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Subject: FINAL 5 SCORING


Author:
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Date Posted: 11:45:20 01/15/24 Mon

Good morning everyone!

Full post coming later this afternoon, but I wanted to ask or note:

The scoring was explained that each competition would be scored 25 percent to make a top 5. However, it was never explained if the final 5 was scored via ranking, ballot, or total points scored? Did anyone hear that, or was it never explained? It really was never a big explanation on final night at previous Miss Americas, but this year I really do not think that it was explained.

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Replies:
[> Subject: It was a final 5 ballot


Author:
No name
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Date Posted: 12:52:18 01/15/24 Mon

>Good morning everyone!
>
>Full post coming later this afternoon, but I wanted to
>ask or note:
>
>The scoring was explained that each competition would
>be scored 25 percent to make a top 5. However, it was
>never explained if the final 5 was scored via ranking,
>ballot, or total points scored? Did anyone hear that,
>or was it never explained? It really was never a big
>explanation on final night at previous Miss Americas,
>but this year I really do not think that it was
>explained.
[> [> Subject: Re: It was a final 5 ballot


Author:
No name
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Date Posted: 12:52:39 01/15/24 Mon

>>Good morning everyone!
>>
>>Full post coming later this afternoon, but I wanted to
>>ask or note:
>>
>>The scoring was explained that each competition would
>>be scored 25 percent to make a top 5. However, it was
>>never explained if the final 5 was scored via ranking,
>>ballot, or total points scored? Did anyone hear that,
>>or was it never explained? It really was never a big
>>explanation on final night at previous Miss Americas,
>>but this year I really do not think that it was
>>explained.
[> [> Subject: Thank you! I thought perhaps it was, and I think it is interesting this year in particular because I think it could have legitimately gone to any of the top 3 this year. It is not always like that, but this year I think it was.


Author:
Owner/Moderator
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Date Posted: 13:37:00 01/15/24 Mon

>>Good morning everyone!
>>
>>Full post coming later this afternoon, but I wanted to
>>ask or note:
>>
>>The scoring was explained that each competition would
>>be scored 25 percent to make a top 5. However, it was
>>never explained if the final 5 was scored via ranking,
>>ballot, or total points scored? Did anyone hear that,
>>or was it never explained? It really was never a big
>>explanation on final night at previous Miss Americas,
>>but this year I really do not think that it was
>>explained.
[> [> Subject: Never been a fan of "vote of the heart"


Author:
No name
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Date Posted: 14:12:58 01/15/24 Mon

[> [> [> Subject: I think overall, it is better to have the winner as the one with the most points at the end of the night. I realize the rationale is that you don't want to get someone who is "not good for the job" but I think ranking is difficult because different judges with different opinions are going to net different results. It is a "job" these days but I think whoever scores the most points already demonstrates that they have qualities that get them noticed. If you can express your charisma without words I think you would be a great Miss America.


Author:
Owner/Moderator
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Date Posted: 14:27:31 01/15/24 Mon

[> [> [> [> Subject: To be 100% clear- they used a final ballot where they write the name based on who they want to win Miss America. It’s not longer based on points then. Correct?


Author:
No Name
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Date Posted: 03:40:58 01/16/24 Tue

[> [> [> [> [> Subject: The history of final ballot (vote of the heart) stems in racism. It was a way to ensure a white girl was picked (this was 50/60 years ago). It was removed for a while and brought back with Gretchen. Each judge ranks the girl in the order they see fit: Miss State X-1st; State L-2nd etc. 1st gets 10 points, 5th gets 1..each girl is totalled and the highest score wins. So it is mathmatically possible for someone to win w/o getting 1st from each judge. This panel had to do final ballot, did they do it this way, or as suggested - just write their winner on a piece of paper,,,who knows


Author:
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Date Posted: 12:08:16 01/16/24 Tue

[> [> [> [> Subject: I personally love ballot because it’s the only time the panel can ACTUALLY take into account the “human factor” - a titleholder has to be someone people are drawn to. I like that final ballot allows judges to look at the girls and go “okay, we know who probably has the highest point total - but do I *like* her?” It’s an important aspect because you can’t rank charisma 1-10, and this year it was especially important since the interview score didn’t carry. I think we got a Miss America this year who embodies what the national titleholder is supposed to be - beautiful, accomplished, intelligent - but in a way that is aspirational, not intimidating. Her resume is STACKED but rather than inferior, I look at her and go - well, if she can, I can too! And my daughters could! Food for thought :)


Author:
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Date Posted: 15:33:31 01/16/24 Tue

[> Subject: It was noted in the broadcast-the 5 are starting at 0 again. Then the had their final question. What the judges use (cumulative opinion, or final answer) no one, but Robin, knows


Author:
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Date Posted: 15:19:29 01/16/24 Tue

[> [> Subject: That was what I was wondering as well. I had not heard one way or the other how they were determining the winner. If I remember years past I do not think they announced if they did the ballot. If anyone remembers could you please let us know?


Author:
Owner/Moderator
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Date Posted: 16:15:53 01/16/24 Tue

>>Good morning everyone!
>>
>>Full post coming later this afternoon, but I wanted to
>>ask or note:
>>
>>The scoring was explained that each competition would
>>be scored 25 percent to make a top 5. However, it was
>>never explained if the final 5 was scored via ranking,
>>ballot, or total points scored? Did anyone hear that,
>>or was it never explained? It really was never a big
>>explanation on final night at previous Miss Americas,
>>but this year I really do not think that it was
>>explained.
[> Subject: Thanks for all of your opinions! I know some people are a supporter of it and some are not. I still personally prefer the idea of the most points winning. It used to be anyway that judges were told they were not scoring competitions; they were looking for Miss America. Even if they were a 6 in talent they were told to score it a 10. So, it does get a bit murky and hopefully the judges understand how to score. The big drawback, IMO, is when judges are told to lowball the one they think is the biggest competition to their first choice. So, it could cause a quality contestant to tank and lose scholarship or possibly even win if others were not in consensus on who the first choice was. I want to say that most points were in place in 2004 but I cannot remember exactly. I think the ballot came back maybe within the last 15 years?


Author:
Owner/Moderator
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Date Posted: 16:14:18 01/16/24 Tue

>Good morning everyone!
>
>Full post coming later this afternoon, but I wanted to
>ask or note:
>
>The scoring was explained that each competition would
>be scored 25 percent to make a top 5. However, it was
>never explained if the final 5 was scored via ranking,
>ballot, or total points scored? Did anyone hear that,
>or was it never explained? It really was never a big
>explanation on final night at previous Miss Americas,
>but this year I really do not think that it was
>explained.
[> [> Subject: Ballot came back in 2019 .. I had a daughter compete in both years..2018 was pure score, 2019 (year 1 of 2.0) was final ballot


Author:
No name
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Date Posted: 17:44:35 01/16/24 Tue

[> [> [> Subject: Thanks! Since you were able to experience both, did you observe that there were any differences?


Author:
Owner/Moderator
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Date Posted: 17:55:51 01/16/24 Tue

[> [> [> [> Subject: Unfortunately, not without sounding like a bitter mom. 😱 It just seems easier to guess who will win & who will be 4th runner up when there is final ballot vs pure score. Which goes along with an earlier point - the origin of vote of the heart - yeah she is talented, beautiful, fit, well spoken — but do we really want a (fat; petite; black; queer; amazon; blue haired) insert bias, as our Miss State?


Author:
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Date Posted: 19:16:24 01/16/24 Tue

[> [> [> [> [> Subject: If you're a mom, you're human. :) I get it, if I had a daughter competing I would want the best for her. I have the same concerns as you, I fear that judges have either implicit or explicit bias. I know that many judges have integrity but many biases we are not even conscious of. I wouldn't want to be responsible for unfairly ending someone's dream. That is the problem with a final ballot. I know you can do it other ways by awarding points to those you like but if you have it in for a certain contestant it is easier to completely tank them.


Author:
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Date Posted: 22:00:41 01/18/24 Thu

[> Subject: Look- final ballot is crucial, especially in certain states because some girls who are very “problematic”, mean, or undeserving to say the least. Also, just because you are fantastic in talent or OSQ doesn’t mean you’ll be fantastic at being a titleholder


Author:
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Date Posted: 04:59:53 01/17/24 Wed

[> [> Subject: How would the judges know if the girl was mean or problematic? Oh yeah, the state director tells the panel who he/she wants....


Author:
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Date Posted: 12:33:37 01/17/24 Wed

[> [> [> Subject: Possibly, which is wrong to do and unfair. But- at the same time, I’m sure some judges can see past the pageant patty and do their research on their social media, etc. to see if they walk the walk to their “talk the talk”


Author:
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Date Posted: 20:03:32 01/17/24 Wed

[> [> [> [> Subject: Then that should be addressed in scoring - not give the girl 10s across the board, then say "Oops, nevermind - you did not post on Flag Day, so you are 4th runner up." 🙄


Author:
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Date Posted: 20:47:04 01/17/24 Wed

[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Flag day is really reaching. I’m talking about drinking, underage drinking, parties, inappropriate online behavior (yes they don’t have common sense to take it down) you knew exactly what I meant. Flag day is an exaggeration. You like it to be based on points. I like final ballot. We can agree to disagree and move on.


Author:
No Name
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Date Posted: 03:44:44 01/18/24 Thu

[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: No, we actually agree, We both are saying final ballot will always be to keep "undesirables" out.


Author:
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Date Posted: 09:18:31 01/18/24 Thu

[> [> Subject: This is a great discussion. I like good, healthy discussions like this. More inside from me.


Author:
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Date Posted: 19:02:10 01/18/24 Thu

This is a complex issue because there are nightmare titleholders. Of course, you cannot base pure facts on hearsay on a message board, but I will use Ericka Dunlap as an example. It was said that the FL board felt that she was a problem and was likely going to be addressed (either that she was going to be asked to resign or they would remove her from duties) but she won Miss America. According to the book Boardwalk in Disrepair by Ami Feller-Otto, the leadership at the time felt that Ericka was very difficult to work with. The one thing that the A&E documentary addressed is that many titleholders are accused of being difficult, etc. and there are a lot of problems with the job of being Miss America. I saw how Ericka treated her now ex-husband on the Amazing Race, so I believe there is merit. But here's the problem at the national level-judges would have not known any of this. They like what they see onstage. Do you remember back in 2001 and 2002 when the contestants were given a chance to vote on who they thought would make the best Miss America? They see behavior throughout the week. It was well reported that Tara Holland was not well-liked by her fellow contestants. I had always wondered why she did not appear in the production number before the end of the show that night. The story was that she claimed to have been injured. So, we can kind of see from the outside looking in that titleholders are difficult, but the final night judges at MAO probably do not have enough time or insight to be able to determine who is going to be great to work with or a nightmare to work with.

I am sure at the state level that there is a lot more room, as it were, for executive directors to steer the judges to the contestant of their choice. However, as one of the posters mentioned above, if they are actively engaging in rigging the pageant for or against a particular contestant it could go seriously with them. They could face everything up to and including legal repercussions. Do I believe that some EDs pick their friends and in a roundabout way tell them who they want? Absolutely. They may explicitly tell them as well. From everything I know from the outside, my state has generally had good titleholders who were kind, nice, and easy to work with. I never thought that there might be one which was tanked with the ballot.

As far as judges looking at social media-that is interesting to me because how do we define who is good or toxic based on their posts? Social media is essentially designed for everyone to put out the best image of themselves. A few years ago social media was part of the scoring or at least part of the competition. Where I think it can be telling is reading personal accounts, whether that person might hold potentially beliefs or make statements which would bring controversy. There was the Miss Teen USA, for example, who made racially derogatory statements and it came out in the press. Perhaps if the judges knew that they would have used better discretion.

I guess this is a complex issue because of these issues. It is hard to really know any contestant except for reputation and the way they conduct themselves during pageant week. I am not sure that final balloting would help at the national level or not. I would imagine it affects states if this is an issue with a potential titleholder. Most local titleholders unless they are in a high-profile area barely have any responsibilities, so I do not think there is a great investment in that.

My concern is that a contestant could still be unfairly tanked. You are essentially playing god with contestants. I realize that is what you sign up for, but you also need to know that there can be times where someone very deserving might be shut out of a title or given less scholarship because of perceptions/biases/unfounded reputations.
[> Subject: I would be fine with removing final ballot if the scoring *actually* reflected the skills needed to be a good titleholder. Realistically, the job is 70% interview and 30% everything else. I think the scoring as is allows for the most well-rounded girls to rise to the top in the competition, and final ballot allows the best fit for the actual job to be selected.


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Date Posted: 18:43:36 01/18/24 Thu


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