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Date Posted: 12:51:14 06/11/03 Wed
Author: John
Subject: Back to you Lance
In reply to: Lance 's message, "::comes dancing in::Look at the stars, Look how they shine for you, And everything you do, Yeah, they were all yellow. I came along, I wrote a song for you, And all the things you do, And it was called 'Yellow.'" on 04:46:49 06/11/03 Wed

Well, welcome to the party Lance. You probably are the only one to see coldplay and then respond to HCL. I was out at the river boat Casinos all day and came home to respond to this topic.
Yes you did say you would be back, and missing by a day or so is no big deal. I've tried to hold off with more comments until you at least had a chance to make your statements.

Your opening statement using Mattew Shepherd's tragic murder and all the other trgedies that gays have suffered through is by no means anything to be taken lightly. I was living in Wyoming when Matthew was murdered and heard all the grissly detils on a daily basis. I also heard many of the residents say nasty and terrible things about Mattew. I spoke up, to a point, until I realized that if I kept up, I might be the next statistic. So don't anyone think I don't have compassion for the suffering that has been and is still going on. I abhor the cruel treatment that gays receive but HCLs are not the way to solve the problems. Incidentally,they do not just protect a gay who is singled out and assaulted.




As to your responses to my 4 basic points.

Lance's response:
1. "Whether or not they violate the 14th amendment of the Constitution, the fact of the matter is, there are hate crime laws to protect other minorites and gay people need to be a protected minority."

I'm surprised you would gloss over the fact that HCL would violate the equal protection clause of the Constitution. The Constitution is the backbone of this great country and everytime we erode some of it's authority we weaken this country. That has happened in cases before and maybe that's why there are more problems facing us today. To disregard the Constitution because it doesn't suit one's needs or desires is even more dangerous than faulty legislation.

And just so people understand. HCLs cover a myriad of situations. And yes Lance they do include the intent or thoughts of the perpetrator, which I'll get into in my next response.

If we could I would be all for rolling back the HCLs. Why do you or anyone feel that one person's well being or life is so much more valuable than anothers? Why can't there be one law to cover all people equally, as we now have? Why special treatment? I'm sure the mother of a nerdy chessclub member who gets harrassed and beaten up feels the same pain as the mother of a young gay student, who gets beaten up. And I'm sure she would like to see the same punishment meted out to her son's atttackers as was given to the attackers of the young gay man. As I pointed out in my previous post; we went through this during the Jim Crow days but apparently learned nothing.



Lance's reponse:
2. "Following that rationale we shouldn't bother having a law against murder because people murder other people everyday."


Laws were made to equally protect all of society. Abolishing a law against murder would certainly dessimate that ideal. We are not discussing removing any laws that equally protect all people. We are discussing laws which DUPLICATE laws already on the books but impose a harsher penalty in some cases, on the perpetrator.
Why would you even try to equate that with abolishing laws for murder?

My rationale for treating everyone equally under the law is in no way close to abolishing laws allowing people to go out and commit murder. I'm not only surprised you would say that, but a statement like that is putting words in my mouth that were never intented to be there. I'm sure that wasn't your intent, but that's the perception it gives.


Lance's reponse:
"In regard to hate crime laws, I disagree with you about whether it deterres criminal actions. While it may not have a lot of effect on a psychotic murder, I believe it will have a large impact on physical attacks and harrassment against gays."

As to your beliefs that HCL will deter criminal acts against gays, I can only say that I respect those beliefs. But unfortunately that is all they are. Your beliefs. Since the first HCL were enacted in 1969, that means that crimes against gays should be way down since they have been around for 34 years. But in your opening statement you stated that crimes against gays are increasing. So since you state that these crimes are increasing I can only gather that my statement about HCLs not deterring these crimes is a valid point.

The sentencing of these criminal acts under the HCL provision usually adds 1 year sometimes 2 to the sentence imposed. But since most lesser crimes allow for early release and parole, these added penaltys become miniscule at best.

And lastly, your statement about enforcing the law is probably the most significant.

In fact I think that's where the problem really lies. All the legislation in the world is useless if the laws aren't enforced. And for that topic I can't give any good solution since it relies on the integrety of law enforcement officials.
Let a gay man get arrested for speeding in some rural redneck county by a bigoted homophobe sherriff and I don't care what laws have been passed. Chances are that gay man is in serious trouble. I don't mean to sound frivolous but no laws will protect him. He will be at the mercy of his captors.


Lance's response:
3."I'm very suprised to see you using that argument, John."

HaHaHaHaHa! Nice try Lance, but please don't try to pigeonhole me with the wacko religious right wingers on this one. I gotta give you credit though. You do believe all is fair in these discussions. WHEN DO WE HEAR ABOUT THE WELFARE MOMS?

Lance's response:
"Hate crimes legislation would in no way limit freedom of speech much less thoughts. In order for hate crime legislation to be applied in a specific case, a criminal act must first be committed"


Check out the following and check the ref for further details.

*****In the followong examples words and phrases are used which are offensive to most but are included as part of the actual acts committed, so please do not think I condone the use of these words or adhere to their meanings. These are actual cases which contain the facts as presented.*****

For example, In San Jose in 1993, two neighbors got into an argument over grass clippings. Neighbor One used a lawn mower without a grass catcher, to blow grass onto neighbor Two’s lawn. Later, there was a fight, and the son of neighbor One punched neighbor Two. Normally, this would be a misdemeanor assault. But in California, the incident resulted in a felony conviction, because the son called neighbor Two a "cocksucker" and a "faggot. ref: (Jim Jacobs & Kimberly Potter, "Hate Crime: Criminal Law & Identity Politics N.Y. Oxford,2000)

At an Ohio campground, a man and his wife played their radio too loudly, and bothered the people at the next campground. When the park ranger told the couple to turn the radio down, they did, but 15 minutes later, they turned it up again. The husband then yelled that he ought to shoot the campers at the next campsite. He did not take violent action in any way.This misbehavior should have been prosecuted, since the man was clearly guilty of disturbing the peace and of making a threat. Instead, he was convicted of a "hate crime" felony and sentenced to a year and a half in prison. During his tirade, the man said the words "niggers" and "black motherfuckers." If he had not said those words, his offense would have been a misdemeanor, subject to a sentence of no jail time, or up to six months. It is certainly a skewed system of criminal justice in which the word "nigger" leads to a much harsher sentence than does a death threat. ref:( same as above p34.)

How many times has any of us said things in the heat of an argument or fight that weren't really intended. Well under the HCLs the above were prosecuted for what they said because it was their intent or thoughts that were interpreted.

AND JUST WHO DO YOU WANT DEFINING WHAT YOU WERE THINKING WHEN YOU COMMITTED WHAT WOULD BE CONSIDERED AN UNLAWFUL ACT?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/longterm/hatecrimes/stories/motives102698.htm

The above site shows another example of how similar crimes are treated differently. It's too lengthy to post here and I'm not trying to bore you. I just want you to be aware that thoughts play a very important part in determining whether or not a hate crime has been committed. There are numerous cases like these and I'd be happy to share them with you. So please don't say thoughts or speech are not involved in HCL. Let the case facts speak for themselves.

Sen. Robb might try reading some of these cases before misleading people with statements like you quoted. The neighbors dispute and criminal act itself was not motivated by hatred and wasn't a hate crime until certain words were uttered.


Lance's response:
4."That is in essence blaming the victims. It's gay people's fault that they get targeted because they have in some way drawn attention to themselves?"

I take it that is a question although you try to make it sound like a statement I made that you are questioning.

I stated that by demanding these fruitless and unfair laws, you put the gay community at the forefront and make them appear to be whining individuals who are demanding special treatment, which they are. This is used to influence and convince otherwise indifferent or borderline people to think gays are demanding special privileges and hurts the advancement of otherwise worthwhile causes, such as gay adoptions, gay marriages, etc. I never said or intended that it was gay people's fault that they get targeted. That fault lies with the bigots and homophobes, who should be punished to the full extent of the law when they commit violent acts against anyone.

Lance's response:
"Whether or not you believe that a federal hate crime law would be any sort of deterent for the hiengous and vicious crimes that occure to queers, racial minorities, or women, I strongly believe that congress must move foward with a national standard as a statement to the United States that gays will be treated as equals, as human beings. "

So, you believe the way to get equality for gays ( which HCLs do not do) is to do it at the expense of denying other people their equal rights under the law? I'm sorry, but how about if we treat all people equally and punish the lawbreakers w/o all the added legislation?

Politicians love the HCL issue because they can court the gay vote by making the gay community believe they are doing something for them.

I would rather see time and energy spent getting legislation through that would help the millions of abused kids out there than worrying about tacking a year or two onto some criminal's sentence which as I mentioned earlier, wouldn't mean much in the end.

And just as a side note: The murderers of Mattew Shepherd did receive the ultimate penalty with no assissatance from any HCLs. As did the two murderers of of James Byrd in Texas.They all received the death penalty although Mattew's killer's sentences were reduced to life w/o parole upon the request of his parents.

So what HCL would have prevented either tragedy or increased the severity of punishment? NONE

To finally finish, I can say that the list you displayed of victims is very heartwrenching. My heart goes out to their survivors. I have at least 30 or 40 dedications on my computer which I hope to post on a website someday. But remember the thousands and thousands of other people you left off the list. And remember the suffering that their families have also gone through. HCL would not have prevented any of this. Violent senseless acts are committed by prople who have no morales, so no laws or penalties will stop them. Unfortunately.

And also remember that there are laws on the books as I pointed out in Matthew Shepherd's case and James Byrd's, and their killers were prosecuted to the full extent of the law without weakening our Constitution. We are all valuable and worthwhile to someone and we all need to have the same rights as others. I am an advocate for fighting for equal rights for gays, but let's not sacrifice others for our our causes. There are many ways to advance our causes but it takes people getting involved, not hurtful or disruptive legislation.

A quote from Judge Rehnquist; If we keep sacrificing "one" law to save "all the laws," there will eventually be no laws left to save.

These are the words written above the entrance to the Supreme Court Building:
EQUAL JUSTICE UNDER THE LAW

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Replies:

  • Question -- Khadgar, 21:47:56 06/15/03 Sun
  • Khadgar, -- Lance, 04:12:19 06/16/03 Mon
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