| Subject: Re: Ok, on a lighter note... |
Author:
Daniel
|
[
Next Thread |
Previous Thread |
Next Message |
Previous Message
]
Date Posted: 23:03:53 05/01/03 Thu
In reply to:
Jake
's message, "Re: Ok, on a lighter note..." on 17:54:27 05/01/03 Thu
>Yeah we kind of agree and disagree. I still think a
>GOOD dub is better than a good sub for someone not
>interested in learning about Japanese culture. And
>the reason I think that is because a good dub actually
>stays truer to the original creator's intent than a
>good sub, precisely *because* of the extra changes
>that are made.
Yes, but who is to say what changes are acceptable? As we have stated, the creator has no say in this and for some "random" person (might as well be random since they have absolutely no relation to the original production) to choose changes, is obviously wrong. That's like me going up to the Mona Lisa and drawing a moustache because *I* think it should be that way. I obviously had nothing to do with the creator of it and yet I have some authority to modify it?
Again, I think if creators ARE involved in the creation of the dubs (and it wouldn't be called dubs anymore in my opnion), that would be acceptable. You do bring up a good point about him/her not knowing the language, but like you said...the US production crew getting the answers from him would be good too. None this is done right now and hence why I don't accept dubs as close to the original.
>Yes, I wasn't trying to say that the pitch, volume,
>etc don't convey emotion. I was trying to say that
>pitch, volume, etc convey emotion in different ways in
>different cultures and that a Japanese creator is not
>as able as a good American translator/director to
>convey those emotions in an American context.
I don't know about the rest of you, but on average (hell I've never seen a dub do it better), I find Japanese voice actors quite a bit more talented and I find almost all dubs to sound phony and unbelieveable. So within that context, I think that yes dubs DO screw up the emotions and whatnot. It does make sense since the original voice director isn't there...the US production crew has no idea what they're "supposed" to sound like...hell I don't even think half of them care about the show (which obviously translates in their work).
A good example of "ruining" an emotion would have to be Grave of the Fireflies. This is probably one of the saddest things I have ever seen. However, upon turning on the dub track to see if Setsuko sounded "cute" or whatnot...I was appalled at what I heard. In this case, I don't think I would've been as sympathetic towards them and ultimately not as moved (the original intent).
>Right, we agree that the original intent should be
>preserved; but I think we still disagree on who's
>better at preserving that intent. I think the
>original creator should be consulted to determine what
>his intent IS, but the American translator/director
>should be the one responsible for communicating that
>intent in an American context. For example, the
>creator should be able to say "I want this character
>to sound confident but not cocky," but the director
>should be the one to determine whether the voice actor
>meets those criteria or not. This is because he knows
>better than the creator what confident and cocky sound
>like to Americans.
Yeah, but I agree with you there :). As for if I had to choose ONE person to pick how things are conveyed, I will take the creator any day. Who else is a better pick than the one who thought up the ideas/voices/characters, etc. in his/her head. They are the *only* one capable of casting roles and whatnot.
Again though, I do agree that if the creator were consulted, things would improve significantly. This will never happen though (on a regular basis).
>This was poorly done in both the sub and, from what I
>hear, the dub. However, I think it could have been
>handled best by a dub. I watched the sub and wasn't
>really aware of a change in Kenshin's tone of voice
>when he switched from "polite Kenshin" to "pissed off
>Kenshin." And it took me a while to figure out that
>the lack of "that it is" tack-ons meant that he was in
>dangerous mode. A dub could have handled this by
>having the actor change his voice without adding silly
>crap to the end of his sentences. A sub is stuck with
>either adding stuff to his sentences or making a note
>like "Kenshin is now using polite speech" and "Kenshin
>is now using normal speech" every time he switches.
I don't know about the rest of you guys, but I thought it was fairly obvious when he changed vocal tones. Even if you don't know japanese, it is apparent that his voice is harsher. As Eleanor also pointed out, to those who know Japanese, he uses Ore instead of Sesha when referring to himself. Also as I mentioned when he is Kenshin he ends all his verbs with degozaru.
I might also add that the voice actor who does Kenshin's voice does not have any ability to show the contrast. He just moves his voice to a higher tone when goofy. I think it's quite apparent, in this instance, that the Japanese voice actor did a much better job of conveying the emotions and even speech patterns...even thought it was in a foreign language.
This of course is because....the creator was involved in this process. I don't understand how you can say that something where he isn't involved can be better than something he is directly involved in. I do understand that you are trying to infer that since a US director handles it, he is more capable to bring it to the masses. I disagree. I think a good translation can handle the cultural differences and keeping the original voices is...well...obvious..to keep the original emotions...you know..I just realized I think I'm going in circles :-P
>This is why I say it must be a GOOD dub and that I've
>only ever seen one GOOD dub, Cowboy Bebop. Even there
>you could argue that some of the characters aren't
>quite how the creator intended them to be. But I
>think the series as a whole probably is. You can't
>expect it to be perfect. Just like you can't expect a
>sub to be perfect.
Yes I agree, I think Bebop is a fine dub and is 80% there in terms of accuracy. However, just as you stated, a dub can never be perfect. At the same time a sub cannot either. Not until you go to japan, learn the language, learn the culture can you truly see a "perfect" version. However, I feel a sub is probably closer to 90% accurate. The only difference is a bad translation. A dub on average...I think it's not even 60% accurate. They suffer from poorly cast actors who give poor performances, an even more hacked up script (as I mentioned with them editing on the fly) and no creator's input. Again...one iteration vs. two.
>Yes but again, I think that second iteration of change
>actually brings the final product closer to what the
>creator intended, rather than farther away. If it's
>done well, that is. Anyway, it's a very complicated
>and debatable issue, and I definitely understand where
>you're coming from. In fact, I'm THIS close to
>agreeing with you.
I don't think it's at all possible to get "closer" to the creator's vision/voice/emotion when...you're well..changing his original choices. That doesn't make sense from a logical standpoint. If his vision is X and you translate which subtracts Y, adding new voices doesn't ADD to this, it can only subtract because you are taking away even more of his choices/input (the voices that were cast). Even if you got AWESOME voice actors, they are still fundamentally wrong since he/she didn't choose them or direct them.
Again, I do concede that if the creator WAS involved in the process..that's another story. However, as stated in another reply, I don't think they will since well...anime really wasn't meant for us (usually).
-Daniel
[
Next Thread |
Previous Thread |
Next Message |
Previous Message
]
| |
Feedback: 