| Subject: Re: SxK Plausibility |
Author:
Lika
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Date Posted: 01:56:06 07/04/03 Fri
In reply to:
Agent420
's message, "Re: SxK Plausibility" on 10:45:39 06/30/03 Mon
>Hmm...sorry about that. It is quite evident that you
>and I have VERY different views, which is perfectly
>fine. I understand that some people are not as devoted
>to sex as I am, and DEFINITELY did not mean to imply
>that my views are true for anyone else. I was merely
>expressing my opinion as a woman who cherishes sex as
>a very important part of her life.
But one has got to separate what they cherish from what the fictional characters cherishes when posting their opinion on said character. You may have not meant to say that your views are true for everyone else, but in insisting fictional characters do share them, and that the writers/authors of them are in denial if they don't, you certainly sound like it's your way is the right way that everyone should share.
>Don't put words in my mouth, they taste rather foul.
Aeanagwen wasn't putting words in your mouth. She was giving *her* opinions. She's passionate, sure, but most people here are, including yours truly, and Aeanagwen's post was well-written and thoughtful as usual.
>I understand COMPLETELY, but there are perhaps some
>other reasons why CLAMP didn't display the potential
>union of the two. One is that male/male sex is not
>commonly accepted by readers, especially if it is
>thrown in one's face.
Seishirou and Subaru's relationship, even without the sex, is very sensual. It's enough that people who are iffy about homosexuality won't read it. Homophobes are not, "hey, let the guys flirt and get all sexual innuendo-y, anything but sex" but rather, "DON'T EVEN LOOK AT HIM LIKE THAT!"
>The endeavor is highly painful,
>very bestial, and not exactly easy to look at and
>accept. In addition, CLAMP is not the type to shove
>things down readers' throats. We *didn't* get to see
>Sorata and Arashi have sex--
so it's not that m/m sex isn't accepted then and thrown into people's face, but any kind of sex
>actually, we barely even
>saw them kiss.
But we saw them in bed naked (whoo hoo!) and CLAMP made it pretty freaking clear that they had sex. CLAMP doesn't shove things done people's throat, but they're not dainty, did-they-do-it folks either. If any characters in their series had sex, you'll know.
In addition, most of the homosexual
>relationships in *all* their manga never get past
>touching and stroking. We have never seen yaoi couples
>even KISS in their manga. So whether or not the affair
>seems plausible, one has to admit that there is at
>least a fair possibility that Seishirou and Subaru
>might have had sex sometime before the Rainbow Bridge
>fiasco.
I have to say very very slim, because Subaru didn't even realized he loved Seishirou until TB7. It was then that he realized Seishirou meant something to him. He cried, he was shock, he got his revelation, he walked through the doors and an hour later he was in a coma. So unless he and Seishirou had sex during those pages in TB7, there was no sex to be had between the two of them in Tokyo Babylon.
As for the nine years inbetween, I doubt Subaru was screwed up enough to want to have sex with Seishirou in those ten years. I doubt Seishirou was interested in having sex with a soiled Subaru. It's possible, but in my opinion, highly, highly unlikely due to the situation, the emotions they felt, and their characteristics.
>Well, shit, somebody's touchy today.
Hey, jump on anyone's beloved characters and expect backlash. I love backlash so I do it often (SUBARU SUCKS FOLKS!), but don't say anything bitchy about Karen without expecting me to tear you into pieces. Or anything about Kotori without Aeanagwen making her, thankfully, more coherent thoughts on the matter. She's passionate, but she's not imflammatory by any means.
>AGAIN, I am a VERY SENSUAL BEING.
Me too. I want to have sex from anything to men to women to rabbits to aliens. Seriously.
I simply CANNOT see a
>relationship reach such a high level of intimacy
>without sexual contact.
Oh, you need to watch Will and Grace. Sex would ruin their relationship. And Mulder and Scully (actually it did :P)
What I question is if Subaru has actually HAD a relationship of that high level of intimacy. First off, with S/S, I doubt Subaru's the kind of person who would sleep with someone if he didn't love him, and he didn't realized he loved Seishirou until two minutes before he walked into the maboroshi to get fed inside a tree.
After that, he hated him. No high level of intimacy there.
(And trust me, as a former S/Ser, I used to want there to be *any* indications of them having sex, and I was so mad when I had to accept CLAMP sealed Subaru's no-sex with Seishirou in TB7. Think subaru would be that crushed at finding out he loved Seishirou if he had slept with him?)
With S/K, Subaru is such a mess that he can't figure out what the Fog he wants in this stupid life and can't commit to Kamui or the DoHs.
So the only reason for him to have sex is to drown himself in pain, or in anger, or just to hurt the other person. I guess you can say he could have slept with Seishirou post X8 for that reason, but if he did, he's a lot sadder than I thought.
>And the thought of Kotori and
>Kamui having sex would bother me terribly,
Neither are ready for it so it would bother me too. In a few years though, I'll arrange the honeymoon suite for them.
>simply
>because Kamui would be forced into a controlling
>relationship and Kotori does NOT have the stamina or
>the maturity to endure it.
HUH? Controlling?
And even on a strictly
>romantic level I can't see these two getting along.
>Kamui WOULD NOT be able to handle a relationship that
>would put him on the spot as a dominant male.
Oh, he's a tough little kicker *Hugs him* Also, in S/K, he would be the seme. Subaru, that little limp ragdoll of a whiner, has to be uke. Make for that role. Kamui's so on top.
He is
>the type that needs to BE nurtured and protected, not
>to do the nurturing and protecting.
Oh come off it. Give Kamui a bit more credit than that. Sure, he needs to be kicked in the pants a few times and told to grow up, but he's doing pretty well so far. He's getting a brain and a backbone and is currently MUCH more mature than Subaru will EVER be. He doesn't know what the hell he wants (who the hell does beside Yuzuriha?), but at least he knows what he has to do to get it. He's loyal, strong, sticks to his guns, recovers after fights now, and is quick to react and do stuff. He's not a man yet, but give him a few years and he'll be a great one, and the one who will help Subaru get back on his feet. With help from friends, yes, but he doesn't need any protection or nurturing.
>Sure, one could
>always say that Kotori could do those things, but she
>simply does not have the level of understanding one
>needs to understand the torture Kamui faces as a
>depressed adolescent.
Kotori understood more than a lot of the angels did. Certainly more than my darling Karen, whom I love to pieces and revere and think as a goddess. She understood that fate wasn't set. That's maturity for you.
>GAH! These words being shoved in my mouth--I am
>choking on them! *gulps a glass of water* Phew...
>ANYWAY...
Wow, people says their opinions and words are being shoved down your mouth? You don't like discussions, much, do you?
>As timid and insecure as he may be, SUBARU IS STILL A
>MAN.
Biologically, perhaps, but emotionally and psychological, the guy's a toddler. And while sexual urges are biological, sex is best when one is emotionally and psychologically ready for it. Why women orgasm more at 30 than at 20.
>Sure, he isn't the type to
>pin Kamui down and stab him silly--I never said he
>was. But when displayed in the manner of touching and
>stroking and getting *very* close to Kamui, it can be
>safe to say that Subaru is at least experimenting with
>sexually provocative contact. That is the only point I
>was trying to make here.
But earlier you said that 25 years old virgins are ick. so it came off as people who didn't have sex in high school were worth shuddering about. Your post also sounded like, if Subaru didn't have sex, that would be weird and icky. If not weird and icky, then immature, out of touch with themselves, in denial, which pretty much leads to weird and icky.
(Good grief, if not having sex equal weird and icky, virgins are the true evil people of the world. WOO!)
>Sure, I may be wrong--but
>who's right? That's the beauty of CLAMP--it is a
>different experience for everyone, and apparently my
>sexually-influenced views are what I base most of my
>opinions off of.
I lust after big breasted females (Karen - YUM!) and fluffy creatures (STITCH! BIGWIG!), but I'm not going to expect Arashi or Sorata or Kamui or whoever to dream about Karen or Inuki.
>Hunny, I *really* didn't try to get your shorts
>ruffled with my comments. I sincerely respect you and
>all your views, no matter how biased I may appear to
>be. I am sorry if I offended you at all, and again
>these thoughts come from someone who has had very much
>experience with sex and who embraces it as part of her
>spirituality and culture. If I piss you off any more,
>do the smart thing and ignore me. I cannot change the
>way I am any more than you can.
You could try to disentangle yourself from fictional characters though.
Lika
going back to licking Stitch all over like a lollypop
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