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• Hey, JJ, lets talk about something really important. Is Ratzinger a Sox or Yankee fan? (NT) -- Boston Ram, Tue April 19, 2005 22:26:53
  • If he's a man of God, he's a Yankee fan. ;) (NT) -- JoltinJoe, Tue April 19, 2005 22:30:00
    • But only when the Yankees aren't playing the Red Sox. (NT) -- DamnRam, Tue April 19, 2005 22:53:26
      • Popes typically root for the Cardinals or the Angels. (NT) -- John, Wed April 20, 2005 08:13:44
        • On the collegiate level, I'd suspect that Ratzo is a Holy Cross fan given that most of his views date back to the Crusades. (NT) -- RAMerican, Wed April 20, 2005 12:35:06
        • On the collegiate level, I'd suspect that Ratzo is a Holy Cross fan given that most of his views date back to the Crusades. (NT) -- RAMerican, Wed April 20, 2005 12:35:30
    • J2, I doubt that our new Pope would support an organization know as the Evil Empire. (NT) -- Boston Ram, Wed April 20, 2005 21:39:52

  ---

• There is a major drift from the Church in most of the Western nations, including the United States. The fact that we're picking up converts in the third world (and priests that we can bring over here) is scant consolation for the dwindling church-going population and virtual non-existence of religious vocations in Europe and America. This isn't due just to Western decadence and materialism, but also to the fact that many reasoning people think that the Church's positions on things like priestly celibacy, the all-male priesthood, and artifical contraception are archaic. (NT) -- Ram'69, Tue April 19, 2005 22:54:10
  • I believe that you believe that due to the materialsitic influence of our society. But I'm not going to debate the point here. I'll only repeat that we in the West ned to hear the Church's voice, not demand that the Church hear our voices. (NT) -- JoltinJoe, Wed April 20, 2005 01:08:41
    • Joltin Joe, don't you think it's a bit presumptuous of you to suggest that "materialistic influence" shapes my moral views, when you've never even met me? In fact, I've devoted a 35-year career (with low pay) and a great deal of unpaid free time to community service. As for priestly celibacy, I feel that it should be an option, and that many would people feel that experiencing the fullness of family life would enrich their ministry and broaden their human perspectives. Married clergy were common in the early Church, as they are in many other religions today. As for forbidding the ordination of women, why should we continue a practice that is rooted not in some significant moral or intellectual differences between men and women--but rather in the cultural norms of bygone days? I do believe that priests should bear a resemblance to Jesus, but a spiritual one, rather than a mere physical one. More.... (NT) -- Ram'69, Wed April 20, 2005 20:16:52
      • Sorry, I didn't mean it the way you took it. I didn't mean to suggest that you are materialistic. In America, we all are exposed to materialistic influences, and those influences shape our opinions -- all of our opinions -- in some fashion or to some degree. We've all been influenced. That doesn't mean, in the end, that you are materialistic. I never intended for the comment to be taken that way. I'm sorry for the confusion. (NT) -- JoltinJoe, Wed April 20, 2005 20:46:16
    • ....As for artificial contraception, it seems to me that timing/limiting the birth of one's children, and taking individual or social resources into account in making such decisions, can be the expression of a deep personal responsibility--rather than the "irresponsibe hedonism" of which Cardinal Ratzinger once wrote. There is an old saying: "Roma locuta est, causa finta est" (Rome has spoken, the matter is closed.) When it comes to issues where the Church's position is rooted in deep moral principles (such as those on abortion), I have no problem with the "Roma locuta est" approach. But on matters where Church teachings simply reflect transient cultural norms, I see no reason why there shouldn't be dialogue and openness to different points of view. That's the kind of Church which Vatican II envisioned, and the kind which I hope will eventually re-emerge. (NT) -- Ram'69, Wed April 20, 2005 20:39:35
      • On that last point about openness to different points of view, I would hope that the AIDS epidemic that is ravaging Africa and other poor regions should cause the Church to reconsider its dogma as it pertains to contraception. Quite literally it can be the difference between life and death for millions, which should be the top priority for anyone who professes to be concerned about the suffering for the people who inhabit those regions. (NT) -- DamnRam, Thu April 21, 2005 10:37:18
  • In Latin America (which is what I was talking about specifically), the Church is losing worshippers all over the place. Many are going over to the Protestant/Evangelical/Charismatic denominations for a variety of reasons, and many of the rest are just falling away because they see the Church as irrelevant to their lives. I would say that the Church should understand how its voice is actually coming coming across and decide if that's how it really wants to be heard. (NT) -- DamnRam, Wed April 20, 2005 08:18:10