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"Keep it clean, please no foul language
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" FYI -- Lanny Harvey, 13:26:25 12/07/06 Thu (NoHost/204.120.195.43)

Just to let you all know - I now have 5 people wanting to come to a meeting. One from each state - Mo., Ill., Neb., Ok. and KS. 3 of these represent tracks. Some of these people said they will bring more than one person. We need more tracks represented but I think we have a good start.

By the way, to protect the innocent, I will not disclose who these people are. If and when we have the meeting, you will see the real people interested in an organized future. Trust me I won't have this meeting until we get more than this. I won't waste my time nor the people wishing to attend.

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[> Re: FYI -- RACER, 14:37:49 12/07/06 Thu (adsl-69-154-18-79.dsl.ksc2mo.swbell.net/69.154.18.79)

GOOD FOR YOU AND YOUR (5) PEOPLE AND YOUR NMMA GLAD WE WENT OUTLAW AND GOT RID OF NMMA AND THERE GOOFY RULES NOW WE CAN RACE AND HAVE SOME FUN LOL BYE BYE NMMA

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[> Re: FYI -- Andy Brink, 02:02:52 12/08/06 Fri (NoHost/12.206.94.197)

I personally wish you the best. I hope to see a national organization take off. Just remember how the nmma diorientated themselves from the racers and that didnt work. Just my thoughts, Andy Brink

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[> Question for Lanny -- Gary, 09:00:35 12/08/06 Fri (NoHost/63.170.35.88)

I think more people will invest their time if they know change can actually happen. People have asked for change for a while and it seems the rules committee has turned/voted it down. How will that be different during this meeting? If people know that the board people will actually accept change or that the board members that have caused these problems will be out..then there will be a greater attendance.

Thanks,
Gary

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[> [> Re: Question for Lanny -- Lanny, 10:29:14 12/08/06 Fri (NoHost/204.120.195.43)

1. Because, I am not saying what rules there will or should be. That will be up to the people that wish to re-organize. Like I said I WILL NOT be an officer or promoter of ANY organization. I am only trying to save micro racing across the country.

2. If we don't get tracks interested in uniting, then there will be 20 tracks across the country with 20 different sets of rules that can and probably will change weekly at their discretion. If everyone wants that then so be it.

think more people will invest their time if they
>know change can actually happen. People have asked for
>change for a while and it seems the rules committee
>has turned/voted it down. How will that be different
>during this meeting? If people know that the board
>people will actually accept change or that the board
>members that have caused these problems will be
>out..then there will be a greater attendance.
>
>Thanks,
>Gary

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show us the money -- DAVE ROBINSON, 12:21:19 12/05/06 Tue (DHCP-74-134-107-193.insightbb.com/74.134.107.193)

food for the thoughts...... now there is only one track left.. if the NMMA does go under, what happens with the money in OUR ORG. does it get divide among the members or is this someone retirerment plan.. hey don't get mad just answer the facts....... Merry Christmas

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[> Re: show us the money -- Wes, 10:57:25 12/07/06 Thu (wi.wi.com/206.153.209.202)

I would have to guess that the money would first pay any outstanding debt then be divided evenly amongst the "Current" members. For example if there is only one track left in January 2007 the members of the NMMA as of January 2007 would then divide the money. If you choose to not join the NMMA in 2007 you would be left out.

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Will Coles County now be accepting TEMPS this year??? -- Rick Odum, 17:32:45 12/06/06 Wed (pool-71-124-65-203.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net/71.124.65.203)

Not trying to be a jerk but, since this will be NMMA's only track for 07(at this time) do you think the club will change their position on not accepting temp memberships? I have always felt that Temp's was a good way to get new drivers to try out our Org. Opposite of what Pat told me. He don't believe in them.

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" Trying to find some logic!! -- Lanny Harvey, 11:44:59 12/06/06 Wed (NoHost/204.120.195.43)

I have been reading all the posts and trying to find some logic in them but so far I have failed to find any. As usual, everyone wants something for himself not for any organization. If you leave it to the promoters/clubs to make the decisions, they will make them to fit THEIR needs. The people on here ALL have suggestions but they do not want to step forward and TRY to organize nor do each of you want rules that would be in effect for the whole country.

On the 4th, I put a message on here that if people really wanted to reorganize, I would be glad to hold a meeting for those people that were interested, say in Kansas City (a central place and neutral ground). So far, I have received 2 calls - one from Illinois and one from Oklahoma. These guys ARE interested in seeing something done. I don't think we can reform with 2 people. The rest of you want to set around and "Bitch". I do not intend on being ANY KIND of officer or promoter for the organization. I am just interested in trying to find a common ground that most all tracks could live with as I have been racing micros for 33 yrs and don't want to see it die.

Yep, I have been on the hated 'Board' and you are all wrong when you say we do it for the money. The only person on the 'Board' that gets any pay is the President.($2 per member) The others that get any expenses is the VP (2) who get mileage to go to the NATL meeting.(1 way) The rest of us have done it because you the members voted us in and we were trying to do your bidding. Nope, we don't get any mileage. We have done it for YOU and I guess to get all the abuse you guys hand out.

Once again, I will give you my ph. no. 620-275-9463 and my email harv@wbsnet.org and if no more than 2 people are interested in coming up with some kind of rules and organization for the NMMA, I'm done. You people fight it out and good luck. You are going to need it.

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[> Re: Trying to find some logic!! -- Danny Davidson, 12:07:04 12/06/06 Wed (ip70-185-153-228.lu.dl.cox.net/70.185.153.228)

Lanny, I don't personally think that the problem is that noone wants to do anything, but that everyone has given up. After all the post and complaining there still isn't a single post from Pat to acknowledge that there is a problem or that he is even concerned enough to make an attempt to do anything. I made the suggestion to set up a meeting at the Tulsa Shootout to try and figure something out. There won't be a better chance than this to have the majority of people involved in our racing community in one place at the same time.
The suggestion has been made talk to Pat and see if he is even concerned enough to attempt this. The strength of a organization is measured by the number of members and area it covers, not the number of people the President surrounds himself with.
I personally would like to see the NMMA as large as it was 10 or 15 years ago. I can promise you that this won't happen with the attitude that some of the officers are displaying. I have seen that you and Joe are making a attempt to do something, but that isn't what everyone wants. Everyone wants to know that Pat even exists. No answers or replies from him is what is killing the NMMA and driving people and tracks away.
If I am wrong someone please tell me, but if I am right everyone please reply and let the officers know that this approach to the problem is only making it worse.
Thanks, Danny Davidson

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[> [> Re: Trying to find some logic!! -- Jake, 12:45:29 12/06/06 Wed (ws151191.housing-ec.siu.edu/131.230.151.191)

I agree Danny, it's not that we all just want to sit around and "bitch". I would love to help but i'm a 21 year old college student who doesn't have the time nor resources to travel anywhere to put together a meeting, and then after setting the whole thing up, just to have Pat and Loretta shoot it down. Pat has to prove to us that he is WILLING to listen to suggestions or ideas before ANYONE in their right mind would want to drive to help reset an org. with a leader that doesn't care to lead.

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[> Re: Trying to find some logic!! -- Tom, 13:19:07 12/06/06 Wed (216-43-39-185.dsl.mcleodusa.net/216.43.39.185)

Danny's Right Where is Pat And what is he doing other than deleting posts rather than addressing them. TOM

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[> Re: Trying to find some logic!! -- troy, 13:53:22 12/06/06 Wed (adsl-70-234-42-82.dsl.tul2ok.sbcglobal.net/70.234.42.82)

>people what is being said here is reps from all over meeting to come up with a idea so we can all race any where any time. this dose not mean fix the nmma (it is gone). what it could be is a new deal. but a new deal will not work if no one gets involved. think about drinks,gaming,and talking about racing, how cool is that. forget the nmma talk to your track show up and lets get the ball rolling. if a race group can have a point system and race at all track with out costing the tracks we would all be in. REPS FROM DIFF TRACKS NEED TO SHOW AND TALK.

troy

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[> Re: Trying to find some logic!! -- Brent, 14:47:40 12/06/06 Wed (client-216-176-81-143.consolidated.net/216.176.81.143)

>
>
Some of these suggestion's are for the drivers/members as a whole. If you want to call that self-interest then hell yes it's self-interest. The orginazation exists because of the driver's not the other way around. You have to convince the driver's and the track's of the benefit's of being in the NMMA. The main problem is that there really aren't any benefit's to joining that can't be achieved by the track's themselves. If I am wrong then convince me and lay it out and in return you will recieve a full written apology. I am not trying to complain, bitch or bicker. I am just trying to tell you why these driver's and track's are leaving which should be your greatest concern and motivation to change the way the Board run's this orginazation! Believe it or not I am just trying to help.
>

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[> Some Logic -- Gary Bouhl, 14:54:08 12/06/06 Wed (NoHost/63.170.35.88)

At this point most people will not help until certain people are no longer involved with the nmma. The reason people refuse to do anything is because no changes will be made until they are out....we can have meetings on top of meetings....however as long as the powers that be are still present there will not be any change.

Everyone has great ideas and they can be channeled to create a very good situation for this organization, but people don't want to waste their time if the board won't allow the change...and since they never say anything...we must assume they don't want to change.

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" Here is a suggestion -- Jerod, 14:07:28 12/06/06 Wed (NoHost/64.184.16.254)

Here is a suggestion, why not reform to a model that is working, like UMP or IMCA. They don't have a 100 page rule book, they don't tell tracks to close down on their most profitable dates. They don't make racers travel the country side for points. They provide a regional and national points fund. You can sanction as many or few divisions as you want. ie tracks that run stock cars and one division of 600's could still be sanctioned for their 600's. Give points for traveling series (wolfpack, summernationals). Have just one national event in Early October after local tracks shut down to bring up car counts. Everyone has jumped ship something will have to be done to entice them back not the same old, same old. Richard is right the way it is set up now is for the club mentallity and that is not today's reality. First thing is to create a position of public relations director and make that your paid position because it will be the most important. No one realizes for successfull racing you need good racers and good promotors. And as much as both don't think so they need each other pretty bad. In the end if the NMMA doesn't change into something people are excited to be a part of, it is the end.

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" Here's a new board -- Jake, 20:25:18 11/28/06 Tue (ws151191.housing-ec.siu.edu/131.230.151.191)

http://www.voy.com/208505/

i sent a link to bigd so it should be up in the links page before too long......you can post anything on here and it won't be deleted unless it's too obscene

Jake P

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[> THIS IS WHY YOUR NMMA IS LEAVING -- Wayne, 12:04:02 12/06/06 Wed (host-208-60-226-187.owb.bellsouth.net/208.60.226.187)

Due to this type of (sticking to the rules) by the current pres, vp's & board members, is the reason the NMMA is and has been failing.
It is not the memberships falt, Its not the racers falt, its you !
YOU MAKE THE CALL AND READ WHATS ON THIS BOARD
This is what and why these folks went after the NMMA and will continue until they have been replaced with people that will not make a call to save a so called frend or for self gain. As Doctor Charles said; The NMMA has non treatable cancer.

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" Wayne County Speedway -- charles w neal (Doc Chuck), 21:49:38 12/04/06 Mon (161-72.wireless.mvn.net/66.232.161.72)

Wayne County Speedway has voted to NOT be sanctioned with the NMMA in 2007. "GET OVER IT" 3 tracks left.

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[> Re: Wayne County Speedway -- Rick, 22:44:45 12/04/06 Mon (CPE-75-81-8-222.kc.res.rr.com/75.81.8.222)

What are the three tracks?

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[> Re: Wayne County Speedway -- Bill (Congratulation Wayne City), 03:48:36 12/05/06 Tue (pool-72-69-81-129.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net/72.69.81.129)

Never made any sense to me that a person had to pay $50.00 to join nmma club then drive thirty miles to work for nothing. Your club will grow not, Good going, wish you lots of luck and good racing. Bill and Linda Lampley.

>Wayne County Speedway has voted to NOT be sanctioned
>with the NMMA in 2007. "GET OVER IT" 3 tracks left.

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[> [> Re: Wayne County Speedway -- Bill (sorry about type-o error), 03:57:56 12/05/06 Tue (pool-72-69-81-129.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net/72.69.81.129)

Never made any sense to me that a person had to pay
>$50.00 to join nmma club then drive thirty miles to
>work for nothing. Your club will grow now, Good going,
>wish you lots of luck and good racing. Bill and Linda
>Lampley.
>
>>Wayne County Speedway has voted to NOT be sanctioned
>>with the NMMA in 2007. "GET OVER IT" 3 tracks left.
you club will grow now.

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[> Sweet Springs is gone also -- Dean, 05:20:29 12/05/06 Tue (216-43-39-185.dsl.mcleodusa.net/216.43.39.185)

>Sweet Springs Did the same on Sunday Now just 2 tracks

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[> Re: Wayne County Speedway -- wow, 05:26:35 12/05/06 Tue (igwaverly.esu6.org/204.234.247.165)

can you believe it!!!

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[> Re: Wayne County Speedway -- paul, 15:32:35 12/05/06 Tue (client-66-116-35-117.consolidated.net/66.116.35.117)

It deosn't matter if Wayne County goes outlaw or not, they still need help...get over it ASS...

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[> [> Re: Wayne County Speedway -- raceman, 20:16:23 12/05/06 Tue (client-216-176-89-70.consolidated.net/216.176.89.70)

>Paul, Wayne County has help as you say they need it. They are joining up with the POWI racing series. How is that for help?

It deosn't matter if Wayne County goes outlaw or not,
>they still need help...get over it ASS...

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[> [> Re: Wayne County Speedway -- Brent, 20:55:41 12/05/06 Tue (client-66-116-1-227.consolidated.net/66.116.1.227)

Paul, you finished first in the NMMA National Championship, what did you recieve for all that hard work? You are one of the best driver's out there and you can't tell me that it didn't bother you to know that out of all that money that was paid in that they couldn't afford to give you the reward you deserve. The other sanctioning bodies make this happen. You deserve more than a pat on the back and you know it. The question is do we need to join the NMMA when we can give the money to the local track and feel like we are actually racing for something. They gave Joe Smiley $4400 for service's rendered and that money should have gone to the top ten in point's.The NMMA needs us more than we need them and it's about time they realized it. The only people that benefit from joining the NMMA are the Board member's. You deserve more than a pat on the back! The other race track's know this and that is why thing's are panning out the way they are.

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[> Re: Wayne County Speedway -- Derek, 08:07:29 12/06/06 Wed (host21612421118.hosts.lincon.net/216.124.211.18)

>Wayne County Speedway has voted to NOT be sanctioned
>with the NMMA in 2007. "GET OVER IT" 3 tracks left.

Are you guys still racing on Friday nights and how much are you guys going to pay each week

Thanks Derek

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[> Re: Wayne County Speedway -- Shannon, 09:57:10 12/06/06 Wed (dialup-4.159.98.8.Dial1.Chicago1.Level3.net/4.159.98.8)

>Wayne County Speedway has voted to NOT be sanctioned
>with the NMMA in 2007. "GET OVER IT" 3 tracks left.
Yes Derek we will still be racing on Friday nights and the payout will be posted before the races. There will be more information later. We will be having our own website and I will email more about that later.

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" I tryed and failed? but atleast I tryed -- Richard Smith Region 1 chairman, 05:44:50 12/06/06 Wed (supreme2.wireless.maplenet.net/64.255.97.89)

For the past 7years or As it relates to Microsprints, I have been a promoter, racecar owner driver, Volunteer, Manufacture of racing parts, Board member of the NMMA and BUSINESS Owner. My roots in Micro Racing go back to my father racing in the 1970�s.Unlike some of the Arm chair Last inning have all the answer people that have been posting on the Internet I have stepped forward ran for office tried to make a difference I have pointed out mistakes and made a few along the way. I also have not been afraid to speak up at board meetings and make people mad. Having said all that the world has change in the past 50 years as it refers to Micro sprint racing. Racing clubs as the NMMA rulebook is wrote for are a thing of the past. They have become the exception not the rule. No longer will the drive/car owner make the rules it will be the promoter/track owners. I turned in a rule proposal that was a compromise to this problem but the tie vote on the board was met by NO Vote to beak the tie by the NMMA president. The NMMA is a not for profit club who want to tell for profit business how they can operate. I ask. If you owned a business, would you pay money to an organization that gives you no voice or vote on what the guidelines you operate by? Would you want a board whose make up is of people who used to own a racecar and most never promoted a race in their life telling you what to do? One day as a Business owner you wake up and say I don�t need them I can make it on my own! This is what the real problem is it is not because we took the nose wing off of some cars, it not because of some left rear spec tire. It is because we over the years have refused to give up power to the people who run the business of racetracks. The president has stated over and over this is your organization it belongs to the members. If that statement hold true, This will be the end of the NMMA. I have sent my Ideas (most of which have met with prior criticism and ridicule) to the Board members I claim not to have all the answers but I have Identified over and over the problem. My term as Region 1 chair comes to an end I chose to not run due to the fact I am no longer a promoter. I will serve vice chair. One thing You can count on is that in order for the Micro Sprint to survive there will need to be an organization to set a stand it will happen!

Thank you Richard Smith

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" Don't give up! -- Brent, 20:27:01 12/05/06 Tue (client-66-116-1-227.consolidated.net/66.116.1.227)

Do not let this board change your decision. Regardless of what happen's you will be treated with respect and fellow racer's will help you as much as possible. The NMMA board has lost focus on what makes it an orginaztion and it has come around to bite them in the rear. The truth of the matter is that you do not need the NMMA to gain experience and if you need help just ask anyone. It is still the stepping stone for racer's and there is nothing that will change that. I am 33 and will do what it takes to insure that these kids get the chance they deserve!

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" Congratulations NMMA -- Ron Popham, 17:20:24 12/05/06 Tue (12-192-31-203.cell1net.net/12.192.31.203)

Having been around micro racin literally my whole life, this situation that the NMMA is in, is a sad ending to many peoples life long dreams and devoted lives. If you have been around the organization for as long as my family, (50 years) you would understand this has been coming for a long time. I have held club offices, helped promote racing locally, provided equipment to improve the race track at Coles County, chased points, (and WON there stinking points Championships). I have built over a dozen cars over the years before you could buy them over the phone, and sometimes myself and one other person supplied over 50% of the cars racing at Coles County just to keep the gate open. I have witnessed many people try to get other clubs started, only to be discouraged and finally quit because of the turmoil. I personally know how they feel because for two years I drove right by the front gate of Coles County to race outlaw at Macon, Illinois because of the same reasons that the rest of the clubs across the country are moving on. I have witnessed friendships end when points hungry racers or their friends or families bent rules or just flat cheated to gain a couple of stinking points. What good are all these rules, points, or points championships now? Ron Popham R#4 _

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" Who is benefiting? -- Brent, 09:35:55 12/05/06 Tue (client-216-176-81-143.consolidated.net/216.176.81.143)

I will say this because I am not afraid of being bashed. Right now the only people who benefit from being in the NMMA are the board member's! They get money for services rendered but the driver's don't get squat! It's pretty obvious what the problem is. With the situation as bad as it has gotten you would think they would sink that money back into the sport for a points fund. JMO

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[> Agreed 110% -- Wade Huisman, 11:09:13 12/05/06 Tue (74-33-159-89.br2.fod.ia.frontiernet.net/74.33.159.89)

Agreed 110%

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[> [> Re: Agreed 110% -- Brent, 14:32:11 12/05/06 Tue (client-216-176-81-143.consolidated.net/216.176.81.143)

>Agreed 110%
Let's see:
1. We pay the NMMA $75 to join the orginazation and there is no points fund!
2. The track's fund their own weekly payout!
3. There isn't even a payout at the National Events!
4. The only thing the Board is concerned with is rule changes that have nothing to do with the real problem!
5. There is no sport promotion from them!
With just these few opinion's in mind I have just one question. WHY THE HELL SHOULD WE JOIN?
Is it somehow in our best interest give our money away just so they can pay the board member's at the end of the year. I can see why the tracks are going away, there is no real purpose other than insurance. Maybe this will give the board member's a direction to go when making changes.

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" Message Board -- Dean, 13:19:06 12/05/06 Tue (216-43-39-185.dsl.mcleodusa.net/216.43.39.185)

Pat and Joe, It looks like you guys have underestimated the power of this message board. And look at the results of deleting posts you dont like.On the other hand if you were to use this forum to LEAD Take Charge you have a large audience waiting to see IF you will do anything.Come on PAT AND JOE Save THE NMMA!

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" Sad To See -- RacerRick, 11:41:19 12/05/06 Tue (cache-rtc-ac03.proxy.aol.com/152.163.100.132)

Its Sad to see that a few would keep being so narrow minded to mess up such a good thing now there will be only maybe 1 track left I wonder who the Jr Sprints will call now when they throw there fits .maybe it will be up to the tracks like it should have always been ....National org. should have had a few basic rules and let thr tracks or clubs take care them selfs but I guiess the joke is on the ones running this Org. Bye sad to see it go because it did get the Micros up and going all over the country
Have A Great Holliday and see you at the Tracks this summer

Rick Segatto
Fan of Racing all over the country

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" Here's an idea! -- racer_1221, 10:42:39 12/05/06 Tue (static-209-107-225-35.consolidated.net/209.107.225.35)

Let's just vote NMMA out of all tracks/clubs and that will force the lazy people out of office and then we could start over fresh. I SAY VOTE NO FOR COLES COUNTY TO REJOIN THE NMMA! Maybe that will get Loretta's attention also and maybe she will quit campaigning for McGrath!!!! NO NMMA AT COLES COUNTY!!!!!!!!

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" JEFFERSON COUNTY SPEEDWAY (FAIRBURY NEBRASKA) -- CHRIS ROSKILLY, 08:34:40 12/05/06 Tue (lnk2-twinriver-gw.binary.net/216.229.15.177)

I SEE THAT JEFFERSON COUNTY SPEEDWAY IN FAIRBURY NEBRASKA IS LISTED ON THE NMMA TRACKS FOR 07.IT WAS TALKED ABOUT AT THE END OF LAST YEAR AND WE DECIDED NOT TO SANCTION. NO ONE HAS CONTACTED US ABOUT THIS AND WE WILL NOT BE SANCTIONED ON 07 DUE TO POOR LEADERSHIP IN THE NMMA ORGANIZATION AND VERY SMALL CAR COUNTS.

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" My Thoughts Of The NMMA -- Ted Peters (Wrench94), 13:40:54 12/04/06 Mon (c-69-245-175-118.hsd1.in.comcast.net/69.245.175.118)

I think the NMMA needs a strong leadership stand with trying to please the customer (which is the Racers & Members)or they will not have any customers, I was a member for 1yr that was enough for me for every good guy there,there are 10 guys that think they are something!! I think when a racer goes to a track they need to treat him or her with respect and give the same treatment as to the the other guys there. There is such a buddy system it is un real if its black its black if its white its white. I think to build a strong NMMA they need to listin to the people that support it, because this is what the outlaw tracks are doing and it seems to be working with them and pay a little money out for big shows I don't care if your running Stock or Multi the money spent is almost same I know people that run stock motors in multi that do well and I also know people that have big dollars in there motors and still struggle I personally think it takes the whole package to be fast!! its nice to have rules to regulate everything but in todays racing nobody likes to be told what to do with there racing opperation and dollars spent if they think big money makes them fast let them spend it.When you tell them they can't they find somewere else to race. I also think the fees are to high for what you get in return.The pit stop is not a big deal a news letter would get the same thing done. Now if you had full fledge magazine like (sprint car midget) that would attract members just to get the magazine. We were members of the WKA for years now they have a top notch system because they work very hard at it and every race the same people are there running the race scoreing the race and teching the racers plus they have a great magazine to keep people on top of the sport this is what makes it work. Just a thought have 5 NMMA races per year at differant tracks pick out the same people that will work all the races move the races to differant areas to find out your best turnout and make it prestigeous to go and win at one of these events, but don't run day shows and have good tracks that have good track prep then the people that are into points make it the best 3of5 races for a champion this would make for good racin at these events. get rid of regions and narrow the rule book down and make 4 classes jr sprint,NW,Multi,and Rest with NMMA stamped plates let the best man WIN!!! Check plates in restricted class and go home til next time (the people involved with the races cannot race themselves). this is happening already but the NMMA is not involved so get your own deal going with national events. just my 2 cents Ted Peters

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[> Re: My Thoughts Of The NMMA -- Joe Smiley EVP, 20:07:09 12/04/06 Mon (host-65-7-88-143.bna.bellsouth.net/65.7.88.143)

>Ted last year at the National's I and my Daughter had put
in rules proposals to basicly do what yoy are saying and
they were voted down by people Voting SELf INTEREST. One
made the commit to the Board that if we combine the A and
the M Classes then the M class will be so big that every one won't make the A Maim evey week.DUH I did not know
that at a big track with full fields that you made tha e A Main each week.
You tell me what the answer is.
Thanks Joe Smiley EVP

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[> [> Re: My Thoughts Of The NMMA -- Brent, 08:08:26 12/05/06 Tue (client-216-176-81-143.consolidated.net/216.176.81.143)

>>Ted last year at the National's I and my Daughter had
>put
>in rules proposals to basicly do what yoy are saying
>and
>they were voted down by people Voting SELf INTEREST.
>One
>made the commit to the Board that if we combine the A
>and
>the M Classes then the M class will be so big that
>every one won't make the A Maim evey week.DUH I did
>not know
>that at a big track with full fields that you made tha
>e A Main each week.
>You tell me what the answer is.
>Thanks Joe Smiley EVP

I said it once and I will say it again, if you think combining the "A" class and "MULTI" class will solve anything then go ahead and watch the car counts deminish to nothing. The majority of the problem is that with the "outlaw" races the driver's actually have a chance to win some money and since most of the other sanctioning bodies have a top ten points payout the drivers have something to shoot for. What kind of real championship feeling does it give you when your 1st in the nation against a handful of other driver's and then don't get any reward other than a pat on the back. To be the best you have to beat the best and right now the NMMA does not present that opprotunity to a driver, especially since it just lost two more tracks. Take a look at Pike County Speedway, their rules package is simple and they take care of their driver's as far as giving them a chance to win some money during and after the season. They do their best to hold up that rules package regardless of who the driver is and put on a good show in the process.
From what I can tell this is more of a "give and take" issue as far is money is concerned. The "pitstop" takes up money that should go into a points fund or for promoting the sport to the general public. I agree that the tracks should have their own insurance so that it can free up more money for a points fund. I don't think driver's would have a problem paying the money to join if they knew it was being used to better the sport.
as far as the rules are concerned I think they are asking for them to be simplified not drastically changed, there's a difference. The more changes and additions you make , the harder they are to impliment and control. Keep it simple! Don't hear too much complaining from the other classes except for the nose wing rule which did nothing but cost people money. We have to set up a way so that the outlaw cars can run with the "MULTI" class and at the same time not expect them to have to pay $100 bucks to race. Make it the "Open" class, charge $10 bucks extra too race and be done with it. Just my opinion

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[> Re: My Thoughts Of The NMMA -- Ted Peters (wrench94), 05:29:35 12/05/06 Tue (c-69-245-175-118.hsd1.in.comcast.net/69.245.175.118)

>I think the NMMA needs a strong leadership stand with
>trying to please the customer (which is the Racers &
>Members)or they will not have any customers, I was a
>member for 1yr that was enough for me for every good
>guy there,there are 10 guys that think they are
>something!! I think when a racer goes to a track they
>need to treat him or her with respect and give the
>same treatment as to the the other guys there. There
>is such a buddy system it is un real if its black its
>black if its white its white. I think to build a
>strong NMMA they need to listin to the people that
>support it, because this is what the outlaw tracks are
>doing and it seems to be working with them and pay a
>little money out for big shows I don't care if your
>running Stock or Multi the money spent is almost same
>I know people that run stock motors in multi that do
>well and I also know people that have big dollars in
>there motors and still struggle I personally think it
>takes the whole package to be fast!! its nice to have
>rules to regulate everything but in todays racing
>nobody likes to be told what to do with there racing
>opperation and dollars spent if they think big money
>makes them fast let them spend it.When you tell them
>they can't they find somewere else to race. I also
>think the fees are to high for what you get in
>return.The pit stop is not a big deal a news letter
>would get the same thing done. Now if you had full
>fledge magazine like (sprint car midget) that would
>attract members just to get the magazine. We were
>members of the WKA for years now they have a top notch
>system because they work very hard at it and every
>race the same people are there running the race
>scoreing the race and teching the racers plus they
>have a great magazine to keep people on top of the
>sport this is what makes it work. Just a thought have
>5 NMMA races per year at differant tracks pick out the
>same people that will work all the races move the
>races to differant areas to find out your best turnout
>and make it prestigeous to go and win at one of these
>events, but don't run day shows and have good tracks
>that have good track prep then the people that are
>into points make it the best 3of5 races for a champion
>this would make for good racin at these events. get
>rid of regions and narrow the rule book down and make
>4 classes jr sprint,NW,Multi,and Rest with NMMA
>stamped plates let the best man WIN!!! Check plates in
>restricted class and go home til next time (the people
>involved with the races cannot race themselves). this
>is happening already but the NMMA is not involved so
>get your own deal going with national events. just my
>2 cents Ted Peters

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"

" PAT DO YOU HAVE A PLAN? -- Dean, 07:43:10 12/05/06 Tue (216-43-39-185.dsl.mcleodusa.net/216.43.39.185)

PAT WHAT ARE YOU DOING? THE SHIP IS SINKING ...HELP...YOU ARE ON A VERY SLIPPERY SLOPE- YOU ARE LOSING TRACKS FAST.

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"

Information wanted: Glenn Cowsar -- Anita Cowsar Scot, 05:55:32 12/05/06 Tue (dpc691914025.direcpc.com/69.19.14.25)

I am seeking any information someone might have on my dad, Glenn Cowsar. He raced during the 60's and I believe his car worn an award in the late 60's as the "pretties car?" He was killed by lightning in 1971 so any information would be deeply appreciated

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[> Re: Information wanted: Glenn Cowsar -- Julie, 07:41:40 12/05/06 Tue (static-69-95-200-200.ind.choiceone.net/69.95.200.200)

What type of car did he drive? Where did he race?

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"

" Wayne County Speedway -- Shannon Owen secretary, 20:18:17 12/04/06 Mon (dialup-4.159.98.191.Dial1.Chicago1.Level3.net/4.159.98.191)

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[> Re: Wayne County Speedway -- Shannon Owen secretary, 20:22:10 12/04/06 Mon (dialup-4.159.98.191.Dial1.Chicago1.Level3.net/4.159.98.191)

As of this date December 4 2006 the members of Wayne County Speedway voted NOT to be affialted or sanctioned with the National Modified Midget Association.

Wayne County Speedway looks forward to an exciting new "outlaw" racing season.

Anyone who would like a membership application may obtain one by contacting me. I will also have applications available at the banquet which is January 6 2007 at the Wayne City Community Building.

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"

" Here we go again!!! -- Lanny Harvey - Reg. 5 chair, 10:50:18 12/04/06 Mon (NoHost/204.120.195.43)

One last time I will put a message on this board. Why the last time? Because everytime one of 'US' Board Members puts a message on this board we get nothing but bad mouthed but I am a glutton for punishment and will do it "one more time".

1. You people all have these great ideas but will you run for office so you can help implement the idea. NO
2. When your ideas are put in the form of a rule proposal, YOUR rules committee rep votes it down at the rules meeting. Again, when YOUR rules rep has a meeting to go over rules proposals, YOU are too busy to attend and/or voice your opinion and vote. Remember we have for the last several years done our best to vote like YOUR rules committee votes. Like Joe Smiley said below, there were several rule proposals to combine the A & Multi Classes. Everyone is too darn selfish as to sit back and look at the proposals. IF you would combine the classes and REDUCE the wings size, REDUCE the tire width, MAKE them run harder tires where they aren't hooked down so much,(See Bill Merediths post) believe me the two motors would be very equal. The multis couldn't get all their power to the ground while the A's wouldn't be spinning so much and they would be equal and the setup and driver would be much more important. There wouldn't be as many rubber down tracks as there are with softer tires. Granted it was a little smaller track than most BUT my car set fast time at the Nationals with a STOCK motor with the exception of running on methanol and I feel that it would have run very well in the feature if a couple of 1/4" bolts hadn't broken. Notice I did not say it would have won it but we were running second when they broke.
3. You people keep saying we don't want to change the NMMA BUT you do not stop and consider that we have been trying to do what YOUR rules committee tells us to do. We DO want to change. YOU need to go to your local meetings, YOU need to run for office so changes CAN be made. YOU need to go to your Region meetings to see that YOUR local rep is voting as YOU want him/her to. QUIT blaming the board for EVERYTHING and sit back and look at the WHOLE picture. Take some of the blame for the way things have been run because of YOUR lack of caring until everything goes against you.

I know I will be bashed for this post and the board will still be blamed for everything but believe me we want the NMMA to succeed. Start now and get a local rep to come to the spring meeting. Have that person bring a list of people, signed individually, with proposals.(Which means you will have to have a meeting AND have people attend it) If Pat won't give them time to talk, I will resign my position on the board. I know he will tho.

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[> Re: Here we go again!!! -- Bre, 12:54:08 12/04/06 Mon (client-216-176-81-143.consolidated.net/216.176.81.143)

>One last time I will put a message on this board. Why
>the last time? Because everytime one of 'US' Board
>Members puts a message on this board we get nothing
>but bad mouthed but I am a glutton for punishment and
>will do it "one more time".
>
>1. You people all have these great ideas but will you
>run for office so you can help implement the idea. NO
>2. When your ideas are put in the form of a rule
>proposal, YOUR rules committee rep votes it down at
>the rules meeting. Again, when YOUR rules rep has a
>meeting to go over rules proposals, YOU are too busy
>to attend and/or voice your opinion and vote.
>Remember we have for the last several years done our
>best to vote like YOUR rules committee votes. Like
>Joe Smiley said below, there were several rule
>proposals to combine the A & Multi Classes. Everyone
>is too darn selfish as to sit back and look at the
>proposals. IF you would combine the classes and
>REDUCE the wings size, REDUCE the tire width, MAKE
>them run harder tires where they aren't hooked down so
>much,(See Bill Merediths post) believe me the two
>motors would be very equal. The multis couldn't get
>all their power to the ground while the A's wouldn't
>be spinning so much and they would be equal and the
>setup and driver would be much more important. There
>wouldn't be as many rubber down tracks as there are
>with softer tires. Granted it was a little smaller
>track than most BUT my car set fast time at the
>Nationals with a STOCK motor with the exception of
>running on methanol and I feel that it would have run
>very well in the feature if a couple of 1/4" bolts
>hadn't broken. Notice I did not say it would have won
>it but we were running second when they broke.
>3. You people keep saying we don't want to change the
>NMMA BUT you do not stop and consider that we have
>been trying to do what YOUR rules committee tells us
>to do. We DO want to change. YOU need to go to your
>local meetings, YOU need to run for office so changes
>CAN be made. YOU need to go to your Region meetings
>to see that YOUR local rep is voting as YOU want
>him/her to. QUIT blaming the board for EVERYTHING and
>sit back and look at the WHOLE picture. Take some of
>the blame for the way things have been run because of
>YOUR lack of caring until everything goes against you.
>
>I know I will be bashed for this post and the board
>will still be blamed for everything but believe me we
>want the NMMA to succeed. Start now and get a local
>rep to come to the spring meeting. Have that person
>bring a list of people, signed individually, with
>proposals.(Which means you will have to have a meeting
>AND have people attend it) If Pat won't give them
>time to talk, I will resign my position on the board.
>I know he will tho.

There won't be any bashing at all, at least not from me. The only problem with combining the two is that wouldn't it drive an even bigger gap in between the NMMA and everyone else? I thought that was one of the big problems we were trying to solve. I would be more than happy to help out in any way possible, but if we are going to try and get tracks back shouldn't we try to get the rules closer to other sanctioning bodies so driver's could run either one they wanted and not have to spend thousand's to do it. I would be more than happy to sit down anywhere (within reason) and try to figure this out. I will stick my neck out there and try with no fear of being verbally bashed. I think the problem is more about the fact that there is no points fund for the top ten and lack of promotion for the sport. I said in an earlier post that I think the "pitstop" should go away and distribute that money to the tracks to advertise with. If the rules were simplified, followed religiously, and have a set-up for allowing outlaw driver's to race without having to join it would go a long way in getting this orginization back on it's feet. If I can help in any way let me know.

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[> Re: Here we go again!!! -- dfritz, 13:30:30 12/04/06 Mon (NoHost/71.39.56.29)

>One last time I will put a message on this board. Why
>the last time? Because everytime one of 'US' Board
>Members puts a message on this board we get nothing
>but bad mouthed but I am a glutton for punishment and
>will do it "one more time".
>
>1. You people all have these great ideas but will you
>run for office so you can help implement the idea. NO
>2. When your ideas are put in the form of a rule
>proposal, YOUR rules committee rep votes it down at
>the rules meeting. Again, when YOUR rules rep has a
>meeting to go over rules proposals, YOU are too busy
>to attend and/or voice your opinion and vote.
>Remember we have for the last several years done our
>best to vote like YOUR rules committee votes. Like
>Joe Smiley said below, there were several rule
>proposals to combine the A & Multi Classes. Everyone
>is too darn selfish as to sit back and look at the
>proposals. IF you would combine the classes and
>REDUCE the wings size, REDUCE the tire width, MAKE
>them run harder tires where they aren't hooked down so
>much,(See Bill Merediths post) believe me the two
>motors would be very equal. The multis couldn't get
>all their power to the ground while the A's wouldn't
>be spinning so much and they would be equal and the
>setup and driver would be much more important. There
>wouldn't be as many rubber down tracks as there are
>with softer tires. Granted it was a little smaller
>track than most BUT my car set fast time at the
>Nationals with a STOCK motor with the exception of
>running on methanol and I feel that it would have run
>very well in the feature if a couple of 1/4" bolts
>hadn't broken. Notice I did not say it would have won
>it but we were running second when they broke.
>3. You people keep saying we don't want to change the
>NMMA BUT you do not stop and consider that we have
>been trying to do what YOUR rules committee tells us
>to do. We DO want to change. YOU need to go to your
>local meetings, YOU need to run for office so changes
>CAN be made. YOU need to go to your Region meetings
>to see that YOUR local rep is voting as YOU want
>him/her to. QUIT blaming the board for EVERYTHING and
>sit back and look at the WHOLE picture. Take some of
>the blame for the way things have been run because of
>YOUR lack of caring until everything goes against you.
>
>I know I will be bashed for this post and the board
>will still be blamed for everything but believe me we
>want the NMMA to succeed. Start now and get a local
>rep to come to the spring meeting. Have that person
>bring a list of people, signed individually, with
>proposals.(Which means you will have to have a meeting
>AND have people attend it) If Pat won't give them
>time to talk, I will resign my position on the board.
>I know he will tho.

How difficult is it to have each office in the NMMA vacated and have nominations via the internet and have an election (by mailed ballot)in February?

Those who wish to stand up, here would be the chance.

May sound way out there, but this message board has a lot of ideas that need reacted too. And that is not being done by who was elected the last times.

dfritz

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[> Re: Here we go again!!! -- Lanny Harvey, 16:12:16 12/04/06 Mon (NoHost/204.120.195.43)

As you can see by my post above, I am trying my best to save the NMMA. Would anyone be interested in a centralized meeting, say in KC, KS or MO or another central city to discuss ways to save it? This would be a one or two day meeting for anyone representing a track/club. You could bring more people but should be only one spokesman as otherwise you would get nothing done but argue. I don't have all the answers but neither does any other one person. This might be one way to get some results. Let me know by calling me at 620-275-9463 or emailing me at harv@wbsnet.org. I will try to get Pat to set this up. No guarantees but I am trying.

Please let me know your status with your club/track such as owner, pres., vp, etc. If there is enough interest, I will do my best to get Pat to set this up. I will be glad to resign my Region 5 Chair if there is someone else that wants to come in from this area and show me how they can do a better job. I have not been asked by anyone to do this and it is my own idea.

Also, for your information, the current NMMA dues is for the following: Insurance for the drivers Life/medical - $40, 5 paid offices @ $2 ea. $10, Pit Stop - $20 and $5 for rule book printing and postage. As you can see nothing goes into NMMA checking account.

>One last time I will put a message on this board. Why
>the last time? Because everytime one of 'US' Board
>Members puts a message on this board we get nothing
>but bad mouthed but I am a glutton for punishment and
>will do it "one more time".
>
>1. You people all have these great ideas but will you
>run for office so you can help implement the idea. NO
>2. When your ideas are put in the form of a rule
>proposal, YOUR rules committee rep votes it down at
>the rules meeting. Again, when YOUR rules rep has a
>meeting to go over rules proposals, YOU are too busy
>to attend and/or voice your opinion and vote.
>Remember we have for the last several years done our
>best to vote like YOUR rules committee votes. Like
>Joe Smiley said below, there were several rule
>proposals to combine the A & Multi Classes. Everyone
>is too darn selfish as to sit back and look at the
>proposals. IF you would combine the classes and
>REDUCE the wings size, REDUCE the tire width, MAKE
>them run harder tires where they aren't hooked down so
>much,(See Bill Merediths post) believe me the two
>motors would be very equal. The multis couldn't get
>all their power to the ground while the A's wouldn't
>be spinning so much and they would be equal and the
>setup and driver would be much more important. There
>wouldn't be as many rubber down tracks as there are
>with softer tires. Granted it was a little smaller
>track than most BUT my car set fast time at the
>Nationals with a STOCK motor with the exception of
>running on methanol and I feel that it would have run
>very well in the feature if a couple of 1/4" bolts
>hadn't broken. Notice I did not say it would have won
>it but we were running second when they broke.
>3. You people keep saying we don't want to change the
>NMMA BUT you do not stop and consider that we have
>been trying to do what YOUR rules committee tells us
>to do. We DO want to change. YOU need to go to your
>local meetings, YOU need to run for office so changes
>CAN be made. YOU need to go to your Region meetings
>to see that YOUR local rep is voting as YOU want
>him/her to. QUIT blaming the board for EVERYTHING and
>sit back and look at the WHOLE picture. Take some of
>the blame for the way things have been run because of
>YOUR lack of caring until everything goes against you.
>
>I know I will be bashed for this post and the board
>will still be blamed for everything but believe me we
>want the NMMA to succeed. Start now and get a local
>rep to come to the spring meeting. Have that person
>bring a list of people, signed individually, with
>proposals.(Which means you will have to have a meeting
>AND have people attend it) If Pat won't give them
>time to talk, I will resign my position on the board.
>I know he will tho.

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"

" Jr Sprints at Ft. Wayne -- Chuck Kidwell, 08:37:38 12/04/06 Mon (adsl-76-214-160-231.dsl.ipltin.sbcglobal.net/76.214.160.231)

JR SPRINTS ADDED TO RUMBLESERIES OF INDOOR RACING

Schilli National Lease has posted $500 to Win for the Briggs World Formula Jr Sprint Feature on Saturday Nite, December 30th at the Ft Wayne Rumble Series. Other Cash and Contingencies for the two nights or racing are continuing to add up including $100 from Main Source Bank, a Wing from Bad �S� Wings, Briggs Aluminum flywheel and ignition kit, Two $50 discount certificates on engine blueprinting from Total Concept Racing Engines, and a Right Rear tire and Kid Bucks �Checks� from Kidwell Racecars.

Information on these cars and entries can be obtained at :
Telephone Trackside Support
317-507-5968
Postal address
288 B Gasoline Alley, Indianapolis, IN 46222
Electronic mail
General Information: chuck@kidwellracecars.com

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[> Re: Schedule Information -- Chuck Kidwell, 08:44:55 12/04/06 Mon (adsl-76-214-160-231.dsl.ipltin.sbcglobal.net/76.214.160.231)

>
>
> Load in and practice is Thursday, Dec 28th from 4pm to 9pm with racing on Friday, Dec 29th and 30th. The Friday nite heats and feature and Saturday heats will determine the starting grid for the $500 to win Feature.

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"

" Engine Teching -- Moe Bigsley, 21:07:11 12/03/06 Sun (CPE-65-30-54-210.kc.res.rr.com/65.30.54.210)

In a previous post Pat said that Dean and Richard are going to teach how to tech a stock engine. Didn't Richard get caught cheating earlier this year? And what does Dean know about engines? Only how much they cost! Read this post fast because we know it won't last long.

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"

" "Build it and they will come" -- Bill Meredith, 10:32:02 12/01/06 Fri (kcpgw-vip1.kcp.com/198.62.69.76)

Are we witnessing the death of the NMMA or merely the potential catalyst for the second coming of this once proud organization?

I see no hope to regain tracks and members if we continue to operate under the current methods � so what do we do??? My thought is: we lock five people who have intimate knowledge of the PAST, PRESENT and a vision for the FUTURE of this sport into a room and let them hash out potential class structures and rules. Those ideas are then discussed with racers, fans, manufacturers, etc� to determine feasibility. Grace period rules are used for the 2007 season with full implementation of the new NMMA rules in 2008.

Here are a few things to fix!

We reduce the quantity of classes running for National Points to FOUR with the ability of each track to run �sportsman� class(es) as they see fit (no National Points for the sportsman class(es)).

EVERY class has tire rules (durometer and wheel width on the rear tires).

We rewrite the rulebook with more technical influence (rules like: �car must be painted an attractive color� needs to be removed!!!).

We supply tech kits to each sanctioned track with instructions on proper tech.

We completely change the method to change rules in the future � rules MUST be locked in for long terms � constant change is BAD for the sport!

We change the Championship race formats to eliminate single car qualifying and figure out how to preserve the track surface (STOP THE RUBBER DOWN RACING!!!).

Jr. Sprint class MUST have sealed engines and a track supplied fuel. (It is sad that parents CHEAT, but those are the facts!)

We must supply the sanctioned tracks with simple instructions and forms for written protests, appeals etc� Too many times this process is messed up because no one really knows how to do it!

What we DO NOT want to do:

We DO NOT want to make the rule book disappear! Come on folks � I have been reading your rants about how the NMMA book to too thick � that is silly! The majority of the rule book consists of race formats, points structure, job descriptions for each official and rules for proper behavior of participants. The minority of the book are car specifications! The book needs an overhaul (it is written in �good ole boy language�), but we MUST RETAIN a SOLID rule book! To compare this rule book with that of an �outlaw� track (with only ONE class of car running) is apples to oranges!
I have said it before and I will say it again and again and again �. The majority of the car specs in our rules book were WANTED by the racers at one time or another! We have the classes we have because that is what the RACER wanted!!! The racer always wanted a cheaper class and we just kept adding these classes instead of CORRECTING the classes we already had! There were some silly rules changed in panic due to cheating racers, misguided opinions or personal gain (cdi box, wing size, $1500 claim, etc�), but overall � it is what YOU wanted!

We DO NOT want to adopt all of the �outlaw� specifications: Thank goodness the 636cc Kawasaki is NO MORE!!! Now let�s stop talking about it! The 619cc limit is also kind of dumb since the majority (if not ALL) of the modern 600cc engines are nikisil lined cylinders � so lets get back to these cars being a MAX of 601cc!!!! The �outlaw� (and now the ignorant NMMA Multi-Class) wing rules are absolutely the second dumbest thing I have seen in micro racing over the last two decades from a COST CONTAINMENT standpoint! I say (and I am a wing builder!!!) get rid of anything over a 48� long, 24� tall sideboard. (by the way � the FIRST dumbest thing in micro racing is growth of the size of the right rear tire!)

We DO NOT want OPEN engine rules in the Restricted class without some type of an engine claim or exchange!!! Open engine rules will KILL this class! This is the one class that 3 or 4 horsepower really does make a HUGE difference! Take a look at NASCAR restricted engines and especially take a look at the Formula SAE student design competition 600cc engines. They can get amazing power through restrictive carburetion due to porting, cams, etc� DON�T FOOL YOURSELF � there are parents who will spend the money on these engines to gain the advantage!!!

We DO NOT want to enact major change in 2007 without GRACE period rules. We publish our 2008 rules at the beginning of the 2007 season and allow a GRACE season (2007) to use up your soon to be illegal wings, wheels, tires and engines. It is fairly easy, we can allow larger wings, or 619 and 636 engines, but you will somehow be penalized (weight or tire compounds).

The simple truth is: We NEED a National Organization, but WE (the NMMA) MUST change. We MUST NOT forget that this is an amateur sport! The majority of us do not make a living racing Micro-Sprints, it is a HOBBY and it will COST us money. It is supposed to be FUN. We DO NOT need to cater to the people who have more money than sense � they are in the minority! We DO NOT need to cater to engine builders, tire/wheel manufacturers etc�-- these people are dictating the future of our sport by �forcing� the racer to buy the softer, wider tire, bigger wing, badder engine etc... We need to enact rules that will benefit the �average� racer for years to come. For the adult classes, limiting TRACTION, while allowing �open� engine rules, will allow those with the money to still spend it, but give the guy with a stock or mildly built engine and a perfect setup the opportunity to compete for wins. This is supposed to be FUN -- putting $8000 in an engine builders� pocket is not FUN to most of us and blowing that high $$$$ engine is definitely not FUN.

A STRONG National Organization with a mind for COST CONTAINMENT through simple and enforced rules � �build it and they will come�.

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[> Re: "Build it and they will come" -- Pete, 11:38:48 12/01/06 Fri (sed-wireless-216-74-210-162.iland.net/216.74.210.162)

Bill, I agree with most of what you posted except running the 07 rule changes. In my opinion the rules changed last Aug for 07 need to be thrown out. They made absolutely no sense ie: removing nose wing,softer LR, wing size multi etc. All these rule changes did was continue to drive racers away from the NMMA. I do agree with the majority that whatever rules there are that they need to be simple and in alignment with other micro tracks so we might get better car counts and hopefully bring tracks back to NMMA. The pit stop mag seems to be a big drain on NMMA. Get rid of it and go online . Probably 99% of members have a PC and the ones that don't can probably get it printed out by a friend or relative. JMO

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[> Re: "Build it and they will come" -- W. Pat McGrath, 12:15:16 12/02/06 Sat (r163h39.dixie-net.com/64.89.163.39)

Bill thank you for your post I enjpyed it and that is why I'm answering.

1. We had a rule proposal to combind the multi and "a" class this year, it was voted down at the rules committee meeting and the board followed there vote. We did how ever approve a sportsman class for no National points as a track option to offer an inexspensive class of cars.

2. The members in the multi class do not want a tire rule.

3. The rule book does need work.

4. The march meeting was called to bring ALL REGION TECH people along with engines in and Richard and Dean are going to teach them to tech the stock classes.

5. I would like to see two thing, when a rule effecting cars is passed it could NOT go into effect for one racing season and then could not be changed for three years.

6. Format I do not have a comment at this time.

7. I have been in racing 53 years and you will always find people that play with the gray area no matter what rules you put in.

8. We have had an engine claim form, a protest and appeal form and they are sent out each year when track affiliates.
People receiving these forms need to make sure track referees are given these forms.

The board has also approved a temp membership for $25.00 per sanction to try to get outlaw drivers to race with us.

Thank You again for taking the time and continue to post.

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[> [> Re: "Build it and they will come" -- Bill Meredith, 18:05:20 12/02/06 Sat (adsl-69-154-212-164.dsl.ksc2mo.swbell.net/69.154.212.164)

Thanks for the response Pat:

I still agree we need to combine the A and Multi Class.

With that said, I am a member of the Multi Class and I want a tire rule (both durometer and width) and I was never asked my opinion on this matter before last years votes! Also, I would bet I could find a large contingent of Multi Class racers at my track that would LOVE a tire rule!

For that matter, I also want a 601cc MAX displacement rule and a 10 or 12 foot wing rule (with 48" sideboards) because I am in TOTAL understanding of the train wreck which lays ahead if the Micro Sprint community does not immediately enact some cost containment measures. $350 wings, 15" wide wheels and $8000 engines will KILL the outlaw movement eventually - mark my words - it is only a matter of time!

Everyone needs to OPEN their eyes to the future and quit thinking merely in the present. We think we are in a growth period for Micro racing, but that is total POOP!! I remember 30 and 40 car fields at weekly NMMA races at Sweet Springs (single class) back in the '90s. I remember the Fall and Spring Fling with 200+ cars signed in. Today, I see $10,000 to win shows that draw ONLY 120 cars and they think they really did something - BULL - for that money you ought to see 300 + cars, but open engine rules and $100 entry fees keep people away!! We will only hurt this sport if we continue to allow big wings, big soft tires and thus high dollar engines!

If I am wrong - then explain to me why DIRT motorsports is ready to enact tire rules in the World of Outlaws and potential wing rules in years coming (read about it in the December issue Sprint and Midget Magazine - both Doug Auld's column entitled "Unhook 'em" and Jeff Swindell's column entitles "Tire Wars"). They already have tire rules (for all FOUR corners) of the DIRT modifieds.

Do you Micro racers realize the stupidity of how much rubber and how much wing we have compared to an 800hp sprint car? We have a wider RR tire than a 350hp Midget! That is just plain silly! Congratulations to Hoosier for making an incredible tire, but I side with the guy from American Racer who took the time to write a column for our Pit Stop magazine apologizing for allowing our RR tires to grow to their current insane dimensions!

Lets look ahead:
It is only a matter of time before the 'also rans' at the 40 to 60 car 'outlaw' shows get fed up with running a $3000 to $5000 engine in a 6 to 8 lap heat and a 10 to 15 lap semi-main and not get paid. These are the guys that will want tire, wing, wheel etc... rules so why not do it and start appealing to them now? This is our future - the 'top outlaws' will not immediately come run with us until our payback equals or exceeds the weekly outlaw tracks so quit fooling yourself that they will.

Think about it - if we cut the racers' cost through smart and enforced tire and wing rules, thus reducing engine costs, and build our car count to 30 to 40 cars - we could easily pay $300+ to win and $20 to start without burning up a soft tire and lugging an $8000 engine! Seems OBVIOUS to me what the better deal is!

I still say that we the NMMA need to enact rules such as this - YES, there will be immediate resistance, but over time the masses will return and we will again be the most important organization in Micro racing. It is just SIMPLE economics! Costing less to race is the same as running for more money except we ALL benefit - not just the elite teams!

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[> [> [> Re: "Build it and they will come" -- Joe Smiley EVP, 21:32:12 12/02/06 Sat (host-65-7-66-80.bna.bellsouth.net/65.7.66.80)

>Bill I put in a Rules proposal to combine the A and M Classes,with certain wing and tire requirments.It was passed by the Rules Committee 12 to 1 but voted down
by the Board 3 to 5.
My daughter LaRae put in a rules proposal to make all
rules pertaining to the 600cc motors the same in the
A,R,NW and M classes .It was voted down in both
the rules committee and the Board.
I have not given up yet nor has Pat.
Thanks Joe Smiley EVP

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[> Re: "Build it and they will come" -- Brent, 18:26:10 12/03/06 Sun (client-66-116-1-227.consolidated.net/66.116.1.227)

>
I have to disagree with one thing though. There is nothing wrong with running the 5 classes of car's. Every class has it's purpose, but from what I can tell the problem here is too much micro-management! You have got to keep it simple when it comes to the rules on these car's and stick to them like glue no matter who the driver is. If you try to combine the "A" class and "MULTI" class you are gonna run out a bunch of driver's who can't afford to run a $7000 engine. What your suggesting sound's all good in theory, but let's be realistic about it. There are not too many drivers, if any, in the "MULTI" class that run a stock engine and tire rule won't equal thing's out at all. The best "MULTI" driver's will tell you that the spec "NMMA" tire that is rock hard doesn't slow them down that much at all. When that tire get's hot it stick's like glue and doesn't wear hardly at all! I've seen a good "A" class car try to run with the multi cars and he get's smoked, especially on the straight's where the motor comes into play the most.
1. Keep the classes you have and keep the rules simple and clear.
2. Follow those rules to a "T" regardless of who the driver is.
3. Have a rule that every driver must have an engine manual on hand at any given time. So if there are any question's regarding the engine it can be tech'd right there and the manual can be used to check for proper spec's.
4. Drop the fee for joining the NMMA a little and get rid of the "Pitstop". Take this money and have a top ten point's fund, give out money at the National's instead of trophy's and PROMOTE this sport! Get these car's out in front of the public better. How many driver's left the orginazation because of the rules and how many left because other sanctioning bodies find a way to get as much money back to the driver's as they can. The NMMA doesn't do this and would be willing to bet that if you start doing it that a lot of driver's would come back.
6. Either the rule's committee makes the rules or the Board does! Too many chief's and not enough indian's. The Board is elected for this purpose. If people feel that they don't have their best interest in mind as far as the rules are concerned then change your vote next time.
7. Incident's that happen, like Mr. Neal for example, can't happen, period! This is the other thing that is driving people out of this orginazation. Everyone must be held to the same standards no matter what. Anything less discredits the sport, the track and the people running the show. I don't care if your the President of the U.S., if you do what Mr. and Mrs Sullivan did then you get punished, hand's down no question's asked!

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" Selective answering -- Danny Davidson, 15:49:42 12/03/06 Sun (ip70-185-153-228.lu.dl.cox.net/70.185.153.228)

It seems that Pat only responds to the post that he likes. I didn't speak badly about anyone or say anything negative about the NMMA in my post. Just trying to get the officers to make the most of a prime chance to do some recruiting. Still no reply. As soon as Bill puts a post on that Pat likes he takes the time to reply, and does so by stating that he was replying because he enjoyed the post. This state of mind is what is driving the racers and tracks away from the NMMA.
I am not wanting to start a pissing match or bash anyone. I am just wanting to see someone take every opportunity that is presented to try and save the NMMA. It is getting more apparent every day that noone cares to do anything to save the NMMA.
If the officers were working for the NMMA they would address all issues good or bad. Not concerned if someone is going to bash them or say something they don't like.
Just think what would happen it the President, Vice President, of the United States or our other elected officials took this attitude.
Look up guys the country (NMMA) you were elected to take care of is about to be gone. Damn mabe Bush should have gave up and let Saddam and Bin Ladem have the U.S.. That's what is happening with the NMMA.
It's too bad that it has came to this. I'm sorry to see what was once one of the best come to rest. Pat please don't run for president of the United States. I don't think that there is enough room in Mexico, and Canada for everyone to run to.

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" nmma -- deon, 14:36:29 12/03/06 Sun (cache-mtc-ac03.proxy.aol.com/64.12.116.132)

I have been checking the message board and reading all about the future of the NMMA.
I am in North Carolina, we were the only nmma track in region 3, we raced with the nmma in 2002,2003 amd 2004.
My son and I both raced and my son was the 2004 B class national champion.We traveled up to 16 hours going to the nationals, traveled up to 12 hours to the easterns.
For what, a $50 trophy for being the natioal champion.
The last 2 years we have raced outlaw 600`s.
We raced at the last 2 super 600 shootouts in Pa. and this year at Lindas national open with over 100 cars at all 3 races.
If the nmma wants to grow just have 3 classes, 600 wing, 600 wingless and 600 restrictor.
Follow the rules that the Pa tracks have. They must be doing something right, they get cars, and they pay decent too.
Deon Arnold

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" NMMA needs to change this winter before its too late. -- Mike Popham, 13:57:26 12/03/06 Sun (12-192-31-201.cell1net.net/12.192.31.201)

The NMMA has nothing to offer anymore under the present structure and costs too much for no more than there is.

In the 2006 Rule Book under #1200.5 Rule Adoption Procedure, Rule #1200.5(h)allows for immediate balloting of the Board members by the President "if such emergency is deemed necessary to the interest and welfare of the Assn." to change things now, instead of the rule proposal system which will take to long.

1.Lower the dues by giving the PitStop to only the people that want it.
2.Also lower dues by dropping the insurance on tracks/drivers. (Keep NMMA Insured) Pat told me that it cost $41 per driver for insurance. Get rid of it. Let the tracks/drivers take care of their own. No more tracks than there are, there sure isn't a "quanity" discount. There are hundreds if not thousands of tracks doing it on their own now anyway.
3.Change the structure of the NMMA so that it sanctions events, not tracks. Find a major sponsor. If a driver wants to get points for the year-end purse then they join, if not, they don't. No one is going to join until there is a reason. Points mean very little when there is less than 100 "fulltime" drivers in any class and less than 400 total "fulltime" in the NMMA. Thats using the '06 car count. It will be even less in '07.
4. The Board needs to do what it knows needs to be done. Literally throw out the rule book and start over. The Board has been saying that the rule book needs changed for over 15 years now and still hasn't done anything about it. Rules and Classes just keep getting added.

Open class- if you got the $$ to blow then bring it on. 600cc max
NW and Restricted- Spec what you can tech. Stock cam gear,compression,bore/stroke and electrics.

If you want to save the NMMA then it needs to change now. If you want to keep it a "mom and pop" organization like it was up until about 20-25 years ago when the majority of cars were no longer being home built, then leave it alone and don't forget to turn off the lights.

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" Testing -- Just Testing, 12:16:18 12/03/06 Sun (dsl-atm-66-201-147-118.oregontrail.net/66.201.147.118)

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" Impossible -- Gary Bouhl, 12:58:56 12/01/06 Fri (NoHost/63.170.35.88)

All of these suggestions are impossible to achieve until the current board members are gone. IT IS OBVIOUS TO SEE THAT THE CURRENT BOARD MEMBERS DO NOT WANT THIS ORGANIZATION TO SURVIVE! Otherwise why would they ignore all of this year after year and watch car counts/tracks vanish. How could they just sit around and not come up with anything after all of this time? The potential for a good national organization will not be achieved with our current leadership.

Pat McGruff was right last night when he said this was all being done on purpose so that they could put an end to the NMMA...I wish I would have copied that one to repost!

For all of the people interested in a National Organization....you will have a better chance of creating a new national series than wasting time on this one...its unfortunate that after 50 years its going to go away because of poor leadership.

Is our board going to do/say anything?

I've never been answered as to why anyone would run for the board and not do anything to help the sport.

And why is it our president works harder to have messages deleted rather than do something to save the organization?

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[> Re: Impossible -- Joe Smiley EVP, 16:32:03 12/02/06 Sat (host-65-7-65-19.bna.bellsouth.net/65.7.65.19)

>Gary I don't know how you can say that every one on the Board is doing nothing to help change the NMMA.
Before last years Spring meeting each board member was ask
to present ideas to help the NMMA in the next five years.
I presented several different proposals and then sent them in as Rules Proposals.I got a lot of positive feed back on
this board and E Mails.At the Board Meeting at the Nationals all were voted down by members voting self interest.Untill the tracks that are in the NMMA come to
the board meetings and take part this can happen.
SIR nor WAYNE CO sent anyone to the meeting to vote their
interest.
DO not tell me I am not interested in the NMMA.
Thanks Joe Smiley EVP

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" PAT -- Jake, 10:56:43 12/02/06 Sat (dial-159-86.shawneelink.net/206.125.159.86)

Pat, there has been a post put on my board which has a qoute of you saying "There are a group of people from SIR trying to tear us apart" or something to that sense. ARE YOU JUST PLAIN IGNORANT?!?!?!?!?!?! You, yourself and Pat McGrath are earing the NMMA apart by your unwillingness to accept or acknowlegde any form of suggestions/ideas. YOu won't even comment on Bill's suggestions, who has no link what so ever to SIR. GET A FREAKING CLUE!

Jake

this will be posted on my board as well

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" Who is really to blame??? -- Jeremy, 06:07:35 12/02/06 Sat (NoHost/64.184.16.254)

As a previous member for 9 years and observer the last 3 I just want to interject one thought. The racers have some blame with this mess in misusing their votes. You knew what you were getting when you voted these guys in at a time when everyone was crying about the rule book and lack of promotion. And why?? I wish I had the answer but I don't. One reason maybe the lack of people willing to take these jobs because you need to be retired or a self employed, empty nester to have the time to do the job properly. Maybe the racers are afraid to vote people in that may actually change things. It is just like politics if you don't like the current movement of things you have to vote someone else in. The current high powers should be happy the SIR guys want to have NMMA and are trying to change things. Here in Indiana it appears that we decided to jump the dying ship and aren't looking back. So next election vote Billy Rowlee if you want change

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" Pat McGrath distinguished NMMA President -- Jake, 22:20:09 12/01/06 Fri (dial-159-102.shawneelink.net/206.125.159.102)

Pat, will you ever talk to us? Do you know that all you are doing is creating more and more doubt in the NMMA? Do you realize the amount of people you are driving away with your unwillingness to answer? Why don't you resign and let Joe or Dean take over if you don't want anything thing to do with the mess the the NMMA is in? At least email me/us and give us a clue man.

Jake Palmisano

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" Where is Pat and Joe? -- Tom, 09:51:22 12/01/06 Fri (216-43-39-185.dsl.mcleodusa.net/216.43.39.185)

Look at the archives on this board from last winter and you will see it was the same B.S. then as it is now the only difference is the NMMA is in worse shape a year later.Our leaders appear to be doing the same as last year. If you remember there was hope that our leaders were working on a plan to turn the NMMA around but as it turned out they,we did nothing to change the direction of the failing association.
We need a compleat restructure,a new plan,a president that will face the membership and work to save what we have and rebuild.The shoot-out is a good example, it's the bigest race of the year and we don't or havent use it to promote ourselves.One other thought... Why don't we poll the members
and ask who actually wants to receive the Pit Stop mag.we spend a lot of money on it would the money be better spent on a points fund or promotion or both?

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" Shootout -- Danny Davidson, 18:59:42 11/30/06 Thu (ip70-185-153-228.lu.dl.cox.net/70.185.153.228)

The biggest race of the year is coming in less than a month. Thus being the Tulsa shootout. There are already people entered from 19 different states, and no telling how many different racing organizations. What plan does the NMMA have to send someone there to try to gain members and or tracks, or join forces with other racing groups to salvage the NMMA?
I think that if the officers don't jump on the chance to shake a few hands, and try to set up some kind of major meeting for anyone that wants to attend during this weekend they are wanting the NMMA to die. It wouldn't be very hard to pass out fliers as everyone is waiting to move in. They will run everyone out of the building about 8:00 Wednesday night. Hold a meeting at 9:00 at a motel meeting room or a restaurant banquet room.
Even if it cost the NMMA a few thousand dollars it is better than sitting on your butt and watching it die.
Some of the officers come on here and talk about the new members posting and complaining. It may be happening or may not. I'm not new. My father started racing as a NMMA member in 1963. I was born in 1964. I grew up in the NMMA racing family and joined the NMMA myself in 1981 when I started racing.
I didn't join the NMMA this year, and won't join again until something changes. It isn't worth joining to have to travel 700 plus miles to race. Then not have any cars to race against. If I counted right there were only about 45 Multi's, and 36 A" class cars that ran 12 weeks or more.
After watching this message board it is clear to me that some of the officers are only doing things that benefit them like trying to get the Nationals to be held at a facility that is pratically in their back yard.
If the officers of the NMMA want to see it survive they will stop and listen to the majority and make a attempt to meet with as many people as possible and listen to what they have to say and all parties involved work together.
Make it worth joining again andI am sure that myself and alot of other people and tracks would come back to the NMMA. Almost all of the post that I have read all say that they enjoyed racing with the NMMA and had made alot of friends.
Let's either make some changes and take the NMMA back where it was before or bury it all together.
You can erase this post, frame it, ignore it, or do anything with it you want to, but if there isn't some kind of effort made to save the NMMA it will not be around in a few years.

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[> Pat....why can't get answers? -- Gary Bouhl, 06:59:06 12/01/06 Fri (NoHost/63.170.35.88)

This is another great post!

There are some great points presented here and certainly what a great place to showcase a newly "redesigned" NMMA during the Shootout!

Pat I'm asking you to let us know what the plans are...and if there aren't any then let us know and we'll all go away and leave the issues alone. Its obvious you don't care about the NMMA or else you would do something. It was sad to see that your wife has more posts concerning these issues than you.

If all else fails we'll all know who made the final flush of the NMMA.

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[> [> Re: Pat....why can't WE get answers? -- Gary, 07:03:16 12/01/06 Fri (NoHost/63.170.35.88)

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Post Deleted pat mcgruff -- Webmasters Office, 01:06:36 12/01/06 Fri (12-207-154-145.client.mchsi.com/12.207.154.145)

Your post was deleted because your e-mail address was not working and was not a authentic address.

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" Where's our President when we need him? -- Brent, 17:41:20 11/29/06 Wed (client-66-116-1-227.consolidated.net/66.116.1.227)

I do understand what Mrs. McGrath is saying to a point, but I can also see what the member's mean when they are wondering where Pat is. If there are changes in the works what are they? Show us that something is being done instead of ignoring all of this feedback by not saying a thing and deleting messages that are not to his liking. It simply makes it look like you would rather do nothing than face the problems and that obviously upset member's. This is the responsibility of the ELECTED President and yet we are told to talk to someone else (track's, region vp's,etc...). It should not matter who hear's these disagreement's with the way thing's are going, especially if it is a nationwide problem. If he is not able to perform the duties assigned to the position then give it to someone who can handle it. There is no disrespect in admitting that and Mr. McGrath should understand it. I met him briefly at the Nationals and he seems like a great guy, but it simply is taking too long for decisions to be made. Sometimes you have to skip through all the red tape and just get it done before there is not an NMMA left too be President of. If you want to be politically correct about every little move this orginization makes that's fine, but by the time you get something done you might have one track left. It simply takes too long to get things done. If it's in the best interest of everyone involved then just do it. If it doesn't work then try another idea, there will always be plenty of idea's, but not a lot of time to try them.
Show us that there are minds at work other than us. Show us that our elected officials are doing the job they were elected to do. It takes work and a lot of people to make it work, but if you just show some sign of being concerned by getting on here and talking to people then maybe people will get behind you instead of in front of you.
I am new to this sport, but I know enough about racing and sanctioning bodies to know that there is way too much political red tape that has to be moved to get things done in this orginization. I agree that the rules should be gone through and cleaned out. It should not consist of more than a hand full of pages and at this point it is a small book! There needs to be a sense of urgency among all of the board member's and if there isn't then that is the main problem! I believe in one word, "KISS", "Keep It Simple Stupid!".
I will help in any way possible, because I believe that this can be fixed. I have alot of faith in people, but sometimes even the best need a boot to the rear to get them going, (myself included). You have my e-mail and alot of other's, take the time and write to us and listen to our suggestion's. People won't get behind a person they don't believe in, so my challenge is to Pat and every other board member. Make that extra effort and show us you do care about someone's opinion other than your own.
I will say one last thing though. If all of these suggestion's go on deaf ear's and nothing is changed then there will be only one person too blame and that is a big burden too carry around knowing you buried the NMMA because you thought you knew it all.

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" National meeting?? -- Pete, 09:25:49 11/29/06 Wed (bluecoat.whiteman.af.mil/137.1.212.12)

Any more word on when and where the national meeting Richard Kriesel talked about in an earlier post is going to take place? I am disappointed we are hearing nothing on this board from NMMA leadership good,bad or indifferent. There are many that want to see this organization healthy again but your silence is only fueling the negativity. There have been many good suggestions on here. Let's have some discussion on here from our leaders and membership in a constructive fashion and try to get something done.

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[> Re: National meeting?? -- Gary Bouhl, 11:59:41 11/29/06 Wed (NoHost/63.170.35.88)

Its looking like its just a few of us and a few crickets...otherwise its quiet. Joe normally has something to say....I'm wondering if Pat has silenced him.

I know everyone has the answer but all it will take is a little common sense to make it work. Micro series' are already popping up for '07 so its already looking like to little to late.

Anyone on the NMMA board alive or has everyone resigned?

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[> Re: National meeting?? -- Richard Kreisel, 07:24:40 11/30/06 Thu (mo-69-68-210-36.sta.embarqhsd.net/69.68.210.36)

The meeting will be in March in St. Louis. Loretta is working out the exact time and date with the Motel.

Richard Kreisel
Region 11 Chairman

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[> [> MARCH!?!?!?! -- Gary Bouhl, 09:56:20 11/30/06 Thu (NoHost/63.170.35.88)

I know we are in the midst of the holidays...but wouldn't it make since to do it earlier? That gives you only 2 months to attempt to regain some tracks and promote this sport...this hasn't been accomplished during the last 600 months this organization has been running.

Thank you for writing in...I wasn't sure anyone was still alive on the NMMA board that could/would talk to us.....instead of hiding in the shadows hoping that this solves itself....like our fine president.

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" Seriously -- Gary Bouhl, 15:25:11 11/28/06 Tue (NoHost/63.170.35.88)

More random thoughts:

Pat, perhaps if you put as much effort into deleting messages and actually doing something for this sport for the first time, this organization would be getting some where.

Delete the board, delete the NMMA, delete the voices, delete the ideas, delete the theories, delete the change that you don't want to happen...but remember you chose to run and you got elected....time to do something or give it up.

My link to my website on this site can be removed....I don't want to be affiliated with an organization who runs at the site of any problems and thinks the best way to fix anything is to delete it or ignore it. My site isn't the best in the world but I don't want people to see it on this site.

We've been talking/suggesting...now complaining about the same things we've been talking/suggesting/complaining about for over 2 years and nothing to this point has happened. Why and how is this going to change before you make more ignorant rule changes that are irrelevant to the future of the NMMA.

You had the best audience in the world during the last two years to help make things different...however no one has listened or even shown any desire to make anything different.

We came up with ways to keep this organization going and rules that would help to make it a better organization and so far all we got was this amazing wing rule for the A's and restrictors! How could people honestly sit down and talk about a rule that removes the wing from the front of a car when the sport is in serious decline?!?!?

As the years have passed the "outlaw" tracks have been growing and the NMMA has been shrinking. With a steady decline in the car count over the past 6 years, something should have tipped you off that things needed to change. this is not something new that other major racing series' haven't faced....those that have stood the test of time have adjusted to make sure they were they keep their drivers and fans.

I and everyone else in this organization know that you cannot make everyone happy...however you can make strides to make this better. You have hundreds of GOOD ideas on this forum and it wouldn't take but 30 minutes time to go through them and realize what would work.

Why would someone take on the nominee to become a board member or president of this organization if they had NO DESIRE TO CHANGE THE SPORT?

Have you noticed the web traffic has slowed and that there are alot less people who write on this board asking for a change.....perhaps they don't care anymore and will take their cars, drivers and money elsewhere.

I would hope the president of this organization would take the effort to address the issues in some form or fashion or else take a seat else where and let the people that want this to go some where do it.

to change this organization would make anyone look like the hero they have always wanted to be...to miraculously save a sport and become a feature once again in the racing marketplace. All we need is someone to do it, if they don't want to then let someone else do it.

Here are a few suggestions to change the NMMA for 2007...and you can even take them and call them your own to be the savior of the NMMA.

1. create a rules package for the multi class that would incorporate the "outlaw" microsprints (if they are the biggest thing going then we probably need them!!!)

2. Remove the A-class. If we cannot figure out how to tech them without any bias they why mess with it...I believe it has been a cancerous class to the nmma because it has left everyone with a bad taste.

3. Non wing and restrictors with open motors--again if you can't tech without bias or even know what you are looking for then why mess with it.

4. No more "gray" rules. Make it straight forward and easy to understand....if its supposed to be one way and it isn't then it doesn't pass! NO IFS!!!!!!!

5. MARKETING, MARKETING, MARKETING, MARKETING. There is no reason why we shouldn't be in Sprint Car and Midget or Speed Sport News with racing coverage! We shouldn't even have to pay for it...they should want us! People have run in microsprints and moved up...just look up: Stephanie Mockler, Bryan Clauson, Brady Bacon, Derrick King and probably hundreds of others I have left out. This is a stepping stone...lets promote it. Lets get car owners like Doug Stringer interested in this and help us promote!!! We probably shouldn't piss him off by not answering a question he has in regards to foul mouthed people.

6. Make a point system that is based on car counts and feature finishes. No more heats and consi points...who cares?!?! make it so easy the common fan can figure it out. Also make it so you have to earn it...screw having a nat'l champ that only races against 4 cars every week over a car that runs against 20 every week...thats BS.

7. MARKETING AND PROMOTION!!!!!!! Yes again!!!!!

8. SELL, SELL, SELL. The NMMA is in a very competitive market for drivers we need to sell tracks on the benefit of sanctioning NMMA events (perhaps we should think about the national champion differently...perhaps allow tracks to run both outlaw and nmma sanctioned events). We shouldn't make the tracks have to commit to 20 nmma races per year...let let them run how ever many they want..once drivers see the re-formatted series...more and more should join.

9. MONEY, MONEY, MONEY. This will be a sour point to some..however there is a ton of free money out there...ITS CALLED SPONSORSHIP!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The sponsorship(s) would assist in a point fund or even to pay tracks to let us run sanctioned events at their tracks....or to pay for good help at the tracks. I realize that many people don't want to race for money...however if its free why the hell not? Why should the racers pay for it?

10. Standard compound tires on all 4 corners...make the tires harder than hell...pretty easy to check..if the tire doesn't read what is supposed to then you're out..pretty easy tech.

I keep hearing about how blu mol left the nmma because no one thanked them. I think thats crap. they left because our sport was in the early stages of turning into crap and they bailed. you can't expect over a thousand racers to stop and send a letter and flowers of appreciation..however the thousands of dollars they spent on blu mol products is what its all about. Blu mol also left because we didn't show them the value of sponsorship...every car should have been required to run a blu mol decal on their car for the prize money...just a thought. We also should have a better national event...I'm sure blu mol wasn't impressed by our nationals in the 100 degree heat on a 1 lane rubber track...thats not racing...thats crap.

Just a few ideas...hope this helps...

don't be afraid to tell us when you are going to have an emergency meeting to change this series

Tell us the plans...or start making calls to everyone that started and supported this sport that the NMMA will no longer be running because the board was to hard headed to listen to its members and this one old ex-member.

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[> Re: Seriously -- Jake, 15:31:56 11/28/06 Tue (ws151191.housing-ec.siu.edu/131.230.151.191)

Whatwas one of the major points of marketing Gary, Mutually Beneficial Relationships? I don't think that we have it right now and in my opinion gary's suggestions get you 95% of the way there. Just my opinion

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[> Re: Seriously -- Todd, 17:15:31 11/28/06 Tue (c-68-51-77-231.hsd1.in.comcast.net/68.51.77.231)

I agree with about 90% of the rules you stated, but I do not think all of the classes should just be open rules on engines. The restrictor class is oriented toward new racers and the youth. It is a good class to learn in. I know tech can be difficult, but open motor rules require alot of money to build. We racers are our own worst enemy, we can never have enough motor, we will keep opening up the rules until most of use can no longer afford to compete. Opening the engine rules in the restrictors will probably triple the cost to be competitive.

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[> Re: Seriously -- racer, 08:04:42 11/29/06 Wed (colecamp.k12.mo.us/209.106.181.67)

blu mol left the nmma because of stupid rules and stupid people, his car had passed inspection flawlessly at every single race but that one and not a single thing had changed on his car. his wing didnt go all the way to the center of the tire. Disadvantage rather than an advantage, and just like everyone else they got sick of not being able to figure out why and when the NMMA is going to enforce rules, which seems like its only whenever they feel like it. I dont blame them AT ALL for leaving. smart move on their part. dont look to ever get them back either because its totally obvious that our president is not going to do anything to change and he also will not ever get them back because he does not support at all the class of car that blu mol brings with them, which as a club president is wrong, he should support it at as long as it is bringing in money and fans, in this case blu mol sure donated alot of money but no longer will due to stupid rules that amount to absolutely NOTHING!!!!!!

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" As i have been told, "they look like ostriches" -- Jake, 14:51:48 11/28/06 Tue (ws151191.housing-ec.siu.edu/131.230.151.191)

Due to the threatening deletion of the message board and BigD's compensation for maintaining said board I will no longer continue to post Doc Neal's message but will tell McGrath that it's very sad and unprofessional to not stand up for something you did wrong. Yes, I realize that me reposting the message was childish and that i shouldn't have continued to post. Instead of trying to hide from the problems you were elected to lead us through, FACE THEM. You have been given several suggestions on ways to help improve, constructive critisism as Carol called it has been distributed throughout posts on this board, yet as i look back and try to find some of them, SUPRISE, they have been deleted. Just follow some others advice from time to time and don't run from critisism, confront it, don't turn don't suggestions, improve on them......if you delete this board, you may lose some bickering but you're going to lose your numero uno source of suggestions......good day McGrath.....

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[> Re: As i have been told, "they look like ostriches" -- Danny, 21:37:15 11/28/06 Tue (ip70-185-153-228.lu.dl.cox.net/70.185.153.228)

For those that haven't seen this post it was posted on MicroOutlaws message board on Nov.26th @3:41 pm and is under the topic (yikes). It won't be deleated there.

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" NMMA'S BIGGEST PROBLEM -- BRODY STEWART, 17:08:29 11/28/06 Tue (dpc67142130031.direcpc.com/67.142.130.31)

YOU NEED A RULE PAGE NOT A RULE BOOK!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I WILL NOT BE A NMMA MEMBER AGAIN, UNTIL THE RULE BOOK IS GONE!!!!!!!!!!!!! NOT THAT YOU CARE, I JUST WANTED YOU TO KNOW. (I'M SURE I'M NOT THE ONLY ONE)

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[> Re: NMMA'S BIGGEST PROBLEM -- Andy Brink (?), 19:19:39 11/28/06 Tue (NoHost/12.206.94.197)

I was going to join the nmma this coming year because nationals is a 3 hour drive.But why should I? They have too big of a rule book (that takes a lawyer to comprehend it) with no intesion of making everyone follow it. You have a really good example of this with doc neils post but instead of coming on the message board and defending what you did. You just keep deleting the post. All the non nmma tracks I have been to have a 1 page of rules (that even i can understand) and they inforce them. It seems to me the 1 rule you broke makes this not a family sport. Last year we tryed to make our local track an nmma sanctioned track. Now I glad it did not go nmma. So why should I join.

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" Number of NMMA tracks -- charles w neal (Doc Chuck), 06:09:14 11/28/06 Tue (161-72.wireless.mvn.net/66.232.161.72)

What is the minimum number of sanctioned tracks the NMMA is comfortable with to remain using the term "National"?

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[> Re: Number of NMMA tracks -- Andy Brink, 06:51:12 11/28/06 Tue (NoHost/12.206.94.197)

>What is the minimum number of sanctioned tracks the
>NMMA is comfortable with to remain using the term
>"National"?
This must be a really small number.

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[> Shouldn't it be BSMMA or TSMMA -- Rick, 19:02:25 11/28/06 Tue (pool-71-124-53-118.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net/71.124.53.118)

Not being disrespectable, should it be called BSMMA (Bi-state Modified Midget Ass.) or TSMMA (TRI-State Modified Midget Ass.) Just kidding, It is such a shame that NMMA has droped to where they are.

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" complaing "national members" -- Carol McGrath, 09:24:06 11/28/06 Tue (r162h168.dixie-net.com/64.89.162.168)

Just a note to question the people who want to constantly complain.None of you seem to have read any part of our rule book or if you have you dont care about it, only yourselfs. Some of us have been in this organization for a long time and care what happens to it. We certainly need to make changes and try to modernize where the majority feel it is necessary, but we cant always satisify every members individual desires. What i am asking of all of you is that you ALL try to come up with things that would be helpful to ALL members and the organization as a whole, not just yourself.We cant fix anything when all we get are complaints and nothing constructive to go with it. Where have some of you long time members been, try talkiing to newer members to let them know that you care about this organization and its future. Just going on this board and complaining isnt what will fix anything.Please start trying to help, in your local club, your region and by doing this you will be helping all, and the organization.

Thanks for listening
Carol McGrath

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[> Re: complaing "national members" -- Jake, 10:26:12 11/28/06 Tue (ws151191.housing-ec.siu.edu/131.230.151.191)

You know Carol, not to be disrespectful but if our leaders and officials would FOLLOW the rule book as much as they say they do, the org. wouldn't have near as many problems as it does.

Jake Palmisano

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[> Re: complaing "national members" -- Rusti, 10:51:56 11/28/06 Tue (dialup-4.159.56.67.Dial1.Chicago1.Level3.net/4.159.56.67)

>Just a note to question the people who want to
>constantly complain.None of you seem to have read any
>part of our rule book or if you have you dont care
>about it, only yourselfs. Some of us have been in this
>organization for a long time and care what happens to
>it. We certainly need to make changes and try to
>modernize where the majority feel it is necessary, but
>we cant always satisify every members individual
>desires. What i am asking of all of you is that you
>ALL try to come up with things that would be helpful
>to ALL members and the organization as a whole, not
>just yourself.We cant fix anything when all we get are
>complaints and nothing constructive to go with it.
>Where have some of you long time members been, try
>talkiing to newer members to let them know that you
>care about this organization and its future. Just
>going on this board and complaining isnt what will fix
>anything.Please start trying to help, in your local
>club, your region and by doing this you will be
>helping all, and the organization.
>
>Thanks for listening
>Carol McGrath

This is just a bystander's opinion here, but the only complaining I see is coming from the higher ups. There are suggestions, constructive critisim and reports of just were and how things went wrong.

But instead of learning from the mistakes, you choose to delete the posts, and the suggestions and critiques seem to be more or less ignored, or at least un-replied to. Local clubs/chapters can only do so much under the umbrella of an organization.

Crying that everyone is just complaining and not doing will only get you giggled at. Suggestions have been made, act on them.

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[> Re: complaing "national members" -- troy, 11:33:43 11/28/06 Tue (adsl-70-143-52-209.dsl.tul2ok.sbcglobal.net/70.143.52.209)

>i find it funny that you say majority. i sat in the grandstands with my son at a nmma meeting. this meeting was at portcity befor they went outlaw. many times votes were made counted in public view and were over turned because some one did not like it. i saw this with my own eyes so the idea of majority dose not fly. now dictatorship yes! and the majority dose not like it. THAT IS THE PROBLEM.

TROY

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[> Where have you been -- Gary Bouhl, 15:12:55 11/28/06 Tue (NoHost/63.170.35.88)

More random thoughts:

We've been talking/suggesting...now complaining about the same things we've been talking/suggesting/complaining about for over 2 years and nothing to this point has happened. Why and how is this going to change before you make more ignorant rule changes that are irrelevant to the future of the NMMA.

You had the best audience in the world during the last two years to help make things different...however no one has listened or even shown any desire to make anything different.

We came up with ways to keep this organization going and rules that would help to make it a better organization and so far all we got was this amazing wing rule for the A's and restrictors! How could people honestly sit down and talk about a rule that removes the wing from the front of a car when the sport is in serious decline?!?!?

As the years have passed the "outlaw" tracks have been growing and the NMMA has been shrinking. With a steady decline in the car count over the past 6 years, something should have tipped you off that things needed to change. this is not something new that other major racing series' haven't faced....those that have stood the test of time have adjusted to make sure they were they keep their drivers and fans.

I and everyone else in this organization know that you cannot make everyone happy...however you can make strides to make this better. You have hundreds of GOOD ideas on this forum and it wouldn't take but 30 minutes time to go through them and realize what would work.

Why would someone take on the nominee to become a board member or president of this organization if they had NO DESIRE TO CHANGE THE SPORT?

I would hope the president of this organization would take the effort to address the issues in some form or fashion or else take a seat else where and let the people that want this to go some where do it.

to change this organization would make anyone look like the hero they have always wanted to be...to miraculously save a sport and become a feature once again in the racing marketplace. All we need is someone to do it, if they don't want to then let someone else do it.

Here are a few suggestions to change the NMMA for 2007...and you can even take them and call them your own to be the savior of the NMMA.

1. create a rules package for the multi class that would incorporate the "outlaw" microsprints (if they are the biggest thing going then we probably need them!!!)

2. Remove the A-class. If we cannot figure out how to tech them without any bias they why mess with it...I believe it has been a cancerous class to the nmma because it has left everyone with a bad taste.

3. Non wing and restrictors with open motors--again if you can't tech without bias or even know what you are looking for then why mess with it.

4. No more "gray" rules. Make it straight forward and easy to understand....if its supposed to be one way and it isn't then it doesn't pass! NO IFS!!!!!!!

5. MARKETING, MARKETING, MARKETING, MARKETING. There is no reason why we shouldn't be in Sprint Car and Midget or Speed Sport News with racing coverage! We shouldn't even have to pay for it...they should want us! People have run in microsprints and moved up...just look up: Stephanie Mockler, Bryan Clauson, Brady Bacon, Derrick King and probably hundreds of others I have left out. This is a stepping stone...lets promote it. Lets get car owners like Doug Stringer interested in this and help us promote!!! We probably shouldn't piss him off by not answering a question he has in regards to foul mouthed people.

6. Make a point system that is based on car counts and feature finishes. No more heats and consi points...who cares?!?! make it so easy the common fan can figure it out. Also make it so you have to earn it...screw having a nat'l champ that only races against 4 cars every week over a car that runs against 20 every week...thats BS.

7. MARKETING AND PROMOTION!!!!!!! Yes again!!!!!

8. SELL, SELL, SELL. The NMMA is in a very competitive market for drivers we need to sell tracks on the benefit of sanctioning NMMA events (perhaps we should think about the national champion differently...perhaps allow tracks to run both outlaw and nmma sanctioned events). We shouldn't make the tracks have to commit to 20 nmma races per year...let let them run how ever many they want..once drivers see the re-formatted series...more and more should join.

9. MONEY, MONEY, MONEY. This will be a sour point to some..however there is a ton of free money out there...ITS CALLED SPONSORSHIP!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The sponsorship(s) would assist in a point fund or even to pay tracks to let us run sanctioned events at their tracks....or to pay for good help at the tracks. I realize that many people don't want to race for money...however if its free why the hell not? Why should the racers pay for it?

10. Standard compound tires on all 4 corners...make the tires harder than hell...pretty easy to check..if the tire doesn't read what is supposed to then you're out..pretty easy tech.

I keep hearing about how blu mol left the nmma because no one thanked them. I think thats crap. they left because our sport was in the early stages of turning into crap and they bailed. you can't expect over a thousand racers to stop and send a letter and flowers of appreciation..however the thousands of dollars they spent on blu mol products is what its all about. Blu mol also left because we didn't show them the value of sponsorship...every car should have been required to run a blu mol decal on their car for the prize money...just a thought. We also should have a better national event...I'm sure blu mol wasn't impressed by our nationals in the 100 degree heat on a 1 lane rubber track...thats not racing...thats crap.

Just a few ideas...hope this helps...

don't be afraid to tell us when you are going to have an emergency meeting to change this series

Tell us the plans...or start making calls to everyone that started and supported this sport that the NMMA will no longer be running because the board was to hard headed to listen to its members and this one old ex-member.

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[> Re: complaing "national members" -- DAVE ROBINSON, 18:12:47 11/28/06 Tue (DHCP-74-134-107-193.insightbb.com/74.134.107.193)

Mrs. Mcgrath this is by no way to disrespect you,But the messages were for Pat to read and respond to, this he has never done, for some of us it seems he don't care what is happening to the NMMA. David Robinson

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Post Deleted -- Webmasters Office, 14:21:06 11/28/06 Tue (12-207-154-145.client.mchsi.com/12.207.154.145)

This office only deletes post that this office is told to. Bigd is only the Web Master, the NMMA president and board make all calls.

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