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Subject: What to do when your man isn't doing it right


Author:
KatherineJ
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Date Posted: 14:48:13 11/01/02 Fri
 This isn't about sex. Sorry!

It's dish and fess up time for me. Figured I should go here, because I'm getting fed up, and I can't talk on Jabber about it, and I don't want to deal with Shannie's outspoken advice on the Mantel.

I've been seeing Mike now for four months. It's been great -- he's a really nice person, he loves me, and I love him back. And he's smart, even to the extent of using that knowledge to win a good chunk of change on Millionaire (not huge, but decent).

BUT, he's irresponsible, and it's driving me NUTS! I told him that I needed four things from him ASAP:

1. He needs to find a decently-paying job (he's a software engineer and has been out of work for 17 months).

2. He needs to have a reliable car. The first weekend we were an established couple, he bought a cheap but allegedly reliable car. . . that has since spent the majority of its time at one of the park and rides north of town.

3. He needs to clean his house or establish a residence of his own such that I feel comfortable spending time in it.

4. He needs to have a valid driver's license. Last week he got arrested for driving with a suspended license. The suspension comes from a year-old debt that he incurred from getting into an accident with a commercial vehicle in a car he'd just bought the week prior and didn't run out and insure. He drove the car because he didn't think he would get to rehearsal on time using the bus, and the cop pulled him over for an incomplete stop. Upshot of it was, he missed the final dress rehearsal and I didn't know where he was until I got home.

This is what he's doing on these fronts:

1. He does cull the Internet for positions, sends out at least a dozen resumes a week. But apparently the market is glutted with applicants. Still, he does look and send out his stuff every day. He gets a handful of telephonic interviews and even less in-person interviews.

2. He has a Corvette in addition to the junky car, which he has put on sale. Provided he can sell the Vette, he should be able to allocate that money towards a reliable, economic car. . . that is, if he decides to use the money that way. BUT, the Vette itself is trashy on the interior -- so we're spending part of tomorrow afternoon cleaning it out.

3. Not much, outside a few bags of junk. He's promised me that he would spend all day Wednesday cleaning up there, however.

4. He's arranged a payment plan with the creditors. Once they receive the initial payment, they will revoke the suspension and his license will be valid. This is of course contingent on him continuing to make regular payments.

I've had a great four months with a giving, loving human being. But now these issues are really getting under my skin. We've discussed it, and he seems to know what to do, but then weirdness happens and NOTHING gets done.

Before I get into the latest, his rationale for not getting the things done is that he says he's prioritizing, and getting the job comes first. I told him that makes sense, but he doesn't have to look EVERY business day during ALL business hours. Also, I believe there is something satisfying in getting SOMETHING to drop (such as cleaning the house, fixing the car) when you're waiting for the big thing to happen. He says he agrees in theory, but that hasn't been his experience.

Today's plan was for him to take the bus to his P.O. box, go to his credit union to deposit his unemployment checks, mail the initial payment to his creditors, and stop by my work to check out some computer items they are selling off for cheap next week.

He said that he would call me around 11. He called after 12 to let me know that he wouldn't see me until well after lunch, because he had stopped by the unemployment office to send off some resumes and he was JUST approaching his P.O box.

I asked him if he was still going to get his unemployment checks deposited. He said yes, and did I want him to do that before or after he met up with me. I said before. He wanted to know why. I told him that I wanted him to take care of that first, not to put it off and risk the credit union closing.

OH! And here's the kicker: I'm wondering whether he has a check to pay the creditors. He said the other day that he was running low. He orders custom checks from a private company that is allegedly competive with the bank prices. I just left him a vm to tell him to get some counter checks from the credit union in case he discovers he has no checks or can't find his.

You know, I told him last night that I can't be his taskmaster and his lover at the same time. He seems to get the picture, and then he pulls shit like this. As strange as this may sound, I think he's using looking for a job as a way to procrastinate getting this other stuff taken care of.

On a more global note, WHY DO MEN DO THIS???? Mike does cook, and he's attentive and all that, but I don't understand this lack of attention to basic details. Don't they get that when they don't get things done, when they don't bother to keep from farting, when they don't say excuse me when they do -- do they realize how unattractive that is, and THAT is why we start the nagging and turn them away sexually? I certainly can't be the only woman in the world experiencing this.

Sorry in advance for any spelling errors or places where I've spaced out. I've got to go off for lunch now and get my passport done, since the trip to the Virgin Islands I won is next month. HE needs to get that done TOO -- I wonder when he will get around to it.

AAARRRGHHH!

Katherine
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Replies:
[> Subject: Way too much too soon.


Author:
Trisha
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Date Posted: 18:03:47 11/01/02 Fri
I think since you've been going out with him for four months, you're asking a lot from him. Four months is not a long time. And, remember, you cannot change a person overnight....plus, in my opinion, you need to remember to accept him for who he is. If you can't, maybe rethinking the relationship might be something you need to do. And, if you are always wanting to change him (even these four things, which I consider major), he might get tired of that and leave. I think you're asking for a lot too soon.

You might be wanting to change him for the better, but he needs to change for himself, not just for you. If these things bother you now, what's going to happen down the line? Even if you were with him for more than four months, I would still be saying the same.

Just my opinion. I do apologize ahead of time if I offended. Just being honest. :) Good luck!
[> [> Subject: I agree (and more)


Author:
Wanda
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Date Posted: 06:21:27 11/02/02 Sat
But realizing sometimes relationships move faster especially if we know the person before, time in itself isn't the issue.

First, have you ever been unemployed? I guarantee no one is as flustered as he is about finding work. Sounds like he's doing what he can, and there are bound to be periods where he slacks off but 17 months of looking has to be exhausting. Adding pressure to his search by making this something YOU need from HIM is, IMO, way out of line.

Second, regarding your other requirements. He's not you. If these particular things, especially, are dealbreakers you should move on NOW. Unless he's under 18, odds are not good that he would be able to change some of these things no matter how much he'd like to please you. A clutterbug is a clutterbug. He may clean up for a visit from you, but if you imagine you may ever live with him quite frankly you'd better be damned sure you can live like that.

Thirdly, his priorities are his priorities, you can't change what's important to him and the things that drive you nuts are the small change to him. He may be able to grant you concessions from time to time in order to be near you, but he can't fundamentally change who he is or how important these things are to HIM. And once he starts changing his actions to suit you instead of himself, will he still be the man you love anyway? You sound pretty strong-minded and unless you've fallen in love with a push-over, which somehow seems unlikely, these are differences you are either going to have to learn to accept or walk away from now.

[> Subject: Way, WAY too much!


Author:
Pam
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Date Posted: 23:55:14 11/01/02 Fri
Sorry KJ, honestly, but it sounds like you're being incredibly demanding. Maybe those ARE real problems with him, but I guarantee that if I had dated a guy for a couple of months and he started handing me "lists of things to do to prove you're worthy of me", I'd tell him to take a hike. He's survived this long without you giving him graphs and pie charts of recommended procedures, and while his lifestyle may not be to your liking, it's served him well 'til now.

I think the issues are too big to get around, and you're both going to end up hating each other before it's over. He's never going to have enough drive and initiative to satisfy you, which will lead to you being nothing but a domineering nag, which is NOT where you want to end up.

I'm not trying to offend you, from the outside looking in, you're both in a no-win situation.
[> [> Subject: Re: Way, WAY too much!


Author:
Shannie
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Date Posted: 01:36:58 11/02/02 Sat
Pam did you get my PM? I sent it a long time ago. I ask because I think there's something screwy about my PM thingy.
[> Subject: Hmmmmm........


Author:
Kimmy
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Date Posted: 01:32:27 11/02/02 Sat
I know your blowing off steam here and I think that is cool. I am the type that has to vent too. I don't think you were harsh with what you have told us about your boyfriend. These are issues that bother you and you have spoke with him about it.

1. Yeah, I would think finding a job would be an issue with him too. I'm sure he is looking, from what you have said, just keep encouraging without nagging. Does that make sense. You aren't sharing a place with him, so you aren't really depending on part of his income to pay bills from a shared living space. He will find a job, don't worry. Try not to make this an issue between the two of you, unless you feel like you are having to pay more for evening outs or whatever than you would like or find fair.

2. The car thing, seems to me that he has a plan on that one and without really having a job it is hard to get, keep and maintain one, so I think that to will come after he lands a job or the vette is sold, as you have said. Don't sweat this one too much either. You really didn't fall in love with him for his car of his lack of one, right?

3. Cleaning the house...now it is his place right? So if he keeps it in a style that you don't really feel comfortable in, you could just keep on seeing each other in your home. I know the un-kept house bugs you, it would me too, but again, you didn't fall in love with his house. Right?

4. I totally agree with you on this one, he really has to get this taken care of. KJ, you are his girlfriend, friend and lover, not his mother. He is a grown man. I'm sure he will take care of all of this, if he values your input and happiness. But, honey, it isn't up to you to get him to move on this stuff faster than he wants too. I know it is frustrating, because you have always struck me as a "Take care of Business" type of gal. I'm that way too, I want order in my life and it blows me right out of the water when my order is disrupted. I have just learned to let things slide, if it isn't blood, guts, life or death, it will get done. Just not always as fast as I would like it too.

I have a question for you, has he ever had you change anything that bugs him? Like any of the things that you have mentioned, stuff that just gets on your nerves type of things? I would just try to be a little more accepting and try to deal with it. I know, easier said than done, but until you are really sharing a living space or married, it comes off as nagging. Just my thoughts.

I wish you all the best. Hugs!
[> Subject: Becoming a man's mother...


Author:
Meghan
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Date Posted: 06:49:26 11/02/02 Sat
is NOT a role they force you into, it's one you CHOOSE.

I agree with what the rest have said, my mouth dropped a little further open at each "chop-chop! Get cracking now!" demand you seem to have placed on him, as well as the way you seem to be bossing him around over things like which order he does his errands in. Good GRIEF!

When we love someone, we have to learn to love them the way they are. No ifs, ands, or buts - the way they are. I, too, would show someone the door who started saying they needed *me* to do things differently in aspects of my life in order to make *them* happy, particularly when we don't live together. The very idea! In fact, I have done so. I spent far too long in a relationship with a controlling, demanding man who thought his ways should be my ways when it came to neatness and efficiency, not realizing that everything that made me who I am was the flip side of my relaxed free-spiritedness - a quality he was sorely lacking.

It's one thing if a person has serious shortcomings that we don't find acceptable (lying, cheating, etc.), and even then our only choice is to leave. But, things like how messy vs. neat someone is, or how quickly they attend to details *we* find important, but that aren't really about us, are just part of accepting another human being shortcomings and all. And, if they these things fall into the category of things we can't accept that's fine (well, somewhat uptight, but still well within our rights), even then our only good choice is to leave. Better yet though, is realizing there *is* no perfection, and learning to focus on pretty much only the positive about a person we care for and work ourselves on trying to come to understand the rest rather than change them.

The first step is realizing that you AREN'T right about what he should do, and instead that both of you have equally important perspectives that *differ*. You two are apparently opposites, and opposites attract and can bring a great deal to each other's lives as long as they accept each other, differences and all. Think of his perspective. He'd like it if you could just laugh when he farts, not mind his mess, and not see everything he does as about you. Why aren't you doing it right?:-)

I don't mean to be harsh, and I realize (hope!) you're being more emphatic than you feel for emphasis, this general issue just hits a nerve with me.

Some specific comments:

*You're severely underestimating the mental and emotional strain and drain of searching for and being without a job for a long time. Leave him alone! He's dealing with it the best way he knows how, and the last thing he needs is pressure and disapproval from the one he loves piled atop the pressure and disappointment he already feels within. If your pushing has any effect on his employment, it will be to make it happen more slowly. Tell him you believe in him, and you know he'll make it happen when he's ready.

*Regarding his car, if he doesn't show up for dates or is late for them - that's the only portion of this that affects you. Your right is to ask that he call to let you know, reschedule, take the bus/taxi, arrange that you'll take your car, etc., to meet you on time - that's it. Otherwise, tell him you don't love him for his car or lack thereof and you just know he'll find a good one soon, you're not worried about it.

*If how messy *his* house is bothers *you*, then *you* should clean it. I don't actually recommend this, since the idea is to *not* become his mother, I'm only illustrating that it bothering you that he chooses to live in a messy house is *your* issue. Appreciate the things he's good at instead, and realize you are just different.

*Regarding the creditors, he's arranged a payment plan. Let him handle it like the adult he is and stop being suspicious and mistrustful that he doesn't have the money. He may not, but it almost comes across as if you look for things to mother him about.

I can't stress enough that this overall "I'm right about what's good for you and you need to change to please me" bossy attitude of yours is going to bite you hard if you don't loosen up. No man - no person, will take nagging forever unless they're a complete doormat, and no matter how much they realize the person is trying to help. He'll either leave you or start lying to you, maybe both, if you keep it up. And it'll be your fault.
[> [> Subject: Think you missed something


Author:
Pam
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Date Posted: 11:37:37 11/02/02 Sat
Regarding his lack of car/junky car. He also has a frigging CORVETTE that he's selling to pay bills. He bought the cheap junky car so he could sell his high dollar car and get some extra cash. But the Vette has some trash in it. LOL, don't ever take a look in my van.
[> [> [> Subject: LOL...yeah, I guess...


Author:
Meghan
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Date Posted: 22:21:25 11/03/02 Sun
I just assumed the vette must be older or not running well since she said he was planning to use that money for a reliable car.

The more I think about all this, and the fact that these things are already "driving her NUTS", the more I think the relationship just isn't going to work long term. People just don't change their underlying natures no matter what approach you use, so if there are all these things she can't accept as they are and it's already affecting her sexual response to him at four months into it, it's only a matter of time.
[> Subject: Trying to stay calm


Author:
JeffF
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Date Posted: 08:54:48 11/03/02 Sun
KJ, you say you told him you need four things from him. OK, that's an opening of a discussion and because these things are important to you, maybe you should talk about them, but look what happens after that. You suddenly switch the pronoun, so that points 1-4 all start with "he needs". Wrong! Nothing makes a man want to wrong in the other direction faster than a woman starting to confuse her needs with his needs. You can talk about these things, but it has to be from the point of view of "Can we talk about some things that are bothering me?"
Now, let's look at specifics.
Wanda is right about the unemployment. He is looking and it takes something away from a man and his dignity and feeling of self-worth to be unemployed. He doesn't need to be always reminded of it, while he is looking. I lived with my Dad's unemployment for 3 years in high school and although it was very hard on us as his family, that's nothing compared to how it was for him.
He needs to have a better car? It doesn't sound like he can afford one now and any way if it doesn't bother him, he doesn't need to. Do you have a car? If so, and you don't trust his or it doesn't go, why can't you drive? I'm seeing two different people right now, and my car has 198,000 miles. It's fifty/fifty whether it passes the safety inspection this month, but it still gets me around locally. Because of parkways and other places where the car stalls, the women I'm seeing generally do the driving, if we are going somewhere by car. So what?
He needs to have a clean house? It doesn't sound like it's bothering him and it's his house. Stil you have an option if it bothers you that much. Simply say, "Would you mind if I clean your house?" and leave the choice up to him. After all, you're the one it's bothering.
I'll grant you have a point on the license. Driving with a suspended license is not a good idea, since it's illegal and since your complaint about not knowing where he was is a legitimate one. Making you worry for no good reason is a reasonable complaint and this one it would be good if he fixed as soon as possible.
You need to stop confusing your needs and his needs. In your own words, he's a nice guy, he's attentive and he loves you. Sounds great. Then you blame him for you nagging him and the question is if this keeps going on, how long will he want to be attentive and a nice guy. Sorry, but from a man's point of view, there comes a time, when "Enough!" is going to be said.
[> Subject: Wow!


Author:
Hope
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Date Posted: 13:14:32 11/05/02 Tue
Well Kat, I'm sure you won't like what you've read here and I'm sorry but I can't do much but agree with everyone.

There seem to be alot of problems for such a short relationship. Your relationship started our very rocky and doesn't seem to be evening out in any way.

I guess all I can say is that you are not his Mother so stop treating him like a child. He doesn't need you to remind him to get counter cheques or to make a deposit. He's a grown man... if he doesn't know how to take care of himself by now... he's hooped.

Kat, you know I think the world of you and wish you all the happiness you deserve. The ultimate decision, of course, is your own but think hard here. If you put your situation on someone else... say me for instance, what would you say to me if I posted what you wrote above?

If I'm being totally honest here... you're not coming across well here. It sounds like you're reprimanding him constantly for not doing what YOU feel he should be. He is not you... he has his own way of accomplishing, or not accomplishing things and your badgering him won't make an iota of difference... except to maybe make you look like a shrew for getting on his case constantly. He needs to take responsibility for his own actions. If he fails to show up... go on without him. If he doesn't have a reliable car, that's not your responsibility and quit making excuses for him. He's an adult, let him get his own shit together.

He's got alot going on and having you there supporting him is wonderful. But support him, don't try to fix him. Men can't be fixed any more than someone can make a woman change her mind once it's set... LOL

Take care and good luck!

H
[> Subject: That's what dating is about


Author:
Mark7
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Date Posted: 22:13:42 11/09/02 Sat
I agree with all your concerns. By the way, most men who live alone do clean their homes, and most men are obsessed by having reliable vehicles (I am one of them).

Probably your BF doesn't interview well, so you can help him by running scenarios, where you play the interviewer and he answers questions.

Neat organized appearance is also critical in the hiring process. I'm not saying he is lacking this, but you may want to "groom" him before you let him out to interviews.

Anyhow, bottom line is you cannot change anybody. You take them as they are and learn to live with their faults or you look elswhere.

While I agree that all these things can tear down an otherwise beautiful romance, I caution you with respect of hoping he will change later. If anything, people change later into something you don't like.

Anyhow, the best of luck. Just take it easy, take your time with dating, and learn as much as you can about him, and later you will be able to figure if you can live with him for a life or not. 4 months is not a lot, so just play, have fun, and relax.
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