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Date Posted: 05:10:04 08/28/03 Thu
Author: John Scott
Subject: Too long, please come inside.
In reply to: Martina 's message, "Sex and violence in books, and the American attitude � caution, I am ranting!*G*" on 04:18:32 08/27/03 Wed

Putting national pride aside, the basis of Martina's references are true.

North America condones violence.

There are no doubts. I grew up watching Indians being slaughtered on tv. I grew up watching war movies. Oh I know John Wayne movies were not as graphic as movies today, that is not the point. The point is that they were on tv, people being killed.
This was acceptable behavior, and it has gotten worse. Now if I watch a war movie, I will see men being blown apart, I will see their guts, blood, and see what they had for supper.
I was ten years in the military, and had ties to a motorcycle club before then. I know violence first hand, I know what bullet holes look like in autos and flesh. I know the smell of violence and death.
Why? I grew up where violence is a part of life.
Some city folk sit in their houses thinking they are safe, why should that even cross their minds?
You know, it wasn't until I was an adult that I saw my first breast on tv, with the beginning of pay tv. Why is that? What strange rules prohibit showing the body, but condone showing one being ripped apart by a bullet?

No, Martina is right, there is something very warped with North America's view on nudity and violence. Something we need to change, for the sake of our children if not our own peace of mind.

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Replies:

[> [> John Scott, Why is your experiences in the military and a bike club indicative of the N Am experience in general? I used to go to my father's rifle matches and also know what bullet holes look like, but not because I live in N Am. Martina might be right to some extent, but I still would not put that big of a blanket statement across the entire continent. Why? Because I live here and that is NOT my experience. Even if what you described was a fair description of the memories of your long ago youth *wink* does that mean that things are still the same today? Sure, we don't have naked weather here but we have MTV and the Love Channel. I also exercize my choice of never bothering to watch anything violent. Neither do I care for skin flicks. I don't need to be a voyeur to enjoy nakedness and sex. Does that make me warped? >>>>>>> -- Lissa, 12:52:10 08/28/03 Thu

Quite simply, It just bothers me to hear you both making such a sure and total judgement, when you base your claim on your personal violent experiences and Martina has never even been here. At least Martina has the balls to talk with N Americans about it, thanks to the internet. And thus proves my point that the world is changing in all ways because we all have the opportunity for open lines of communication with no borders or restrictions.

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[> [> [> Well Lissa, the reason I mentioned the experiences I had was just to let you know that I know what a bullet hole looks like, because it was implied I may have been wrong. Not likely. As for blanket statements, look around you, look at your tv. Whether you choose watch a program or not is just that, a choice. The fact is violence is very much on your tv stations, whether you personally watch it or not. Look in your schools, forget that I have had friends shot to death, or beaten to death, just take a look at your news and see how violent it is. D.C has one murder each day, while I was there, there were 5 in 3 days. That is just one city!>>> -- John Scott, 13:35:13 08/28/03 Thu

And skin flicks? Excuse me deary, but I said nudity, which you automatically classified as "skin flick". Thank you for making my point for me. ;) As for people who have no hang-ups with nudity being voyeurs...well now it is you who has made a blanket statement. Don't throw rocks in a glass house Lissa.
Why do you get as you say "bothered" by my statement? Do you not believe in free speech? Am I not allowed to have my opinion? Is Martina not allowed to have one because she is not North American? Is it necessary to "save" us now? ;)

As a side note, I have been to a few big biker bashes here, and ther was no, I mean NO violence. People (caution, blanket statement: in gerneral-that means as a nation) do not condone violence here. No it is not a violence-free country, but the General rule is "No Violence". One sees this, it is very evident on the streets, and in the news.

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[> [> [> [> JS, I hope you do not think it was my post that was implying that you may have been wrong about the bullet holes! I thought I made it clear in my post by saying that I was NOT implying your were wrong. I hope that was clear? :) I just wanted to point out that I grew up in that area, have lived there and in the suburbs and now in the country and I've never seen so much as one myself. I can't think of ONE person I know that would find this a common thing. That it most certainly would NOT be normal as Martina suggested in her original post. The people of DC are well aware of the murder rate and NOT at all happy about it. They feel helpless to stop it and often disagree on just how to stop it. As far as blanket statements or assumptions go - I think they can be dangerous, hurtful and destructive. No one likes to be unfairly lumped into this type of stereotype, that does not reflect *them*, because of where they live. IMHO. -- Linda, 14:13:20 08/28/03 Thu

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[> [> [> [> [> Me saying it would be "normal" to have bullet holes in cars is a result of the media. It is the America picture that gets published all over the world. I am glad I have you guys to actually get to know some truth. Even though I think JS is right with saying America condones violence and a strange attitude towards sexual openness. America as a nation, not every single individual of course! -- Martina, 15:13:01 08/28/03 Thu

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[> [> [> [> [> [> I will put a reply inside. :) - -- Linda, 10:31:24 08/29/03 Fri

It's a shame the media has to focus so much on the negative! But it's the same way here, unfortunately.

Martina, I would love to have you (and Antje too!) come visit and spend some time here with me! I think it might give you a more balanced view of America and Americans. I know just in the various places I have lived along the east coast, from Washington DC, to the suburbs out here more south and rural/country - myself I have a more balanced view of what we are all about, having come in contact with so many different types of folks. It was a real culture shock for me to go from living in the city to living here! It took me years to get used to it but now I am very happy.

I'm not saying there are not differences. And violence IS glorified often in movies and tv shows here, even Playstation games. It didn't used to be that tv shows showed it very graphically but that has changed, you see more violence on regular tv - along with the exposure to more nudity. *g*

It's been interesting discussing this and I think I've said more than my share! :) So I will cheerfully bow out now, however the offer to visit sometimes still stands. :)

Hugs,

Linda

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Thank you so much! Maybe that will come true one day. I would love to visit you!!! First comes Lissa though, she is waiting long enough already.*g* -- Martina, 15:08:54 08/29/03 Fri

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Ok, getting in line behind Lissa, haha!!! :) -- Linda, 13:25:23 08/30/03 Sat

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[> [> [> [> Calm down, JS. No body implied you were wrong about knowing what a bullet hole looks like, we were just saying that we live in NA and we don't see them driving past us. I used the term "skin flick" loosely as a less than 1000 word way to say obvious nudity. It is hard for me to keep to the discussion of attitudes about nudity and violence when my comments are blown out of proportion like this and then having insult added on top. I end up having to defend myself for things I never said or meant, rather than enjoying a spirited discussion of an interesting topic. And FYI, the Laconia Bike Week happens not far from here and it has been years since there was any violence. -- Lissa, 14:13:25 08/28/03 Thu

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[> [> [> Oh wow, I like this discussion!*lol* It is true that I never been in the US, but that is not my point. The point is that I AM chatting with Americans, and other people, and have noticed that attitude everywhere. People from all over the US think like that. That is why I put that blanket all over the country.*g* Because it�s been my personal experience. And naked people on TV (enjoyable or not) aren�t the point either. It was only an example, a thing that shows how shameful the naked body obviously is. And I wanted to know where that comes from, not blame all Americans as being rednecks, hahaha. -- Martina, 13:36:20 08/28/03 Thu

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[> [> [> [> Martina, well I hope we have at least dispelled *some* of the misconceptions about America? LOL But I was thinking, maybe it would be better for you to actually come out and ask these people you come across why they feel the way they do. In a non-threatening way of course. That way they could better help you to understand. It's hard for me to explain a 'why' to something when it does not reflect my own feelings on the matter. Does that make sense? Because I am not coming from their point of view I cannot explain why they might feel one way about one and not the other. Oh heck, I'll put more inside *g* - -- Linda, 14:43:56 08/28/03 Thu

I remember gun control being a large issue in the last election. Personally I am all for it! I hate guns and wouldn't even have one in the house if my husband did not have to carry one for his job. As it is he keeps that one locked up and I refuse even to know the combination. I have absolutely no desire to ever hold one. I can remember the issue being hotly debated, many people for gun control many people against it. Those that are against it feel that it is the people that are the problem, not the guns. My husband would probably agree more with this point a view. I will not get into a debate about it here, only pointing out that it *is* an issue. People in America are very concerned about the level of violence! Not only in the streets but on tv, in the movies etc. I often hear it talked about, it's effects on children etc.

As far as sex and young people's exposure to it goes, I think it comes down to Colly's post about intentions. People are afraid and want to protect their children's innocence. They're afraid if they discuss it or expose their children to it then they'll go out and *do* it and come back with some sort of horrible disease or become pregnant at a young age etc. So it's often hidden away for fear of what the consequences may be rather than discussed openly. I can see this changing too with the times so I think we are progressing in that respect. :)

Linda

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[> [> [> [> [> Thanks, I see that each country has it�s own problems, that is not what we are talking about here, even though interesting.*g* People here have the same fear about their kids, but there is still no hiding from the subject, or making it a taboo. Kids here get edjucated in that matter, but I know that Americans do that too. I was in chats where parents complained about it.*lol* I personally think it�s a good thing though. Knowledge prevents all those bad experiences, right? -- Martina, 15:03:23 08/28/03 Thu

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