VoyForums
[ Show ]
Support VoyForums
[ Shrink ]
VoyForums Announcement: Programming and providing support for this service has been a labor of love since 1997. We are one of the few services online who values our users' privacy, and have never sold your information. We have even fought hard to defend your privacy in legal cases; however, we've done it with almost no financial support -- paying out of pocket to continue providing the service. Due to the issues imposed on us by advertisers, we also stopped hosting most ads on the forums many years ago. We hope you appreciate our efforts.

Show your support by donating any amount. (Note: We are still technically a for-profit company, so your contribution is not tax-deductible.) PayPal Acct: Feedback:

Donate to VoyForums (PayPal):

[ Login ] [ Contact Forum Admin ] [ Main index ] [ Post a new message ] [ Search | Check update time | Archives: 1, 2, 3, [4], 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 ]
Subject: Citizenship


Author:
Freddy
[ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]
Date Posted: 21:22:23 05/29/15 Fri
 You had the lawyer in "Distant Shores" say that the mother and child were not citizens. That is true for the mother, Mary.

However, for the child, Matty, that is not true. As the child of a US citizen (Matt), he is a citizen of the United States. There has been a lot of explanation of that in various media over the last six years, and it is well-settled law. Matty is also a citizen of Canada, having been born there, but he is also a US citizen whether he has been registered as one or not, and his mother cannot decline the citizenship for him.

If you doubt this, ask Senator Cruz of Texas, who was born in Canada to a US citizen mother.

Matt's death before the birth doesn't matter. Mary and Matt were married and the child was born within nine months of Matt's death.
[ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]

Replies:
[> Subject: Re: Citizenship


Author:
Jon
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 22:29:28 05/31/15 Sun
>You had the lawyer in "Distant Shores" say that the
>mother and child were not citizens. That is true for
>the mother, Mary.

Looking for clarification more than anything else.

How is US citizenship granted or "transferred"?

This is related to a grandnephew. Grandnephew was born in Grenoble, France last summer (cute kid BTW, but I'm biased) to a US citizen (father) and French citizen (mother).

Does grandnephew "carry" dual French-USA citizenship?

Now to throw a wrench into the works......say sometime in the future grandnephew decides to run for US President (POTUS), similar to Ted Cruz. Is grandnephew considered a "natural born" citizen? Does grandnephew renounce his French citizenship? And to further muddy the question, let's say grandnephew pretty much stays in France until adulthood (or beyond). How does that (in France 'til adulthood) affect eligibility for POTUS?

I understand this is more semantics than anything else. With all of the furor about Barak Obama and the birther movement and more than a little interest in how John McCain born in the US Panama Canal Zone to USA citizen parents were "eligible" for POTUS. Obama was born in a US state, Hawaii, to USA and Kenyan parents. For John McCain it gets "interesting" as he was born in a USA protectorate, Panama Canal Zone, of USA citizens.

Please note I do NOT want to start a flame war or anything similar. This is one of "those" questions I've pondered over the last few years and have not found a clear explanation.
[> [> Subject: Re: Citizenship


Author:
K Pelle
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 01:47:28 06/01/15 Mon
Let's toss another log on that fire, okay?

My mother was born in the US, but her parents were NOT citizens of the USA, they were just on their way to Canada via the US. (The ship they traveled on ran into bad weather and landed in New York, not Montreal which is where it was originally headed.)

What would my Mother's status be?

Now, if she was a US citizen, am I?

The reason I am asking is because of the Draconian Tax system of the USA and the fact that they are now trying to get people who were born of US citizens to pay back taxes for their whole working life, many of whom have never set foot in the USA!

K Pelle
[> [> Subject: Re: Citizenship


Author:
Freddy
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 17:19:53 06/02/15 Tue
If your mother was born in the US, she is a US citizen. There are very few exceptions, mainly having to do with diplomatic personnel from other countries.

Your case is hard to tell. I suspect you are a US citizen, but the US government doesn't know about it. The usual procedure for US citizens born in other countries is to register the birth with an embassy or consulate. If they didn't do that with you, the US government doesn't know about you. You could still register, given the proper documentation, but it doesn't sound like you want to.

If you want a real answer as opposed to an amateur reading of the law and the cases I have read, you would need to ask a lawyer familiar with US immigration law. As you are only asking for an opinion, rather than fighting with the immigration authorities, it would probably be cheap.

>>You had the lawyer in "Distant Shores" say that the
>>mother and child were not citizens. That is true for
>>the mother, Mary.
>
>Looking for clarification more than anything else.
>
>How is US citizenship granted or "transferred"?
>
>This is related to a grandnephew. Grandnephew was born
>in Grenoble, France last summer (cute kid BTW, but I'm
>biased) to a US citizen (father) and French citizen
>(mother).
>
>Does grandnephew "carry" dual French-USA citizenship?
>
>Now to throw a wrench into the works......say sometime
>in the future grandnephew decides to run for US
>President (POTUS), similar to Ted Cruz. Is grandnephew
>considered a "natural born" citizen? Does grandnephew
>renounce his French citizenship? And to further muddy
>the question, let's say grandnephew pretty much stays
>in France until adulthood (or beyond). How does that
>(in France 'til adulthood) affect eligibility for
>POTUS?
>
>I understand this is more semantics than anything
>else. With all of the furor about Barak Obama and the
>birther movement and more than a little interest in
>how John McCain born in the US Panama Canal Zone to
>USA citizen parents were "eligible" for POTUS. Obama
>was born in a US state, Hawaii, to USA and Kenyan
>parents. For John McCain it gets "interesting" as he
>was born in a USA protectorate, Panama Canal Zone, of
>USA citizens.
>
>Please note I do NOT want to start a flame war or
>anything similar. This is one of "those" questions
>I've pondered over the last few years and have not
>found a clear explanation.
[> [> [> Subject: Re: Citizenship


Author:
K Pelle
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 11:15:30 06/03/15 Wed
>If your mother was born in the US, she is a US
>citizen. There are very few exceptions, mainly having
>to do with diplomatic personnel from other countries.
>
>Your case is hard to tell. I suspect you are a US
>citizen, but the US government doesn't know about it.
>The usual procedure for US citizens born in other
>countries is to register the birth with an embassy or
>consulate. If they didn't do that with you, the US
>government doesn't know about you. You could still
>register, given the proper documentation, but it
>doesn't sound like you want to.
>
>If you want a real answer as opposed to an amateur
>reading of the law and the cases I have read, you
>would need to ask a lawyer familiar with US
>immigration law. As you are only asking for an
>opinion, rather than fighting with the immigration
>authorities, it would probably be cheap.
>
Actually, I knew the correct answer to my question, but I left out a few important details. In the first place my grandparents were Swedish citizens who were immigrating to Canada and had the paperwork to prove that, so they were classed as migrants by the US authorities. For some reason they were put on a train and sent west and ended up in the Dakotas where my mother was born in 1900. The question of where she had been born didn't even come up until she reached the age of 65, which was when she applied for retirement benefits with the Canada Pension Plan. At that point she had to prove her birth date and the only proofs she had were accepted by the govt were taken from a family Bible, a baptismal record for a Church in the Dakotas and her parent's immigration papers. Mom's name did NOT show up on the Swedish emigration records, but it was on the Canadian immigration records of my Grandparents and their children when they crossed the Canada-US border. To complicate matters the US authorities had no record of Mom's birth, but somehow the Morman's in Utah did. As a result it took almost two years for Mom to trace down her date of birth so she could get CPP.

To be honest I threw the question out to clarify the 'old' (and sometimes much simpler) registrstion of births or deaths. As I understand it church records and town hall records were all a lot of the early pioneering communities used to keep track of folks.

K Pelle
[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Citizenship


Author:
Doug
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 20:20:42 06/03/15 Wed
And I thought my possible US Citizenship due to screwy Canadian immigration issues was an issolated one ... My Grandfather was born in the US near the turn of the century and came to Canada at the age of 3, never took Canadian Citizenship and took my infant father back to the US while he was in University as a young adult .... I may have a dual citizen claim ... We were looking into it when I was out of work a number of years ago and applying for work in the US.

Doug


>>If your mother was born in the US, she is a US
>>citizen. There are very few exceptions, mainly having
>>to do with diplomatic personnel from other countries.
>>
>>Your case is hard to tell. I suspect you are a US
>>citizen, but the US government doesn't know about it.
>>The usual procedure for US citizens born in other
>>countries is to register the birth with an embassy or
>>consulate. If they didn't do that with you, the US
>>government doesn't know about you. You could still
>>register, given the proper documentation, but it
>>doesn't sound like you want to.
>>
>>If you want a real answer as opposed to an amateur
>>reading of the law and the cases I have read, you
>>would need to ask a lawyer familiar with US
>>immigration law. As you are only asking for an
>>opinion, rather than fighting with the immigration
>>authorities, it would probably be cheap.
>>
>Actually, I knew the correct answer to my question,
>but I left out a few important details. In the first
>place my grandparents were Swedish citizens who were
>immigrating to Canada and had the paperwork to prove
>that, so they were classed as migrants by the US
>authorities. For some reason they were put on a train
>and sent west and ended up in the Dakotas where my
>mother was born in 1900. The question of where she
>had been born didn't even come up until she reached
>the age of 65, which was when she applied for
>retirement benefits with the Canada Pension Plan. At
>that point she had to prove her birth date and the
>only proofs she had were accepted by the govt were
>taken from a family Bible, a baptismal record for a
>Church in the Dakotas and her parent's immigration
>papers. Mom's name did NOT show up on the Swedish
>emigration records, but it was on the Canadian
>immigration records of my Grandparents and their
>children when they crossed the Canada-US border. To
>complicate matters the US authorities had no record of
>Mom's birth, but somehow the Morman's in Utah did. As
>a result it took almost two years for Mom to trace
>down her date of birth so she could get CPP.
>
>To be honest I threw the question out to clarify the
>'old' (and sometimes much simpler) registrstion of
>births or deaths. As I understand it church records
>and town hall records were all a lot of the early
>pioneering communities used to keep track of folks.
>
>K Pelle
[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Citizenship


Author:
K Pelle
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 02:09:47 06/04/15 Thu
>And I thought my possible US Citizenship due to screwy
>Canadian immigration issues was an issolated one ...
>My Grandfather was born in the US near the turn of the
>century and came to Canada at the age of 3, never took
>Canadian Citizenship and took my infant father back to
>the US while he was in University as a young adult
>.... I may have a dual citizen claim ... We were
>looking into it when I was out of work a number of
>years ago and applying for work in the US.
>
>Doug
>
>
Actually the First World war is probably responsible for many of the changes in registration of births and deaths throughout most of North America, if not the world. I know it certainly did in Canada, even though I wasn't around to see it happen, but I certainly heard a lot of stories about the changes that were made.

K Pelle
[> [> Subject: Re: Citizenship


Author:
Freddy
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 17:28:02 06/02/15 Tue
Yes, the child is a US citizen as long as the father satisfies the rules given in another reply. It would help tremendously if the parents go to a US embassy or consulate and register the birth, reducing paperwork in the future.

The child is a natural-born citizen of the US, whether he ever enters the US.

Dual citizenship? Perhaps. The US will consider him a citizen of the United States. The US does not recognize dual citizenship, but France can consider him a citizen too.

Would he have to renounce French citizenship? I have no clue.

----------------------------------
This is the replied-to post:

Looking for clarification more than anything else.

How is US citizenship granted or "transferred"?

This is related to a grandnephew. Grandnephew was born in Grenoble, France last summer (cute kid BTW, but I'm biased) to a US citizen (father) and French citizen (mother).

Does grandnephew "carry" dual French-USA citizenship?

Now to throw a wrench into the works......say sometime in the future grandnephew decides to run for US President (POTUS), similar to Ted Cruz. Is grandnephew considered a "natural born" citizen? Does grandnephew renounce his French citizenship? And to further muddy the question, let's say grandnephew pretty much stays in France until adulthood (or beyond). How does that (in France 'til adulthood) affect eligibility for POTUS?

I understand this is more semantics than anything else. With all of the furor about Barak Obama and the birther movement and more than a little interest in how John McCain born in the US Panama Canal Zone to USA citizen parents were "eligible" for POTUS. Obama was born in a US state, Hawaii, to USA and Kenyan parents. For John McCain it gets "interesting" as he was born in a USA protectorate, Panama Canal Zone, of USA citizens.

Please note I do NOT want to start a flame war or anything similar. This is one of "those" questions I've pondered over the last few years and have not found a clear explanation.
[> [> [> Subject: Re: Citizenship


Author:
Ian
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 20:22:34 06/02/15 Tue
> The US does not
>recognize dual citizenship, but France can consider
>him a citizen too.

Not so
Based on the U.S. Department of State regulation on dual citizenship (7 FAM 1162), the Supreme Court of the United States has stated that dual citizenship is a "status long recognized in the law" and that "a person may have and exercise rights of nationality in two countries and be subject to the responsibilities of both..."

Ian
[> [> Subject: Re: Citizenship


Author:
Arthur Keith
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 17:56:16 06/14/15 Sun
>>You had the lawyer in "Distant Shores" say that the
>>mother and child were not citizens. That is true for
>>the mother, Mary.
>
>Looking for clarification more than anything else.
>
>How is US citizenship granted or "transferred"?
>
>This is related to a grandnephew. Grandnephew was born
>in Grenoble, France last summer (cute kid BTW, but I'm
>biased) to a US citizen (father) and French citizen
>(mother).
>
>Does grandnephew "carry" dual French-USA citizenship?
>
>Now to throw a wrench into the works......say sometime
>in the future grandnephew decides to run for US
>President (POTUS), similar to Ted Cruz. Is grandnephew
>considered a "natural born" citizen? Does grandnephew
>renounce his French citizenship? And to further muddy
>the question, let's say grandnephew pretty much stays
>in France until adulthood (or beyond). How does that
>(in France 'til adulthood) affect eligibility for
>POTUS?
>
>I understand this is more semantics than anything
>else. With all of the furor about Barak Obama and the
>birther movement and more than a little interest in
>how John McCain born in the US Panama Canal Zone to
>USA citizen parents were "eligible" for POTUS. Obama
>was born in a US state, Hawaii, to USA and Kenyan
>parents. For John McCain it gets "interesting" as he
>was born in a USA protectorate, Panama Canal Zone, of
>USA citizens.
>
>Please note I do NOT want to start a flame war or
>anything similar. This is one of "those" questions
>I've pondered over the last few years and have not
>found a clear explanation.

Just a late note. I was born in The Netherlands at the end of World War 2. My father was American, my mother Dutch. My birth was registered at the consulate soon afterwards by my mother, my dad did not stay around long enough. I did however received both Dutch and US citizenship and was able to keep both. Came in handy during my time in the US Army as I was able to travel for them to East Germany on my Dutch passport.
[> Subject: Re: Citizenship


Author:
Ian
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 07:35:38 06/01/15 Mon
> As
>the child of a US citizen (Matt), he is a citizen of
>the United States.

It is my understanding it is not quite as simple as that (see below), and the death of Matt before Matty's birth would seem to me to possibly complicate matters.

A person born abroad on or after November 14, 1986, is a U.S. citizen if all of the following are true:

The person's parents were married at time of birth
One of the person's parents was a U.S. citizen when the person in question was born
The citizen parent lived at least five years in the United States before the child's birth
A minimum of two of these five years in the United States were after the citizen parent's 14th birthday.

Ian
[> [> Subject: Re: Citizenship


Author:
Freddy
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 17:11:05 06/02/15 Tue
Yes, there are some rules, but as I understand it Matt's death does not factor in. If the mother had remarried, perhaps. As usual, if there is any kind of complication, in real life you would have to ask a lawyer. In this case, it is the same as Cruz's situation except for Matt's death and the gender of the parent.

>> As
>>the child of a US citizen (Matt), he is a citizen of
>>the United States.
>
>It is my understanding it is not quite as simple as
>that (see below), and the death of Matt before Matty's
>birth would seem to me to possibly complicate matters.
>
>A person born abroad on or after November 14, 1986, is
>a U.S. citizen if all of the following are true:
>
> The person's parents were married at time of birth
> One of the person's parents was a U.S. citizen
>when the person in question was born
> The citizen parent lived at least five years in
>the United States before the child's birth
> A minimum of two of these five years in the United
>States were after the citizen parent's 14th birthday.
>
>Ian

[ Contact Forum Admin ]

Forum timezone: GMT-5
VF Version: 3.00b, ConfDB:
Before posting please read our privacy policy.
VoyForums(tm) is a Free Service from Voyager Info-Systems.
Copyright © 1998-2019 Voyager Info-Systems. All Rights Reserved.