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Date Posted: 10:37:04 07/17/07 Tue
Author: Randy (TexasReb)
Author Host/IP: cpe-66-25-204-230.sw.res.rr.com / 66.25.204.230
Subject: Re: Texas is not part of teh south!!!
In reply to: Travieso 's message, "Texas is not part of teh south!!!" on 23:43:11 07/16/07 Mon

Greetings Travis, from a fellow Texan!

Before replying. let me say right off the bat that I respect your right to choose not to call yourself a Southerner. However, you must remember that according to the Southern Focus Poll, 86% of Texans considered themselves to live in the South, and approximately 70% considered themselves to be Southerners (this "gap" existed in all the Southern states and is largely attibutable to that some respondents were transplanted northerners). Anyway, in another demographic study published in The American Geographer (I believe it was, but can verify for sure if you need it), when given a choice of regional affiliations, some 75% of Texans indicated "South" over "West" (most the the choice of "West" was expectedly in the Trans-Pecos ala' El Paso area).

>I have just read the article claiming that Texas is
>considered part of the "old South". With all respect,
>I cannot agree. Demograpically, historically, and
>geographically I think this is far-fetched.

I am not sure I ever used the term "Old South" in my article, however if one defines this phrase by ante-bellum statehood and a culture and an economy dominated by cotton, then the settled parts of Texas (mostly east of Ft. Worth) was indeed Old South.

>Let me tell you a bit about myself. I am a true Texan.
>My family came here from France when this was Mexico,
>and they married many native-American women. They
>settled the Gulf Coast (notice the french names like
>La Marque, etc). So, I don't know how far my family
>has been here. Later, they mixed with Irish and
>Scots.

I too am a true Texan. Fourth Generation, of Scots-Irish decent, with ancestral lines into the Deep South (mostly Mississippi, but Alabama in the mix as well).


>While Randy Hill claims southern heritage, this is a
>minority of Texans. Firtly, most White texans have a
>lineage of Germanic and Eastern European stock, unlike
>the british stock of the majority of whites in the
>"Old South". Catholicism is the largest religion in
>Texas, not Baptist like in the "OLD south".

I'm sorry Travis, but Southern lineage (that is, family lines extending into the older Southern states) is the rule, not the exception. Texas was settled overwhelmingly by WESTERN European stock (English, Scots-Irish, etc) from the older Southern states. This fact can be easily verified by numerous sources (see, for instance Terry Jordan's "Texas, A Cultural Geography"). There are, yes, in the Hill Country of Texas and certain other isolated spots, noteable Germanic communities and settlements. However, it is far far from a majority.

So far as religion goes, with the large hispanic population in South Texas (a good part of it illegal, which makes the count questionable), there is a large Catholic membership. However, once again, this is the exception, not the rule. Here are some facts on the matter I recieved from a friend:

*********
"Geographically, Texas tends to be heavily Protestant in the north and east and Catholic in the south and southwest. Leading Protestant denominations and their known adherents in 2000 were the Southern Baptist Convention, 3,519,459; the United Methodist Church, 1,022,342; Churches of Christ, 377,264; Assemblies of God, 228,098; the Presbyterian Church USA, 180,315; the Episcopal Church, 177,910; Independent Charismatic Churches, 159,449; the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, 155,451; the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, 155,019; Independent Non-Charismatic Churches, 145,249; and the Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod, 140,106. Roman Catholics numbered 4,368,969 in 2000. There were an estimated 128,000 Jews, 114,999 Muslims, and about 10,777 adherents to the Baha'i faith. There were about 9.2 million people (44.5% of the population) who were not counted as members of any religious organization."
***********

>Texas Food is Southern? UH, I have been to the south
>and it was nothing like what I ever grew up with. I
>did not grow up eating "fried" everything. IN fact, it
>is hard for me to recall a southern dish. We grew up
>having tamales for Thanksgiving. I grew up eating
>Nopalitos, homemade tortillas, and chili. When I went
>to North Carolina, people I met did not consider me a
>Southerner. They think Texan, like myself.

Once again, as I stated in my original article, much depends on individual perspective. And certainly it doesnt sound like yours, from a culinary point of view, was very Southern. And, with all due respect, Texan for that matter. The dominating traditional food stuff in Texas is Southern in origin (chicken fried steak, BBQ, catfish, fried okra, black-eyed peas on New Years Day, etc). Sure "Tex-Mex" (so called "Mexican food) is common (and I love it), but I guarantee you if you ask most Texans what they grew up eating out of momma or grandmaws kitchen, you'll hear fried chicken a heck of a lot more than you will tamales!

So far as what people in North Carolina think? That is of little concern to me. I have distant cousins in Mississippi (Deep South "purists" as I call them!) who don't think of North Carolina as Southern! I've even talked to folks from Mississippi, Alabama and Georgia (possibly the "most Southern" states of all) who exclude Louisiana and Tennessee from the "true South". Go figure! LOL

>Okay, since I have lived in Austin for 20 years let's
>talk about music. Austin has been made a music mecca.
>Why? Because Willy and Waylon and the Boys found
>Nashville, the South, too conventional and
>constraining. Remember, this is "country and WESTERN"
>music. Willy Nelson and the boys brought back the
>western aspect of the music which is more
>individualistic, less constrained by social mores, and
>much more liberal. For god sake, he wrote a song about
>gay cowboys and he's a pothead!!!

The "Western" part of "country and western" music had little to do with "Home on The Range" true "cowboy music" Rather, it referred to "western swing", which began, pretty much, with Bob Wills and The Texas Playboys. And far as that goes, there was a Texas based band called "The Southern Melody Boys" which were a western swing band. It was an offshoot of the more traditional country music, sure, but it wasn't ever intended or thought to be a "secessionist" movement! LOL Besides, one seldom hears, anymore, the term "country and western". It is now simply, once again, "country." And Texas has more than its share of noteables in the genre.


>The Civil War? Texas did not see civil war battles,
>yet Missouri did see a lot of battles and it fought
>for the South. Missouri would actually be more
>accurately depicted as part of the South in a
>historical framework.

With all due respect once again, Travis, I must question your, shall we say, understanding, of "Civil War" history. To begin with, Texas was one of the 7 original charter members of the Confederate States of America (4 other states joined later). There was never any question of which side Texas and Texans were on. On the other hand, Missouri did NOT fight for the South. There was a large enough group of Southern sympathizers within that they formed a "rump government" and declared themselves out of the Union, but it never had the support of the population (most Missourians fought for the North). And that "rump government" was soon driven into exile and existed, guess where? In Marshall, Texas.

As I said in the article, true there were no TRULY major battles fought on Texas soil. However, those that were were legendary. The Battle of Sabine Pass, for example, when 47 Texans held off an invading fleet of yankee warships and 5000 men. In an unprecedented move, the Confederate Congress passed a special resolution of thanks, and CSA president Jefferson Davis called it "the greatest military victory in the history of the world." And also, the LAST battle of the war was fought on Texas soil. A group of Confederates, not knowing the War had ended, defeated a larger force of federals and only then found out that fact. So it can be fairly said that the last battle of the War was a Confederate victory won by Texans! LOL

>No, I am not a Southern. I am a Texan. Always have
>been, always will.

That's fine, and I appreciate your thoughts and opinions. However, I am a Texan as well, and a Southerner. And in summation I will just say that, anymore, I don't spend much time arguing in a "defensive" manner about Texas being Southern or not. The history, culture, and demographics are there and I simply present my case to be taken or left. All I can say is that I KNOW I am Southern. There is a line in a Pat Conroy novel that sums it up "A Southerner is, and a Southerner knows he is."

Texan, North Carolinian, Mississippian, whatever, it applies.

>thanks,
>Travis

Best Texas (and Southern), regards,
Randy (TexasReb)

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