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49ers Paradise Forum


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49ers Paradise depends on every visitor to make it the best 49ers community online.  We invite you to join in, share your comments thoughts and lives in the 49ers Paradise Forum.

 

Welcome to the best place on the net to talk 49ers football! The 49ers Paradise Forum offers a unique experience to users - allowing conversations about football, and the 49ers without the name calling and insults that have populated most of the forums out there. I'd like to invite everyone to add their thoughts to the forum. All you need is a valid e-mail address.

Please enjoy the short articles posted below, they should help spark some interesting conversations.

What A Game
The 49ers played a crazy game this past Sunday and it may take all week before us fans can really let the adrenaline slip. But in the mean time it makes for great conversation. This week we’ll be talking about the greatest comeback in 49ers playoffs history, and of course we’ll be looking forward to the big showdown against the Bucs. Come on by the 49ers Paradise Forum and have your say!

Remember the aforementioned topic is only suggestion, please feel free to talk about everything and anything 49ers. 


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Subject: Found some tape!


Author:
2winspapa
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 00:23:43 01/08/03 Wed

I found someone who taped the game. I need a count of who wants one and I'll get a price. I don't think that it's too much...15-20 bucks tops, maybe.

The bucs fans have niner envy. It's pretty funny that they show up here to try to bug us. What a hoot! Oh wait, we have 5 World Championships to their how many?

We need to turn the players loose and go after them on all quarters....forget conservative! This is a HUGE game!

Subject: 9ers


Author:
Bryan - Admin
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 00:41:27 01/08/03 Wed


Allen - just a heads up... we don't get personal in this forum. We don't mind debate but be sure if it arises that you stick to football.

TONY - PLEASE DON"T TYPE IN ALL CAPS
Was there a healthy member of the secondary last week? Has there been a week since week 4 this season where we have had a complete secondary?

JJ - Rumph played better, which isn't to say he played good... just better.

fearyaks - the TD he gave up had no effort. THere were several replays of Rumphs feet nailed to the ground. Also there was no need to exploit Rumph the way Plummer was playing.

Cory- Winborn is out for the season. Webster is hoping to play.

Jim - I agree.

core - unpredictable eh... why didn't I think of that?
:)

Tank - fair argument.

ROy - I hope you are right about the confidence.



Subject: 9r4life


Author:
9r4life
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 00:43:56 01/08/03 Wed

Go to NFL.com and check out the Bucs website. They have some good articles. Did you all see that we are working out Terry Killins? He is supposed to be brought in for special teams.

What is the status on Winborn and Webster?

9r4life

Subject: Help Me To Understand?


Author:
Prophet
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 00:50:19 01/08/03 Wed

Someone please help me with this one?

We all know Being a cornerback is the hardest position to play in the NFL. Am I right. So why are you(this includes everyone in this forum who cricized Rumph's play)so hard on this young man. He needs seasoning, if I can recall he showed more in his 1st year than Plummer or Webster combined, maybe I am seeing something you are not.

Also I recall last year everyone was hollering for them to pick Lito Sheppard, have you seen or heard of him this year, NOOOOOO!!!!. The EAGLES 2nd RD. corner comes of the bench before him, so what those that say to you.

I haven't seen the 9ers scouts make to many mistakes in the draft. Except for maybe 2 or 3 bad picks since they started this rebuilding. So please give the man a chance. I see big things for him, hell he grew up some in 1 week. He showed aggresiveness, and confidence. Something Webster hasn't shown all year. Next year I wouldnt be suprise if he beats Webster for the starting position. And you can quote me on that.

Subject: Game


Author:
Julie B.
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 01:09:58 01/08/03 Wed

Awesome game I went to on Sunday!!

My ears are still ringing from the crowd noise. No one was sitting in the 4th quarter.

Forget the voice, that may take a few more days for full recovery!!

Someone (TIM or tim I think, can't remember!) had asked me a question a few days ago, unfortunately, I can't remember what the question was!! (Something about a post of mine?) Sorry! (Hey, I'm old AND blonde, what can I say!!) ;)

Subject: niners rule


Author:
yee9erz
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 01:13:57 01/08/03 Wed

I havent been this excited watching a football in my entire life. As the 49ers of yore used to say.."the better team will find thier way to win"

in this case the 49ers were a better team. Every critism i had of our defense was turned around in less than one of half of football..

my real comment is that about the last play. I think the simple rule of.. "a game can not end on off setting penalties" is stupid! if chike okeafor didnt pull that guy down the damn play wouldnt have resulted in anything. And even if he did the NFL rules cant be blind and must acknowledge that the game shoulda been done the second there was an illegible man downfield! I hate how some people have put a * by the niners win. Niners flat out deserved to win that game. They played like they wanted it more.

Subject: ooh! me!


Author:
TrevortheGreat of Trevor's Corner
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 01:19:52 01/08/03 Wed

2winspapa-

I'd be interested in a copy of the tape, but twenty bucks? Crap.

Subject: Niners' biggest weakness?


Author:
Norcal
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 02:24:57 01/08/03 Wed

The difference between the season we just saw and maybe winning home field advantage next year? A consistent pass rush! This is something I have been griping about for years. It's worse than it was last year.

Do the Niners need another receiving threat to compliment T.O.? sure. Do they need a cover corner and to move Webster to nickle? sure. But those things pale in comparison to the lack of ANY pressure on opposing QBs the second half of this season. Besides Carter, the front 4 are fair to poor.
Stubby is done. He is overweight and looks like he can't get his breath in the 4th quarter. Tailbacks are running right past him. B.Y. has clearly lost a step. A great warrior over the years, but he gets no inside push and no teams are afraid of him anymore. Chike is a missing person against any halfway decent offensive line. E-berg is a solid backup...no more than that.

All secondary problems aside, any DBs will get burned if the opposing QBs are allowed to sit back and comfortably pick their targets. Hell, our lack of a pass rush even made Washington and Seattle look good this year. Kerry Collins looked like Dan Marino out there. This has got to be the number one thing to fix in the off season.

Subject: No way.


Author:
TrevortheGreat of Trevor's Corner
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 03:12:26 01/08/03 Wed

Norcal-

Sorry boy, yer wrong.

The 49ers' defensive scheme is not the same as it was in the past. From '94-'99, the scheme told defensive linemen to rush the passer. Get him at all costs. Linebackers stayed back in coverage and made plays, and the scheme worked, to a point. In '97, a largely veteran 49ers' defense was 1st in the NFL in yards allowed.

But times, they have a-changed. And though both Bryant Young and Dana Stubblefield have indeed lost steps, their conditioning is good as ever. The reason you don't see them getting inside push is because the scheme has changed. Now, rather than defensive linemen penetrating, getting upfield, and making plays, the tackles stay back and tie up blockers so that the linebackers can make plays. There are very very quiet rumblings that BY and Stubby wouldn't have it this way in a perfect world, but they're professionals. They sacrifice statistics for the good of the team and hey, Young still made the Pro Bowl for his performance this year.

I agree Okeafor is no world-beater, but Carter has at times been magnificent this year (in fact, were it not for a midseason slump, he'd probably be a Pro Bowler right now), and Peterson is still involved in the pass rush, though more selectively.

In the end, what you perceive to be a lack of talent and conditioning is really a function of scheme. If Young and Stubblefield were to rush the passer every down and shurk other responsibilities, it would probably free up Carter and Okeafor for other opportunities, but I believe the rest of the defense would suffer, because the pair's slightly diminished physical abilities would stop them from getting the kind of consistent production they would both demand of themselves.

I think a big, dominant DT should be high on the 49ers' wish list this offseason, because I do agree, Stubblefield isnt earning his too-high salary. One huge lineman would free the other three members of the line up for passrush opportunities.

Subject: Trev and Bob


Author:
2winspapa
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 04:37:31 01/08/03 Wed

Bob- tried to email you about the tape but you're email box is full so it got kicked back. Drop me a line after you free up that hotmail box.

Trev-

I agree, they're playing the way the scheme is designed but man we have GOT to get a pass rush. I liked the way they used Peterson to put pressure on the QB at times against NYG. The reason we suck at 3rd down and get picked apart by Drew Brees?? (choke) is because we don't put enough pressure on the passer. We do need to get younger too. Young had a Pro Bowl year but he won't be around much longer and it would be beneficial to still have him around for his leadership and experience and so he can help train a successor.

Subject: 9ers


Author:
Bryan - Admin
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 09:35:25 01/08/03 Wed


9r4life - Webster is questionable. Winborn is out for the season.

Prophet - I think people are dissapointed because even in their first years Plummer and Webster performed better than Rumph.

Julie - Great to hear from you...

yee- I agree. I understand why it can't end on a defensive penalty, but an off-setting penalty should end a game.

TVG- someone else in here.. was also talking about game tapes.


Norcal - what about an OT?

TVG - I hope Shaw can fill that role.



Subject: 2wins about tape!


Author:
49ertothecore
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 09:48:09 01/08/03 Wed

2winspapa - I would be interested in getting a copy of the game against the Giants last week. Let me know the specifics. I also tried to e-mail without success.

Thanks,

49ertothecore

Subject: BY and the next DT


Author:
Ghettup
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 10:12:33 01/08/03 Wed

"Young had a Pro Bowl year but he won't be around much longer and it would be beneficial to still have him around for his leadership and experience and so he can help train a successor."

Apparently a DT is on the top of Walsh's 'To Draft' list.

I'd love to see them draft Jimmy Kennedy. This 6-foot-5, 316-pound beast out of penn state is an absolute defensive anchor but also rushes the pass well. Madden would probably say something dumb like hes a 'blocker-eater-upper'. I won't but you get the idea =)

However, the more games the boys keep winning makes getting this guy more and more unlikely, even though it looks like seattle or minnesota will snatch him up.

Subject: Bryan-Adminstrator


Author:
Allen
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 10:29:09 01/08/03 Wed

Bryan,

I want you to go back to any of my messages in this forum and find 1 statement that I made that was a personal statement??? I did say that 1 person in this forum was only ego driven, that's a football statement friend. They put you in charge of this forum?? You're just insulted by the facts. Truth hurts, doesn't it Bryan? You couldn't hang with me in any football forum dude!

Subject: Something of interest


Author:
Audrey Cunning
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 12:27:49 01/08/03 Wed

Thought you 49er fans might be interested in an article by Marcos Breton in today's Sacramento Bee. You can pick it up by going to the Sacramento Bee, then sports, then Marcos Breton. He does raise some very good points on the Walsh era versus now. Just thought you might get another perspective on out team.

Subject: The Bucs know they will lose!


Author:
TIM
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 14:07:45 01/08/03 Wed

Tampa knows they can't win because they have a monster truck show planned for their stadium the day before the NFC championship game and if they beat the Niners and Atlanta wins against Philly then the NFC championship game would have to be at Tampa 24 hours after their field was completely torn up by MONSTER trucks. So obviously they don't plan to play that week because they know they will be eliminated this week by our Niners!!! TIM

Subject: Cory


Author:
TIM
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 14:13:19 01/08/03 Wed

Cory: Winborn is out for the year,he was put on the injured reserve list last week. Webster is 50-50(I think). TIM

Subject: 9ers


Author:
Bryan - Admin
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 15:01:10 01/08/03 Wed

Ghettup - that's a mammoth of a DT!

Allen - Thanks bud... you took just a quick 'heads up' not a warning or anything into personally attacking me. Believe me, I'd woop your but in a discussion about football, you however will never have the chance to find out though, as you have been banned for insulting me.. bright move.

Audrey - I should have it in the HOP to ... no?

TIM - I like your thinking!



Subject: One more for the list


Author:
TIM
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 15:12:30 01/08/03 Wed

PS: In addition to my earlier list on NON calls by the refs last Sun. On the interception by Plummer with about 30 seconds left the wide receiver that he grabed the ball from had BOTH of his hands on Plummers facemask all the way to the ground,NO CALL by the refs? 15 yard penalty with about 15-20 seconds left in the game,They probably NEVER get into FG range after that penalty was called.If the league office and commisioner were based in SF instead of NY and we had lost the game maybe the league office would have apoligized to the Niners the next day but instead of one play that they messed up they could have found at least 5 plays that they blew that would have changed the outcome of the game in favor of the Niners(no question about needing to actually make a field goal to take advantage of the call) By the way we DID win! The Giants front office and head coach have actually shown class throughout the barrage of nonesense that is coming from the NY based league office and the Comissioner and of course the NY media.TIM

Subject: TIM, Offensive Strategy


Author:
TANK
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 16:33:29 01/08/03 Wed

TIM: It apprears that you and I were listening to KNBR when Ted was interviewing Tony. He mentioned the Monster Truck even. Was that you who called in to discuss the receivers' two hands on Plummer's face mask, or are you just repeating what you heard a caller say?

There seems to be a lot of discussion by Niners fans and sports radio talk show hosts about the Niners abandoning their conservative, balanced gameplan and opting to open things up with the no-huddle offense, letting Garcia roll out or even run like he did against the Giants and Raiders.

I just have to ask, are you the same fans that wanted to see Mariucci run a more "Walsh-like offense," and argued that Mariucci version of the WCO was screwed up? Because I see a huge inconsistancy between wanting Mariucci to run the Walsh WCO and now clamoring for the no-huddle, scramble happy offense.

Refer to Ira Miller's column on Chad Pennington being compared to Joe Montana today. It really opened my eyes and gave me a greater understanding about the WCO. Here is the pertinent stuff:

"This may surprise some of you. But if you want to know what's behind the West Coast offense, think feet, not arm. Bill Walsh has said it, and Pennington understands it: The basic concept behind this offense begins with the quarterback's footwork, which is why Walsh always used to spend so much time coaching that. The feet lead. The arm follows.

The West Coast offense, in its purest form, is a timing offense...the quarterback must take the right number of steps and end up in the right spot to throw the ball where it is supposed to go on time.

Steve Young used to say that he could tell how he was throwing the ball just by watching tape from the waist down.

When the quarterback's footwork is right, the offense is a thing of beauty. When its not, WHEN THE QUARTERBACK BEGINS RUNNING AROUND, WHEN HE DOESN'T SET HIS FEET, WHEN HE DOESN'T THROW ON TIME, WELL, ALL HELL BREAKS LOOSE..."

As I read this, I began to understand why the 49ers offense has been so inconsistant this year. When Garcia steps around in the pocket looking for a passing lane, it disrupts the timing. When he rolls out, it thwarts the timing and he is forced to improvise. It explains why Mariucci and Knapp are so reluctant to take the reins off Garcia and let him play "Garcia Ball"...because Garcia Ball ins't the WCO. They are incompatible.

My conclusion? Mooch and Knapp are not the right fit for Garcia. Maybe the time is right for Mariucci and Knapp to move on...not because they mutilated the WCO...but because the 49ers' franchise quarterback needs a coach that will create a gameplan around Garcia strengths...not footwork and pocket passing.

For those of you whose only memory of Joe Montana is him rolling out to hit Dwight Clark on The Catch, you need to be reminded that Montana succeeded in the pocket. He drilled the timing crucial out routes. His comfort in the pocket was sweet serenity. Yes, he rolled out, but not as a rule...only to give pause to a pass rush that was teeing off on his line. The roll out was relied on more later in Montana's career when he was trying to protect his sore ribs.

Are all you "no-huddle, Garcia Ball" fans suggesting it is time for the organization to move on from the WCO and adopt a less structured offense?

An interesting thought raised by a columnist...at the end of the first half, he thought that, based on Garcia's entire season, Cade McNown would be allowed to battle Garcia for the starting QB spot next summer. BUT, because of the dramatic comeback in this ONE game, Garcia's starting job is safe and McNown will only be competing with Tim Rattay for the backup spot. He noted that Mariucci won't be so lucky.

Subject: TANK - whatever works!


Author:
49ertothecore
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 16:44:42 01/08/03 Wed

TANK - seeing that Garcia is our starting QB now and probably at least a couple of years, then we need to play according to our/his stregnths, not coaching preferences. If Mooch & Knapp can't recognize that and/or make adjustments to accomodate Garcia then maybe it's time to find someone who can? We didn't win Sunday because of Mooch's/Knapp's coaching abilities but because the players were allowed to do what they do best and execute successfully.

Subject: Bryan - good point!


Author:
49ertothecore
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 16:49:52 01/08/03 Wed

Good point about the last play and pass interference not being called. It sound like it shouldn't have been called anyway because the ball would've been uncatchable for the OL Okeafor interfered with. Was it pretty clear to you that there is no way he could've caught it, especially since OL are not known for their nimble hands and dynamic diving catches. Lets hope we can ride this momentum/confidence wave all the way!

Subject: I love history


Author:
Uncle Kevin
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 17:03:30 01/08/03 Wed

The No Huddle Offense vs. WCO

Or as their respective teams and coaches called them:

The 49er Offensive System vs. The Bengals Sugar Huddle (created by Sam Wyche) or the Bills K-Gun Offense (which Levy ripped off from the Bengals, after the Bengals clobbered the Bills the year before).

The 49ers, using the WCO went to 5 Superbowls. And WON 5 Superbowls.

The Bengals, using the no huddle, went to 1 Superbowl. 0 wins.

The Bills went to 4.

0 wins.

Then again...there's always the run and shoot that was so very very successful.

One additional note though. Those two teams using the No Huddle and getting all the way to the Superbowl didn't just switch to the No Huddle during the playoffs.

That was their offensive system throughout the year.

They were built for it. They practised it from training camp on into the playoffs. It was what they did.

Subject: All Pros


Author:
Uncle Kevin
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 17:10:50 01/08/03 Wed

Quick note, in case anyone (like me) missed it yesterday:

3 Niners were named to the All Pro list.

Owens

Beasley

Peterson

And yes, Virginia. The All Pro list and the Pro Bowl list are two very different lists.

Subject: 49ertothecore


Author:
TANK
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 17:50:35 01/08/03 Wed

Core: That's great! I am not here to argue with you, or anyone who thinks the no-huddle, Garcia Ball gives the 49ers the best chance of success. I just want to establish what kind of coach and system you think should replace Mariucci and Knapp. You think accomodations should be made for Garcia...so when Walsh and Donahue look to name Mariucci's successor, they should probably look outside of the traditional lineage of Walsh's WCO coaches.

It is apparent from your argument that the 49ers need a head coach and offensive coordinator who can facilitate and utilize Garcia's unique abilities/special skills. Obviously, a Gruden or Willingham or Green or Donahue, himself, would not be what Garcia needs. (You may have noticed, coaches usually install THEIR system...they don't try to accomodate their QB...so Notre Dame ran a simplified version of Willingham's WCO, not the option offense that Carlyle Holiday has played since high school). Maybe Garcia needs a young CFL head coach...someone who uses three or four receivers in his base offense.

Yes, Walsh pegged Garcia for this WCO, and that has been a wonderful kudo for this aging genius. But, the wide open, no-huddle offense that we saw last Sunday, the style of offense you (and many others) think is the 49ers future, is not the WCO that Ira Miller, Steve Young and Chad Pennington were discussing. Walsh obviously found a nifty QB in the CFL, who makes good decisions, reduces his errors and throws on the run better than Steve Young or Chad Pennington...but whose footwork isn't consistant, who needs passing lanes to see his receivers, and prefers moving out of the pocket. You see it...I see it...Garcia is better at Garcia Ball than he is at the WCO.

One Problem: hypothetically, lets say you practice the Garcia Ball offense all week, then Garica gets injured on the first series and is forced to miss the rest of the game...what then? Sure, you can say, "put in Rattay and go back to the WCO," but you have that luxury because the team has been coached in the WCO for months, even years. If Garcia Ball is the future, then the WCO won't be practiced next summer camp...or in 2004...

I don't think Mariucci or Knapp, Shanahan or Holmgren, Gruden or Willingham are going to abandon their WCO for a quarterback who doesn't fit well...that is why they look for QB's who fit their system every spring, rather than change their system with each QB. Garcia isn't the best fit and that is why he struggles, Walsh's blessings aside. The timing is off...ratings are down...Mariucci and Knapp are constrained by the limits of Garcia's timing and execution of the WCO.

You maybe right. Maybe it is time to move on from the WCO, and that would be fine with me as long as Garcia stays healthy. This isn't an argument. I am just realizing that the WCO isn't playing to Garcia's strength, and for continued success, to move on from this frustrating 2002 season, the 49ers either need to get a new offensive system, or get a quarterback who can excell in many things INCLUDING FOOTWORK and POCKET PASSING demanded by the WCO.

Subject: TANK - good points!


Author:
49ertothecore
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 18:52:34 01/08/03 Wed

TANK - you pose some great questions? We're between a rock and a hard place with Garcia and pure WCO. If the 49ers stick with Mooch and Garcia stays healthy, they need to try to develop some hybrid plan that doesn't destroy the system but is flexible enough for Garcia to thrive. The liklihood of Mooch or Garcia going anywhere anytime soon is unlikely so they have to find a happy medium. Mooch shouldn't have to be backed into a corner of desperation to change it up when it needs to be changed. I hope this past Sunday works like a "4x4" upside the head of Mooch & Knapp to realize what they have to work with and not resist it and get maximum effectiveness out of what they have!! By the way I wasn't arguing, I really enjoy and agree with most of what you have to say. I'm just a very practical person and if somthing isn't working then you need to find out why and fix it.

Subject: No way?


Author:
Norcal
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 19:38:00 01/08/03 Wed

Trevor:
Very interesting stuff on the way the Niners scheme their defense. My question to you would be: "Is this current scheme working?"

I'm not trying to bash the Niners. But you must admit that they get virtually no pressure on other teams QBs. Every single game someone is lighting them up. And those QBs sit back there untouched. If this scheme is to have the Tackles contain and the Ends to passrush, it ain't working at all.

One thing you said really surprised me. You said if stubby and B.Y. shurked their responsibility the defense would suffer. I have to laugh at that. What is the defense ranked right now, 29th? I'd hate to have it drop to 32nd. Although I bet it will if changes aren't coming next year.

Carter is a stud. no arguement there. Young is slowing down. Stubby in no way warrants what he is paid. And I'll say it again: Whatever the defensive plan, Okeafor and E-berg don't get pressure. If this scheme is to work the way you describe, it requires a lot from the defensive ends. Only Carter fits the bill. And he can't do it all alone.

Subject: Stuff


Author:
Win
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 19:43:20 01/08/03 Wed

TANK - My opinion, for what it's worth, is that Garcia wouldn't be nearly the QB he is today without the work that Mariucci and Knapp have put in with him. They ARE the right fit for each other.

Also, on the WCO, it is feet, but it's also brains and vision. Garcia happened to display all three on Sunday. Did you note how many quotes there were about how well Garcia moved around WITHIN the pocket, not just out of it?
Or the quotes about how well he checked through his receivers, especially on the critical fourth-down pass to Streets and then the go-ahead TD? And how, with only one or two exceptions, he made the best decision on every play over the last 20 minutes?

I've seen at least one article elsewhere that mentioned both Pennington and Maddox as prime examples of QBs who are displaying those same qualities this year, even though, as the writer put it, they couldn't throw the ball through a newspaper at forty feet -- same "problem" usually mentioned when people discussing Garcia.

Does Garcia "run the WCO" as smoothly or precisely as Montana at his best? Absolutely not. But he CAN run the WCO. The fact that he can run a no-huddle offense AS WELL, WHEN REQUIRED, should be considered a useful bonus option, NOT a mutually exclusive skill.

In an email to Uncle Kevin a few days ago, I said that there are times when I'm watching Garcia, during one of his more ungainly outings, when I feel like I'm staring at a fly on a pile of cowdung, but because it's a pile of cowdung that was deposited in front of me by my favorite uncle's prize milking cow, I feel obliged to figure out a reason to find it aesthetically pleasing.

Well, I think was Roger Phillips in the Oakland Tribune this week who casually tossed off a better analogy: he said that this 49ers team has "cockroach-like" survival instincts. And it all flows from Garcia. He may not look pretty out there, and some of his characteristics may annoy the hell out of some fans, but damned if he, and perhaps the team around him, don't look also like they could take over the world.

What happened Sunday should not just be looked at as a study in contrast between the apparently calm, efficient execution of the classic WCO and the frenetic success-through-chaos of a no-huddle offense. It should also be looked at as a question of balance: i.e. what happens when a team decides to abandon entirely the notion of handing off to a running back.

To me, the more important question has always been whether the offense is balanced, not whether it's boring or not. All season long, Mariucci has made a point of aiming for balance, because in the long run, it makes for the most versatile, unpredictable and ultimately successful offense.

Cockroach-like emphasis on balance against the Buccaneers is going to be key. One or both of our running backs MUST have a 100-yard day on the ground if we're going to beat them.

One last thing. I love Tony Parrish to bits, I'm thrilled he's on this team. But I couldn't help a smile when I was reading some article online this week where the writer was discussing non-QB, non-RB MVPs and he nominated Lance Schulters as the single most important player to his team, ahead of even Derrick Brooks.

Cockroaches. Schulters. OK, that's the checklist. I'm done.

GO NINERS!

Subject: Bryan


Author:
Rod
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 19:52:12 01/08/03 Wed

Way to go Bryan, Allen has been on my last nerve. His initial post was an obvious "bait" post. I responded and then he attacked my football IQ as well. I have delt with his type before and simply choose not to waste my time...Thanks for not making us even have to scroll past his posts.......Great admin.=Great board....Later

Subject: 49er Flight


Author:
jay
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 20:04:43 01/08/03 Wed

Anybody know when they are flying to Tampa? What airline do they use? THANKS J

Subject: TANK, 49erstotheore & Uncle Kevin


Author:
greg
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Date Posted: 20:51:19 01/08/03 Wed

TANK & Core & UK

I think the 49ers/Knapp/Mariucci should open it up for this ONE game (and the next if they beat Tampa) ... because the "Bill Walsh offense" holds Garcia back. That is the short term answer...isolated use. But, that is not the longterm answer.

You cannot run one system for one quarterback, and another for the rest of the quarterbacks. Lets face it, Rattay and Doman would struggle with Garcia Ball. I'm not sure about McNown, either. I think it is unique to Jeff Garcia's talents and skills. You can't ask the coordinator to plan and scheme the new and improved Garcia Ball system all offseason, practice it throughout summer camp, teach the new system to the line, backs and receivers...and then have the whole system blow up when Garcia gets injured.

If you do a system change, you need to get new coaches and new backup quarterbacks that have the neccessary skills. You probably dump Garrison Hearst, because as his 15 yards rushing showed, he isn't a Garcia Ball back. I don't know if Barlow fits, either. The 49ers might need someone more like Charlie Garner...the back when Garcia had a QB rating over 100.

With all due respect to TIM, I don't think he wants to see the "Bill Walsh offense" he wrote of on this forum last month. He wants to see no-huddle, Garcia Ball. I understand his frustration with Mariucci's WCO, but I think TANK makes an excellent point...Garcia doesn't have the footwork and pocket discipline to be consistant and efficient.

I read the Ira Miller column and was impressed by Chad Pennington's consistancy...eight games with QB ratings OVER 100, only one game below 93, 25 TD's and 4 INT's (Miller also mentioned that Pennington doesn't have a big, strong arm, just incredible accuracy, timing and footwork, and great decision making and poise - hence the Montana comparisions). Garcia has been coached and drilled in his footwork for four years, so don't expect him to change. I don't know is Bill Walsh, himself, could do make Garcia a more efficient WCO quarterback. You can't teach a 33 year old dog new tricks. Besides, Garcia excells in a different system and shouldn't be forced into the confines of the WCO.

As long as Garcia is the QB and Mariucci/Knapp's WCO is the system, fans are going to be disatisfied. Most fans think Mooch has to change. Very few think Garcia has to get better at the WCO (probably because he is so good at Garcia Ball). Like TIM, fans don't want to see improved WCO, they want to see the highly entertaining, wide open, heart racing Garcia Ball. While I admit that I love it too, I don't think it is in the best interest of the organization's longterm plans. I am not ready to abandon the current system just because the current QB struggles with it.

Donahue has a tough offseason decision: quietly be looking for a new WCO QBOTF, or find a new Garcia Ball coordinator. Unfortunately, I don't think he will do either, and this frustration will continue for as long as Garcia is the QB. As long as Donahue employes a WCO coach and coordinator, this will be the dilemma.

Subject: A tape of the Game


Author:
Jim Burke
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Date Posted: 22:06:03 01/08/03 Wed

If anyone has a copy of the Giants game and is willing to make a copy and ship it to me please let me know. You can e-mail me at jim_burke80@hotmail.com

Thanks

Subject: 9ers


Author:
Julie B.
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Date Posted: 22:42:58 01/08/03 Wed

jay - They fly out on a charter flight. One contact of mine says that they changed their schedule this year, but other contacts say that it hasn't changed, so I'm not sure what to tell you on the time....

Subject: Mariucci's job security


Author:
Miaum
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Date Posted: 22:45:27 01/08/03 Wed

Why does the media keep harping that Mooch is about to get the boot? I do not hear that from Donahue or York. The only question at hand is how much the extension will be worth and for how long. Can anyone tell me why the media continues to make this seem so sinister.

Subject: Back to reality


Author:
Buddy
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Date Posted: 22:57:37 01/08/03 Wed

Hello Gang,

Now that the excitement of the incredible win by the Niners has settled in a little bit more, I wanted to take a few minutes to take a step back to before the game and to most of the regular season.

Most of us have had our criticisms of Mooch or Garcia or both.

Before the Giants game, most of us were hoping to see the 9ers break from their predictable play calling and hoped for a passing game that spread the field a little bit more and included some deeper passes.

For nearly the entire first half and for the first series of the second half, I must say, that as far as I was concerned, I saw nothing that gave me hope that the coaches had stayed up late concocting a shrewd game plan that was going to suprise the Giants coaching staff.

On second and ten,early in the game,did anyone think that we might run the ball up the middle.WE DID!

On another series early in the game, when it was third and 10 or 12, did anyone think that we would end up throwing a pass, far short of a first down and end up having to punt.WE DID!

Then,on fourth and short we decide to go for it.Did anyone think that we might run Beasley up the gut.WE DID!

IF WE KNEW THESE THINGS, THEN SO DID THE GIANTS!

The point that I am trying to make is that if we didn't start getting our a$$es kicked, this game was going to be played darn near the same way that most of our other games were played.Holding on to win at the end or having the other team squeaking out a win at the end.

I think it was a blessing in disguise that we started getting our butts whipped.This forced both the coaches and Garcia to do what neither likes to do.Attack with a take no prisoners attitude.

I had to chuckle when I heard some people say that it was from brilliant coaching that we went to the hurry up offense.We had no choice but to go to it.By the way things ended, if we had waited 1 1/2 minutes longer than we did, we wouldn't have had the time to do what we did.

The players won this game.The coaches just needed to get out of the way.I am in no way saying that that there was no coaching involved in the last 20 minutes of the game, but it was coaching out of desperation, not a methodical, well contrived plan that had been worked on earlier in the week or earlier in the year for that matter.

With all this being said, I would like to add one more thing.When we had the ball for the final time, down by five, with about 3 minutes left,did anyone think that we were going to abandon the hurry up offense and try to churn out a ball control, time consuming drive, reminiscent of what we had attempted to do for most of the season.WE DIDN'T! and I commend Mariucci for that.

I only hope that Mooch has seen the light and realizes that he has gotten to the second round of the playoffs by NOT doing what he has been doing all season.

GO NINERS, LET'S ROLL

Subject: 9ers


Author:
Bryan - Admin
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Date Posted: 23:28:12 01/08/03 Wed


TIM - interesting point about the face mask

TANK - very interesting post

core - Thanks :)

UK - great point about the no huddle.

I have to say that I don't think Mooch will abandon his style this game. He'll use the no huddle, but it won't be his whole offense.

Tank - if Garcia had passing lanes to throw threw perhaps he would succeed even more so within the confines of the WCO.

core- really have to admire how the Falcons have fitted their system to Vick eh?

Norcal - great to hear from you!

hard to believe we need to draft defense again eh?

Win - great counter!

Rod - no problem :)

jay- I think they have a private jet, and they usually leave the Friday before a Sunday road game... am I correct all?

greg - interesting points there about the different talent the team would need to stick with Garcia ball... again though I have to ask, what if the OL could actually create throwing lanes for him.

Miaum - the short answer... they want a story.

Buddy - great point about Mooch not abandoning the hurry up for ball control with about 3 minutes left.


Subject: I AM GOING


Author:
Rod
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Date Posted: 00:49:07 01/09/03 Thu

Hey, ya know I kinda like the field we are giing to ((ie. bucks). The Stick is always soggy and in bad repair. I saw Kentucky at the Outback bowl a couple of years back there and have to say it is one nice vinue. Anyone that can go should........nicest I have ever been to..........OH YEA, I HAVE TICKETS...........I am going...a buddy of mine is a PA and some drug reps really want his business..............I am taking off from KY on Friday (he lives in Jacksonville) and hope to see a W. The field is perfect and I think our 9ers are ready......I will give you guys the atmosphere perspective after the game (after we DEFLATE the bucks).............Later

Subject: Garcia And Walsh


Author:
Anthony49
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Date Posted: 01:12:44 01/09/03 Thu

Win And Kevin,

My two favorite gentleman posting within minutes of eachother! Mamma mia!

Thought you two blokes might enjoy these recent quotes from Bill Walsh.

"I couldn't have said that we were okay," Walsh said, "But Jeff just did it. All I keep hearing about is Michael Vick, but right now, I'd say that Jeff Garcia is the best quarterback in the league."

And:

Greatest 49er comeback ever?
"It's as great a game as we've ever had,' said Bill Walsh, original architect of the 49er dynasty, now a team adviser. "Some games we had, the stakes were higher, Super Bowls, but this one ranks as high as it comes."
For Garcia, who was salvaged from the Canadian Football League and brought to the 49ers as a backup at Walsh's urging, Walsh kicked out the compliment jams.
"When has Joe (Montana) played a better game? When has Steve (Young) played a better game? Games with bigger stakes, yes. But a better game?"

Pretty interesting quotes, eh? ;-)

But then again, Walsh has always said very favorable things about one of his most recent gem out of nowhere picks.

I'm just curious why people are wondering how well Jeff Garcia can and does work within a WCO framework when the major instituter of the WCO, Bill Walsh, speaks extremely favorably about him.

I think one point about footwork should be made -- unorthodox as Garcia's flailing can be, when he is on, like he was for all of 2001, his timing is actually exceptionally good -- one of the main reasons he can compensate for average arm strength, and one of the main reasons he ahd more 20+ yard plays than anybody in the NFL that year.

Why 2002 was more disappointing, well, you can point at any number of things. Garcia wasn't as good, Hearst has clearly lost a step, the OL play has been less consistent, the RB rotation I feel keeps both our backs out of rhythm (i wish Barlow would start), and Knapp's play-calling hasn't exactly been unpredictable.

Lumping it all onto Garcia, or much of it onto Garcia, seems a touch farfetched to me.

And after the performance he had last sunday, i'm surprised to see any criticism of him at all. As monumental as the Giants collapse was, let's give credit where credit is due -- there is no way the 9'ers win that game with Jeff Garcia and his awe-inspiring performance out there.

Just my .02. :-)

Subject: A quote from Buddy - the 49ers motto


Author:
16to80
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Date Posted: 01:21:44 01/09/03 Thu

"Holding on to win at the end or having the other team squeaking out a win at the end."

Subject: Win


Author:
Anthony49
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Date Posted: 01:47:45 01/09/03 Thu

Win!

love the cockroach analogy, lol!

re: Schulters

Why, you'd be referring to Gregg Easterbrook, "Tuesday Morning Quarterback", my absolute favorite sports columnist -- if there is any must-read out there, it is TMQ for me, conveniently, every tuesday morning.

I agree about Schulters' impact on Tennessee -- he's been a great pickup for them. I do miss Lance, but Tony Parrish is everything I've ever wanted in a safety, so it's hard to say it didn't work best for both teams.

Can you imagine how good our defense might have performed if it had Bronson and Parrish playing all 17 games together?

Not to mention, Winborn ...

Final thought for the night:

There are a couple of players that this ballclub **ABSOLUTELY CANNOT AFFORD TO LOSE** in the next 5-7 years. (I'd include Garcia in this list, but his timeline is already set out, and he could be gone in 3-4)

Andre Carter

Terrell Owens

Julian Peterson

Ahmed Plummer

(Plummer's recent groin-inspired performance notwithstanding).

I want to see Donahue sign these players to extensions ****************NOW******************, and not when they are eligible for UFA.

That would be a disaster.

Follow the Eagles' lead, and sign your crucial players to longterm extensions before they reach UFA.

Subject: Doh, I lied, One more comment


Author:
Anthony49
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Date Posted: 01:56:48 01/09/03 Thu

Kevin!

Great post about the no-huddle offense.

I completely agree, that trying to establish some kind of no-huddle offense as a permanent thing would be ridiculous.

The one thing that confuses me is why people think Garcia's success with the no-huddle offense would somehow preclude him from being a successful WCO QB.

It's not like he hasn't been ... the last 3 years. The No-huddle is an interesting wrinkle, but certainly not a long-term staple of the 49'er offense. As long as we have the current GM and Walshites abound, this team isn't going to change its ways.

(thank the football gods for that!) :-)

Subject: anyone tape the game?


Author:
Travis
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Date Posted: 02:46:01 01/09/03 Thu

Did anyone happen to tape Sunday's game against the Giants? My dad's VCR somehow didn't tape the game, and I'm devastated! Especially after reading online about this epic game.
If you did tape it, would you be willing to send a copy down to L.A.? I'm more than willing to pay you for shipping, cost of tape, etc. Thanks!

Subject: Opening it up.


Author:
Uncle Kevin
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Date Posted: 16:52:50 01/09/03 Thu

Anthony!

It must be the playoffs...you're getting chatty.

No criticism of Garcia from me this week. But I thought I did give credit where it was due when I credited Owens.

The Giants packed it in...thought they'd won... thought the game was over... stopped playing after their first score in the second half. Shame on them.

Mora stopped being cute and finally switched our defensive scheme to one the players on the field understood and felt comfortable playing in the second half. About Freakin' time!

Even with his stupid late game penalty that could have cost us the game...Owens had what I thought was his best game as a pro (and he's had some pretty good games before). He wouldn't let the offense quit, even if he had to do it all by himself (as he often did). And I think he got Streets and Johnson juiced. And once the offense showed that they were not done...the defense decided to...as Seifert used to say; "Swell Up."

I think you're right. Take away one specific player and there's no way the Niners win that game. But I don't think that player was Garcia. (Just my 2 cents)

Looking ahead ot the Tampa game...and you know what's coming...I think we have to run the ball if we're gonna have any chance in this game.

But here's the thing. I think we have to open the running game up.

The big question is...can we?

I'm not doubting Hearst, Barlow or Beasley. I think they are a hell of a stable.

But with all the substitutions and injuries on the offensive line...I think our run blocking has become too limited.

From Deese to Heitmann to Stone, to Gragg...we've got noone who traps worth a damn. Neither of our Guards pull well and the only guy with a decent "L" step is Stone.

We play B.O.B. well...but this week we'll be playing B.O.W.D. (Big On Whirrling Dervish) and that makes me nervous.

Man I miss Ray Brown.

Subject: No-Huddle, WCO, Walsh


Author:
TANK
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Date Posted: 17:17:37 01/09/03 Thu

Anthony49, Win, greg, others:

1. I don't think the "Garcia Ball" vs. WCO discussion should be interpreted as criticism of Garcia. Despite references to cowdung and cockroaches, the overall consensus is that Garcia's performance in the final 20 minutes of Sunday's game was an incredible performance. It was the lackluster execution of the first 40 minutes that causes concern. The contrast illustrated he is average at one scheme, and great at the other. That is fact, not a criticism.

2. I don't think that the no-huddle and West Coast offeses are mutually exclusive, but I am smart enough to know they aren't the same. Yes, Garcia can do both, but not with the same efficiency. Garcia struggles in the pocket. With all due respect to Bill Walsh, Garcia is not the "best WCO quarterback" in the league. I think Rich Gannon owns that title, and Chad Pennington is staking his future claim to it as we speak.

I have more trust in Bill Walsh (or, as Win would say, "my favorite uncle's prize milking cow") than any other mind in the 49ers organization. I also know he likes to toot his own horn a bit. In suggesting that Garcia is the best in the NFL, Walsh is patting himself on the back because he "deposited" him on the 49ers. Lets not forget that Walsh also deposited Steve Stenstrom, Gio Carmazzi, and depending on whether or not you believe Dwight Clark and Carmen Policy, the biggest cowdung - Jim Drukenmiller. Just because the milking cow makes a deposit, it doesn't mean it is the best deposit or last desposit to lead this team. I the deposit struggles, ask for a new desposit. Never settle. Always improve. Whether it is Garcia or Mariucci, always look to improve your cowdung.

Undertand?

3. I disagree with those who say Jeff Garcia is very good in the WCO. I know, I know, Jeff is a three time Pro Bowler with back-to-back 30+ touchdown seasons prior to this year. But, he struggles in the pocket and his timing is getting worse, not better. Ask yourself, where are the famous WCO slants? Where are the WCO outs? Where is the WCO tight end deep over the middle? I am only speculating, but I would guess that most of Garcia's TD's come when he rolls out to the right, or after the play breaks down, and not on the classic WCO three step drop, or five step drop. The Ira Miller article about footwork explained to me why Garica can't master the WCO. Yes he makes good decisions, and has nice mobility, but that wasn't the point. As Walsh says in his book, and Steve Young said in the article, the feet are the timing and timing is the foundation of the WCO. Mobility and good decision making are advantageous skills, but they aren't fundamental to success in the WCO.

4. The problem with Garcia's unorthodox and declining WCO performances is that the offense happens to be the system the franchise is built on, practices and uses 95% of the time. I read forum fans and hear talk show know-it-alls suggesting that the no-huddle offense should be 50%-100% of the gameplan for the game agaisnt Tampa Bay. I think many of these fans of "Garcia Ball," as greg calls it, would prefer to see the no-huddle game in, game out, from week to week, from the first snap to the final whistle.

I understand this impulse, because it is obvious to me that Garcia is explosive in this wide open, CFL-like system. Without Garcia Ball the Niners lose to the Giants last Sunday. But, I have a concern that it cannot be successful as our base offense, and I know the malcontents will continue to complain about Mariucci and play calling as long as Garcia is forced to play within the confines of the WCO the majority of the time. Even I think I would grow frustrated with this schizophrenic game plan because I suspect it would result in disappointment as often as success.

Refer back to the beginning of the Green Bay game earlier this year. The 49ers came out in the first quarter with the no-huddle, and it failed. Refer back to the Philadelphia game on MNF...the team went to the no-huddle, and it failed.

We were fortunate last Sunday...but I think it was the exception when you play teams of this caliber. There is no way it should be the foundation of a new system.

5. When TIM talks about Mariucci, I can appreciate the fact that all he really wants is for the team to not get complacent and always try to get better...don't settle for an average coach. I agree. The place that TIM and I part ways is that I actually think Mooch is a top 5 NFL coach and a better HC option isn't available (but, a better OC is not out of the question). I would support a change from Mooch if they got great compensation and had a comparable coach in mind to replace him. I would be furious if he got away without gaining great draft picks. That would be like letting Terrell Owens get away as a free agent, with nothing in return. With first round draft picks and a comparable coach, the 49ers would actually come out ahead (see the 2002 Raiders).

I think this same desire to always get better should apply to every position. If Jake Plummer is an improvement over Garcia, try to sign him. If Webster or Plummer aren't the shutdown CB we need, then look for one. If Deese or Okeafor are being dominated...then upgrade. Do everything possible to advance this team to a Super Bowl title and second dynasty. Don't be content with any player just because Walsh signed/drafted him and the guy is getting by. I didn't like the offense I saw this season. I don't blame Garcia entirely...Icontinue to blame an OL that is often physically dominated, having a possession receiver instead of big play threat at #2WR and TE, and the sporadic running game. Mariucci gets blame for not utilizing Barlow better and some poor clock management. Knapp gets blamed for predictability. Garcia gets blamed for stretches of poor play...there was an undeniable dropoff in his play, and he would be the first to admit it. The chemistry of this offense is complex, and many reasons contribute to the decline in points scored (and games won). Win or lose this coming Sunday, there is need for honest appraisal and much work to be done.

Subject: Kevin!!!!!!!!!!!!


Author:
Anthony49
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Date Posted: 17:20:44 01/09/03 Thu

Chatty, or catty? ;-)

re: Owens

Absolutely, his best game ... and yet, what was up with the penalities at the end?

Granted, Shaun Williams deserved it. But it's not a chance worth taking.

Luckily the Giants are even bigger hotheads.

And shame on them for giving up like they did, yes, but that is still one half of the equation -- I'll just side with the silver-haired genius on this one and say that Jeff had a phenomenal game. ;-)

Moving on to Tampa --

Jumping pogo sticks, Batman! We ABSOLUTELY MUST run against Tampa, I agree 100%.

If we come out with some obnoxious no huddle attack from the get go, we'll have to call in a couple of ambulances for our players.

'Booger' is out, so we have to attack the middle. I don't want Hearst in there. I want to see Barlow pound it in behind Newberry and Stone. And I want to see the 9'ers commit to this running game.

Early and often!

RUN THE BALL, BABY!

I think we can wear down Tampa, and take this game, provided there are no ST's gaffes (gulp) or turnovers, 21-17.

Moreover, with Brad Johnson as rusty as he is, and with the bad back, he can be rattled easily with hits. I want to see Brad Johnson take plenty of (nice, clean) BRUTAL HITS. I think Johnson can give us a rusty turnover or two. And that might be all the 9'ers need, as long as they take care of the ball.

I think the 9'ers can take this game! It's certainly everything you'd like in a divisional game on the road when you're the underdog coming in -- Tampa Bay has serious questions on offense, has had some time off, is likely overconfident, and has a couple of chinks in the armor that can be exploited.

Throw their miserable post-season history into the mix, and I'm liking the chances.

9'ers 21, Tampa bay 17

This is, provided, the 9'ers play clean, mistake-free football and run the flingin' ball. :-)

Subject: NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Author:
Anthony49
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Date Posted: 17:36:03 01/09/03 Thu

Rats!!!!!!!!

Tank,

I just wrote a long response to you.

Trust that it was brilliant and eye-opening.

And yet, sadly lost to the ages.

Alas!

Parting is such sweet sorrow, dear post.

I even had a comment to Kevin in there about how much I missed Charlie Garner and wished he was a 9'er now, and how i think it was a major mistake to not resign him.

In the immortal words of Steve Mariucci ...

"Bummer."

Subject: 9ers


Author:
Bryan - Admin
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Date Posted: 18:25:58 01/09/03 Thu


Rod - have a great trip!

Anthony - sometimes I wonder if Walsh just wants to be in spotlight? THat's not to say I agree or disagree just that he's making some bold statements...


What about Bronson, Parrish and Schulters playing a 3-4 scheme with Parrish playing a little LB?

I agree about your future assesments.

Travis - check the archives, someone has taped it.

UK - Owens one drop on the goal line hurt to see... but it was an amazing performance.

Tank - great post. But again, if our OL opened up lanes to throw through maybe Garcia would be fine in the pocket


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