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Date Posted: 15:00:25 05/18/99 Tue
Author: Daniel
Subject: Correct reposting of Daniel's response
In reply to: Daniel 's message, "Re: Genesis 1:1-5" on 04:33:38 05/18/99 Tue

Kevin here, hopefully I get it right this time!

It is good that George has decided to comment, but I hope that he is willing to step in the ring, defend what he believes and possibly learn that the issue at hand is not as easy as he makes it appear.

> I will, however, comment on one comment that was just made. Daniel said, "NOW
> cannot be escaped. God does not exist outside of time. The Bible does not
> teach that God exists outside of time."
>
> I beg to differ. The Bible tells us that God created all things. Einstein's
> theory of relativity, which was long ago proven to be fact and not just
> theory, proves that time is simply a dimension of our physical universe, and
> that time did not begin until our physical universe began. Now, the Bible
> tells us that God created our physical universe, of which time is simply a
> part. That being the case, God would not now be bound by the laws of the
> physical universe which He created any more than I would be bound by a cage I
> made to keep my parakeets in. While my birds would be locked inside that
> cage, I would not be so constrained. So, since God created our physical
> universe, He could not have been bound by any part of it prior to the time he
> created it. Neither would He now be bound by any part of it. Unless of course
> He chose to be. And is that likely? I believe that is about as likely as me
> deciding to climb inside a cage I just made for my birds and then throw away
> the key.
>

I love the scientific appeal.

Notice that not one passage of scripture was used to support the claim.  As my own child asked,  "How much time did it take for God to create time?" clearly illustrates that there was a moment before creation, no...more like
eternity past before creation.  This concept too was not dealt with by George.  To equate time as a bird cage is an ill represented anology.

Before creation.   Is this a logical term with meaning?  If there was no time before creation, then the term is a logical fallacy.

So that we may at least understand that the bible apparently teaches a God that is bound by time, maybe Genesis 6:6-7 would be a sufficient first appeal to this possibility.  BTW, OEC's this is the most important passages
to understanding the reason behind the global flood.

Gen 6:6-7
6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. (KJV)

If God is outside of time, then what would be the purpose of the term nacham (repent) in the passages above? Or better said, if God knew before hand that man would be so evil, then what reason would there be to repent?

> God created time. I believe God is bigger and more powerful than any of His
> creations. I guess you would answer the question, "Can God make a rock so big
> He couldn't move it?" with a "Yes."  I would have to answer, "No." For I
> believe the Bible tells us that God is omnipresent. As such He must exist
> both within all of His creations and at the same time above and beyond them
> all. I believe this must include His creation called time. That is of course
> just my humble opinion.

Please provide a biblical example of God creating time.

I do not follow your second string of thoughts above.  God cannot build a rock so heavy that he cannot lift it.  God is logical not illogical.  God is superlogical not illogical. God cannot create a round square.  God is
omnipotent, but he cannot do all things.  God cannot sin.

God is omnipresent, but he is not in the heart of the wicked.  God is not in the HIV virus.  And, God is not in the Lake of Fire.  Does this mean God is not omnipresent?  Certainly not.

So just as there are logical limits to God's power and his presence it is also logical to assume that there are bounds to his omniscience.  He knows all that can be known....not that which cannot be known.

When engaging in this topic I have seen many people get offended by such claims that God is limited, that God can and has changed, and/or that God can learn, that God does not know the future and that God is in time.  The offense is taken because somehow they feel as though Our mighty God is weakened somehow.  Heaven forbid!

The concept that God is unlimited, does not change, cannot learn, and that he knows the future is not found in the bible.  It is derived from Greek mysticism.  Depending on this groups desires, I will prove this point unequivocally.  But to just barely taste this issue with philosophy 101, there is a concept called the greatest conceivable being (GCB).  The concept basically states that a created being cannot imagine a GCB greater than a GCB that does not exist, therefor the GCB must exist that is even greater than the GCB imagined by that which is created.

The "imaginary God" argument is only valuable if the imaginations are within reason.   We may choose to imagine a God that is all loving and never condemns, but would this be the actual greatest conceivable being or would this be a fairy tale?  We may imagine that God is outside of time and sees the parade of human events before him, but one could rightly pray..."Father God, I pray that Lucifer would be bound since before the deceitful trap that was laid before Adam and Eve in the Garden.  Thank you Lord right now for
binding him, in the name of Jesus."

Let us pray.  Hmmm?
Omnipotent God that knows all, this should be any easy task.

Certainly this imaginary God would listen to the fervent prayers of a righteous man, and honor the plea for a Great-grandfather to be saved and not to become the evil man he apparently died as.

There are no appeals to the past recorded anywhere in the bible.  Why?

What is it that we know that makes us believe that God knows the future?  Is it really the bible?  A study of prohecy will certainly be in order at some point in time.  But I chalenge you to gather up all the scriptures you can
find to support the truth claim that God knows the future.  I will collect many passages to prove that prophecy is not pre-written future, but the pre-determined will of God.

For one moment put down your platonic rationalism about God, and ask yourself...
Would God be more powerful outside of time, or within time?
Would God be greater if he peeks into the future, then reports to those that live in the past what will occur, or would God be greater if in the midst of billions of freewill beings he could magnificently orchestrate a plan that will ultimately provide justice and mercy, compassion and grace?

Our God is an awesome God!

Daniel

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