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Date Posted: 17:10:37 06/20/03 Fri
Author: Bester
Subject: OK Drew, I'll take you up on that (more)
In reply to: Drew Greyfox 's message, "So show me the facts Wolf, show me real examples that prove that HCL's violate free speech or Constitutional rights. So far I've only heard theoretical arguments against them with very little or no actual proof..." on 14:03:01 06/20/03 Fri

First up, the pro HCLS posts here havent had any more facts to back them up than the anti HCLS ones... the only statistics I saw were ones that said "yes, there are hate crimes" and "yes, the majority of the gay community supports them". Fine. I'll accept those statistics. But they don't actually tell me whether or not HCLs will DO ANYTHING USEFUL. And thats the point of this debate. Rational, well thought out arguments for and against HCLs.

So, with that in mind:

"HCL's are unnecessary because murder is already illegal FALSE

And there is factual information and evidence to back up every one of those statements"

Back that statement up with facts, please. Lol. The main issue I have with that is that it totally begs the question of the whole debate. It essentially says "hate crimes are necessary" without providing any reasons. Provide the facts that can back that statement up then, pleae. Specifically, what will HCLs do to reduce hate crime murders against gay people.

"I hear over and over that HCL's are not necessary because such crimes are already illegal and curreent laws need to be enforced, yet that is just what HCL's do, ensure that current laws are enforced without prejudice"

How? How does an HCL combat individual homophobia within the police force. How does it ensure that current laws will be enforced? The FBI is no more magically free of homophobia than any other police organisation. It may be less widespread, but its still gonna be there.

Oh, and as for the criminalising free speech thing... Lamar didnt actually say that. What he said was that it TARGETS speech, which it does. It is the expression of anti-gay hate than makes something a regular crime into a hate crime. So no, it doesnt criminalise free speech AT ALL, it DOES target it.

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