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Date Posted: 09:48:52 11/01/05 Tue
Author: Sunshine
Subject: I have completely missed the boat on this one
In reply to: Rich 's message, "Just a thought about Connor" on 14:12:27 10/31/05 Mon

I really screwed up this whole thread. I think I understand now. Let me recap:

I find the Connor as Angel’s Shanshu theory to be quite persuasive. It just required one to be a little less literal in interpreting the prophecy (my big problem – too literal, can’t always see a metaphor when it hits me in the face). If none of the characters knew Angel had Shanshu’d then there would be no effect on subsequent seasons as they would continue acting as if it had not occurred. A question - if Angel did Shanshu, when did this event occur: when Connor was born, when he returned from Quor-Toth, when Angel set him up in his new family, or during Not Fade Away? Just curious as to the actual big moment.

My question to Masq concerned this line I *do* know it seems highly improbable to me that Angel could simply "sign away" his destiny in NFA
I did not make it clear as I should have quoted that line. My question was: If Angel did not believe in the prophecy, why is it improbable that he would “sign away” this fake destiny? He would be trading something he didn’t believe in order to gain the trust of the Black Thorn and bring them down, something he did believe in. My quote of Angel’s Epiphany conversation should have concentrated on the “There’s no grand plan, no big win” aspect of his statement, not the “only thing that counts is what we do” part. I believe the latter part of the statement, independent of the Shanshu prophecy, Angel, or anything else. When Gunn made his statement, I focused on what I consider the only sound advice for making decisions as you live your life, not the “Even if the fix is in…” aspect of the statement (which I don’t believe). So I could simultaneously totally agree with Gunn’s statement and yet totally reject the premise. Didn’t someone once say (real loose paraphrase to follow) that the sign of intelligence was the ability hold two contradictory propositions in your mind at the same time (okay, also the sign of a schizophrenic or a complete idiot – you are free to choose where I fit)? Angel claimed the prophecy was nonsense – maybe he meant it, maybe he didn’t. Regardless of my opinion as to whether Angel believed in the Shanshu, I still find the Connor theory convincing. Just depends on whether one wants to believe that Angel achieved his destiny or life continued after NFA and Angel is still out there, doing what he does best. Of course, you could believe that he Shanshu’d and was still out there fighting the good fight, trying to make the world less cruel and harsh. Hell, it seems you can believe just about anything in the Buffyverse.

Which leads me to my final point. Trying to make a case for a certain position in the Buffyverse often ends up with me having a big headache. The good guys don’t always tell the truth, the bad guys don’t always lie, inconsistencies abound (I do not believe consistency is part of Joss’ oft referred to “mission statement”). I recognize that this lack of a definitive interpretation is a good thing but it can be really frustrating when you are trying to stake out a position. If you ask me, too much like real life.

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