[ Show ]
Support VoyForums
[ Shrink ]
VoyForums Announcement:
Programming and providing support for this service has been a labor
of love since 1997. We are one of the few services online who values our users'
privacy, and have never sold your information. We have even fought hard to defend your
privacy in legal cases; however, we've done it with almost no financial support -- paying out of pocket
to continue providing the service. Due to the issues imposed on us by advertisers, we
also stopped hosting most ads on the forums many years ago. We hope you appreciate our efforts.
Show your support by donating any amount. (Note: We are still technically a for-profit company, so your
contribution is not tax-deductible.)
PayPal Acct: 
Feedback: 
Donate to VoyForums (PayPal):
[ Next Thread |
Previous Thread |
Next Message |
Previous Message ]
Date Posted: 05/11/11 3:21pm
Author: DH
Subject: 
Greg... thanks for checkin' in. Since the buck basically stops here I'll try to answer your questions....****CLICK HERE****
In reply to:
Greg Good
's message, "Ok, Ill reluctantly bite....." on 05/11/11 2:24am
The largest problem we have is available warm bodies to tech, check rule enforcement, perform race day duties, etc. The $$$ that are required to hire folks isn't there and Randy Elliott is our only "full time" volunteer.. until his ride is ready to race later this year. So we do the best we can with what we have, and an official protest procedure is in place if needed. To address your questions:
1. Most of the competitors know each other and the competing engine builders. I haven't heard of any team questioning camshaft diameter.... and I hear plenty of opinions from almost all of the teams regarding one issue or another.
2. No P&G testing... refer to the comments, and #1 above. I have posted numerous times over the past few years about the difficulty in obtaining "real", repeatable #'s from the P&G tool we own. Conrad, Abbott, and others have tried to use the tool and got less than satisfactory results, and certainly nothing concrete enough to DQ someone over. I've heard we could use a single 12v battery, etc from the guys @ NHRA D4 tech, but their bottom line is to pull a head off if there's any question or discrepancy. Not an option for us at @ TPSA race.
3. If you have been following the development of the "PRO" class you'll remember that it was presented as a work in progress and this first year would be used to gauge interest, develop long term rules, and give more teams a place to play. The team in question called me when the new class and preliminary rules were announced. They advised me of the head they had and wanted to know if they would be allowed to run. A primary goal this year is to accumulate some data for future use and I thought it would be very useful to see how Gary's heads stacked up against the other teams. I had a performance goal in mind (based on the pieces allowed and discussions with engine builders & head guys) and decided in lieu of "hard rules" for the 1st season, a weight adjustment would be imposed on any team that ran away from the field. Gary was aware of the weight adjustment and agreed it was a good idea. Again, this is not in black & white, or finalized, but we're thinking somewhere around .07 faster than the aggregate of the class would be a good place to start. So far, the range has been in the .03 to .05 range which is acceptable, especially when you consider the variety of combo's. At the conclusion of this season, we will use the results and data to firm up the rules for 2012.
I do disagree with your "get rid of the rules" comment. Personally, I believe in the integrity, and desire to compete within the rules of the teams, engine builders, head guys, and other vendors. Of course they're racers and will push the envelope but if I believed we had a blatant "cheater" in the group, I'd be done, and the TPSA would join the many other specialty classes that are no longer around. The TPSA was formed by a group of guys that wanted to have some fun racing heads up with a minimum amount of rules, a "reasonable" budget, and trusting that the members would have enough pride, personal integrity, and honesty to comply with the spirit and direction of the class. I believe in that original concept and have attempted to keep it alive.
As mentioned earlier, other than Randy Elliott, we don't have any "full time" volunteers to tech, run the scales, check fuel, get racers to the lanes, etc. and we welcome any additional help. If you would like to help us with tech at the events, that would be great! It's very time consuming to administrate one of these events and Kay & I are doing the very best we can. Richard Otwell donated his time to some of the race day duties @ an event this year... anyone that wants an unbiased opinion about what all is involved should ask Richard.
It's difficult to keep a class going in today's economic environment, much less grow, or add a class. The simple fact is we have to maintain, and hopefully grow car count so that we all have a place to play in the future. As always, any solutions or suggestions to improve our organization are welcome. Please contact me if you have any questions, or need further info. Thanks for your interest in the TPSA!
DH
[
Next Thread |
Previous Thread |
Next Message |
Previous Message
]
Replies:
[> [> [>
Thank you David -- Greg Good, 05/11/11 3:35pm
David, you are always a gentleman to talk to and that is why I was bold enough to post about the rules.
Your are right about teching. There's not money to hire a tech, nor really any time to do anything in depth. Most races end up finishing late. All the guys that run this association are nice guys that just want to race and have fun, and aren't interested in starting any bad blood with a protest.
I'm curious about the head rule for the Pro class. Shouldn't the same rules for Extreme apply, if the possibility exists for a team to get fast enough to have to move up to that class? Why make the Pro guys run a head that had to be in production in 2007 that will not get a sniff at the Extreme class? A set of heads for the Extreme class is expensive, but not expensive as having to buy two sets of heads, one for Pro, then another set for Extreme if they move up, and that is the goal.
We all want to see the series grow and prosper. Maybe a little deregulation would help? Why not let an engine builder use the biggest core cam that will fit? The big core cams are easier on parts, so that's a plus. If the engines aren't being P&G'd then make a deck height rule, which can be checked fairly easy, and let the guys run whatever cubes they can get away with. Cranks cost the same, pistons cost the same.
Far be it from me to even comment on this, I'm just a guy looking in from the outside, so please excuse me if I'm out of order.
Greg
[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[ Edit | View ]
[> [> [> [>
My "two cents worth" -- "Porky Pig " (Grinnin'), 05/12/11 11:32am
Glad to see you are following TPSA enough to have an opinion. From my perspective, the competition between the fast cars in "Extreme" has pushed the envelope to the point it's not attractive to a start-up team to build something that will compete at our level. I think what DH is attempting to do is create a headsup racing venue that is FUN for the racers to compete in, AFFORDABLE for the racers to build and maintain, and entertaining enough to create a fan base. That's a tall order in todays economic enviroment but I think he's headed in the right direction. I suspect the engine rules will evolve into an affordable "out of the box" combination that any competent engine builder could put together for a reasonable price (say $20K from scratch). Cars and drivetrain components will probably more or less follow suit and hopefully 2 or 3 years down the road TPSA Pro Stock will be able to field 12 to 16 cars consistently that are fun to watch and run pretty close together. Controling cost and keeping the competition close will be DH's biggest challenge but I'm confident he's up to the task. Only time will tell but TPSA has already been around a lot longer than many other racing venues in this area. I hope they make it at least 4 more years. I'll be 70 then and I'm pretty sure I'll be ready to "hang'em up" by then.
[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[ Edit | View ]
[> [> [> [> [>
Been following it a lot longer than you know ;-) -- Greg Good, 05/12/11 9:12pm
The terms "Racing" and "Affordable" grow farther apart every year. You can't even build a fast street car anymore inexpensively. I don't know if those terms ever were very close together. I grew up around racing, working at Harold's Garage. I lived right around the corner from him. (I was the floor mopper and car washer mostly. Did brake jobs in between moppings. LOL. People could eat off his floor)
The only reason I mention this is because I know you knew him. It didn't matter what the rules were, he worked and worked and worked until his car ended up being one of the best in whatever class he was racing. Man hours equal money. Whether you take time from paying jobs and do it yuorself or pay someone else to do it, it costs.
The first car I remember him having was the Anglia.... called Bittersweet. There was always some smack talking going on between him and other guys he raced against (controversy is timeless), some of them even had engines built by Tommy's Father, Luther Costales. It was a helluva time and place to grow up. He took the same approach to his show cars too. It didn't matter how much worh it took, late nights, Sundays, going out of town to swap meets scrounging for parts, he did it, like swiss-cheesing the frame on the Anglia. How can you beat a guy like that? You and Roy are just like him as far as I can tell. And that is a compliment.
Those were fun times. Some things were cheaper I guess. One thing Harold din't spend money on was track rental. He tested right there on Friendly Road. The police would stop by and shake their fingers at him.
Anyway,I think David does and exceptional job, and puts a lot of time into it, time he could spend on other things. But getting money out of racing is an exercise in hair pulling.
Maybe I've inhaled too much aluminum, but I think relaxing the rules some would help car count, and car count gets bookings. In the 80's the TPS association had one main rule, no nitrous. Engines varied from 500" all the way up the biggest IHRA engines Reher was building at the time for the Dallas crew. All the cars were ex-Pro Stockers, and weighed about the same. Oddly enough, even with the engine size and no cylinder rule disparity, a 500" Ford won the championship one year.
That was of funny.
[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[ Edit | View ]
