[> [> [> [> JS, I hope you do not think it was my post that was implying that you may have been wrong about the bullet holes! I thought I made it clear in my post by saying that I was NOT implying your were wrong. I hope that was clear? :) I just wanted to point out that I grew up in that area, have lived there and in the suburbs and now in the country and I've never seen so much as one myself. I can't think of ONE person I know that would find this a common thing. That it most certainly would NOT be normal as Martina suggested in her original post. The people of DC are well aware of the murder rate and NOT at all happy about it. They feel helpless to stop it and often disagree on just how to stop it. As far as blanket statements or assumptions go - I think they can be dangerous, hurtful and destructive. No one likes to be unfairly lumped into this type of stereotype, that does not reflect *them*, because of where they live. IMHO. -- Linda, 14:13:20 08/28/03 Thu

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[> [> [> [> [> Me saying it would be "normal" to have bullet holes in cars is a result of the media. It is the America picture that gets published all over the world. I am glad I have you guys to actually get to know some truth. Even though I think JS is right with saying America condones violence and a strange attitude towards sexual openness. America as a nation, not every single individual of course! -- Martina, 15:13:01 08/28/03 Thu

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[> [> [> [> [> [> I will put a reply inside. :) - -- Linda, 10:31:24 08/29/03 Fri

It's a shame the media has to focus so much on the negative! But it's the same way here, unfortunately.

Martina, I would love to have you (and Antje too!) come visit and spend some time here with me! I think it might give you a more balanced view of America and Americans. I know just in the various places I have lived along the east coast, from Washington DC, to the suburbs out here more south and rural/country - myself I have a more balanced view of what we are all about, having come in contact with so many different types of folks. It was a real culture shock for me to go from living in the city to living here! It took me years to get used to it but now I am very happy.

I'm not saying there are not differences. And violence IS glorified often in movies and tv shows here, even Playstation games. It didn't used to be that tv shows showed it very graphically but that has changed, you see more violence on regular tv - along with the exposure to more nudity. *g*

It's been interesting discussing this and I think I've said more than my share! :) So I will cheerfully bow out now, however the offer to visit sometimes still stands. :)

Hugs,

Linda

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Thank you so much! Maybe that will come true one day. I would love to visit you!!! First comes Lissa though, she is waiting long enough already.*g* -- Martina, 15:08:54 08/29/03 Fri

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Ok, getting in line behind Lissa, haha!!! :) -- Linda, 13:25:23 08/30/03 Sat

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[> [> [> [> Calm down, JS. No body implied you were wrong about knowing what a bullet hole looks like, we were just saying that we live in NA and we don't see them driving past us. I used the term "skin flick" loosely as a less than 1000 word way to say obvious nudity. It is hard for me to keep to the discussion of attitudes about nudity and violence when my comments are blown out of proportion like this and then having insult added on top. I end up having to defend myself for things I never said or meant, rather than enjoying a spirited discussion of an interesting topic. And FYI, the Laconia Bike Week happens not far from here and it has been years since there was any violence. -- Lissa, 14:13:25 08/28/03 Thu

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[> [> [> Oh wow, I like this discussion!*lol* It is true that I never been in the US, but that is not my point. The point is that I AM chatting with Americans, and other people, and have noticed that attitude everywhere. People from all over the US think like that. That is why I put that blanket all over the country.*g* Because it�s been my personal experience. And naked people on TV (enjoyable or not) aren�t the point either. It was only an example, a thing that shows how shameful the naked body obviously is. And I wanted to know where that comes from, not blame all Americans as being rednecks, hahaha. -- Martina, 13:36:20 08/28/03 Thu

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[> [> [> [> Martina, well I hope we have at least dispelled *some* of the misconceptions about America? LOL But I was thinking, maybe it would be better for you to actually come out and ask these people you come across why they feel the way they do. In a non-threatening way of course. That way they could better help you to understand. It's hard for me to explain a 'why' to something when it does not reflect my own feelings on the matter. Does that make sense? Because I am not coming from their point of view I cannot explain why they might feel one way about one and not the other. Oh heck, I'll put more inside *g* - -- Linda, 14:43:56 08/28/03 Thu

I remember gun control being a large issue in the last election. Personally I am all for it! I hate guns and wouldn't even have one in the house if my husband did not have to carry one for his job. As it is he keeps that one locked up and I refuse even to know the combination. I have absolutely no desire to ever hold one. I can remember the issue being hotly debated, many people for gun control many people against it. Those that are against it feel that it is the people that are the problem, not the guns. My husband would probably agree more with this point a view. I will not get into a debate about it here, only pointing out that it *is* an issue. People in America are very concerned about the level of violence! Not only in the streets but on tv, in the movies etc. I often hear it talked about, it's effects on children etc.

As far as sex and young people's exposure to it goes, I think it comes down to Colly's post about intentions. People are afraid and want to protect their children's innocence. They're afraid if they discuss it or expose their children to it then they'll go out and *do* it and come back with some sort of horrible disease or become pregnant at a young age etc. So it's often hidden away for fear of what the consequences may be rather than discussed openly. I can see this changing too with the times so I think we are progressing in that respect. :)

Linda

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[> [> [> [> [> Thanks, I see that each country has it�s own problems, that is not what we are talking about here, even though interesting.*g* People here have the same fear about their kids, but there is still no hiding from the subject, or making it a taboo. Kids here get edjucated in that matter, but I know that Americans do that too. I was in chats where parents complained about it.*lol* I personally think it�s a good thing though. Knowledge prevents all those bad experiences, right? -- Martina, 15:03:23 08/28/03 Thu

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[> To those of you who don't know, Lissa and I are good friends, she was at my wedding (I have the pics to prove she went kilt diving)lol. We both enjoy a good debate, and mean no offence, so please to not be offended by our mincing of words. Love Ya Lissa! -- John Scott, 13:40:49 08/28/03 Thu

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[> [> Ah yes, but I went kilt diving at the beginning of the evening while it took you all night and a few beers to prove to me what was actually under it. *VeG* It must be because you are from NA and are ashamed of your nudity. har har har -- Lissa, 14:16:56 08/28/03 Thu

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[> [> [> Oh Ouch, you got me there! ;) -- John Scott, 14:53:32 08/28/03 Thu

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[> As another point of view (not my own) I know people who keep guns in their houses because they have had experiences with the police not getting to the scene of a crime in a timely manner or not doing much when they do show up. I know several people who think they have the right to defend their families & their property at ANY cost. Many who don't trust cops or the judicial system & feel they have the right to think "and eye for an eye". Also I think that violence has escalated in the last 15 years or so when gangs became more popular. There are more & more single parents who don't watch what their kids are doing, or worse yet, don't care. These kids have nothing to do & end up in violent situations alot. With budget deficits, there are many school programs cut. -- Lori (ready to get naked & watch something non-violent on TV!), 23:18:22 08/28/03 Thu

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[> Geeze you guys! I leave for a few days and wow!! ===> inside -- Jeannine, 04:14:04 08/29/03 Fri

Well, I have no argument with WHY we are the way we are, all over the country is pretty much the same, there are NOT many protestants in AZ but they act the same way as NE! I have noticed though that since I was a kid we have come along way! The TV commercials used to sell bras on a dummy, today we have women wearing their underwear on TV and dancing around. Mag ads are very explicit. I thinkpeople here dont look at sex as a natural thing, why? dont know..just like me walking around naked, I am in the minority. Violence is part of our heritage...we killed here since Columbus, the Pilgrims, you name it. Cartoons meant as entertainment are awful in their content. Kids emulate these movies...I think the problem is our society in general. We dont raise our children the same way as even when I was a kid. They are smarter but much lacking in the right from wrong..real vs not...is it TV? Americans watch tons of TV. But the world is a violent place too. I do try to shield my DDs from violence more than sex. They are the ones that think they shouldnt watch it I dont know, its just the way we are

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[> [> I like what you said! Interesting about your DD�s. Seems like they are sensing the general attitude and act according to it. "Just the way we are" is probably exactly it, haha. -- Martina, 15:23:24 08/29/03 Fri

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