| Subject: Re: Ok, on a lighter note... |
Author:
Jake
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Date Posted: 17:54:27 05/01/03 Thu
In reply to:
Daniel
's message, "Re: Ok, on a lighter note..." on 15:54:48 05/01/03 Thu
Yeah we kind of agree and disagree. I still think a GOOD dub is better than a good sub for someone not interested in learning about Japanese culture. And the reason I think that is because a good dub actually stays truer to the original creator's intent than a good sub, precisely *because* of the extra changes that are made.
>Yes, I do think that things such as the characters
>tone, volume and so on ARE important to the original
>intent. Everyone thinks the imagery/animation is
>important (which it is), but the voices that convey
>the actual dialogue are just as important. To
>eliminate the creator's original intent in this is to
>remove a portion of his vision altogether. I also feel
>that the sound is important since it's obvious the
>emotions themselves are conveyed through them. Given,
>the animation does as well (i.e. a girl crying),
>however by the same token, if the girl sounds stupid
>and like she's faking it...we don't sympathize with
>the character.
Yes, I wasn't trying to say that the pitch, volume, etc don't convey emotion. I was trying to say that pitch, volume, etc convey emotion in different ways in different cultures and that a Japanese creator is not as able as a good American translator/director to convey those emotions in an American context.
>However, by the same token, we seem to agree for the
>most part (although it may not appear so). In your
>instance, you specifically mention that if the
>director/creator talked to the US director and
>conveyed what he wanted, this would be acceptable. By
>that token, I wouldn't see it so much as a dub any
>more (since a dub is to DUB over the originally
>intended voice). In this case, he is putting a new
>audio track on that still contains his intentions.
Right, we agree that the original intent should be preserved; but I think we still disagree on who's better at preserving that intent. I think the original creator should be consulted to determine what his intent IS, but the American translator/director should be the one responsible for communicating that intent in an American context. For example, the creator should be able to say "I want this character to sound confident but not cocky," but the director should be the one to determine whether the voice actor meets those criteria or not. This is because he knows better than the creator what confident and cocky sound like to Americans.
--snip stuff about Kenshin's polite way of speech--
>Although a sub cannot translate this (hell they used
>him repeating himself like "I am Kenshin, yes I am"),
>a sub still at the very least maintains the voices and
>inflections.
This was poorly done in both the sub and, from what I hear, the dub. However, I think it could have been handled best by a dub. I watched the sub and wasn't really aware of a change in Kenshin's tone of voice when he switched from "polite Kenshin" to "pissed off Kenshin." And it took me a while to figure out that the lack of "that it is" tack-ons meant that he was in dangerous mode. A dub could have handled this by having the actor change his voice without adding silly crap to the end of his sentences. A sub is stuck with either adding stuff to his sentences or making a note like "Kenshin is now using polite speech" and "Kenshin is now using normal speech" every time he switches.
>I agree with you that someone who has seen the show
>and appreciates it should do that sort of job, but you
>and I know that's not the case. And by the same token,
>the people working on it have certainly not talked to
>the creator or gotten his input. If the creator were
>to come down, talk to the cast, director and so on and
>told them what he wanted...I would be perfectly
>satisfied with this. His original intentions are still
>being preserved and just translated.
This is why I say it must be a GOOD dub and that I've only ever seen one GOOD dub, Cowboy Bebop. Even there you could argue that some of the characters aren't quite how the creator intended them to be. But I think the series as a whole probably is. You can't expect it to be perfect. Just like you can't expect a sub to be perfect.
>I mention in my e-mail that a dub goes through two
>iterations of change while a sub only one. In a dub
>you lose more than a sub...you lose the voices and
>some translation. With subs, you only lose a bit of
>translation (depending on the translator).
Yes but again, I think that second iteration of change actually brings the final product closer to what the creator intended, rather than farther away. If it's done well, that is. Anyway, it's a very complicated and debatable issue, and I definitely understand where you're coming from. In fact, I'm THIS close to agreeing with you.
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